Do you think PVP can be successful ?

[(XBOX)GameGhost123]

I do think conclave can be successful if enough of the community gains interest in it. It needs more ppl playing it, if more ppl play it and enough of the community starts showing interest in it thats when DE will start to look towards conclave and start working on it. We need ppl of likemind in the community to start sharing their good experiences/ positive feedback about conclave. Tho it may not be what u want to hear if ppl keep complaining about conclave nothings going to get done about it that just proves to de that they shouldn't focus on it. Sure u can dream and say if enough ppl complain about it maybe they'll do something about it but u gotta realize 90%+ of the community is already complaining about it yet nothing happens. Conclave isnt going to get anywhere like that. Bring a friend and do a couple conclave matches just to try it , ask your clan mates to check out conclave,  tell ppl  about the conclave discord,  maybe do a clan event involving a conclave tournament, post positive feedback in forums about conclave,  try to get more ppl interested this might seem like a longshot and seem like very small steps but what conclave needs most is ppl right now. 

[(XBOX)TheLastDax]

On 2019-11-27 at 4:18 PM, Teridax68 said:

Oh, I know! Maybe it's because the game was never actually "ninjas in space" to begin with, does not feature an ounce of ninja gameplay in PvP even if it did, and has core mechanics that do not lend themselves to PvP, as listed in the post you are replying to. Found it!

And from your rather short, yet lopsided posting history, it is evident you are on these forums solely to try to convince someone, anyone, that Conclave isn't a dead game mode. I have spent enough time in Conclave, and referenced enough Conclave content, to be reasonably sure of what I am stating, particularly as what I am saying is by no means new or original.

Except when it comes to actual combat, at which point the best strategy is visibly to just flop around and shoot at random, as can be seen here. I'm sure talking about how mortal men such as myself cannot possibly comprehend the big-brained Conclave plays you perform must make you feel very important, but it also underlines the fact that Conclave is impenetrable to newer players, and offers little reason for people to slog through what is largely recognized as a painful experience in order to develop a skillset that only carries value in that mode. All the less reason to have Conclave around.

Which is why the Ignis became such an overused and complained-about weapon that what few Conclave players remain even now complain about its balance, as evidenced by numerous forum threads. I'm not sure what you're trying to gain here by blanket-denying what I've said, particularly when my claims are easily verifiable.

Except Nyx's 1 and 3 are completely different, Valkyr's 4 doesn't provide damage immunity, and Vauban's Bastille didn't suspend enemies, it only slowed them, to name but a small handful of examples. Even when the abilities aren't redesigned, their numbers are patently different from their PvE counterparts, and they generally never apply long-duration hard crowd control, as so many PvE abilities do. All of this, by the way, can be easily verified with just a glance at the wiki, or even a match of Conclave, so once again, I really do not understand why you even attempted such a bald-faced lie, let alone the unintentionally hilarious exclamations you decided to pair it up with.

But it clearly isn't, though, as noted by the above. Insisting that it is won't make your statement any less false.

... and how many in Conclave, pray tell? Even thousands of people is itself not much for a game whose total player count is in the tens of millions (that is, in fact, in the 0.01% magnitude of players, which is a rather sad number)

In video games, yes, because unfortunately there are not that many players mature enough to win or lose gracefully in online PvP combat. PvP formats also tend to have a degree of toxicity because they tend to attract the kind of person aggressively trying to prove they're better than other people: this frequently bleeds out of the game, and into other media such as chat, or even the game's forums, where these people will, for example, jump into threads just to put down others, tell those people how much better they are than them, and make bold claims about their self-proclaimed field of expertise that aren't even remotely true.

A post defending Conclave wouldn't be complete without the persecution complex. There aren't many Conclave players on the forums because there aren't many Conclave players to begin with, yet despite this the Conclave subcommunity still happens to be disproportionately vocal, and consistently maintains the bizarre stance of being often outright hostile and condescending to anyone under Typhoon rank, while simultaneously expecting the entire Warframe community to take their side in asking DE to pay more attention to Conclave.

Just a quick reality check: Conclave has been "mistreated" because it has been a resounding failure, and any effort put into it is effort wasted when it could produce significantly better results in almost any other component of Warframe. Similarly, it has been "slandered" by the playerbase because it is not a well-designed game mode, and is near-universally recognized as such. Conclave is a joke, and will never be anything other than a joke in a game virtually no-one joins or stays in for PvP combat.

And this makes sense... how?

Which is good, because I never expressed any desire to censor the Conclave community or restrict their ability to participate in discussion, unlike, say, the Conclave community itself, who produced and upvoted a thread legitimately asking to restrict the Conclave feedback forums to Typhoons.

Yes, clearly Conclave works so well, and is so popular, that you have to convince me of its alleged success. Who are you even trying to convince at this point: me, or you?

The game clearly has marketed itself using the words ninjas before. In fact, its literally on my screen right now. 

 

>I have spent enough time in conclave

For the record, here are your conclave stats  

and here are my conclave stats  

I don't think you have spent enough time in conclave to even think you have an opinion. Ill drop 23 kills in a single match on accident. I doubt you have spent more than 20 minutes in conclave, let alone enough time to actually understand what you are doing in conclave. You can't understand conclave just by complaining about its mere existence. There are so many things that you can only comprehend by actually playing conclave for a length of time. I believe this is the root of your ignorance about the mode. If you want to play some matches with people and learn about from people who have actually played it, you are welcomed to join the conclave discord.

The person in that clip, Grinlok, is not flopping around at random. He's just doing basic maneuvering from what I can gather in that clip. However, the person that was recording that clip, wasn't even trying to move. He was just walking around during the second half of your video. Not a very good example. Here is a clip of what high-level conclave looks like, 

Developing a skillset, even one which is not as obvious to apply in PvE, is always a net benefit. "Oh no! I learned how to move through missions faster with better movement and now my aim is better! Whatever shall I do?!?" is something that nobody has ever said. I don't see how developing a skillset which carries over into nearly every other game on the market can be a bad thing.

