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Can Ash's 4 get the Ember's rework 4 treatment?


(PSN)IncessantDevoir
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1 hour ago, Niennah said:

That's basically almost exactly what it was originally. Then it was decided it's "boring" and not "hands-on" enough, so now we have this.

The old BS didn't require LoS, you just selected an enemy and every enemies (even in adjacent rooms) were targeted by the clones. Which meant a whole lot of enemies impossible to attack for allies.

Also the boring part was that you were forced in the multiple finisher animation, which rendered you invincible (and inactive) for a while.

Copying Ember would mean targeting a bunch of enemies at once (but with LoS), pressing 4 and immediately sending the clones for one swift attack. Instead of the multiple clones attacks, enemies would suffer from the DoT of bleeding (Ash's specialty)

It's what DE should have done in the first place, but they gave it to Ember and made fire scalable like bleeding

Like Wisp "stole" Vauban Mote-like ability...

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42 minutes ago, BlachWolf said:

Embers current 4 is annoying to play with thanks to how much people spam it and I dont want old brain dead ash back, so how about no.

People spam it because it doesn't feel like an ulti. Since it doesn't cost the generic 100 energy and people build for high efficiency anyway to be able to spam her 3 (and also cause duration doesn't really matter on her), people use it whenever they come across a "group" of 2 or 3 enemies for maybe 10 energy cost (which they can recover almost instantly).

An ulti should feel situational, wether it's against a boss type enemy or a real crowd of enemies. Some people don't like Volt's 4 cause it's a nuke, but at least you need a crowd of enemies to make it work, against 2 or 3 enemies it's just CC

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47 minutes ago, Tatann said:

People spam it because it doesn't feel like an ulti.

Yet you advocate for giving it to Ash...His abillity isn't 100 energy either, and people will build for efficiency to spam it. 

I'm confused how you feel this would be any different with Ash using it.

 

 

Edited by (PS4)Ozymandias-13-
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Just now, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

Clearly you're not using him in high level content then, as he's designed to be used. Lol

If he doesn't work well in low-level content, there's no reason for me to expect him to work well in high-level content. I used to love the old Bladestorm, these days it just feels useless and unsatisfying.

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I do agree that Ash`s be need to be improved, if I were to improve it here is what I would do;

Bladestorm

·       When activating the ability, it will start instantly.

·       Pressing the ability will bring you into the animation while holding the ability will send clones out to kill instead of you.

·       If you want to jump out of bs, press the ability again and the clones will continue to kill enemies.

·       Enemies that are red can be killed by players.

·       There is no limit to how many enemies he can kill within the radius of the enemy he`s aiming at.

·       An indicator is shown of the number of enemies that are going to be killed by bs.

 

Simple solution no pointless marking, no invulnerable enemies, quick activation and a better choice of sending clones or having fun jumping into the animation. 

@IamabearlulzWould this make you use bs again?

Edited by (PS4)Vexx757
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49 minutes ago, Iamabearlulz said:

If he doesn't work well in low-level content, there's no reason for me to expect him to work well in high-level content. I used to love the old Bladestorm, these days it just feels useless and unsatisfying.

Then that's because you don't understand how his ability works lol.

Bladestorm deals True damage and bleed procs (also true damage). It bypasses enemy defenses entirely allowing it to be effective against all enemy factions, regardless of level. The higher the enemy level, the better it is compared to other frames and weapons. He's not meant to take out a room full of trash. He's meant to be able take out the toughest enemies regardless of level.

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18 minutes ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

Bladestorm

·       When activating the ability, it will start instantly.

·       Pressing the ability will bring you into the animation while holding the ability will send clones out to kill instead of you.

These 2 alone would make me appreciate Bladestorm again. It's just such a hassle currently.

 

12 minutes ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

Then that's because you don't understand how his ability works lol.

Bladestorm deals True damage and bleed procs (also true damage). It bypasses enemy defenses entirely allowing it to be effective against all enemy factions, regardless of level. The higher the enemy level, the better it is compared to other frames and weapons. He's not meant to take out a room full of trash. He's meant to be able take out the toughest enemies regardless of level.

