Do you think PVP can be successful ?

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

1 minute ago, (XB1)Chroma Prime said:

Didn't you get placed in masters during one season on For Honor?

Sure did. Thanks to my time spent in conclave.

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

6 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

No more than any other game that has the same demands, which is virtually any 3D shooter. Your job here was to make the case for Conclave's specific skillset having carry-over to Warframe or other games: so far, not only have you failed to do so in comedic fashion, your lack of even the slightest amount of detail in describing the skills fostered by Conclave leads me to believe you may not even know what the Conclave skillset even entails.

It's as simple as what I said. Because conclave demands more from me in speed, aim, and practice than any other game, its made me a better player. I don't see how it can get any simpler than that.

[Teridax68]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

It's as simple as what I said. Because conclave demands more from me in speed, aim, and practice than any other game, its made me a better player. I don't see how it can get any simpler than that.

But that's the problem: it's too simple, and because you have consistently failed to give any specifics as to what makes Conclave, over any other game or even the rest of Warframe, able to provide any sort of unique skill contribution that carries over to any other game, you have effectively told the internet that Conclave offers no meaningful carry-over to Warframe or any other game. According to you, anyone could safely ignore Conclave forever, and develop the same skillset from any other shooter, including Warframe PvE. That's not really making a good case for Conclave.

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

1 minute ago, Teridax68 said:

But that's the problem: it's too simple, and because you have consistently failed to give any specifics as to what makes Conclave, over any other game or even the rest of Warframe, able to provide any sort of unique skill contribution that carries over to any other game, you have effectively told the internet that Conclave offers no meaningful carry-over to Warframe or any other game. According to you, anyone could safely ignore Conclave forever, and develop the same skillset from any other shooter, including Warframe PvE. That's not really making a good case for Conclave.

Conclave is just more demanding of those skills because of the high mobility of the players and the pace of the game. Exceedingly few games allow players the same freedom of movement that warframe does.

[Teridax68]

Just now, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

Conclave is just more demanding of those skills because of the high mobility of the players and the pace of the game. Exceedingly few games allow players the same freedom of movement that warframe does.

... which simply means that Conclave is even less apt at carrying its skillset over, and as stated above, its higher demand has no meaningful impact on performance even in Warframe PvE.

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

Just now, Teridax68 said:

... which simply means that Conclave is even less apt at carrying its skillset over, and as stated above, its higher demand has no meaningful impact on performance even in Warframe PvE.

I think that says more about PvE being too easy than it says about skills developed in Conclave carrying over into other games.

[Teridax68]

Just now, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

I think that says more about PvE being too easy than it says about skills developed in Conclave carrying over into other games.

The end result is the same, though: Conclave fails to provide any substantial contribution to the rest of Warframe, and is ill-suited to contribute to other games due to the specifics of its movement. QED.

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

1 minute ago, Teridax68 said:

The end result is the same, though: Conclave fails to provide any substantial contribution to the rest of Warframe, and is ill-suited to contribute to other games due to the specifics of its movement. QED.

So you are saying that because PvE is so easy that it requires no movement from the player beyond reaching abstraction and no aim from the player beyond moving their camera to the general direction of the enemies that conclave does not carry over into other games?

[Teridax68]

Just now, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

So you are saying that because PvE is so easy that it requires no movement from the player beyond reaching abstraction and no aim from the player beyond moving their camera to the general direction of the enemies that conclave does not carry over into other games?

... yes? PvE need not be so brainlessly easy as your elitist mini-rant here frames it for the point to be valid, either: putting aside your desperate attempts to assign value judgments to PvE in order to lord Conclave over it, at the end of the day even you are implicitly admitting here that PvP has nothing to contribute to PvE.

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

1 minute ago, Teridax68 said:

... yes? PvE need not be so brainlessly easy as your elitist mini-rant here frames it for the point to be valid, either: putting aside your desperate attempts to assign value judgments to PvE in order to lord Conclave over it, at the end of the day even you are implicitly admitting here that PvP has nothing to contribute to PvE.

PvE really is that easy though. Ive seen my 3 year old nephew play arbitrations for a good while one afternoon.

[Teridax68]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

PvE really is that easy though. Ive seen my 3 year old nephew play arbitrations for a good while one afternoon.

... good for him, I guess? Again, there is literally no reason to take you on your word for anything you say, as you clearly have an agenda in mind and have shown yourself ready to say absolutely anything to push it, but in this particular case you're not even helping your situation, as your snubbing of PvE here itself also demonstrates the very elitist attitude that's been often pointed out of the Conclave community.