The weapon balance in conclave isn't a problem with conclave, its a problem with DE. There have been many months in conclave where the balance has been relatively fine and everything was great. Do we have an unfortunate meta right now in conclave because of DE's mismanagement? Yes. But that isn't indicative of the quality of the concept of conclave and its application in warframe, thats indicative of DE just mishandling the situation. The issue with the ignis isn't the damage, anyway. Its the tremendous cloud of black smoke that it emits when it fires.

I don't see how those abilities are significantly different from their PvE counterparts. Valkyr still uses the same talons, with the same animations. Sure she isn't invincible, but she does get 50% damage reduction on damage applied to her. I don't think anyone would argue that it is THAT big of a difference. Abilities and balance thereof, is something DE has handled pretty well in conclave and I commend them for it given the size and depth of the task. The differences between the PvP and PvE abilities are frankly negligible.

Yes, conclave is in Warframe. I am playing Warframe when I play conclave. They are the same game. To play conclave, I have to load up Warframe. I don't need to install anything else besides Warframe to play conclave, because conclave is a part of Warframe. I don't see what is so difficult about this. Perhaps on PC it is different for you?

Many people play conclave on Xbox, which is where I draw my experiences from. We have just wrapped up a 64 player 2v2 tournament in the last month. We just aren't as vocal of a minority as you think we are. The conclave community, while small, is really tight knit and dedicated to playing this mode. It is genuinely a hidden gem.

I haven't ran into nearly as much toxicity in Conclave as I have in PvE. People will leave the session and harass me because I'm not running some obscure, specific build on my "off-meta" frame. People will absolutely message you harsh words for using the "wrong relic" in their mission. Look at the recent Kuva Lich fiasco, people were at each others throats over killing each others liches. Toxicity isn't a PvE or a PvP problem, it is a human problem. To say that it is only in PvP or strongly correlated with PvP is disingenuous. If we let fear of toxicity or adversity from others stop us from doing something, we would hardly get anything done.

Conclave is outright hated by certain groups of the community, with some going as far as to post about how they believe conclave should be removed from the game. There is no other game mode that gets the unnecessary and, I will be frank here, irrelevant opposition that conclave receives in threads like these and many others. Many of these people have not played the mode.There is certainly a discourse against conclave that is not only founded on misinformation and misinterpretation, but also a very appealing bandwagon for people. If conclave was as terrible as you believe it to be, I would be on that bandwagon.

Restricting conclave feedback to typhoons only is genuinely a good idea. I see that the thread is archived now, so I will make a new thread for it in conclave feedback after I finish typing and proofreading this post. If it would limit ignorant input and feedback similar to yours, I would consider that a tremendous improvement in that forum section. 

 

 

[kwlingo]

I went into Conclave and only saw one other person in the entire 10 mins. lol So the answer is no. Players get upset even when you trigger a laser beam/ camera in spy. Do you think they will even want to get killed in PvP? Probably not unless we all stand still for them to kill us. Warframe majority mentality. Thats why no one enters Conclave because of knowing you can fail.

[Paradoxity]

4 hours ago, kwlingo said:

I went into Conclave and only saw one other person in the entire 10 mins. lol So the answer is no. Players get upset even when you trigger a laser beam/ camera in spy. Do you think they will even want to get killed in PvP? Probably not unless we all stand still for them to kill us. Warframe majority mentality. Thats why no one enters Conclave because of knowing you can fail.

No one enters conclave because A) the rewards aren't good enough to care about and B) the vast majority of the players of warframe didn't care about PvP to begin with. I mean, hell, it took, what, 2 years? from the first open beta update to conclave even entering the game? 

Warframe has always, always been a game where PvP is a secondary concern at best, and it's largely viewed as a PvE game. At this point, you might be able to do something like... IDK. Archwing races a la mario kart or something where it's got a chance. But as a deathmatch? Not worth the effort. 

 

 

[Kontrollo]

I'd just like to mention a few things (possibly again):

• I don't think anyone is asking for putting a focus on PvP. E.g. make an update all about that. Fixes and polish are what are required in the already existing modes right now.
   
• No one is saying that the game isn't mainly about PvE or that this should change.

 

But well, I've decided to look at Twitch numbers again, and I get pretty much the same picture as before. One Destiny 2 guy somehow has more viewers than the entirety of Warframe:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that game is probably seen as the most direct competitor. Somehow they managed to pull it off just fine. Why can't this game? And although it makes the most sense for PvP in a shooter to be about shooting each other (and disclaimer: it's what I myself care for), I'm not even saying it has to be about that. The game has plenty of other things on offer.

 

I'd also say with all the Space Ninja combat, there are just some really awesome moments in PvP, which you'll never experience against the dumb-as-a-brick enemies in PvE. And there are some great Conclave montages on the net that are a testament to that.

Why are there so many people here who are categorically against it? Or rather, downright opposed? I mean, e.g. I pretty much don't care at all about conservation, but that makes me indifferent at best.

So I guess I simply don't understand that mindset.

[Teridax68]

On 2019-12-01 at 6:35 PM, (XB1)Longfinger LOKI said:

The game clearly has marketed itself using the words ninjas before. In fact, its literally on my screen right now. 

Yes, and despite marketing itself as a game about space ninjas, anyone who's played it at all can patently see that it's not the case, and never has been. "Ninjas Play Free" is a great slogan, don't get me wrong, but this is also the game that released Rhino as one of its original warframes.

Quote

 

>I have spent enough time in conclave

For the record, here are your conclave stats  

and here are my conclave stats  

I don't think you have spent enough time in conclave to even think you have an opinion. Ill drop 23 kills in a single match on accident. I doubt you have spent more than 20 minutes in conclave, let alone enough time to actually understand what you are doing in conclave. You can't understand conclave just by complaining about its mere existence. There are so many things that you can only comprehend by actually playing conclave for a length of time. I believe this is the root of your ignorance about the mode. If you want to play some matches with people and learn about from people who have actually played it, you are welcomed to join the conclave discord.