So, I could Bladestorm and spend 10 seconds marking the high priority targets... or I could just equip the Shuriken augment, strip all their armour and RubiPrime them in the face. Bladestorm is just too clunky. I'm also not convinced that True Damage always bypasses all enemy defences. Take the Nox, for example. Should get shredded by finishers if that were the case, but it doesn't.

In any case, there's not much point in saying something gets good at high levels if by "High Levels" you mean anything past 130. At that point you're just flexing Epeen.

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The old Ash's problem was that he was part of BS which made it a cutscene. Embers targetting would alos bring a component of positioning while being practical.

BS right now is just bad. Yeah its true damage. But a good melee kills a pack of level 200 heavies still faster than it even takes to apply 3 marks to each of them. You also have his 1 and 3 augments for singular targets. Blade Storm is an AoE ability and if it can't AoE properly its pretty worthless. It deals enough damage but it simply is too slow you can target a room and realize it would've been faster to melee all of them dead than stand there and use BS to do the job.

 

 

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2 hours ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

Yet you advocate for giving it to Ash...His abillity isn't 100 energy either, and people will build for efficiency to spam it. 

I'm confused how you feel this would be any different with Ash using it.

 

 

I didn't say his 4 shouldn't be 100, or limited to a number of enemies (like it used to be).

But currently Ember's 4 feel cheap (as a cost). You can cast it "by mistake" whenever you see an enemy, cause it will only cost a few energy points.

I'm not saying Ash doesn't need another proper rework for his 4, but his current 4 is worse that what they could have done by applying the same rework Ember got (but replacing scaling fire proc with bleeding) but keeping it with a fixed energy cost.

Also remember Ash has a lower energy pool than Ember, and putting Fleeting Expertise on him hurts his 2 (while on Ember...). So spamming a "generic 100 energy" ability on Ash whenever you see an enemy and hoping other hidden enemies get caught with it (like old BS) is less an option (without ruining his 2)

 

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vor einer Stunde schrieb Raikh:

Blade Storm is an AoE ability

Wt... did you ever played Ash? None if his abilities are aoe. His abilities are focused single target dps but not aoe. (Or do you count three hits on different enemies in warframe as aoe?)  But nobody needs focused dps. And that's his problem. If the enemies would be a lot tuffer and we won't have to kill 30 enemies at once, but only three or five ash would easily be in the meta again.

And changing Ash Bladestorm like embers wouldn't work. Ash is an assassin/ ninja. So he needs a high dps, or else it doesn't fit to his concept. So attacking 20 enemies at once with a weak attack doesn't fit. And high damage like it's typical for assassin would be to strong. If he could attack many enemies at once but only for a limited time, that would be something which could work.

With other words. Ash Bladestorm doesn't need a rework. He needs a complete rework. His problem starts by his stats (Ash prime who can turn invisible and normally didn't get any damage has bigger EHP than Oberon Prime and Excalibur Prime/ Umbra...) and ends by the fact that his skill are to focused for Warframe. (Shuriken hits only 2 enemies; Smoke screens stun radius and duration is to low to be used as CC; Teleport is bugged like hell and allow only teleportation if you have a target, so it's limited to use as an mobility ability; BS is just Bs.)

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vor 16 Minuten schrieb ES-Flinter:

Wt... did you ever played Ash? None if his abilities are aoe.

Originally BS was an AoE ability. Only the rework to make you target every single enemy at a time made it as mediocre and unwieldy as it is now. Sure its not press a button and the whole room disappears in a giant explosion since BS always had a notable anitmation time but it nevertheless acted as an AoE or multitarget ability. Thats the point of it, otherwise you could literally just imitate BS by spamming fatal telport finishers and do more damage.

The rest of his kit is ST oriented, yes, but thats fine as long as BS fulfills the multitarget component, which it currently doesn't because of the targetting mechanism.

Ash Prime also doesn't have more eHP than Oberon or Excal Umbra, he has more HP but not more eHP, important distinction. He is also still very reliant on his stealth, which probably has a bit too short of a base duration tbh, to survive, because he is inf act not particularly tanky. Base hp is not everything unless you are Inaros and his armor is rather low, he has no dmg reductions and also no high energy pool for QT if you really just wanted to push his eHP.

