Defiled Snapdragon feels horrible to use

[BlachWolf]

This Stance has been gutted when it came to its potential. Basically all of the forced slash procs have been removed and the only combo that feel somewhat right to use now is the claws if the drake (standing combo). Soul of the leviathan also doesnt feal that bad (the moving combo), but it doesnt feel great. Finally heart of the naga is just plainly bad, as a gap closer it fails to do its job since its extremely clunk, while also not moving the player enough forward. Finally fangs of the lindwurm is also just bad, it feels extremely awkward and clunky.

In addition to that this stance used to have a 4 innate slash procs based on the combos you could pull off, which helped greatly with my jat kusar, two in the Heart of the Naga, one in the Fangs of the Lindwurm and finally one in the Soul of the Leviathan combo. Right now only one combo has a slash proc, which is at the end of the standing one.

Since whip and blades only have this stance, I'm making this post so DE doesnt forget about this underused weapon class. The most important part in my opinion is that they should fix the actual combos, so they actually feel good. The slash procs can be added in a later date.

Edited November 18, 2019 by BlachWolf
typo

[ShortCat]

Agree.

Blade & Whip melee category is in a bad position right now; not only is the stance clunky, incomprehensible Range adjustments double down on its mediocrity.

[Althaline]

Actually, I only picked up the Blade & Whip after the update, and I've been loving it. Defiled Snapdragon doesn't feel clunky at all, and it's always good fun to watch an enemy get ragdolled towards you and shredded. My only complaint is that the Tactical (R-Click) combos are both very slow to activate.

If I may ask, what feels clunky about the combos?

[BlachWolf]

3 hours ago, Iamabearlulz said:

Actually, I only picked up the Blade & Whip after the update, and I've been loving it. Defiled Snapdragon doesn't feel clunky at all, and it's always good fun to watch an enemy get ragdolled towards you and shredded. My only complaint is that the Tactical (R-Click) combos are both very slow to activate.

If I may ask, what feels clunky about the combos?

The standing and moving kombos are ok, they just lack their forced slash procs, although the moving combo could use with some more mobility. The problem arises with the gap closer, the throws just dont feel good and it doesnt actually close any gabs. The tactical strike is way to clunky and also doesn't feel right, especially after the turn.

[Althaline]

14 minutes ago, BlachWolf said:

The tactical strike is way to clunky and also doesn't feel right, especially after the turn.

This part I can get on board with. There's not much point to a quick strike that takes longer to activate than the Heavy Attack.

[Raikh]

I personally started to like Blade & Whip more again after the Update. Primarily standing and forward combo which are the main ones I use on most stances anyway.

Defiled Snapdragon always had a few pretty impractical and clunky moves and those simply now got stuck on the blocking combos. While pretty unfortunate its not like any stances got new moves the combos were simpy moved around and I rather have a few practical ones rather than have some awkward bad attack mixed into each combo.

I also had no issue with the rnage changes as now there isn't this weird situation where the whip sweeps the room while the blade barely hits anything. I could see some range increases on the whip attacks, although I'm not quite sure that they don't still have longer range than the blade, but voerall it still feels vastly better with decent rnage on the blade.

Remvoing forced procs is meh and they definitely should stay, but its also kinda bad for the weapon if it has to rely on them. Blade & Whip stats are relatively mediocre tbh. Mios lacks crit and base dmg, Lacera got slash with the update but lacks the crit and Jat Kusar has the crit but is awfully slow and didn't get enough slash. Forced procs can make up for the lack of slash but the top candidates of other weapon classes simply feature a higher stat budget. If we got a slash based, high crit, decent status with 1.0+ attack speed Blade & Whip it would be A LOT more competitive.

[BlachWolf]

12 hours ago, Raikh said:

Remvoing forced procs is meh and they definitely should stay, but its also kinda bad for the weapon if it has to rely on them. Blade & Whip stats are relatively mediocre tbh. Mios lacks crit and base dmg, Lacera got slash with the update but lacks the crit and Jat Kusar has the crit but is awfully slow and didn't get enough slash.

When it comes to actual stats, in my opinion aside from the lacera (it should've either have higher base dmg or attack speed) blade and whipes are in a good position right now, like for example dual swords, daggers and sword & shield. The problem unlike those weapon categories, is that they now lack any meaningful innate slash procs in their stance, while having a clunky stance.

