Do you think PVP can be successful ?

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

5 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Maybe it is time for those moon clans to get some organization going then. Why be a moon clan with only 40 members? That would be a benefit of the system, getting clans to have a reason to actually be organized. I really dont care how it ends up though aslong as I'm able to just ignore it. I wont set my foot in PvP if it isnt supported by dedicated servers, which just wont be a thing in WF. Which mean WF PvP will forever be a joke.

So, let me get this straight. Your only problem with PvP in Warframe is that it doesn't have dedicated servers?

[Felsagger]

The reason that a competitive community exists in Warframe is enough for more dedicated game types in PVP. Include the basic ones with balancing on certain warframes that are easy to balance for PvP. Other game types like Lunaro, Capture the flag, free for all, versus defense, versus capture or the typical ones that exist within this game. More complex projects like that involves a Rail is way too much as other mention. 

There are funny ones like 'dog days'. A passive PVP where the one with more points wins was a good friendly idea. Many of these PVP types does not need to have rewards. if you add them then the less fortunate gets more crippled or submerged in a disadvantage. In my opinion equal conditions for all players should be a most for the success of the PVP community. For me, on the PS4 would be great if we have dedicated servers and a lobby. The idea of no rewards is adequate for the PVP community. The ones who enjoys this are the ones who really like PVP as it is. 

Those are my two cents on it. The community needs attention and DE should notice that many of us still play War Frame because of the competitive module in the game. If this gets the right fix, the game attracts more people from other PVP. Certain PVPs can restrict speed and the Genji behavior. It's no fun shooting Sonic's the Hedgehog on a match. Aiming is intensive and way too demanding. No one is Kephrii here so some regulations could invite new players. 

Match making average will be the next stage if this community grows so the disparity in talent reduces finding a perfect match for the player. 

[SneakyErvin]

1 minute ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

So, let me get this straight. Your only problem with PvP in Warframe is that it doesn't have dedicated servers?

It is the main problem. The movement (in PvP) doesnt appeal to me either.

I think one of the first things I said in this thread was that no, pvp wont be successful because it doesnt have dedicated servers. I've had other ideas posted on these forums regarding other types of PvP, more back to basic things, like a Battlefield inspired mode between corpus and grineer. But I come to the same conclussion even in my own ideas, it wont work in the end because we dont have dedicated servers.

In an 8 player game you have a snowball's chance in Surt's ass that all 7 clients will have a good connection to the host.

And I'm talking real dedicated servers here, not something set up by a player that may or may not be a dedicated toaster with a shoestring and two cups as the internet connection. Real things so we can decide to queue on a german, brittish, dutch, central/east/west US server or something along those lines when we wanna PvP. Like in OW where I simply chose EU from a scroll list and I'm always guaranteed optimal ping and this an optimal, competative and even gameplay experience.

[SneakyErvin]

9 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

For me, on the PS4 would be great if we have dedicated servers and a lobby. 

Sadly that will never be a thing. DE have already said that when the option came for PC players to host, the consoles have a different architecture so it wont be possible there. So no matter what they add as PvP modes, console will always have the back to the future experience by using mid 90's multiplayer technology that now is barely even used at LAN parties.

edit: And you nail the reason why PvP wont be successful here.

Quote

 In my opinion equal conditions for all players should be a most for the success of the PVP community.

That is why I stress it time and time again, we need actual dedicated servers so everyone in a match has the same conditions as others.

Edited May 21, 2020 by SneakyErvin

[Aldain]

31 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

But it wasnt fun, the difference was too much.

That's the general issue with any high skill floor PvP, it shouldn't be surprising that it drives people off in droves.

Games like that then only have a very small dedicated base who stomp the everloving daylights out of any new players, cementing the very low playerbase.

My bigger question is why anybody is surprised that such a thing doesn't attract a playerbase, the reason is pretty obvious even to the casual observer.

[Felsagger]

24 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

I FOUND a match 2 days ago... oh boy... let me tell you my experience. It wasnt a fun one.

The host was insane, capable of seeing me from the #*!%ing high ground, even if I was just looking at him fighting another dude.

(This happens when the player is not aware of the panoptic positions of the map. Map knowledge is fundamental)

He was able to do aimglide CIRCLES around me. Literally.

