New toxic habit "Lich Greifing", Stab your lich please?

[Remedyheart]

So I've noticed a new toxic habit in public games where players are refusing to remove their liches from play for some strange reasons.

Despite players using common courtesy to request said stab attempts, players continue to threaten entire teams with banning and reports.

I find this highly unresonable despite every effort to kindly help them find a more efficient method of Lich Hunting. This ultinately affects a Lich Hunter's progress and is the slowest method of murmur farms I have ever tested.

Please. Let's be resonable and think about the players here. We all want to defeat our lichs but we can only do so together in cooperation.

This is not a thread for harrassing or insults. So I appreciate it if everyone keeps this civil. The Nemesis system we have would be so much smoother if everyone thought more about teamwork rather than individual rewards.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

Cos people can't bear to lose a revive lol. Too proud and stubborn.

[EDM774]

I think this tenno sums things up nicely:

  

9 minutes ago, AnOldAlias said:

~snip~

With some leaning on the, "I can play however I want, if I want to ignore my Lich in this public mission so be it! You can't tell me how to play! Stop being Selfish!" route.

And some leaning on the, "If you want to not deal with your Liches, either opt out of the system or play solo so you don't hinder anyone else's Lich Spawns! Stop being Selfish!"

~snip~there's been plenty example of toxicity either side, so. ~snip~

sorry for quoting you on another thread btw ^_^

[tyreens]

It is the fault of the mechanic and not of the players. 

[JackHargreav]

You will still get double #*!%ed if you stab the lich unprepared.

Get killed cause lolz, and the lich levels up. It was definitely worth it for a chance.

Also why are we not suggesting ways to fix this S#&$?

Telling others to go and #*!% up their progress is fine, but trying to come up with a solution to make the system better is out of question?

[cmacq]

and why do we need yet another thread on this topic? It's been beat to death already the ball is now in DE's court.

[Remedyheart]

4 minutes ago, EDM774 said:

I think this tenno sums things up nicely:

  

sorry for quoting you on another thread btw ^_^

 

Yeah it's sillt but ultimately it comes to the nature of the system its intended purpose and experience meant for all players.

Players ignore their lich because they can. Yet players who know how to benefit from stabbing their own while trying to help this player are left in the dirt.

I still take my ladder with the confused three who are kind enough to subdue my lich so I can stab it even when I didn't want to at first. I didn't understand but now I do and often take my attebtion and time away to side in another player's lich fight.

[Remedyheart]

1 minute ago, JackHargreav said:

You will still get double #*!%ed if you stab the lich unprepared.

Get killed cause lolz, and the lich levels up. It was definitely worth it for a chance.

Also why are we not suggesting ways to fix this S#&$?

Telling others to go and #*!% up their progress is fine, but trying to come up with a solution to make the system better is out of question?

Calm down. You're the only one angry here friend. Now why would you not want to stab a lich? I won't go into a debate but I'd like a civil view into why such an option is even considered alright.

Mind you I have 20 defeated on my belt and have tested out many methods. So please be honest and kind to other conversing with you.

[trst]

Some people want to farm converted Thralls; they get greifed by others spawn killing enemies around the Lich and people keeping the Lich "downed" where they're unable to convert enemies.

Some need Relics and would rather take the faster method of Thralls farming and don't want to needlessly level their Lich; their only other option is to  use a slower, more inconsistent, farming method.

Some don't have enough mods and don't want to stab their Lich without using a different mod; like the second group their only other option is to go to the slower farming method.

Some just don't want to level their Lich until they know the correct mods; they literally have no other option.

 

Also dying normally and not to a Lich attempt does despawn the Lich but this is often buggy, doesn't work if people are keeping the Lich downed, and telling someone to "stab or kys" is rude.

 

There are multiple, perfectly valid, methods for tackling Liches and the entire problem here is that some of these methods conflict with eachother. If the system doesn't get simplified and condensed to there being a single valid farming method for everyone then it just needs to go the way all pub interactions go: instead of trying to dictate how others should play those who take issue can deal with it, leave, go through recruiting, or play solo.

[JackHargreav]

1 minute ago, Remedyheart said:

Calm down. You're the only one angry here friend. Now why would you not want to stab a lich? I won't go into a debate but I'd like a civil view into why such an option is even considered alright.

Mind you I have 20 defeated on my belt and have tested out many methods. So please be honest and kind to other conversing with you.

