Do you think PVP can be successful ?

[Felsagger]

1 hour ago, (XB1)The Neko Otaku said:

Apparently one person = everyone now

That's inaccurate. More than 12 individuals debunked SneakyErvin claims. This is not abusive, derogatory, bullying or harsh. We want people who honestly support the mode. If it considered dead by many it doesn't matter much to us. Why? Because we are still interested in it and see potential of a serious PvP in this game. THERE IS a portion of players who likes this feature in the game. We want it to grow. With all due respect If you are not interested, well, you don't have to play it or post in this thread. Don't sabotage our place for discussion. We want to make people interested in it. 

[(XBOX)The Neko Otaku]

10 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

 Don't sabotage our place for discussion. We want to make people interested in it. 

You could hide that fact you're trying to make this thread an echo chamber better, plugging your ears to criticism will always wind up as a stupid move. Conclave is a dead mode and resources will be wasted on anything that's not being shifted over to pve

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

Just now, (XB1)The Neko Otaku said:

You could hide that fact you're trying to make this thread an echo chamber better, plugging your ears to criticism will always wind up as a stupid move. Conclave is a dead mode and resources will be wasted on anything that's not being shifted over to pve

Except that a moderator commented about Marvin not saying anything constructive.

You are projecting here. Do you know what projecting means? It means that you are accusing Felsagger of wanting an echo chamber, when that's exactly what you want.

You want PvP dead, just like Marvin. You want an echo chamber.

Funny how you ignored my response to you. If PvP isn't your thing, how about you ignore this thread entirely, as PvP doesn't apply to you. Now, go be honest and stop projecting. Actually give decent criticism, or go find something else to do with your time.

What the moderator said to Marvin equally applies to you.

[Felsagger]

11 minutes ago, (XB1)The Neko Otaku said:

You could hide that fact you're trying to make this thread an echo chamber better, plugging your ears to criticism will always wind up as a stupid move. Conclave is a dead mode and resources will be wasted on anything that's not being shifted over to pve

 

 

This is not your your bus to pick up. We made the decision selecting PvP and we accepted the conditions where such mode is now. We want it to make it better, we want to bring it alive. If you don't like it, you are not obliged to play it. It is perfectly understandable. However you came up with the intention to egg in this thread.   

 

I will make it simple for you. Troll elsewhere. 

 

[GreyDeath789]

14 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

Don't sabotage our place for discussion. We want to make people interested in it. 

Part of getting people interested in something is to present a welcoming environment to discuss the topic. It is hard to say this is a welcoming environment given the responses on either side of this thread. For example, I have no interest in PvP in Warframe yet feel I can have a discussion on the state of PvP in the game. Yet, according to some in this thread unless you are a strong supporter of PvP and have extensive Conclave experience your voice doesn't matter. Also, I have ideas on how PvP might be better received by more PvE players. Does my ideas have no value because I am not interested in PvP?

Just now, (XB1)The Neko Otaku said:

You could hide that fact you're trying to make this thread an echo chamber better, plugging your ears to criticism will always wind up as a stupid move. Conclave is a dead mode and resources will be wasted on anything that's not being shifted over to pve

Given the recent issues DE has had with content...focusing more on PvE would seem a good thing. But totally ignoring PvP for Warframe doesn't have to happen...but it will always come down to the available resources and the current need of the game. The cash cow that Warframe is for DE means Warframe needs to keep making DE money...so if that means pushing PvP improvements/changes for a year or more then so be it... If DE feels PvP would be better as a separate game/server so be it...but if DE wants to keep PvP in the main game then they can do it. The big question people seem to want to rage about is HOW to make PvP successful in Warframe...and some people want to say "it can't be successful" and they have a point...but if others want to bring ideas on how to make it successful then lets hear them and discuss them and come up with suggestions to pass off the DE.