Edited by Raikh
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vor 2 Stunden schrieb Raikh:

Ash Prime also doesn't have more eHP than Oberon or Excal Umbra,

Forgive me, I somehow did give Ash Prime 150 armor instead of 125. But he has still a higher EHP than Excal Umbra. (And if you count the shields he beat them both.)^^ But that with the EHP was just a comparison to show, that there is something wrong with his stats. Wouldn't it be more fitting to give him only 100 healthpoints and for that 100 base energy? It's not like, that you get hitted, when you are invisble.  (Except, you do a stupid mistake, like running before an Ironskin-Rhino.)

Spoiler

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To give Hildryn a little Chance

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vor 2 Stunden schrieb Raikh:

Originally BS was an AoE ability.

I started Warframe in U.9 and I can't remeber myself, that he ever had an AOE abilty. But before I explain, which abilties he ever had since this time...

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Raikh:

but it nevertheless acted as an AoE or multitarget ability

Where is for you the differnce between AOE and Multitarget abilty?^^

In my eyes is AOE something like:" one attack= many hits" (like Sayns Miasma) and multitarget:" amount of attacks= amount of hits" (like Ash Bladestorm).

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vor 27 Minuten schrieb ES-Flinter:

Forgive me, I somehow did give Ash Prime 150 armor instead of 125. But he has still a higher EHP than Excal Umbra. (And if you count the shields he beat them both.)^^ But that with the EHP was just a comparison to show, that there is something wrong with his stats. Wouldn't it be more fitting to give him only 100 healthpoints and for that 100 base energy? It's not like, that you get hitted, when you are invisble.  (Except, you do a stupid mistake, like running before an Ironskin-Rhino.)

I wasn't really talking about base eHP. I would consider it faulty to take eHP based on base stats while not considering the kit or certain mod synergies. Like Oberon getting extra armor from Consecrated Ground + Renewal or Excals Exalted Blade having 60% frontal dmg auto-block. (although they broke that with U26 but thats a different issue)

Altohugh I agree that its strange that Ash Prime got so high base HP and Shield without being able to do much with it, while other frames sit on mediocre base stats while being supposed to tank damage with them.

vor 36 Minuten schrieb ES-Flinter:

I started Warframe in U.9 and I can't remeber myself, that he ever had an AOE abilty. But before I explain, which abilties he ever had since this time...

Old Bladestorm had you targetting one mob and then you and your shadow clones went through up to 18 targets around the initial target within the ability's range. Thats AoE/multitarget in my book. Atleast as much as Mesa's Peacemaker is considered AoE.

 

vor 40 Minuten schrieb ES-Flinter:

Where is for you the differnce between AOE and Multitarget abilty?^^

In my eyes is AOE something like:" one attack= many hits" (like Sayns Miasma) and multitarget:" amount of attacks= amount of hits" (like Ash Bladestorm).

Its mostly jsut being nitpicky. AoE just like the name Area of Effect refers to an ability of effect that covers an area and affects all units within the area. A multitarget ability or effect is an ability that hits multiple targets per use. They aren't really exlcusive to each other. Ash's current BS is more of a multitarget ability as one cast can hit multiple targets, while previously it was basically both as everything within an area was targeted.

Examples would be Ash's Shuriken for multi target as you can hit two targets with one cast that are, well targeted. Emebers new Inferno would be both as it hits targeted enemies in an area. FInally Saryns Miasma is simply an AoE as it simply affects all tragets within an area but there are no specific targetting mechanisms involved.

It usually boils down to similar results.

 

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vor 6 Stunden schrieb Raikh:

Old Bladestorm had you targetting one mob and then you and your shadow clones went through up to 18 targets around the initial target within the ability's range.

And the even older bladestorm didn't have any clones. Always "funny", when you have to wait a yeah until Ash was done with the stabbing.

vor 6 Stunden schrieb Raikh:

Atleast as much as Mesa's Peacemaker is considered AoE.

And for me her peacemaker is "just" a multi target ability. 

vor 6 Stunden schrieb Raikh:

It usually boils down to similar results.

On that I agree with you. 😃

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On 2019-11-19 at 9:00 AM, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

So basically old ash. Nah.

That's why the current Bladestorm must be changed. It is like as using sniper rifles on Warframe - boresome, inconvenient, and cumbersome. Well, sniper rifle is actually better, for it fires the round as soon as you click. Not like such a slowcoach Bladestorm.