Edited December 16, 2019 by Teridax68

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

6 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

... good for him, I guess? Again, there is literally no reason to take you on your word for anything you say, as you clearly have an agenda in mind and have shown yourself ready to say absolutely anything to push it, but in this particular case you're not even helping your situation, as your snubbing of PvE here itself also demonstrates the very elitist attitude that's been often pointed out of the Conclave community.

Just by saying PvE is easy I am an elitist?

[Teridax68]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

Just by saying PvE is easy I am an elitist?

... yes? You only just got done saying how it was apparently so easy a literal three year old could play it.

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

4 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

... yes? You only just got done saying how it was apparently so easy a literal three year old could play it.

How does acknowledging that the game is easy make me an elitist?

[Teridax68]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

How does acknowledging that the game is easy make me an elitist?

Because you are falsely downplaying the challenge it offers in an attempt to raise Conclave up. The saddest part of this is that in doing so, you've effectively argued against the point you were trying to prove, which is that Conclave was capable of meaningfully contributing to Warframe through skill carry-over. In other words, not only is your attitude here elitist, it is so deeply-ingrained that you could not stop yourself from sabotaging your own defense of Conclave when displaying it. Just... oof.

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

Just now, Teridax68 said:

Because you are falsely downplaying the challenge it offers in an attempt to raise Conclave up. The saddest part of this is that in doing so, you've effectively argued against the point you were trying to prove, which is that Conclave was capable of meaningfully contributing to Warframe through skill carry-over. In other words, not only is your attitude here elitist, it is so deeply-ingrained that you could not stop yourself from sabotaging your own defense of Conclave when displaying it. Just... oof.

How is PvE difficult? The most effort I put into PvE is thinking about the optimal cheese build to bring into any specific mission. The most difficult thing I have ever done in PvE was the grind for the opticor vandal, wherein the difficulty was in not falling asleep.

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

19 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Because you are falsely downplaying the challenge it offers in an attempt to raise Conclave up. The saddest part of this is that in doing so, you've effectively argued against the point you were trying to prove, which is that Conclave was capable of meaningfully contributing to Warframe through skill carry-over. In other words, not only is your attitude here elitist, it is so deeply-ingrained that you could not stop yourself from sabotaging your own defense of Conclave when displaying it. Just... oof.

 

16 minutes ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

How is PvE difficult? The most effort I put into PvE is thinking about the optimal cheese build to bring into any specific mission. The most difficult thing I have ever done in PvE was the grind for the opticor vandal, wherein the difficulty was in not falling asleep.

I think I get where both of you are coming from. Even before I actively played conclave, I considered the game to be incredibly easy, and thought that it was ridiculous that people found it difficult. I still think that to some degree, but only when an easy solution to an issue is made clear. (With exceptions) Otherwise, I can be a lot more understanding of the challenges that people have.

The game is super easy, because so long as you have the right source info for builds, strategy, and maybe throw in some teammates with the same in some instances, there's a very high margin for error. On the other hand though, we still have a lot of players who think weapons like Arca Plasmor are the most efficient to get kills with, and I can't really say it's their fault. People don't wanna do a bunch of math or hours of experiments on their whole arsenal to figure put what actually works best, especially when serious players have very few challenges. Like, someone might struggle with a sortie survival, but after a few tries they can get matched with a squad that can help them complete it, while they may only deal 10%damage, for example. Players don't have to be self sufficient nor efficient to get what they need done, and that's not necessarily leeching either, so...

Yeah. The game is easy when you know how to make it easy, but I think players struggle, because they can afford to. They can either get kinda lucky with random squads, or have that one elite friend who can just beat anything challenging for them. Then when that challenge is restricted to something like, level 80+ armored enemies or whatever, it's unlikely to be a daily issue, then when it is, many players can cooperate with friends of their effectiveness level, or just get carried by a friend. If that's not an option, random squads generally have a high chance at carrying as well. Putting focus into improvement just may not be worth it.

[HelloItIsIJimbles]

PVP will need a solid rework to be viable. It think it needs to reward something worthwhile so people are encouraged to play and needs to have some sort of mechanic to help it compete with other games.

As it stands now the last few times I have tried to play there was either nobody else playing or I could not connect. When it did finally put me in a match there was only 2 people dominating the map while the rest of the people only had one or two kills. I had a bit of fun trying to make some sort of build to compete with the two guys but after a few attempts I just wasn't good enough and everyone else kind of left. I then had a few other games where there was one person just killing everyone and the rest of us had no idea how to beat him. Id love to learn how to git gud at some conclave but its just kind of hard to justify trying to compete with them when there are so many other fun pvp games out there to play. 

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

1 minute ago, HelloItIsIJimbles said:

PVP will need a solid rework to be viable. It think it needs to reward something worthwhile so people are encouraged to play and needs to have some sort of mechanic to help it compete with other games.