 

[Felsagger]

4 minutes ago, GreyDeath789 said:

Part of getting people interested in something is to present a welcoming environment to discuss the topic. It is hard to say this is a welcoming environment given the responses on either side of this thread. For example, I have no interest in PvP in Warframe yet feel I can have a discussion on the state of PvP in the game. Yet, according to some in this thread unless you are a strong supporter of PvP and have extensive Conclave experience your voice doesn't matter. Also, I have ideas on how PvP might be better received by more PvE players. Does my ideas have no value because I am not interested in PvP?

 

The difference with you and him is that you came in with a honest point of view. You are not talking as an 'expert PvP' player without experience. You are someone who wants to know about what the discussion is about. Your input on why you find it uninteresting to you is data for us. Helps us see in what areas PvP may improve. 

 

Edited June 7, 2020 by Felsagger

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

2 minutes ago, GreyDeath789 said:

Part of getting people interested in something is to present a welcoming environment to discuss the topic.

The other part is having an interest in said topic.

Most of the negative replies on either side is addressing the negativity from a group of people that are against PvP in all forms. You really can't have an informed opinion on rocket surgery (Yes, Rocket Surgery) if you aren't experienced in the topic, and nobody will take you seriously if you have no interest in it, but keep bombarding those around you despite #1 no experience, #2 no interest, and #3 no understanding of it.

I have done every kind of PvP in warframe imaginable. Everything from duels, trying to have the fastest obstacle course time, frame fighter, races (both a normal mission and k-drive.) Dojo duels, conclave, and even a match or two of Lunaro.

I could see PvP working from anything like K-drive races with multiple people, to the standard of conclave after it gets an updated reward pool and different tweaks. However, people who despise the idea of PvP keep this topic from anything interesting when all they can talk about is their hatred of a game mode that will never effect them.

[GreyDeath789]

Just now, Felsagger said:

 

The difference with you and him is that you came in with a honest point of view. You are not talking as an 'expert PvP' player without experience. You are someone who wants to know about what the discussion is about. Your input on why you find it uninteresting to you is data for us. Helps us see in what areas PvP may improve. 

 

And yet I have replied multiple times over the life of this thread...the earliest I can find is May 9th...I just don't have the time to keep up with the banter between some of the folks on this thread. In fact, I have had several constructive discussions in this and other PvP related threads. I know what this discussion is about...and it has devolved to the point that the moderators could easily lock it and nothing would be lost at this point IMO.

[Felsagger]

4 minutes ago, GreyDeath789 said:

  I have had several constructive discussions in this and other PvP related threads. 

Then let focus on these. 

[GreyDeath789]

Just now, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

The other part is having an interest in said topic.

Most of the negative replies on either side is addressing the negativity from a group of people that are against PvP in all forms. You really can't have an informed opinion on rocket surgery (Yes, Rocket Surgery) if you aren't experienced in the topic, and nobody will take you seriously if you have no interest in it, but keep bombarding those around you despite #1 no experience, #2 no interest, and #3 no understanding of it.

I have done every kind of PvP in warframe imaginable. Everything from duels, trying to have the fastest obstacle course time, frame fighter, races (both a normal mission and k-drive.) Dojo duels, conclave, and even a match or two of Lunaro.

I could see PvP working from anything like K-drive races with multiple people, to the standard of conclave after it gets an updated reward pool and different tweaks. However, people who despise the idea of PvP keep this topic from anything interesting when all they can talk about is their hatred of a game mode that will never effect them.

Well the opinion that you have about having to to have experience to talk about a topic is just amazingly close-minded. But hey...you do you.

If someone doesn't have experience but does put forth an effort to research a topic and provide input on the topic sure would seem valid...

I have limited experience and no interest in Warframe PvP...yet I hope I understand it enough to engage in discussions about the topic. Yet, based on your opinion you should simply ignore anything I say...sad really.

Now the "bombarding" point seems fair yet it appears to exist on both sides. Why do people that want PvP to be successful in Warframe think that by 'bombarding' people that don't agree with that opinion will help move the discussion forward?