I'm not i'm just cursing a lot. Both in real life and here.

That's something that I just do. In written form it seems like i'm angry as #*!% but nah not really.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

Player ignores lich - lich doesn't level up, player doesn't get murmur bonus and continues to gain murmur per thrall at a lesser rate than if they'd attempted to stab it and been incorrect.

Seems like no real point not to unless you're simply too weak to take on a higher level lich. Not to mention if you happen to guess right you will significantly decrease the amount of thralls you need to farm to kill that lich. And hey, who knows, you might guess all 3 correctly first time if you're really lucky.

[tyreens]

You cannot punish players for playing within the rules even if they are not 100% effective. The mechanic is just so bad designed that this mess is happening 

[Tsukinoki]

2 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Player ignores lich - lich doesn't level up, player doesn't get murmur bonus and continues to gain murmur per thrall at a lesser rate than if they'd attempted to stab it and been incorrect.

Depends really.
Since murmur gains don't "spill" from one word to the next if you need less than 10 murmurs to get the next word its simply not worth it to kill your lich.

For example: Say you need 5 murmurs to learn your first word and your lich spawns.  If you kill your lich it should get you past the first murmur and some progress into the second...except it doesn't.  It'll finish up your current word and then just stop.
And with how the lich aggro mechanics work at that point its actually better to ignore your lich, get 5 more thralls and spawn your lich in the next mission since its rage wouldn't have reset because you didn't attempt to vanquish it.  This nets you faster progress than just attempting to stab your lich right then and there.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

Just now, Tsukinoki said:

Depends really.
Since murmur gains don't "spill" from one word to the next if you need less than 10 murmurs to get the next word its simply not worth it to kill your lich.

For example: Say you need 5 murmurs to learn your first word and your lich spawns.  If you kill your lich it should get you past the first murmur and some progress into the second...except it doesn't.  It'll finish up your current word and then just stop.
And with how the lich aggro mechanics work at that point its actually better to ignore your lich, get 5 more thralls and spawn your lich in the next mission since its rage wouldn't have reset because you didn't attempt to vanquish it.  This nets you faster progress than just attempting to stab your lich right then and there.

I'm willing to bet less than 1% of the people not stabbing their lich are doing it due to this.

[Tsukinoki]

22 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

I'm willing to bet less than 1% of the people not stabbing their lich are doing it due to this.

I'm just answering you're "at a lesser rate" point.

I'm just tired of you and people like you going "ItS alLwaYS fAstER to StAb YoU'Re LiCH! AnD YoU'Re A tRoll/GrEIFer If YoU dOnT!!!"
When its in fact slower if you stab your lich during your first 2 words if you have less than 1/3rd of the murmurs left to grind out due to how long it can take your lich to respawn.  At that point its faster to ignore your lich, finish your word, and then stab the lich as it'll spawn a lot faster at the higher aggression points.

[enemystand]

I read somewhere that they are planning to add kuva after each lvl up of your lich, so if that get implemented i guess everybody will start stabbing their liches motivated by greed and addiction to kuva (unless they are not interested in kuva, because kuva is becoming the new nano spores, we get kuva everywhere)

[Paradoxity]

So, question for everyone here. 

Is refusing to stab the lich the same as leeching in PoE or orb? 

 

[BloodKitten]

for now, if a lich is on the field, extraction should be disabled, player will either need to stab the lich, or get downed a few times untill it leave if they dont want to level it up.

Edited November 18, 2019 by BloodKitten

[Aldain]

1 hour ago, JackHargreav said:

Also why are we not suggesting ways to fix this S#&$?

Because nobody wants to admit that DE -clem-ed up royal.

[DeMonkey]

1 hour ago, Remedyheart said:

I find this highly unresonable despite every effort to kindly help them find a more efficient method of Lich Hunting

I find the entire system highly unreasonable, and that's on DE, not the players.

Since when is it good game design to require players kill themselves over and over in trial and error? I'm sorry, I won't partake in that. I play video games for fun, not efficient farming, dying isn't fun and should be reserved for when I make a mistake, not because it's considered a requirement for progress, and potentially not even my own progress.

Frankly I think one of the biggest flaws in the system is that there's things to farm from it. There's potential for it being a lot more enjoyable if people weren't so desperate to get everything from it that the only thing that matters is efficiency.

3 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Because nobody wants to admit that DE -clem-ed up royal.