This is quite possibly the most pathetic attempt at self-aggrandizement I have ever seen. Putting aside the inherent pitifulness of believing one's massive amount of time spent in Conclave is going to raise more than a single eyebrow to anyone else, the fact remains that we're not comparing Conclave e-peens here: it doesn't matter whether you can allegedly 360 noscope twenty people in your sleep, the fact remains that I've clearly played several matches of Conclave, and so have a sufficient idea of how it plays. My statements have been substantiated not only by arguments, but by concrete video evidence as well, and have been corroborated by other players, whereas you seem to be under the impression that your ultimately rather sad stats demonstrate anything other than your visible bias on the matter.

Quote

The person in that clip, Grinlok, is not flopping around at random. He's just doing basic maneuvering from what I can gather in that clip. However, the person that was recording that clip, wasn't even trying to move. He was just walking around during the second half of your video. Not a very good example. Here is a clip of what high-level conclave looks like, 

The person in that video demonstrates the exact same kind of random flopping about as the one in the video I listed, so you are doing nothing more here than prove my point. The fact that you seem to consider such movement normal, even as others here have described it as literally nauseating, itself suggests you may be too far gone to speak for anything other than the notably tiny minority of dedicated Conclave players.

Quote

Developing a skillset, even one which is not as obvious to apply in PvE, is always a net benefit.

Yes... to a subset of the game largely recognized as worthless by the near-totality of the playerbase. It has no application to PvE, particularly as so many Conclave mains seem strangely disdainful of PvE Warframe.

Quote

"Oh no! I learned how to move through missions faster with better movement and now my aim is better! Whatever shall I do?!?" is something that nobody has ever said. I don't see how developing a skillset which carries over into nearly every other game on the market can be a bad thing.

Nearly every other game on the market... such as? As mentioned above, it doesn't even apply to the rest of Warframe, so the veracity of your claim here is questionable even without the complete lack of supporting examples.

Quote

The weapon balance in conclave isn't a problem with conclave, its a problem with DE. There have been many months in conclave where the balance has been relatively fine and everything was great. Do we have an unfortunate meta right now in conclave because of DE's mismanagement? Yes. But that isn't indicative of the quality of the concept of conclave and its application in warframe, thats indicative of DE just mishandling the situation. The issue with the ignis isn't the damage, anyway. Its the tremendous cloud of black smoke that it emits when it fires.

Except DE's in charge of Conclave, and Conclave hardly gets updated enough for its meta to change quickly for the better. The fact remains that even you admit Conclave's balancing is terrible, and nothing seems to suggest that will improve. Even if we do assume its balance was fine, Conclave was never anything but a near-completely abandoned game mode, so that does in fact prove that Conclave would still be immensely unpopular even if it DE deployed large enough efforts to give it perfect balance.

Quote

I don't see how those abilities are significantly different from their PvE counterparts. Valkyr still uses the same talons, with the same animations.

Let's all just take a moment to appreciate the fact that you just tried to define abilities purely by their visuals.

Quote

Sure she isn't invincible, but she does get 50% damage reduction on damage applied to her. I don't think anyone would argue that it is THAT big of a difference.

Apparently, taking half damage is the same as total immunity to damage now. Do you even play PvE at all?

Quote

Abilities and balance thereof, is something DE has handled pretty well in conclave and I commend them for it given the size and depth of the task. The differences between the PvP and PvE abilities are frankly negligible.

Negligible to you, for what is clearly purely the sake of the argument. It is interesting that you'd do a 180 here from claiming that most warframe abilities received literally no change from PvE to Conclave, to now praising DE for "the size and depth of the task" of doing that same translation work you just denied. You've been demonstrably proven wrong here, in a manner anyone, even yourself, can easily verify just by looking at the wiki. As such, it is an established fact, even by your own accidental admission, that warframes are not innately designed for PvP, and need a heavy amount of work just for something with even a vague resemblance to their original kit to be able to function in Conclave. Given that Conclave in general presents far too little benefit to Warframe or its playerbase to warrant designing two warframes each time instead of one, it is understandable that DE wouldn't want to put any further effort into it, as is already the case with the new Ember and Vauban kits not even being re-included in PvP.

Quote

Yes, conclave is in Warframe. I am playing Warframe when I play conclave. They are the same game. To play conclave, I have to load up Warframe. I don't need to install anything else besides Warframe to play conclave, because conclave is a part of Warframe. I don't see what is so difficult about this. Perhaps on PC it is different for you?

By that same token, Zork is Call of Duty, simply because one can boot up the latter to play the former. It doesn't stop the two from being fundamentally different games with stark differences in gameplay, and even DE acknowledges this, which is why they've essentially done everything they can to isolate Conclave from Warframe proper, short of cutting it off completely. People generally don't play Conclave when they play Warframe, and the people who do play Conclave generally don't seem interested in playing Warframe either. The two may look similar, but ultimately play by fundamentally different rules, and it just so happens that the people who sign up for Warframe's gameplay tend to heavily dislike Conclave's.

Quote

Many people play conclave on Xbox, which is where I draw my experiences from. We have just wrapped up a 64 player 2v2 tournament in the last month. We just aren't as vocal of a minority as you think we are. The conclave community, while small, is really tight knit and dedicated to playing this mode. It is genuinely a hidden gem.

... 64 players is an even more laughable number than the one you give before. How is that of even the remotest importance in a game that counts tens of millions of players? Once again, not only are you proving my point here, you are also showing just how out of touch you are with the rest of the game and its community.

Quote

I haven't ran into nearly as much toxicity in Conclave as I have in PvE. People will leave the session and harass me because I'm not running some obscure, specific build on my "off-meta" frame.

... such as? This sounds a lot less like you getting shamed for an off-meta build (which people usually never care about), and more like you intentionally doing things in a team game that disrupted the mission for everyone else.

Quote

People will absolutely message you harsh words for using the "wrong relic" in their mission.