(This happens when the opponent player practiced aiming while flying and jumping. These are called jump shots. Window of attack is mid air. Hard to hit, hard to see.)

I got him by surpise? He would do some crazy bulletjump spin and roll in the air and kill me before I could track him.

(This happens when the opponent player understands his kit of maneuver and counter measures. PVP players understand when to attack and when to retreat.)

I shot him 10 times with my Braton and he would have time to react and kill me...

(This happens when the opponent player knows precisely the meta for his game play style. He can tank or absorb damage while he delivers the fatal blow.)

Melee attacks would hit but then he would kill me using 1 combo while I was hitting him for 1 full second before he could start...

(This player mastered a combo that minimize risks of exposure and maximize damage in the delivery. This player understands how to tank and deliver damage.)

Many times I would run. But he would be right on my tail not matter how crazy manuvers I did or how random.

(The difference of movement skills is obvious. He practices parkour to the extreme. He understands wall jumping, sliding, wall hopping and wall picking to perfection. His mobility is oriented towards high mobile targets. The time of exposition is way shorter than other common PVP.)

I'm... unsure if it was lag, skill or a combination of both.

(PVP players are compulsive obsessive with lag, latency and  frame rate. If your game is running at a smooth 120 frame rate per second your precision increases. If there is lag your precision decreases. PC capability and internet services are FUNDAMENTAL)

But it wasnt fun, the difference was too much.

(You are not used to this type of demand. PVP demands skill, wits, PC hardware, gear knowledge, meta knowledge, utility knowledge to the extreme detail)

If this is what players who try PvP find... I can see why no one plays it. Either not matches or just get completly destroyed.

(You are not exposed to this environment because such environment has a tough list of requisites that not everybody likes to address.)

No one likes to get owned. 

 

The cruelty of PVP is that such activity demands IQ, full brain functionality and no impairment of any kind. It is a strict survival of the fittest. This is why many dislike PVP in War Frame. Don't get me wrong about the exclusion of impaired players. Impairment is not a barrier because many people with impairments managed to be exceptional players. Why? They developed a game play style that helps them survive in the game or perform at a moderate level. 

 

No one likes to get taunted. 

 

Yes, this is the toxic part about PVP. People loves to taunt. Some discipline is required but the T bag is inevitable. This is the tradition and folklore of the PVP player. We are bone collectors. This is part of the profession. This is the psychology of competition and of course PVP IS A SPORT. 

 

How do I know this? I get my butt served. However I serve too. ^^

Experience is the key on this. Strict experience. MR worth nothing in here. Your brain is your weapon for PVP. 

 

[Felsagger]

18 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Sadly that will never be a thing. DE have already said that when the option came for PC players to host, the consoles have a different architecture so it wont be possible there. So no matter what they add as PvP modes, console will always have the back to the future experience by using mid 90's multiplayer technology that now is barely even used at LAN parties.

We need to become a community and demand options for us in our respective platforms. We have to organize ourselves and tell DE that PVP matters. If we do not do this then DE will probably take out this portion of the game. 

 

[SneakyErvin]

5 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

We need to become a community and demand options for us in our respective platforms. We have to organize ourselves and tell DE that PVP matters. If we do not do this then DE will probably take out this portion of the game. 

I'd be more fine with having it removed since I dont think it matters as a mode in this specific game. I rather demand things for the PvE part, which is the whole reason I picked up WF to begin with. I have PvP games to play when I feel like I need that fix.

[Felsagger]

23 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I'd be more fine with having it removed since I dont think it matters as a mode in this specific game. I rather demand things for the PvE part, which is the whole reason I picked up WF to begin with. I have PvP games to play when I feel like I need that fix.

 

Yes, you feel comfortable with this because you don't use this feature. 

 

How about the rest of us?

 

I'm not that selfish. I think that all communities deserves a place in this game. Not everybody has money for few other PVP games. 

 

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

5 minutes ago, Aldain said:

That's the general issue with any high skill floor PvP, it shouldn't be surprising that it drives people off in droves.

Games like that then only have a very small dedicated base who stomp the everloving daylights out of any new players, cementing the very low playerbase.