[Raikh]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb BlachWolf:

When it comes to actual stats, in my opinion aside from the lacera (it should've either have higher base dmg or attack speed) blade and whipes are in a good position right now, like for example dual swords, daggers and sword & shield. The problem unlike those weapon categories, is that they now lack any meaningful innate slash procs in their stance, while having a clunky stance.

Lacera would be extremely well off if it would just have any venue of going into a hybrid build. It is arguably even the best of the 3 right now. Jat Kusar has the superior stats but lacks slash. It still look great in Simulacrum or against lower level enemies because you either have corrosive against Heavy Gunner Ferrite Armor or the armor is simply not high enough to matter and the raw crit dmg goes through. However without having a fitting element or really high armor Jat Kusar is a bit meh and while Lacera lacks the scalability on the other side it can push through armor better naturally.

Dual Swords have a really wide spectrum of stats. While the better ones probably have a similar budget as the Jat Kusar they also have have high innate slash and the attack speed is incomparable. Swirling Tiger has become so good with the Update and that also runs only one forced slash on the entire stance. It just has an absurd amount of multihits and all the good Dual Swords can easily provide the slash procs themselves while critting away.

Haven't really concerned myself much with the daggers tbh. I haven't seen any really outstanding resuslts with them since the Update and can't really comment on them personally.

SnS is again a case of multihits. Sigma & Octantis are basically all the Jat Kusar should be. While having a bit lower crit stats it has a vastly higher attack speed multiplier which helps immensely and it has the innate Slash to make it all happen. FInal Harbinger didn't have any forced slash procs before the Update and I don't thinkt hey added any, it features again a lot of multihits which create the really high dps here.

Don't get me wrong. I'm always for better stances. If people have suggestions how to improve Defiled Snapdragon in a similar fashion to how Wise Razor for the Tatsu was changed in a recent Hotifx, then I'm all for it. I just don't find Defiled Snapdragon super clunky now or any more clunky than it was before. The loss of slash procs is unfortunate and it would certainly carry Jat Kusar to some glory if it got slash procs all over the stance again and that might be a good reason to return for them for now, I just don't find it a good premise. Because there are a lot of weapons which simply lack slash to be good. It always boils down to that. A good stance can fix a lot but in the end, all the weapons that excel at the moment are hybrid build capable slash monsters with relatively high attack speed and a ton of slash to provide the procs themselves. And we simply don't have a Blade & Whip heavy on slash with decent crit stats, acceptable status and non terrible attack speed. I might've expressed it a bit badly. Its not so much about the stat budget of the Blade & Whips and more about how the stats are distributed that is bothering me a bit, compared to most of the top tier options.

[BlachWolf]

17 hours ago, Raikh said:

Lacera would be extremely well off if it would just have any venue of going into a hybrid build. It is arguably even the best of the 3 right now. Jat Kusar has the superior stats but lacks slash. It still look great in Simulacrum or against lower level enemies because you either have corrosive against Heavy Gunner Ferrite Armor or the armor is simply not high enough to matter and the raw crit dmg goes through. However without having a fitting element or really high armor Jat Kusar is a bit meh and while Lacera lacks the scalability on the other side it can push through armor better naturally.

I disagree in this notion, especially when talking about the jat kusar. Now with its 19% status chance and one of the highest CC chance in the game, it can handle armor. Which is also helped by the buff fire received, which makes corrosive job easier. It has some pretty good hybrid stats. The lacera while being able to deal better with armored enemies, it just lacks the dmg to take advantage of that fact. Either way both weapon suffered from the nerfed received by the stance. I was able to push 7k slash DoTs pretty easily, but now this isnt the case anymore.

18 hours ago, Raikh said:

Dual Swords have a really wide spectrum of stats. While the better ones probably have a similar budget as the Jat Kusar they also have have high innate slash and the attack speed is incomparable. Swirling Tiger has become so good with the Update and that also runs only one forced slash on the entire stance. It just has an absurd amount of multihits and all the good Dual Swords can easily provide the slash procs themselves while critting away.

Which is why I want slash procs to return on the stance and also that the combos become somewhat better.