Which is absolutely justified if you try to pull a fast one on players asking for a specific relic and quality type in Recruiting chat. Otherwise, the worst that happens is people occasionally disconnecting in pub matches if they don't see a relic they're interested in.

Quote

Look at the recent Kuva Lich fiasco, people were at each others throats over killing each others liches.

Yes, which is a notable problem specifically because that kind of thing pretty much never happened previously. Meanwhile, the Conclave community here consistently trolls threads and ceaselessly harasses critics of the game mode, as you are amply demonstrating even here, to a degree of obsessiveness that surpasses virtually any PvE player's.

Quote

Toxicity isn't a PvE or a PvP problem, it is a human problem. To say that it is only in PvP or strongly correlated with PvP is disingenuous. If we let fear of toxicity or adversity from others stop us from doing something, we would hardly get anything done.

Oh, I fully agree, we shouldn't let fear of toxicity from others stop us, which is why I'm going to continue speaking my piece on Conclave regardless of whichever sad attempts at silencing me you choose to continue making on this thread. Toxicity may not be exclusive to PvP, but it's reared its head among the Conclave community far more and more consistently than any other subset of the Warframe playerbase. Your very behavior on this thread proves me right.

Quote

Conclave is outright hated by certain groups of the community, with some going as far as to post about how they believe conclave should be removed from the game. There is no other game mode that gets the unnecessary and, I will be frank here, irrelevant opposition that conclave receives in threads like these and many others.

Except for Kuva Liches, Defection, Riven mods, Grendel's missions, etc. right off the top of my head. Conclave may certainly be receiving some of the harshest criticism from the community, because it is arguably the biggest failure in Warframe's history, but once again, Conclave isn't the only feature being criticized, so let's perhaps bring a reality check to that persecution complex. Similarly, I'm confused by how often this sort of argument gets trotted out by Conclave players, where apparently the entire Warframe playerbase has it out for Conclave because... reasons. It's never explained why there's this global conspiracy to make Conclave look bad, but apparently it exists nonetheless. Have you considered the possibility that some people want Conclave to be removed simply because it's not very good?

Quote

Many of these people have not played the mode.There is certainly a discourse against conclave that is not only founded on misinformation and misinterpretation, but also a very appealing bandwagon for people. If conclave was as terrible as you believe it to be, I would be on that bandwagon.

Or, rather, you wouldn't, because you are visibly biased on the matter, to such an extent that you've even chosen to partially define your self-worth around your time spent playing that mode. Perhaps this is why so many Conclave players act so toxic in the face of criticism of the mode, because there seems to be this common mistake among them of interpreting criticism of Conclave as a personal attack. Removing or abandoning Conclave would mean destroying the one thing you've devoted so much of yourself to, which is altogether depressing. Unfortunately, though, as much as I can empathize with that, and the desire to protect oneself by defending Conclave tooth and nail, it would likely be healthier for you to face reality, rather than keep deluding yourself as you've been doing across your posts. You are clearly trying to convince yourself more than anyone else here, too.

Quote

Restricting conclave feedback to typhoons only is genuinely a good idea. I see that the thread is archived now, so I will make a new thread for it in conclave feedback after I finish typing and proofreading this post. If it would limit ignorant input and feedback similar to yours, I would consider that a tremendous improvement in that forum section. 

Just this opinion I think says enough about how valuable your own input is, and how interested you truly are in having a constructive discussion, and once again, you're proving me right when I point out the toxicity and misguided elitism inherent in the Conclave community. I already made a post on that thread sharing my thoughts, but really: if you are so intent on turning Conclave feedback into an even tinier echo chamber, be my guest. If you had a rational mindset on this matter, you would value the feedback of newer players, because your community desperately needs new blood if it is to continue existing, and if DE ever wants the mode to become more popular (they don't seem to, however), they're going to have to understand why people dislike Conclave so much, which isn't going to come from people who have already bought into it hook, line, and sinker. However, if you would sooner cut off your already extremely minoritary community even harder and make its opinion even more irrelevant to the rest of the Warframe community's, all because you cannot stand the thought of anyone expressing a negative opinion on Conclave, that works for me too. The sooner DE realizes they're better off cutting their losses with Conclave and focusing their resources on genuinely worthwhile content, just as they cut the old Trials, the better.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Teridax68

[Kontrollo]

On 2019-12-02 at 6:23 AM, Kontrollo said:

Why are there so many people here who are categorically against it? Or rather, downright opposed? I mean, e.g. I pretty much don't care at all about conservation, but that makes me indifferent at best.

Case in point, all that vitriol in the post right above mine. ☹️

[Foefaller]

I've tried Conclave a couple of times. Usually even had fun with it win or lose, but it's been IIRC over a year since I tried it out.

For me, there are two things going on that always make me go "ehhh" whenever I consider maybe doing Conclave again.

First one is there is an intimidation factor. Not in my skill level compared to others (I know I'm going to get my butt kicked more often than not) but just the sheer number of options going in. Yes, that's a very ironic statement from someone who's Rank 24, but it's true; I look at the list of Conclave weapon stats on the wiki and part of my mind starts to enter panic mode.

I know some experimentation is going to be a thing for PvP, but I wonder if you would get more people through the door if instead PvE weapons became skins for a selection of Conclave weapon archetypes (with the option to make everyone else display the default weapon skin on your end so you don't have to memorize which weapons are what archetype, of course.) With Conclave mods perhaps expanded to make some of the current weapon stats possible. That would probably help with the devs to keep up with balancing too.

I also wonder if something similar should apply to Warframes as well. You are never going to get anything resembling balance if most Warframes are going to function in a way that lines up with their PvE counterpart, so why bother trying? Group the frames into archetypes, and perhaps keep some uniqueness with a single ability that's kept from their PvE version or thematic quirks that could be used to make up for things like size differences and varying profiles.

Second one, and probably the biggest one, is reward. You know what made me finally try out Conclave? That year when they added that snowball fight game mode for winter and put up potatoes for those who participated. That kept me playing long enough to rank up in the syndicate at least once and even get some unique Conclave cosmetics and mods, but I eventually stopped because, well, playing Conclave got me nowhere on the PvE side.