As it stands now the last few times I have tried to play there was either nobody else playing or I could not connect. When it did finally put me in a match there was only 2 people dominating the map while the rest of the people only had one or two kills. I had a bit of fun trying to make some sort of build to compete with the two guys but after a few attempts I just wasn't good enough and everyone else kind of left. I then had a few other games where there was one person just killing everyone and the rest of us had no idea how to beat him. Id love to learn how to git gud at some conclave but its just kind of hard to justify trying to compete with them when there are so many other fun pvp games out there to play. 

So, to be clear, you had difficulty finding a match (which could range from region to ping limit to even rc issues)? Okay, thats fair.

It can be tough to beat players that have been playing conclave for years, I don't think anyone will dispute that. If you do seek to get better at conclave and even meet others that are interested in the mode, I recommend you join the conclave discord.

[latetier]

wait wait wait...successful again?

when was it successful exactly?

[(XBOX)Chroma Prime]

1 hour ago, latetier said:

wait wait wait...successful again?

when was it successful exactly?

Let's not confuse successful with greatness. Justin Bieber was successful, but not great. Fortnite was successful, but not great.

[Furebel]

Warframe Forums is the real PVP

[Teridax68]

6 hours ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

How is PvE difficult? The most effort I put into PvE is thinking about the optimal cheese build to bring into any specific mission. The most difficult thing I have ever done in PvE was the grind for the opticor vandal, wherein the difficulty was in not falling asleep.

Even with cheese builds, unless you're playing Inaros you're going to have to know how to use the Operator properly to avoid dying to excessively high enemy burst damage, and also need to manage your abilities far more actively than in Conclave. PvE does struggle in providing diversity of challenge, but to call it completely unchallenging is neither true nor fair, and only undermines your point while highlighting an attitude problem core to the Conclave community.

6 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Then when that challenge is restricted to something like, level 80+ armored enemies or whatever, it's unlikely to be a daily issue, then when it is, many players can cooperate with friends of their effectiveness level, or just get carried by a friend. If that's not an option, random squads generally have a high chance at carrying as well. Putting focus into improvement just may not be worth it.

Except 80+ armored enemies are in fact the kinds of enemies high-level players are pushed to deal with most often, via Sorties, Arbitrations, Kuva Liches now, and so on. For sure, the game at low levels is unchallenging, but once difficulty scaling ramps up, there is a question of constantly monitoring one's health bar to make sure it doesn't plummet too quickly. While it's easy for any single player to get carried (which can be said for team PvP as well), more even than Conclave, PvE allows individual players to carry their entire team through good play as well, such as when someone really good at Spy missions sorts out the Grineer Sealab, Kuva Fortress, or Corpus Gas City vaults where most would struggle. That's a clear case of players showing skill, and looking at how both the PvP people have been framing difficulty so far, part of the disagreement may lie with this incredibly narrow definition of challenge and difficulty, one that hinges upon making the player fail a certain number of times. Warframe isn't that game, and thankfully so, as while its difficulty curve is far from perfect, it does manage to provide entertaining and stimulating gameplay without trying to be some Soulsborne or hardcore PvP game.

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

4 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Except 80+ armored enemies are in fact the kinds of enemies high-level players are pushed to deal with most often, via Sorties, Arbitrations, Kuva Liches now, and so on. For sure, the game at low levels is unchallenging, but once difficulty scaling ramps up, there is a question of constantly monitoring one's health bar to make sure it doesn't plummet too quickly. While it's easy for any single player to get carried (which can be said for team PvP as well), more even than Conclave, PvE allows individual players to carry their entire team through good play as well, such as when someone really good at Spy missions sorts out the Grineer Sealab, Kuva Fortress, or Corpus Gas City vaults where most would struggle. That's a clear case of players showing skill, and looking at how both the PvP people have been framing difficulty so far, part of the disagreement may lie with this incredibly narrow definition of challenge and difficulty, one that hinges upon making the player fail a certain number of times. Warframe isn't that game, and thankfully so, as while its difficulty curve is far from perfect, it does manage to provide entertaining and stimulating gameplay without trying to be some Soulsborne or hardcore PvP game.

Not really. You find those enemies in about half of sortie 3 missions, and sometimes it's a mission type like rescue where fighting against them is really unnecessary. (That's where invisibility makes things easy, since you'll have to worry little to none about damage.) Assuming you do sorties daily, they'll give you that challenge about every 2 days, at most, which is then further reduced by teammates, as I said before. Arbritations and farming kuva are sorta similar, although that's just about as often as you want to play them. (I sorta question how much players are really pushed to play those modes, partly since I don't have much personal motivation to play them myself, but I don't know if there's much of an objective way to do that.)