DE -clem-ed up royally.

[Aldain]

2 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Since when is it good game design to require players kill themselves over and over in trial and error? I'm sorry, I won't partake in that. I play video games for fun, not efficient farming, dying isn't fun and should be reserved for when I make a mistake, not because it's considered a requirement for progress, and potentially not even my own progress.

 

2 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

DE -clem-ed up royally.

Yep, its just that simple.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

39 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

I'm just answering you're "at a lesser rate" point.

I'm just tired of you and people like you going "ItS alLwaYS fAstER to StAb YoU'Re LiCH! AnD YoU'Re A tRoll/GrEIFer If YoU dOnT!!!"
When its in fact slower if you stab your lich during your first 2 words if you have less than 1/3rd of the murmurs left to grind out due to how long it can take your lich to respawn.  At that point its faster to ignore your lich, finish your word, and then stab the lich as it'll spawn a lot faster at the higher aggression points.

That's ok I'm tired of idiotic threads every update so i guess we both have things we have to simply deal with. I don't buy this stuff about the lich not showing up if you do cos almost every mission they show up for me although that could be down to me not being stupid enough to do missions that are going to slow down thrall farming. It's also worth noting that your murmur gain from the lich also increases with lich level so you won't be gaining as much ss you think you will.

For the record I'm not a griefer, I've solo'd all my lich. Thanks for assuming the worst of me though.

Edited November 18, 2019 by -CdG-Zilchy

[DatDarkOne]

37 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

I'm just tired of you and people like you going "ItS alLwaYS fAstER to StAb YoU'Re LiCH! AnD YoU'Re A tRoll/GrEIFer If YoU dOnT!!!"
When its in fact slower if you stab your lich during your first 2 words if you have less than 1/3rd of the murmurs left to grind out due to how long it can take your lich to respawn.  At that point its faster to ignore your lich, finish your word, and then stab the lich as it'll spawn a lot faster at the higher aggression points.

 

9 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

I find the entire system highly unreasonable, and that's on DE, not the players.

Since when is it good game design to require players kill themselves over and over in trial and error? I'm sorry, I won't partake in that. I play video games for fun, not efficient farming, dying isn't fun and should be reserved for when I make a mistake, not because it's considered a requirement for progress, and potentially not even my own progress.

Frankly I think one of the biggest flaws in the system is that there's things to farm from it. There's potential for it being a lot more enjoyable if people weren't so desperate to get everything from it that the only thing that matters is efficiency.

DE -clem-ed up royally.

I agree with both of these.  

13 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Because nobody wants to admit that DE -clem-ed up royal.

Yes, DE -clem-ed up royally.  

[EmberStar]

29 minutes ago, BloodKitten said:

for now, if a lich is on the field, extraction should be disabled, player will either need to stab the lich, or get downed a few times untill it leave if they dont want to level it up.

Do you even think before you type?  Like, at all?  You think non-stabbers are holding you hostage now?  Just wait until NO ONE can finish the mission, because they'd rather just hang out for an hour watching Stranger Things and not dying (just to prove a point.)

"No, I mean only the non-stabber should be prevented from extracting."  Oh, right.  So DE is going to code a totally different extraction trigger just to punish someone for their own misguided and anti-social game design?  A solution that's almost certainly HARDER than simply tagging the liches like other Hunter NPCs like Stalker.  IE, If one spawns in a mission then NO other lich will spawn in that mission, ever.  A solution that would *also* stomp on the "Kill your lich so mine can show up!" nonsense dead in one shot.  (Not in a way that favors selfish people like you, but it *WOULD* put an end to it.)

"No, I mean just in a way that only punishes the person who won't stab it, at no inconvenience to me, because programing is magic and fixing it is easy."  Oh, okay.  Well, enjoy your free Host Migration then whenever someone accidentally hits Alt-F4 because they STILL don't want to level up their lich.  And if they're screwed anyway, the fug with it, time to go do the dishes.  Oops.  "Connection lost."

[Urlan]

Toxic play? I would personally consider any player that requires another player to kill themselves to test something, like say a Lich; and still plays a public match to tell others to kill themselves on the chance of their own lich to come in to be exhibiting "toxic behavior". Its hostile to the community at large and helps fester player versus player sentiments which are the core of toxic behavior. Course, different folk have different definitions of what they consider appropriate or rude behavior.