Option for Newton's First Law to apply to Archwing.

[ShyRaven2161]

The main issue I have with Archwing is that the flight mechanics are so unrealistic. When you look around while you are not pressing a, w, s or d, the direction you are flying in shouldn't change. Please add an option for more realistic flight mechanics if it's not too much trouble. It would really redeem Archwing for me and perhaps many others too.

Edited November 18, 2019 by LoveFromSky

[No1NParticular31]

At this point I would be happy if the controls worked the same in space as it did in PoE/OV. Having completely different controls especially when going from one into the other is very jarring.

Edited November 18, 2019 by No1NParticular31

[Teridax68]

I would simply prefer for Archwing to automatically engage retro-boosters and quickly halt us when we're not inputting any sort of movement command. I think it's idiotic that our Archwing keeps going wherever we're facing when we idly turn while not trying to move, and I've found my Archwing doing a 180 and going in the opposite direction when I briefly look at the pause menu. Archwing movement in general needs an overhaul, and I look forward to seeing what will be done for Empyrean.

[Althaline]

11 minutes ago, No1NParticular31 said:

At this point I would be happy if the controls worked the same in space as it did in PoE/OV. Having completely different controls especially when going from one into the other is very jarring.

Please word that the other way around. I would very much appreciate keeping the good movement system and not the horrific, unintuitive, nauseating mess that is Skywing.

[GruntBlender]

I hate the inconsistency in it. Either make the movement Newtonian or emulate ground movement (hold button to go, release to stop). Having the archwing SOMETIMES make sharp turns while I'm looking around is annoying, inconsistent speed and acceleration between forward, sideways, and aim strafing makes combat a slow chore or a lock-on stabbing spree.

Seriously, either system would work as long as it makes the movement consistent.

Then there's landscape archwing movement, where you stay level when using WASD unless you're boosting and then all bets are off. Acceleration and speed are still inconsistent in the horizontal directions, up/down/double-boost doesn't work with gear like the tranq rifle equipped, momentum is still weird and abrupt turns can happen randomly, it takes a year to slow down but we can do a 180 instantly, etc.

[Steel_Rook]

20 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I would simply prefer for Archwing to automatically engage retro-boosters and quickly halt us when we're not inputting any sort of movement command. I think it's idiotic that our Archwing keeps going wherever we're facing when we idly turn while not trying to move, and I've found my Archwing doing a 180 and going in the opposite direction when I briefly look at the pause menu. Archwing movement in general needs an overhaul, and I look forward to seeing what will be done for Empyrean.

The problem with Archwings is that none of their flight model is actually simulated. All of it is loosely emulated via baking acceleration into the movement animations themselves. That's why you'll drift like a hovercraft when trying to stop by holding the Back button but you can pull off ridiculous U-turns by letting go of the controls and looking around. The same is true for ground movement, incidentally, which is why double jumps straight-up HALT your momentum sometimes. However, ground speeds are slow and our movement choppy thanks to the Bullet Jump salmon flopping, so it isn't as apparent. For Archwings, we definitely need a proper simulated flight model. I agree that we need auto retro thrusters which passively halt our momentum and possibly reset our orientation, possibly as a toggled option.

I've been playing a lot of Destiny 2 lately, and it's been something of a culture shock because that game uses a (admittedly rudimentary) physics simulation for all movement. Jetpacks apply a force vector rather than just setting speed, meaning you can hit one after a long jump and STILL smash into the ground hard if you were going too fast for the force to counter. Characters have proper collision capsules, meaning slanted terrain can shoot you off sideways if you impact it at the wrong angle. It's a REALLY difficult system to get used to that still has the tendency to bounce and slide me around where I don't want to go and where jumping over small ledges can be frustrating... But it's a CONSISTENT system due to the abstracted simulation. Running, jumping, hovering and even straight-up flying work the same way regardless of where you're facing or what animation you're doing.

Warframe's Archwings, in comparions, fake all of their "physics" and it's REALLY apparent when that happens. They're supposed to have weight and momentum, but only have that sometimes, when the game is able to interpolate properly. When you animation-cancel, however, no physics is apparent and motion changes direction instantly. THAT right there is what makes the system feel janky, unfinished and clumsy.

[GruntBlender]

3 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

All of it is loosely emulated via baking acceleration into the movement animations themselves.

Oh God, why? There's no way this was easier to do at the time than a rudimentary physics simulation, especially considering there's already a physics simulation in game for ragdoll falling.

[Kefirno]

There's "experimental flight" option in settings. It deals with this pseudo-physics pseudo-momentum trash making you less floaty and allows 6DOF. But only in space missions iirc.

I think that movement from experimental flight should be applied everywhere, both space and freeroam while 6DOF thing should be optional with a dedicated button to realign yourself with minimap.

Edited November 19, 2019 by Kefirno

[GruntBlender]

5 hours ago, Kefirno said:

There's "experimental flight" option in settings. It deals with this pseudo-physics pseudo-momentum trash making you less floaty and allows 6DOF. But only in space missions iirc.

I think that movement from experimental flight should be applied everywhere, both space and freeroam while 6DOF thing should be optional with a dedicated button to realign yourself with minimap.

The one obvious difference I've found with it was that it no longer has a static up direction, making navigation in what is essentially still a 2d map more difficult. I haven't thoroughly tested it, but that one difference makes it even more annoying than the regular mode.

I agree with the second half of your comment. Either way, archwing movement should be fixed/improved.

[Steel_Rook]

20 hours ago, GruntBlender said:

Oh God, why? There's no way this was easier to do at the time than a rudimentary physics simulation, especially considering there's already a physics simulation in game for ragdoll falling.

I genuinely have no idea about exactly how Archwing momentum is implemented or why it was implemented this way. I don't think Warframe HAS an overall physics simulation going on behind the scenes, but rather physics appear to be baked within individual "physics objects" and determined by their state. As such, my impression is that the way Archwings work was a "dirty hack" necessary just to make them functional at the time of implementation, which was then never really updated. There IS an Experimental Flight Model option which as far as I can tell does #*!%-all. Plains/Vallis flight does have a bit more of a physics model to it, in the sense that movement isn't as jerky and janky, but that still seems to be a slightly more seamless implementation of the original Archwing flight model because it still has similar issues of "sometimes you drift, sometimes you 180 on a dime."

Games with a central physics simulation to which all actors conform are definitely harder to control, simply because they generally give you less control during jumps. Destiny 2 is a good example, but hardly the only one. City of Heroes back in the day had something of a general physics simulation and that too made it difficult to land precision jumps unless you had a really good muscle-memory feel of momentum. In practice, a lot of physics-based jumping systems end up feeling a lot like you're playing Jump King, in that you pick your initial trajectory, your initial velocity and then hope the physics engine takes you where you need to go. However, the skills necessary to navigate such games can be learned, and I'd argue that feels quite a bit more satisfying than the spastic hopping and getting caught on terrain of Warframe.

That, and DE seem to have developed an aversion for making any kind of major changes to the game. Every time they try, people complain and they end up reverting the changes. Remember when they tried to standardise Atmospheric and Space flight controls, only for people to complain? What's needed to make Archwings work is a fundamental redesign of their core flight model in a way that's going to be new for everyone and that DE know full well will generate a lot of complaints. So they just don't do it. I don't think they can keep this up if they want Empyrean to be a thing.