Even before/without accounting for allies though, those challenges can be easily reduced. For example, someone may wanna spend only half of their 2 or so hours of free time farming kuva, it's easy and often even efficient to avoid certain kuva flood mission types like survival or mobile defense, for example. Similar applies to arbritations. Beyond that, for most, if not all mission types, there is gear which is well enough suited for it to make the mission easy. Like, assuming you have a weapon able to deal enough damage, on invisibility makes survival really easy. (Unless something messes up with the spawns, the biggest challenge in that really is paying attention, so that your invisibility doesn't run out unexpectedly.) So on the example of spy missions, it can be done with skill, but I think it's generally done with Ivara. There's that 1 archwing sealab vault that's an exception, but just about every other vault is easily done with Ivara. Granted, I haven't seen gas city vaults since that's been changed, and it's been much longer since I touched Lua spy, so there may be exceptions there too.

I think this really comes down to how easy it is to remove a challenge from a situation. If you play the hame with generalized or randomized loadouts, I think there will generally be decent challenge. If you have the right gear or allies for the job though, that's when the challenge will go away. The right stuff to use is generally available, and when it's not, weather it be the right player or the right gear, it becomes a matter of either waiting for said player or acquiring said gear. (Eidolons aren't necessarily the best example, but one of the most clear cut, because of amps. If you have a Mote Amp or something, you can get carried through fighting them, farm for a better amp, or both at the same time.)

[Teridax68]

25 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Not really. You find those enemies in about half of sortie 3 missions, and sometimes it's a mission type like rescue where fighting against them is really unnecessary. (That's where invisibility makes things easy, since you'll have to worry little to none about damage.) Assuming you do sorties daily, they'll give you that challenge about every 2 days, at most, which is then further reduced by teammates, as I said before. Arbritations and farming kuva are sorta similar, although that's just about as often as you want to play them. (I sorta question how much players are really pushed to play those modes, partly since I don't have much personal motivation to play them myself, but I don't know if there's much of an objective way to do that.)

But teammates will reduce the difficulty in any sort of game, and even then, that has no bearing on whether any individual player will be able to survive a hit unless someone's playing a support frame like Trinity. I also fail to see what the distinction is between Sorties and Arbitrations or Kuva farming, as you all play them as often as you want, with Sorties being capped harder than the latter two. No matter how you slice it, high-level PvE players face high-level enemies, capable of taking anyone down quickly if you're not paying attention.

25 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Even before/without accounting for allies though, those challenges can be easily reduced. For example, someone may wanna spend only half of their 2 or so hours of free time farming kuva, it's easy and often even efficient to avoid certain kuva flood mission types like survival or mobile defense, for example. Similar applies to arbritations. Beyond that, for most, if not all mission types, there is gear which is well enough suited for it to make the mission easy. Like, assuming you have a weapon able to deal enough damage, on invisibility makes survival really easy. (Unless something messes up with the spawns, the biggest challenge in that really is paying attention, so that your invisibility doesn't run out unexpectedly.) So on the example of spy missions, it can be done with skill, but I think it's generally done with Ivara. There's that 1 archwing sealab vault that's an exception, but just about every other vault is easily done with Ivara. Granted, I haven't seen gas city vaults since that's been changed, and it's been much longer since I touched Lua spy, so there may be exceptions there too.

Except Kuva Flood will still require you to handle waves of high-level Grineer as you take down the siphon, and when it comes to Kuva Liches, the missions best-suited for Thrall farming tend to be the slightly longer ones. Even when you do make a conscious effort to reduce the difficulty through mission selection, it doesn't really reduce it by that much. Ivara also is nowhere near the most used frame for Sortie Spy vaults at this point in time, so I'm not quite sure where that's coming from, though the fact you haven't tried even a single Corpus Gas City vault suggests it's been some time since you've actually played, which would also explain the overall accuracy of your statements here.

25 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

I think this really comes down to how easy it is to remove a challenge from a situation. If you play the hame with generalized or randomized loadouts, I think there will generally be decent challenge. If you have the right gear or allies for the job though, that's when the challenge will go away. The right stuff to use is generally available, and when it's not, weather it be the right player or the right gear, it becomes a matter of either waiting for said player or acquiring said gear. (Eidolons aren't necessarily the best example, but one of the most clear cut, because of amps. If you have a Mote Amp or something, you can get carried through fighting them, farm for a better amp, or both at the same time.)

These are platitudes that could just as well be said for PvP, though, which is why the Ignis has become so popular. You are conflating the ability to tone down difficulty with baseline level of difficulty here, in a manner that ultimately says very little about difficulty in the game.