[Felsagger]

16 minutes ago, GreyDeath789 said:

Well the opinion that you have about having to have experience to talk about a topic is just amazingly close-minded. But hey...you do you.

PvP is based on skill and experience. 

Quote

If someone doesn't have experience but does put forth an effort to research a topic and provide input on the topic sure would seem valid...

Yes that is perfectly valid. 

But a person who has no interest expressing that he wants PvP out questions the reason of his stay in this thread. 

Quote

I have limited experience and no interest in Warframe PvP...yet I hope I understand it enough to engage in discussions about the topic. Yet, based on your opinion you should simply ignore anything I say...sad really.

Your income is not negative or has the intention to egg on our hobby. You approach the thread with a different tone. There is a complete difference how you approach the thread and how they guide the discussion. 

Quote

Now the "bombarding" point seems fair yet it appears to exist on both sides. Why do people that want PvP to be successful in Warframe think that by 'bombarding' people that don't agree with that opinion will help move the discussion forward?

There is a difference being a pent up troll who comes in saying 'PvP is dead, why bother' and another user who has no interest but wants to learn about it. We are not targeting any user in particular. We want a fair discussion. 

 

See? 

Edited June 7, 2020 by Felsagger

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

23 minutes ago, GreyDeath789 said:

Well the opinion that you have about having to have experience to talk about a topic is just amazingly close-minded. But hey...you do you.

Talk about being disingenuous. I specifically mentioned having experience, having interest, and being knowledgeable as the three credentials to having an informed opinion on the matter.

Go tell a doctor that they are close minded for not listening to the advice of non medically trained anti-vaxers. See how far that gets you. See how many people actually value your opinion.

If you were honest, you'd be calling out the people who try to shut down any dialogue about PvP as "amazing'y close-minded" when they advocate getting rid of it entirely without playing it a single time.

Close-minded is when you aren't open to new ideas btw.

People who aren't interested in trying new things, or aren't even open to trying the idea are what you would call "close minded"

Thanks for your honestly terrible opinion. I'll discard any reasonableness I thought you might have had.

Edited June 7, 2020 by (PS4)UltraKardas

[GreyDeath789]

5 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

There is a difference being a pent up troll who comes in saying 'PvP is dead, why bother' and another user who has no interest but wants to learn about it. We are not targeting any user in particular. We want a fair discussion. 

See? 

Oh wait...lets not assume there is a lack of experience and knowledge in PvP as a concept. This isn't the only game that has PvP...not being interested in PvP in Warframe is different that not being interested in PvP in general. Hopefully, I have been consistent in my comments that state "PvP in Warframe"...but I understand your point.

As for the "PvP is dead, why bother"...well that could be a constructive discussion if those that want PvP were willing to engage in that discussion which would seem strongly related to the title of this thread. I would agree that both sides would have to be willing to discuss the topic.

 

 

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

1 minute ago, GreyDeath789 said:

As for the "PvP is dead, why bother"...well that could be a constructive discussion if those that want PvP were willing to engage in that discussion which would seem strongly

Constructive Criticism is about what you can improve.

The statement "PvP is dead, why bother?" is not constructive. It builds nothing. It offers no way of making PvP better.

That sentence in question is what you would call "Close Minded" as it is closed to the view that PvP can be enjoyable in any form.

The more you talk, the less I take you seriously.

[GreyDeath789]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Talk about being disingenuous. I specifically mentioned having experience, having interest, and being knowledgeable as the three credentials to having an informed opinion on the matter.

Go tell a doctor that they are close minded for not listening to the advice of non medically trained anti-vaxers. See how far that gets you. See how many people actually value your opinion.

If you were honest, you'd be calling out the people who try to shut down any dialogue about PvP as "amazing'y close-minded" when they advocate getting rid of it entirely without playing it a single time.