My bigger question is why anybody is surprised that such a thing doesn't attract a playerbase, the reason is pretty obvious even to the casual observer.

I'm not sure if I'd say this is being surprised of the low playerbase, but there are definitely a couple of disappointments around that. The first is that the game hardly encourages use of many of the skills that are major in PvP. Even in a general sense, the game has this certain movement system which is hardly necessary to use to much of an extent, and often not rewarding to use to its fullest extent. (The speed would be much more worthwhile, if waiting for other players wasn't as much of a thing.) Similar goes for offensive and defensive mechanics as well, like blocking and hitting headshots. The other thing is ease of choices in PvP. There are some really broken ones, which people use, but there are plenty of alternatives, which go mostly untouched. A weapon with a high magazine capacity or some AOE can go a long way in making people easier to kill, even though those weapons are not considered particularly strong.

When I was finally grinding for typhoon rank, I already had both of those things, since I was a pre-rework Oberon main and Ogris was one of my main weapons in PvE. Neither of those were considered particularly good in PvP, but through using Oberon I learned how to kill while moving and stuff, since I couldn't nuke or face tank like other frames. At that point, it wasn't hard for me to kill with even something like Euphona Prime, but partly because of how much I used it in PvE, Ogris was the weapon I could use most effectively. There wasn't anything super broken to use nor worry about other people using, so it just came down to using and adapting what I learned in PvE. To this day, Oberon and Ogris could still be considered my main specialties, through all of their changes.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

1 hour ago, Kaotyke said:

shot him 10 times with my Braton and he would have time to react and kill me...

Melee attacks would hit but then he would kill me using 1 combo while I was hitting him for 1 full second before he could start...

This can probably be attributed to shield gating for the most part. After your shield is broken from full, you get ~1.3 seconds of invulnerability, but damage numbers still show up instead of 0s, giving the illusion that you’re still doing damage. As for the melee, was it a mire perhaps?
 

as for the rest, yes, some people are insanely good. Which is why a ranking system would be appreciated (come on DE).

[SneakyErvin]

58 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

 

Yes, you feel comfortable with this because you don't use this feature. 

 

How about the rest of us?

 

I'm not that selfish. I think that all communities deserves a place in this game. Not everybody has money for few other PVP games. 

 

At that point I'd settle with what I have, like I do in other games where I might be a small minority.

[-BG-StormFighter117]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

If the system has zero impact on those that dont wanna use it you can have it all you want. That would mean it would have PvP related rewards only to make that part of the game have its own progression with zero connection to PvE. Unless they wanna branch over some parts so it is obtainable from both.

Lets say they add both DS-PvP and DS-Faction PvE. PvP part pins clans versus clans (ghost vs ghost, mountain vs mountain etc.) while the other is just an evolution of Invasions more or less but uses the same system as the PvP part. Special boss mobs instead of players, much like how index works. PvE would likely be better for farming rewards, but the PvP is a reward in itself since you can boast your victories aswell over other clans.

I like your open minded ideas!!! Repo mentions about the sizes so I won’t repeat.

keeping PvP and PvE separate is what I feel is the plan. However, for Dark Sectors the PvP side of things won’t be purely PvP. There will be many AI in the PvP mission. Think of it as a moba where it’s pvp but you have to destroy minions, towers, or boss mobs. Finding the right medium is key.

[-BG-MagicalAbyss]

4 hours ago, Kaotyke said:

I FOUND a match 2 days ago... oh boy... let me tell you my experience. It wasnt a fun one.

The host was insane, capable of seeing me from the #*!%ing high ground, even if I was just looking at him fighting another dude.

He was able to do aimglide CIRCLES around me. Literally.

I got him by surpise? He would do some crazy bulletjump spin and roll in the air and kill me before I could track him.

I shot him 10 times with my Braton and he would have time to react and kill me...

Melee attacks would hit but then he would kill me using 1 combo while I was hitting him for 1 full second before he could start...

Many times I would run. But he would be right on my tail not matter how crazy manuvers I did or how random.

I'm... unsure if it was lag, skill or a combination of both.

But it wasnt fun, the difference was too much.

If this is what players who try PvP find... I can see why no one plays it. Either not matches or just get completly destroyed.