It always seemed to me to be rather unfair, for both the Conclave lovers and the PvEers who might be interested in shooting at fellow Tenno from time to time, that one *has* to play PvE to get more weapons and frames to use in Conclave, but other than Relic packs and *eventually* Excal/Mag/Volt almost nothing that's rewarded in Conclave helps in any gameplay way for PvE. There should be ways to get resources and credits through Conclave at the very least, maybe a chance for taters and rarer stuff, and some alternative ways to get BPs too. It doesn't have to (nor should it) be *better* than PvE methods, but it should be an alternative way to grind when the other grind methods are currently making the PvEer want to stab something, and it should allow people who want to focus on Conclave the ability to progress largely or perhaps even almost entirely via Conclave if that's what they want to do.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on it.

[Kontrollo]

Some very good points there, I want to comment especially on this one:

49 minutes ago, Foefaller said:

...

I know some experimentation is going to be a thing for PvP, but I wonder if you would get more people through the door if instead PvE weapons became skins for a selection of Conclave weapon archetypes (with the option to make everyone else display the default weapon skin on your end so you don't have to memorize which weapons are what archetype, of course.) With Conclave mods perhaps expanded to make some of the current weapon stats possible. That would probably help with the devs to keep up with balancing too.

...

Totally get that, and it's a very valid concern. (I've seen suggestions in the Feedback section similar to this one more than I can remember, too.)

 

Ironically, they removed the one game mode that was balanced by definition, because there was only one weapon and all frames had the same stats. It was an instagib mode called Opticor Variant. And removed it was without a reason given.

Afaik, silence on that since then. This is of course just speculation, but it feels like some devs either don't understand what's important in PvP gameplay, or are actively trying to work against it for some unknown reason. Especially now after U26, which has badly #*!%ed up melee balance.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Kontrollo

[Teridax68]

5 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

Case in point, all that vitriol in the post right above mine. ☹️

This is an interesting attempt to displace blame, but putting aside how the post above yours responded to an even more vitriolic post made by one of your fellow Conclave mains, mine did in fact establish some grounded reasoning as to what the problem is with Conclave, and why there is a case to be made for removing it: put simply, Conclave is not well-designed, being near-universally recognized as such outside of its diehard fans, and its continued existence presents both an ongoing cost for DE, who has to continue supporting the mode, and continued anguish for its own playerbase, who is held eternally wanting something more or better than what it is, and ever will be. In general, when a bit of game design is deemed to be poor, the way to go is to either improve that feature if it can, or excise it if it can't. Given all we've seen of Conclave, it is almost certain at this point that it falls into the latter category, as even if it were made perfect (by whichever standard one wishes to set), it would be unlikely to generate much traction within the Warframe playerbase. It would therefore save everyone a lot of time and pain if DE pulled the plug once and for all, as happened with Trials. As with the latter, it is almost certain it'll generate a short-term wave of backlash that will taper off within a few months.

[Kontrollo]

You know, I could go and pick that post of yours apart like you do with everything you encounter. Because there quite a few points in there that I think are on a scale from exaggeration to outright falsehoods.

Want to know why I don't? You've shown previously that you're a poor sport when it comes to having a proper debate. So I'd rather spend my time with something productive instead.

 

P.S.

46 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

This is an interesting attempt to displace blame, but putting aside how the post above yours responded to an even more vitriolic post made by one of your fellow Conclave mains, mine did in fact establish some grounded reasoning as to what the problem is with Conclave, and why there is a case to be made for removing it: put simply, Conclave is not well-designed, being near-universally recognized as such outside of its diehard fans, and its continued existence presents both an ongoing cost for DE, who has to continue supporting the mode, and continued anguish for its own playerbase, who is held eternally wanting something more or better than what it is, and ever will be. ...

 That's a lot of salt in a single sentence.

[Teridax68]

1 hour ago, Kontrollo said:

You know, I could go and pick that post of yours apart like you do with everything you encounter. Because there quite a few points in there that I think are on a scale from exaggeration to outright falsehoods.

Want to know why I don't? You've shown previously that you're a poor sport when it comes to having a proper debate. So I'd rather spend my time with something productive instead.

Or, alternatively, you don't have any actual counter-arguments, other than to attack my character in a feeble attempt to discredit me. Your accusations of me being a "poor sport" in a debate are themselves not only false, as demonstrated by my using actual evidence and arguments in support of my points, but hypocritical, given your own posting history, or even just your posts on this thread.

Quote

P.S.

 That's a lot of salt in a single sentence.

Or, rather, salt on your part at me apparently having struck a nerve. I fail to see how one could describe as "salty" the assessment that Conclave is unpopular among the Warframe playerbase, that it presents a continued developer resource cost, or that it has generated a heap of requests from Conclave mains and non-mains alike, demanding a whole bunch of improvements to the mode that have proven unlikely to ever happen. These are facts, not salt, and you appear to be blithely unaware of the irony of attributing such to me when your own post is literally nothing but a personal attack. You may not have the ability or willingness to "pick apart" my post, or even answer any of its substance at all, but still think you can hold an argument without any actual arguments to make. Meanwhile I can answer you point-by-point, not just because I believe that is the correct and respectful thing to do in a civilized debate, but simply because this sort of exchange just boils down to basic logic most of the time, and isn't a difficult task to do if one puts in even a modicum of effort or discipline.

Edited December 4, 2019 by Teridax68

[Kontrollo]

15 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Or, alternatively, you don't have any actual counter-arguments, other than to attack my character in a feeble attempt to discredit me. ...

Alright, I'll indulge you, since you asked so nicely (heh).

 

But first, let me ask you one thing.

On 2019-12-01 at 7:35 PM, (XB1)Longfinger LOKI said:

Oh, I know! Maybe it's because the game was never actually "ninjas in space" to begin with, does not feature an ounce of ninja gameplay in PvP even if it did, ...