 

18 hours ago, Raikh said:

Haven't really concerned myself much with the daggers tbh. I haven't seen any really outstanding resuslts with them since the Update and can't really comment on them personally.

They have a lot of forced bleed procs, which makes something like the fang prime incredibly powerful, even when lacking any slash stat. Both on combos and heavy attacks. Those things have received a major buff, same thing with the machetes.

18 hours ago, Raikh said:

SnS is again a case of multihits. Sigma & Octantis are basically all the Jat Kusar should be. While having a bit lower crit stats it has a vastly higher attack speed multiplier which helps immensely and it has the innate Slash to make it all happen. FInal Harbinger didn't have any forced slash procs before the Update and I don't thinkt hey added any, it features again a lot of multihits which create the really high dps here.

I have tested it myself, it now has innate slash procs. Again this is why I want slash procs to be back. The weapon doesnt need any further stat increase, just a good stance. That said I wouldnt say no to a speed increase.

18 hours ago, Raikh said:

Don't get me wrong. I'm always for better stances. If people have suggestions how to improve Defiled Snapdragon in a similar fashion to how Wise Razor for the Tatsu was changed in a recent Hotifx, then I'm all for it. I just don't find Defiled Snapdragon super clunky now or any more clunky than it was before. The loss of slash procs is unfortunate and it would certainly carry Jat Kusar to some glory if it got slash procs all over the stance again and that might be a good reason to return for them for now, I just don't find it a good premise. Because there are a lot of weapons which simply lack slash to be good. It always boils down to that. A good stance can fix a lot but in the end, all the weapons that excel at the moment are hybrid build capable slash monsters with relatively high attack speed and a ton of slash to provide the procs themselves. And we simply don't have a Blade & Whip heavy on slash with decent crit stats, acceptable status and non terrible attack speed. I might've expressed it a bit badly. Its not so much about the stat budget of the Blade & Whips and more about how the stats are distributed that is bothering me a bit, compared to most of the top tier options.

Its either you have insane dmg like the arca titron or fragor prime, can push a lot of status while tanking advantage of crits like the redeemer, or you have a way to reliably proc slash through stances and or the weapon itself while also having high dmg. I just want defiled snapdragon to be a better stance, since I find blade and whips to be a pretty cool weapon time.

[Raikh]

Am 20.11.2019 um 08:51 schrieb BlachWolf:

Which is why I want slash procs to return on the stance and also that the combos become somewhat better.

Seems like atleast the part with the slash procs has been heard with the Rising Tide.. Guess I need to give Jat Kusar another shot now, since regardless of my previous notion about Lacera being possibly better, with enough forced slash procs Jat Kusar can only win that argument.

Am 20.11.2019 um 08:51 schrieb BlachWolf:

I have tested it myself, it now has innate slash procs. Again this is why I want slash procs to be back. The weapon doesnt need any further stat increase, just a good stance. That said I wouldnt say no to a speed increase.

I checked that and you are right. Actually have to thank you for sharing the observation as it vastly improved my view on the Silva & Aegis Prime which had me being a bit disappointed with being a pure elemental still which has some drawbacks right now with the CO changes etc. But with it having access to slash procs now anyway I'm looking forward to playing around with it more.

 

Am 20.11.2019 um 08:51 schrieb BlachWolf:

Its either you have insane dmg like the arca titron or fragor prime, can push a lot of status while tanking advantage of crits like the redeemer, or you have a way to reliably proc slash through stances and or the weapon itself while also having high dmg. I just want defiled snapdragon to be a better stance, since I find blade and whips to be a pretty cool weapon time.

Not sure if I would call any hamemr a good weapon right now. Yeah they can crit very high but raw crit also has a noticable fall-off point. That point is past level 100 but since hammers also have the lowest follow through, generally no slash (except Garas Hammer which lacks crit in return) and are not really that good for status (maybe some gas shenanigans? not sure) I don't have the highest opinion of them.. There are some neat heavy attack build clips of Fragor floating around but the slash proc heavies win that competition long-temr still.

High end boils mostly down to the slash heavy hybrid monsters like NIkanas, Tonfas, Dual Swords and Reapers (and Venka Prime and Fang Prime)

Lets see how Blade & Whips fare with the changes now.