Basically that is the same experience for most tenno who never touch PVP. In PVE, you never fully use you movement and skills, while having insane power to kill everything on sight without effort, and suddenly you facing an entity that is on the same par in term of power, you can see the huge difference in skills like you just experience.

You can agree with me that many tenno want challenging contents, now imagine if we can bring PVP experiences into PVE....... Dark Sector

[Felsagger]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

At that point I'd settle with what I have, like I do in other games where I might be a small minority.

 

Why you are here in this tread talking about PVP when you want the feature out of WarFrame? 

[Felsagger]

1 hour ago, -BG-MagicalAbyss said:

Basically that is the same experience for most tenno who never touch PVP. In PVE, you never fully use you movement and skills, while having insane power to kill everything on sight without effort, and suddenly you facing an entity that is on the same par in term of power, you can see the huge difference in skills like you just experience.

You can agree with me that many tenno want challenging contents, now imagine if we can bring PVP experiences into PVE....... Dark Sector

 

 

I can't agree with this even more. 

 

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, Felsagger said:

Why you are here in this tread talking about PVP when you want the feature out of WarFrame? 

<Looks at thread title>

<Wonders what Felsagger is on about>

3 hours ago, -BG-StormFighter117 said:

I like your open minded ideas!!! Repo mentions about the sizes so I won’t repeat.

keeping PvP and PvE separate is what I feel is the plan. However, for Dark Sectors the PvP side of things won’t be purely PvP. There will be many AI in the PvP mission. Think of it as a moba where it’s pvp but you have to destroy minions, towers, or boss mobs. Finding the right medium is key.

Why did they ever change it from pure PvE to PvP to begin with? That is the part I dont get. Was it during one of their "oh we wanna be like that game" periods, like how Lunaro spawned due to Rocket League being popular? Thank the gods they never went onboard the BR train when it was the most popular thing out there.

[Felsagger]

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

<Looks at thread title>

<Wonders what Felsagger is on about>

 

I'm going to make it more academic. 

 

What can you contribute to the subject if you don't like, you don't play and you want to get rid of  PVP in Warframe? 

 

 

[Sevek7]

7 hours ago, Kaotyke said:

I FOUND a match 2 days ago... oh boy... let me tell you my experience. It wasnt a fun one.

The host was insane, capable of seeing me from the #*!%ing high ground, even if I was just looking at him fighting another dude.

He was able to do aimglide CIRCLES around me. Literally.

I got him by surpise? He would do some crazy bulletjump spin and roll in the air and kill me before I could track him.

I shot him 10 times with my Braton and he would have time to react and kill me...

Melee attacks would hit but then he would kill me using 1 combo while I was hitting him for 1 full second before he could start...

Many times I would run. But he would be right on my tail not matter how crazy manuvers I did or how random.

I'm... unsure if it was lag, skill or a combination of both.

But it wasnt fun, the difference was too much.

If this is what players who try PvP find... I can see why no one plays it. Either not matches or just get completly destroyed.

I'm sorry your didn't enjoy your experience so far. Generally, the entire PvE game can be done without using the mobility system at all, so it's understandable that you witnessed some different mobility skills when trying conclave. Efficiently using bullet jumps, rolls (notably side rolls), backflips, aim gliding while sliding sideways, slide melee to change direction in mid air, etc... are all very useful skills in conclave that serve no purpose in PvE. Typically, when a new player joins conclave, their movements (including bullet jumps, and attempting to make the movements random) are extremely predictable to someone who has practiced against tenno. 

Another thing to keep in mind is that since conclave play is so mobile, standing still means your aim is going to be far better than everyone else's. So everyone keeps an eye out for people who stand still, because they are the most dangerous player in that moment. So if you stand still, you will notice that everyone begins targeting you because you're dangerous! 

Ultimately, when it comes to any PvP game, we should not expect to be successful on the first try (I certainly wasn't!). If your expectation is to have a similar success rate as the PvE game, then I think PvP in general is not for you.

With all that being said, there are a large number of exploitable bugs at the moment in conclave. The person you were playing against may have been abusing these bugs. Some melee weapons are totally overpowered, which may be what resulted in your experience with dying to 1 combo. Some ranged weapons also got an absurd boost lately (tigris prime got nearly a 8x damage boost!) so watch out for certain weapons that seem too strong to be true.