What, in your opinion, is the game about then? Please be comprehensive.

[Teridax68]

19 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

What, in your opinion, is the game about then? Please be comprehensive.

I think at its barest core, the game is about adventuring through space with absolute freedom through powerful, versatile, and elite avatars. More concretely, I think the core elements of Warframe are the parkour, the gunplay, and the warframe abilities, all of which combine to give us this power fantasy that we enact upon a limitless array of opponents in diverse settings. While we sometimes deal with powerful enemies, I think the fundamental idea behind Warframe is that we incarnate this incredibly strong range of mystical warriors, whose skills and abilities allow us to outsmart, outpace, and outgun the opposition. In this respect, I'd say the game also does a pretty good job of making us feel like we have plenty of agency, and giving us that feeling of power.

However, this is also one of the key reasons why I think PvP doesn't quite work in Warframe, because all of this freedom and power, which at its core is designed to convey dominance, tends to degenerate when turned against itself: swooping over enemies and getting a bunch of headshots in a single aim-glide after a bullet jump works in PvE because we're fast and enemies are slow, but when it's two people fighting each other while able to parkour at lightning speed, the results are less than pleasant to most, as noted by some players' literally visceral reactions to high-level PvP movement, and the noted abuse of the Ignis, a weapon whose defining trait is its ability to not need too much aim to have an effect. There's also a fundamental difference in pressure and experience: PvE may offer some more challenging encounters (or at least try to), but much of it is content a player can log onto, and have a fairly relaxing time with, with complete failure being uncommon, and so deliberately by design. PvP, by contrast, is a much more intense experience, and will inevitably end up with at least half the players in a match losing, sometimes without making any headway if they're particularly new. As such, whereas PvE just lets the player have a good, often fairly easy time, PvP is discouraging to many, which would be absolutely okay in a game marketed towards PvP or really hardcore players, but isn't for Warframe, which does no such thing.

TL;DR: Warframe by and large is a game that banks on agency, a power fantasy, and accessibility (at least, once the player clears the initial monstrous learning/complexity curve). Conclave, by contrast, has a different core set of values, which place high emphasis on a very specific skillset that cannot be easily acquired on entry, and sacrifices Warframe's key selling points due to a need for balance and competitive play (or, at least, an attempt towards both). It is therefore not surprising that the mode is unpopular, because even when we put aside its other many technical, balance, and design problems, Conclave simply doesn't play by the same book as the rest of Warframe. If a developer designed an entirely separate game with a similar ruleset to Conclave, it would likely find more success (assuming its core gameplay were made accessible enough to newer players, anyway), but as it stands it's a game attached to Warframe that is a poor fit for most of the players who sign up for its main content.

[Kontrollo]

Leaving the rest aside for the moment:

On 2019-12-04 at 7:57 PM, Teridax68 said:

... I think the core elements of Warframe are the parkour, the gunplay, and the warframe abilities, all of which combine to give us this power fantasy that we enact upon a limitless array of opponents in diverse settings. ...

At least the first two are fully preserved in Conclave, it's what it is all about,even. And it's unique among shooters, I'd say -- or at least I don't know any other game that combines high velocity parkour and gunplay in this fashion. The third one has shown to be problematic, because wide AoE oneshots, aimbots, etc. don't mix too well in an environment where balance is paramount.

So back to my statement, and why I said "that I think are on a scale from exaggeration to outright falsehoods":

On 2019-12-03 at 7:28 PM, Teridax68 said:

... so have a sufficient idea of how it plays. ...

No, in truth, you simply don't. Just stating that you see no difference between the "kind of random flopping about" in these two clips speaks to your inexperience.

And by the way, I'm trying to say that in the most non-offensive way possible. It's also not 'a problem with you' that you don't 'get' that, because PvE doesn't require us to use parkour at all, except to go fast and look cool.

 

On 2019-11-27 at 11:18 PM, Teridax68 said:

... the game was never actually "ninjas in space" to begin with, does not feature an ounce of ninja gameplay in PvP even if it did, and has core mechanics that do not lend themselves to PvP ...

On 2019-12-04 at 7:57 PM, Teridax68 said:

... sacrifices Warframe's key selling points due to a need for balance and competitive play (or, at least, an attempt towards both).

Parkour and gunplay are the major draw of this mode, and there's nothing out there that quite compares to it. Abilities had to be adjusted to work in this setting, but they tried to keep them in spirit of their PvE counterparts wherever possible. => This is false. The mode is all about Space Ninja gameplay.

 

On 2019-12-03 at 7:28 PM, Teridax68 said:

Except DE's in charge of Conclave, and Conclave hardly gets updated enough for its meta to change quickly for the better. The fact remains that even you admit Conclave's balancing is terrible, and nothing seems to suggest that will improve.

They do nothing at all anymore. PvE changes bleed into Conclave and Lunaro because they aren't entirely separated. The devs don't even fix all the bugs. This statement of yours is misinformed at best and dishonest at worst.

 

I could go on, but that's enough to back up my statement and clear me of your accusation, I'd say. ("Or, alternatively, you don't have any actual counter-arguments, other than to attack my character in a feeble attempt to discredit me.")

 

 

On 2019-12-04 at 7:57 PM, Teridax68 said:

TL;DR: Warframe by and large is a game that banks on agency, a power fantasy, and accessibility (at least, once the player clears the initial monstrous learning/complexity curve). Conclave, by contrast, has a different core set of values, which place high emphasis on a very specific skillset that cannot be easily acquired on entry, and sacrifices Warframe's key selling points due to a need for balance and competitive play (or, at least, an attempt towards both). It is therefore not surprising that the mode is unpopular, because even when we put aside its other many technical, balance, and design problems, Conclave simply doesn't play by the same book as the rest of Warframe. If a developer designed an entirely separate game with a similar ruleset to Conclave, it would likely find more success (assuming its core gameplay were made accessible enough to newer players, anyway), but as it stands it's a game attached to Warframe that is a poor fit for most of the players who sign up for its main content.