Close-minded is when you aren't open to new ideas btw.

People who aren't interested in trying new things, or aren't even open to trying the idea are what you would call "close minded"

Thanks for your honestly terrible opinion. I'll discard any reasonableness I thought you might have had.

Well I was trying to avoid using other terms that could be viewed as being negative.

Experience, interest, and knowledge...makes me think of the story of "Moneyball" and the Oakland Athletics. A guy with no experience in professional baseball had interest and knowledge and yet helped change how many teams view player rosters.

While having experience, interest, and knowledge are great...ignoring input from people that don't fit a predefined mold is indeed close minded. Maybe if you were open to new ideas about who might provide meaningful input to a topic then the term close minded wouldn't apply. Time will tell...but the future isn't looking bright.

 

[GreyDeath789]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Constructive Criticism is about what you can improve.

The statement "PvP is dead, why bother?" is not constructive. It builds nothing. It offers no way of making PvP better.

That sentence in question is what you would call "Close Minded" as it is closed to the view that PvP can be enjoyable in any form.

The more you talk, the less I take you seriously.

Well glad to see you are on a tear here...but lets try this...stating PvP is dead and why bother doesn't say anything about PvP being enjoyable or not...it just points out that PvP in Warframe is "dead"...

This is why the thread has devolved...people that want PvP to be successful won't keep an open mind and simply start making claims about comments.

"PvP is dead, why bother?" is a question. It could be something answered instead of dismissed.

An answer could be "Because some people like PvP and like PvP in Warframe" which doesn't really build anything either.

Instead, like other discussions I have had with other posters in this and other PvP threads...maybe there could be a discussion on why PvP is dead in Warframe as a starting point to lead to how to make PvP successful in Warframe (the title of the thread).

Eagerly awaiting the next thought provoking response.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

4 minutes ago, GreyDeath789 said:

Well I was trying to avoid using other terms that could be viewed as being negative.

How about you use terms that are honest.

Saying things like "Your house is on fire" could be viewed as being negative. However, if it is being truthful is far more important then not hurting anyone's feelings.
 

6 minutes ago, GreyDeath789 said:

Experience, interest, and knowledge...makes me think of the story of "Moneyball" and the Oakland Athletics. A guy with no experience in professional baseball had interest and knowledge and yet helped change how many teams view player rosters.

Wow. Almost like you just admitted every single last thing I said was 100% correct.

So out of those three categories, using Moneyball as an example, let's agree you can get away with only having 2/3. You can have no experience, but interest and knowledge makes you have a credible opinion. You can also have no interest, but have experience and knowledge to have a credible opinion. "If somebody has no interest, it means they honestly spent time in PvP, or did PvP for rewards but didn't enjoy it. They quit after they got the rewards they need.

So where does that put people with no interest, no knowledge, and no experience like Marvin, or the Neku Otaku? As the moderator pointed out, puts them in the "pointless comment" category.

10 minutes ago, GreyDeath789 said:

Maybe if you were open to new ideas about who might provide meaningful input to a topic then the term close minded wouldn't apply. Time will tell...but the future isn't looking bright.

You are either a simpleton, or you get you legal advice, and medical advice from the local gas station.

Sorry but everything you just said in your last quote couldn't be more wrong. Ignoring input from people who literally couldn't care less about the subject, who will never use the subject, and don't even offer an intelligent thoughtful opinion are better off ignoring the subject entirely.

Sorry "pal." But "delete PvP from the game" isn't "meaningful input"

I'm open to new ideas. You, Marvin and the Neku Otaku have provided exactly 0 new ideas. Deleting PvP isn't a "new idea."

If you want "New Ideas" Try coming up with a new method of PvP that hasn't been attempted in Warframe yet. K-drive races with other players is one example. Railjack PvP is another.

It's quite funny to me, that you spend more time on talking about "Close minded-ness" then actually talking about new ideas.