[SneakyErvin]

35 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

I'm going to make it more academic. 

What can you contribute to the subject if you don't like, you don't play and you want to get rid of  PVP in Warframe? 

Stating the things that would be needed in order for it to ever have a chance and not just be seen as a joke. Things that in reality will never be implemented, so there is no chance for PvP to be successful. Even you want that for console, which you even expressed in this very thread. The people here that are under the imagination that a reworked PvP system would be enough to attract PvPers to come to the game ignore the fundamental part which is the server structure. No one will seek this game out for the PvP if it never gets dedicated servers. Stability and performance is A and O for most PvP players. There is a reason why PUBG got overshadowned first by FNBR, then by CoD, then a third time by Apex Legends, the reason was that PUBG had (and probably still has) S#&amp;&#036; performance and other technical issues that the others dont.

I get it that casual PvPers wont care, hence why we have these threads and people claiming P2P is "good enough" for WF. But if the game is to ever attract people to join WF because of the PvP it has, it damn better get the foundation and proper support in order for it to not just be seen as a joke after people try it. Servers being the first step.

[Felsagger]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Stating the things that would be needed in order for it to ever have a chance and not just be seen as a joke. Things that in reality will never be implemented, so there is no chance for PvP to be successful. Even you want that for console, which you even expressed in this very thread. The people here that are under the imagination that a reworked PvP system would be enough to attract PvPers to come to the game ignore the fundamental part which is the server structure. No one will seek this game out for the PvP if it never gets dedicated servers. Stability and performance is A and O for most PvP players. There is a reason why PUBG got overshadowned first by FNBR, then by CoD, then a third time by Apex Legends, the reason was that PUBG had (and probably still has) S#&amp;&#036; performance and other technical issues that the others dont.

I get it that casual PvPers wont care, hence why we have these threads and people claiming P2P is "good enough" for WF. But if the game is to ever attract people to join WF because of the PvP it has, it damn better get the foundation and proper support in order for it to not just be seen as a joke after people try it. Servers being the first step.

 

 

How can you formulate such opinion when you have ZERO experience about it? 

 

This is the same as asking an architect for the design of a structure when such job belongs to a structural engineer. 

 

How could you tell that PvP here is a joke? Wait, have you tried it? 

 

Wait, and this gets better, to boot you call us ignorant? So you think that we are fantasizing when we ask for a PVP rework?

 

 

MANG, stop trollin'.....lmao....

[Aseraan]

Sure it can be but it needs improvements De currently  isnt makingXD

 

We could place Ai palyers in for starters like in Index idk why it isnt a thing.

I would  honestly play it than. You start a match game starts and as it goes on ppl can join in and replace ai players or idk  if u have  some number of fix players the rest spots gets filled  whit ai lot of the problems i hear is always how  matchmaking  doesnt work cuznoone palys it.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

12 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

That would be 2000 times since it takes 8 people

Wrong- 

If you ever did a raid, 8 people is more of a suggestion. You can do it with a minimum of four, upto 8 people. The number is still accurate as upto 16,000 people did the raid. 

Don't bother me unless you know what you are talking about. Thanks, Bye!

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

11 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I'd be more fine with having it removed 

Everyone here has stated your opinion means nothing btw. People might care about what you have say after you play conclave a single time. 

[(PSN)Akuma_Asura_]

21 hours ago, -BG-MagicalAbyss said:

In short, yes!

PVP can be successful along side with PVE even if it is warframe's core focus, what better than 1 option? More options! Feeling that content drought hit deep into you? Well try PVPVE, indirect PVP where tenno can compete within PVE environment. Or just go straight into direct PVP actions. Not only you can play those while waiting for new contents in PVE, those exist as options to enjoy warframe.

Just giving out example here, you are not force or required to do PVP contents to progress, having more options within a game always better than none. Now imagine full on PVP/PVPVE between clan and alliance, not only will it bring in more tenno, it make clan and alliance to have a better purpose, thus more contents/options for player to enjoy warframe.

So refreshing, I completely agree with everything said in this post. PVP doesn’t have to take away from PVE, instead it should compliment it by giving players an alternative when the drought is rough or you are just bored of the core gameplay.