Now overall this is a valid opinion to have, so no complaints there.

But I disagree because I think it's simply narrow minded. We also have in the game: space battles, mining, skateboarding, fishing, submersible combat, mid-air dog fights, looking for random sh*t on the map, big boss battles, mini games, a sport, and a lot of other minor things.

But only PvP can't work for some reason? Weird. Other games can pull it off just fine, though.

Edited December 5, 2019 by Kontrollo

[Teridax68]

16 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

Leaving the rest aside for the moment:

At least the first two are fully preserved in Conclave, it's what it is all about,even.

Sure, except even in that respect the core parkour and shooting are designed for PvE combat, as described further below in my post. Conclave thus attempts to take PvE systems and integrate them into a PvP format without really understanding why that doesn't quite work.

Quote

And it's unique among shooters, I'd say -- or at least I don't know any other game that combines high velocity parkour and gunplay in this fashion.

Mainly because the formula isn't exactly a winning one, unless both your parkour and your gunplay are specifically designed with PvP in mind. I agree it's a relatively unexplored niche, but it's also not one Warframe can be said to have explored particularly well, either.

Quote

The third one has shown to be problematic, because wide AoE oneshots, aimbots, etc. don't mix too well in an environment where balance is paramount.

Along with the first two, yes, I completely agree here.

Quote

So back to my statement, and why I said "that I think are on a scale from exaggeration to outright falsehoods":

No, in truth, you simply don't. Just stating that you see no difference between the "kind of random flopping about" in these two clips speaks to your inexperience.

Then what is the difference, pray tell? In the end, I've played thousands hours of Warframe proper, and none of what I saw in those clips had any relevance to the game I've been playing. I'm not the only one with this impression, and I wasn't even the one with the strongest reaction here. In the end, it does not matter what the details of the flopping even are, in both cases the movement at hand proves that Warframe's parkour is ill-suited to PvP, as it is as ugly-looking as it is impenetrable to any sane player.

Quote

And by the way, I'm trying to say that in the most non-offensive way possible.

You aren't, and really have no business pretending, given your prior posts here.

Quote

It's also not 'a problem with you' that you don't 'get' that, because PvE doesn't require us to use parkour at all, except to go fast and look cool.

This in itself speaks to your inexperience with PvE, as anyone who plays Warframe to any reasonable extent knows full well how important speed is to gameplay. The videos themselves also demonstrate just how little resemblance there is between the way players move between the two modes, despite using the same system. In this respect, we are talking to each other here as if we came from two different games, which is essentially the case.

Quote

Parkour and gunplay are the major draw of this mode, and there's nothing out there that quite compares to it. Abilities had to be adjusted to work in this setting, but they tried to keep them in spirit of their PvE counterparts wherever possible. => This is false. The mode is all about Space Ninja gameplay.

You are literally doing nothing here except argue by assertion. Refer to the above where I point out how the abilities play nothing like they do in PvE (even you admitted to this), or how the very notion of "Space Ninja gameplay" has been a myth in Warframe since its initial release.

Quote

They do nothing at all anymore. PvE changes bleed into Conclave and Lunaro because they aren't entirely separated. The devs don't even fix all the bugs. This statement of yours is misinformed at best and dishonest at worst.

How is the statement "misinformed at best and dishonest at worst" when you've just confirmed what I've said? Not only are you visibly throwing vitriol my way out of frustration, you don't even seem to understand what words even mean when doing so.

Quote

I could go on, but that's enough to back up my statement and clear me of your accusation, I'd say. ("Or, alternatively, you don't have any actual counter-arguments, other than to attack my character in a feeble attempt to discredit me.")

But again, you just proved me right: what you just produced is an anemic list of unsupported statements that have already been disproven by arguments made prior on this thread, which themselves used arguments and video evidence. You really do not have any actual counter-arguments, not when your best shot is the internet equivalent of a kid sticking their fingers in their ears and chanting.

Quote

Now overall this is a valid opinion to have, so no complaints there.

But I disagree because I think it's simply narrow minded. We also have in the game: space battles, mining, skateboarding, fishing, submersible combat, mid-air dog fights, looking for random sh*t on the map, big boss battles, mini games, a sport, and a lot of other minor things.

But only PvP can't work for some reason? Weird. Other games can pull it off just fine, though.

Yes, because PvP has proven not to work. The rest have, and those that haven't have made themselves known: DE just got done reworking Archwing because its control scheme had been lambasted since the mode's release, and that worked because Archwing's problems were fixable. DE took out Trials because the ones we had were deemed unfit for purpose, and who knows when they're coming back. You act as if DE doesn't rework or even remove content on a regular basis, under the strange and blatantly biased notion that PvP is somehow the exception to all this, when it is infamously exceptional in Warframe for all the wrong reasons. It isn't "narrow-minded" to point out that PvP in Warframe has never worked and has given plenty of evidence to suggest it never will work, but it is certainly feeble to make that sort of accusation on such flimsy comparisons, let alone make strictly no suggestion for how to make PvP in Warframe actually successful.

Edited December 6, 2019 by Teridax68

[Gaming_Enjoyer]

Can it be done? Yeah

Will it be done? Probably not. 

I had this idea the other day. Basically turn every Warframe into a hero class type of thing, with each one having restricted ability usage(1 per frame, cool down) and set weapon load outs(Excalibur has braton, lato and skana). Bullet jumping is disabled and there are bounce pads around the map for vertical traversal. I think this idea would make for a fun PvP activity, though balancing the weapons and frames would take alot of excess work on DE's part. It should also reward you with items for the main game, like catalysts for example, for new and old players alike. New players will also have the advantage of not having to set up builds, since the mode has set character and weapon stats, so skill will be the difference between a new player and a veteran instead of the cluttered mess that is the modding system. 

Edited December 7, 2019 by SophoclesD

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

19 minutes ago, SophoclesD said:

Can it be done? Yeah

Will it be done? Probably not. 