The funniest part to me. Everyone I have ever talked to, who has tried to call me "Close minded" have always been the close minded ones.

Now, if you can please stop wasting my time, say something actually productive to the topic, or get lost.
 

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

9 minutes ago, GreyDeath789 said:

but lets try this...

How about you try saying something worth reading for once.

I can hop in recruit chat, and duel people in the dojo all day. My clan has built only 20-30 custom dojo rooms in different configurations for interesting duels.

Duels are a form of PvP. Even today I played a conclave match.

Saying PvP is dead would be wrong. There are discord servers that all they do is talk about PvP. So saying it's dead is neither correct, nor does it provide any actual feedback.

And several of the people who ARE saying PvP is dead, HAVE NEVER ACTUALLY PvP-ed.

That's like me telling you, that your family is dead. I have never experienced them, met them, or interacted with them. But I'm just gonna call them dead, regardless if they are- or not.

[GreyDeath789]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

How about you use terms that are honest.

Saying things like "Your house is on fire" could be viewed as being negative. However, if it is being truthful is far more important then not hurting anyone's feelings.
 

Wow. Almost like you just admitted every single last thing I said was 100% correct.

So out of those three categories, using Moneyball as an example, let's agree you can get away with only having 2/3. You can have no experience, but interest and knowledge makes you have a credible opinion. You can also have no interest, but have experience and knowledge to have a credible opinion. "If somebody has no interest, it means they honestly spent time in PvP, or did PvP for rewards but didn't enjoy it. They quit after they got the rewards they need.

So where does that put people with no interest, no knowledge, and no experience like Marvin, or the Neku Otaku? As the moderator pointed out, puts them in the "pointless comment" category.

You are either a simpleton, or you get you legal advice, and medical advice from the local gas station.

Sorry but everything you just said in your last quote couldn't be more wrong. Ignoring input from people who literally couldn't care less about the subject, who will never use the subject, and don't even offer an intelligent thoughtful opinion are better off ignoring the subject entirely.

Sorry "pal." But "delete PvP from the game" isn't "meaningful input"

I'm open to new ideas. You, Marvin and the Neku Otaku have provided exactly 0 new ideas. Deleting PvP isn't a "new idea."

If you want "New Ideas" Try coming up with a new method of PvP that hasn't been attempted in Warframe yet. K-drive races with other players is one example. Railjack PvP is another.

It's quite funny to me, that you spend more time on talking about "Close minded-ness" then actually talking about new ideas.

The funniest part to me. Everyone I have ever talked to, who has tried to call me "Close minded" have always been the close minded ones.

Now, if you can please stop wasting my time, say something actually productive to the topic, or get lost.
 

Love the name calling as a defense. Enjoy how someone that doesn't have all 3 can't speak to the topic of PvP but then 2/3 is ok...moving targets...great!

All the naming calling in this response is amazing. Now you want to group me with others you disagree with...as if that is somehow improving the thread.

Maybe you could go back and read my responses to see if they are 'meaningful input'...

You need 'new' ideas...instead of ideas that could lead to PvP being successful in Warframe. So an old idea isn't useful...just new ideas.

It is plainly clear that you are close minded on this subject...bordering on bigoted even.

 

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

4 minutes ago, GreyDeath789 said:

Love the name calling as a defense.

Not a defense. I'm honestly tired of your terrible opinion lol.

So let me tell you the definition of irony.

Irony is you supporting close minded individuals who will never be open to PvP, will never suggest a new idea for PvP and who have no interest to PvP.

This is despite you calling me Close minded.

So, calling your words like hypocrite, or simpleton are indeed accurate, when you have double standards. Calling you a simpleton was a "Nice" way of putting what I think of you into words, when you don't even know the correct definition of constructive criticism.

I took your example of Moneyball, and explained to you why that was helpful. The guy in moneyball had interest, and knowledge. Without those two key features, nothing he said or did would have been helpful.