I had this idea the other day. Basically turn every Warframe into a hero class type of thing, with each one having restricted ability usage(1 per frame, cool down) and set weapon load outs(Excalibur has braton, lato and skana). Bullet jumping is disabled and there are bounce pads around the map for vertical traversal. I think this idea would make for a fun PvP activity, though balancing the weapons and frames would take alot of excess work on DE's part. It should also reward you with items for the main game, like catalysts for example, for new and old players alike. New players will also have the advantage of not having to set up builds, since the mode has set character and weapon stats, so skill will be the difference between a new player and a veteran instead of the cluttered mess that is the modding system. 

and what, pray tell, is the issue with conclave's modding system? I know you have played conclave for a truly significant time given your view of conclave's modding system. Given your experience with conclave, you should be able to tell me what is wrong with it.

Edited December 7, 2019 by (XB1)The Repo Man151

[Kaizal]

On 2019-11-17 at 9:38 AM, Lost_Cartographer said:

This is the truth of the matter.  Players are insanely competitive even in the PvE space, PvP would just flood the forums with people complaining about weapon and frame balance.  There is also the issue of the higher the skill ceiling and skill floor, the more likely PvP will cannibalize itself, and Warframe's is actually insanely high.  There's a reason CoD's player base hated those CoD's that allowed wall running, jetpacks, etc.  They just wanted to run around on the ground, ADS to hit anything while moving at a crawl, make a few easy kills, and feel like they're any good at shooters.  People that feel like they're getting stomped on all the time will inevitably quit for good.

Then we also have to consider that most gamers anymore seem to play a game more for rewards than the actual game play, and so you've got a whole different horde of players screaming whenever desirable rewards are dropped into the PvP segment of a dominantly PvE game, or if the PvP rewards reward power such that long time players have clear advantages over newer players, or what have you.

I think all you sat its problematic, but for example the balance problem simply does not exist for Lunaro, and it still failed, I still think by far the biggest problem is the absence of dedicate servers, on PvP ping becomes a big issue and the ping for Conclave is much higher than I would need it to be playable.

[Paradoxity]

50 minutes ago, Kaizal said:

I think all you sat its problematic, but for example the balance problem simply does not exist for Lunaro, and it still failed, I still think by far the biggest problem is the absence of dedicate servers, on PvP ping becomes a big issue and the ping for Conclave is much higher than I would need it to be playable.

That may have something to do with it, yeah, but honestly it still seems like most of it is there's just no interest in PvP as a thing. I suspect most players would be just as happy letting DE sink all their effort into PvE.

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

20 hours ago, Paradoxity said:

That may have something to do with it, yeah, but honestly it still seems like most of it is there's just no interest in PvP as a thing. I suspect most players would be just as happy letting DE sink all their effort into PvE.

How is there no interest in PvP in warframe? There is a conclave discord with over 2,000 people in it. There are multiple threads about PvP in general discussion right now.

[Paradoxity]

1 hour ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

How is there no interest in PvP in warframe? There is a conclave discord with over 2,000 people in it. There are multiple threads about PvP in general discussion right now.

Dude, it's either one or the other. Either PvP is dying from lack of player participation or PvP has a vibrant healthy community. 

Given how  often we hear about how DE needs to fix PvP because it's a buggy, empty mess with long wait times in public matches, I'm inclined to think it's the first one. 

[Kontrollo]

On 2019-12-06 at 12:05 AM, Teridax68 said:

Sure, except even in that respect the core parkour and shooting are designed for PvE combat, as described further below in my post. Conclave thus attempts to take PvE systems and integrate them into a PvP format without really understanding why that doesn't quite work.

However, it does work, and it's great. At least for those who are willing to pick it up.

But I think I see the fundamental problem here. As a bad analogy: "how do I explain a fish the concept of a bird?"

On 2019-12-06 at 12:05 AM, Teridax68 said:

Then what is the difference, pray tell? In the end, I've played thousands hours of Warframe proper, and none of what I saw in those clips had any relevance to the game I've been playing.

In a nutshell, the difference is that "random flopping around" in Conclave won't win you any games against good players. You have to be able to move, evade, aim, shoot. That's what this Space Ninja combat is all about. Of course, PvE doesn't really prepare you for that. So again, not surprised you don't see any difference in those clips even with thousands of hours in the game. But I'd say that's a strength of this game -- it caters to a wide variety of people and playstyles.

 

The rest of your post looks like the usual we get from you, so again, not going to indulge that.

 

1 hour ago, Paradoxity said:

...

Given how  often we hear about how DE needs to fix PvP because it's a buggy, empty mess with long wait times in public matches, I'm inclined to think it's the first one. 

Or maybe it's because of it being a mess due to lack of dev attention that the people who'd like to play it are right now just waiting for something to be done about it? Would you call e.g. the following gameplay that is fun?

Spoiler

 

 

[Paradoxity]

12 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

Or maybe it's because of it being a mess due to lack of dev attention that the people who'd like to play it are right now just waiting for something to be done about it? Would you call e.g. the following gameplay that is fun?

Doubt it. 

If Conclave had proven popular at the beginning, I'm sure DE would have spent at least a little effort on it. It took them 2 years between open beta becoming a thing and Conclave entering the game, and clearly it didn't hurt them, nor has their ignoring it since hurt them. 

[Kontrollo]

3 minutes ago, Paradoxity said:

Doubt it. 

If Conclave had proven popular at the beginning, I'm sure DE would have spent at least a little effort on it. It took them 2 years between open beta becoming a thing and Conclave entering the game, and clearly it didn't hurt them, nor has their ignoring it since hurt them. 

Yet, people clamour Content Drought! from about two weeks onward even after a big update. Meanwhile those of us who also like PvP are just going back to that.

Well, not now of course. Because with all the issues it had before, it was at least still somewhat enjoyable. Now it's just full-on cheese most of the time, and good games are few and far between.

 

Hint: It doesn't have to be popular with everybody to be successful. Also, despite all their flaws, I'd say the Solar Rail Conflicts and the few Conclave events were somewhat popular, too.