That leaves your conversation right now firmly in the "Not helpful category". As you have still given 0 new ideas, while you lecture me to be open to new ideas. The problem is... you and the people you are defending don't give new ideas.

Do you know what the word "Idea" means? Cause, I'm waiting for a new idea. I've played warframe before PvP. That's not a new idea.

Meanwhile, I'm waiting for you to give me a new idea. Spitball dude. Give me the wildest new PvP idea you can come up with. How about a Trick competition. We drop 8 tenno on K-drive's in an Orokin Skatepark.

The tenno who gets the most trick points when the timer ends is the winner.

This is an example of a new idea. Being open minded would be like telling DE to add it as an event for special K-drive cosmetics.

Saying "PvP is dead" is the opposite of that.

[GreyDeath789]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Not a defense. I'm honestly tired of your terrible opinion lol.

So let me tell you the definition of irony.

Irony is you supporting close minded individuals who will never be open to PvP, will never suggest a new idea for PvP and who have no interest to PvP.

This is despite you calling me Close minded.

So, calling your words like hypocrite, or simpleton are indeed accurate, when you have double standards. Calling you a simpleton was a "Nice" way of putting what I think of you into words, when you don't even know the correct definition of constructive criticism.

I took your example of Moneyball, and explained to you why that was helpful. The guy in moneyball had interest, and knowledge. Without those two key features, nothing he said or did would have been helpful.

That leaves your conversation right now firmly in the "Not helpful category". As you have still given 0 new ideas, while you lecture me to be open to new ideas. The problem is... you and the people you are defending don't give new ideas.

Do you know what the word "Idea" means? Cause, I'm waiting for a new idea. I've played warframe before PvP. That's not a new idea.

Meanwhile, I'm waiting for you to give me a new idea. Spitball dude. Give me the wildest new PvP idea you can come up with. How about a Trick competition. We drop 8 tenno on K-drive's in an Orokin Skatepark.

The tenno who gets the most trick points when the timer ends is the winner.

This is an example of a new idea. Being open minded would be like telling DE to add it as an event for special K-drive cosmetics.

Saying "PvP is dead" is the opposite of that.

Still having read my posts I take it? It is okay...you are too busy insulting people because your opinion is the only one that matters.

Interesting you feel I am supporting one side of this topic or the other...wrong but expected given your responses.

The Moneyball example was to point out that your claim that people had to have three things...yet someone with only two could provide meaningful information.

This demand for 'new' ideas while not having read my posts continues...

Insulting someone is always a strong response to support your point. Always.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

14 minutes ago, GreyDeath789 said:

Enjoy how someone that doesn't have all 3 can't speak to the topic of PvP but then 2/3 is ok...moving targets...great!

Yes. Having 0 experience, 0 interest, and 0 knowledge makes your opinion pretty worthless.

Almost like you don't know anything about the subject, don't care about the subject, and have no experience on the subject.

Is a heart surgeon, or a nasa astronaut going to listen about what a clueless 45 year thinks about heart surgery, or rocket aerodynamics?

The answer is no.

Having 1/3 makes your opinion tolerable. If somebody has interest in PvP but has never done it, I can at least humor them, or explain to them how it works.

Having 2/3 makes them have a decent opinion. They at least know a bit about how it works.

Having 3/3 actually gives them a credible opinion, as they have personally experienced PvP, and can tell you the pro's and cons of it.

For example, you could ask me anything about PvP and I would have an answer for you. I can tell you what I enjoyed, what things I hated, and what I think made warframe pvp the best.

I even have recorded PvP footage of my best moments. I enjoyed it enough to save it for later.
 

21 minutes ago, GreyDeath789 said:

Now you want to group me with others you disagree with...as if that is somehow improving the thread.

Not a single comment you have posted has improved the thread. Grouping you with the others actually makes a lot of sense considering you are just wasting everyone's time when they read your comments.

22 minutes ago, GreyDeath789 said:

Maybe you could go back and read my responses to see if they are 'meaningful input'...

Your current comments aren't worth reading. I don't know why I would waste my time.

You won't even give me new ideas when I ask for them.

23 minutes ago, GreyDeath789 said:

You need 'new' ideas...instead of ideas that could lead to PvP being successful in Warframe. So an old idea isn't useful...just new ideas.

Yes, Being open to new ideas is being called "Open Minded."

See, you criticized me of being "close minded."

So in response, I informed you that I am open to new ideas, however, I have not heard a new idea. I think K-drive races, and K-drive competitions could really easily be successful. But instead you call me "close minded" when I don't value opinions of people who will never play PvP.

Thus I informed you, that you are a simpleton, as a moderator has already addressed this topic on what is good feedback. You are taking this topic further away from PvP, while ignoring everything the moderator has mentioned on this thread.
 

[GreyDeath789]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

How about you try saying something worth reading for once.

I can hop in recruit chat, and duel people in the dojo all day. My clan has built only 20-30 custom dojo rooms in different configurations for interesting duels.

Duels are a form of PvP. Even today I played a conclave match.

Saying PvP is dead would be wrong. There are discord servers that all they do is talk about PvP. So saying it's dead is neither correct, nor does it provide any actual feedback.

And several of the people who ARE saying PvP is dead, HAVE NEVER ACTUALLY PvP-ed.

That's like me telling you, that your family is dead. I have never experienced them, met them, or interacted with them. But I'm just gonna call them dead, regardless if they are- or not.

Give us a list of things that are worth reading please...

What does DE_Steve call this...oh right...whataboutisms....got it...

Always enjoy when people flip ...when I said you needed experience, interest, and knowledge I mean exactly all three...oh wait...no I meant any of the three.

Someone said "PvP is dead, why bother?" yet there is a pulse...so it isn't dead. End of discussion. That person is wrong. Because...well...it isn't dead.

If someone said "Raids are dead, why bother?" it is pretty easy to claim they were not dead. Someone ran raids...yet DE decided for some reason it was best to remove raids from the game. Was it because the player base played raids so little that DE wanted to save money instead of supporting them?

Is PvP any different?

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

7 minutes ago, GreyDeath789 said:

The Moneyball example was to point out that your claim that people had to have three things...yet someone with only two could provide meaningful information.

Moneyball was actually an example of somebody having interest in something, and knowledge about something and being able to give input worth a damn.

I never said you needed all 3. Having all 3 would be preferable, but people who have no interest and no experience, tend to not have a clue what they are talking about.

Just like you.

Do both of us a favor. This is the moderator that posted earlier in this discussion. Read this, then if you can't say anything relevant, or add anything worth reading, take the moderators advice and "in which case it may be better to simply not engage in the discussion at all. Just because it's posted to General Discussion doesn't mean you have to view it and reply to it. "

On 2020-05-22 at 2:52 PM, Letter13 said:

There's a big difference between 'Yes Sayers' and constructive discussion. "Just remove it" is not constructive in the slightest. It doesn't add anything of value.

As for feedback, this thread isn't feedback. It's clearly meant as a thread to discuss PVP with other players, not to provide feedback to DE (though a feedback thread to DE is what this thread may ultimately produce as a result of the discussion).

If you don't like or don't want PvP, there's no real reason for you to respond or engage in discussion in this thread. Assume PvP is here to stay. Perhaps instead of "Don't like it would rather it be removed" you could think about something like 'What would make PvP more appealing to me?' and chime in accordingly? Unless of course the answer is still "Don't like it would rather it be removed" in which case it may be better to simply not engage in the discussion at all. Just because it's posted to General Discussion doesn't mean you have to view it and reply to it. 

And while you are at it.

try to be more open minded. You are really close minded to my viewpoints.

[Felsagger]

Grey please. Could you please stop. Don't sabotage our thread, please.