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27 minutes ago, DroopingPuppy said:

That's why the current Bladestorm must be changed. It is like as using sniper rifles on Warframe - boresome, inconvenient, and cumbersome. Well, sniper rifle is actually better, for it fires the round as soon as you click. Not like such a slowcoach Bladestorm.

And old bladestorm was press 4 to win to the max.

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2 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

And old bladestorm was press 4 to win to the max.

That's at least better, for at least it does not requires point to point marking in order to do anything. And it is not the only 'press 4 to win' kind of ability - in the meta that Saryn is lives, bring back old Blade Storm changes nothing on the impact of the balance actually. If someone just need this, then they just need to abandon Ash, but it doesn't just lose that and Ash can only use three abilities to survive now.

I have no needs for defending area DD - so called press 4 to win for obvious reason - but why we can't request for something usable in the real games? It is even worse than using sniper rifles against enemies.

Also it doesn't need to press 4 and obiliterate every enemy within around 20m of Ash, but why it is on Ash, who needs to rush through the enemy and kill what he wants and retreat to the shadow? If it was on Loki, then it may meet his style for he is renown for hide for a while. But no, Ash is not expected to hide and seek the enemy as do needleworks in order to terminate the enemy.

 

Honestly, even if Bladestorm is changed to empowered Slash Dash(on Excalibur) I do say it is an improvement, for it will allows Ash to have four abilities and it would be not against his expected combat style. But no, not the current Bladestorm that requires us to carefully pick the enemy just like as making each stitch in the needlework.

In short, current Bladestorm is just unacceptable on real-time FPS/TPS games at all, not just Warframe. It is simply a design fault.

Edited by DroopingPuppy
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Problems with bladestorm

·       The two stages of the killing process make bs slow, because of this, other players can take his kills before you get a chance to kill them which makes him not helpful in the team, not fun to play and in a fast-pasted game this is bad.

 

·       Marking enemies for some players is sickening because of the motion of moving the cursor onto enemies, even though it`s easier (but still a problem) to do this using a mouse, doing this on a controller is not as easy, an ability should be able to be easy to use no matter what you use.

 

·       Because enemies are highlighted by your chosen energy colour, it will make enemies more visible to other players to go and kill them which in their minds is a top priority.

 

·       If you want the full damage of bs, you have to mark the enemies three times which slows you down or make you stationary (if you want to do it quickly) to mark enemies with three marks. In low-level missions, your energy will be refunded back to you if you over mark and in high levels you obviously going to want the full damage of it so there is absolutely no point in having to choose the amount of damage you want to dish out. With the old bs, you had the full damage regardless.

 

·       Bodies disappearing makes it to where you can`t bring him in a desecrating team with a nekros. While bodies disappearing makes sense on paper for him being a ninja and I like the idea, unfortunately, this just makes him a problem in that team.

 

·       The indicator shows how many marks instead of how many enemies affected by bs. Because of this, you have no idea how many enemies are going to be killed. If it showed how many enemies affected by bs, it will let the play know when to use bs again.

 

·       Using your 2nd ability to use less energy is not synergy. Synergy is meant to be a choice that makes a difference in missions however, this so-called synergy is a must to use it consistently which makes it a bad gimmick.

 

·       Using the 3rd ability to join the animation costs no energy but you need energy to be able to use it which makes no sense plus, in low-level missions, sometimes you`re not even going to get a chance use your 3rd ability because the apparitions have killed the enemies already. (depending on how many enemies you mark)

 

·       Apparitions (clones) appearance is not consistent. The visuals go from looking like you custom coloured Ash to a hologram version, to the original ash look with default colours. Also, this is a bug that the old bs had which means it has not been fixed.

 

·       When marking, you can`t mark enemies that are behind walls or objects which make you have to run around searching for enemies to kill and if you in a team, your marked enemies will be killed off by your teammates.

 

·       Even if Ash`s damage has increased to 2,000, (his damage now is still great) the damage is not as good compared to the old bs. The apparitions of the old bs was like Saryn`s 1st ability damage but slightly better, (and the terminator) the apparitions would not stop killing until the enemies were dead and even though attack speed mods can increase their killing speed, with the current bs, the apparitions only attack three times however the bleeding damage speed cannot.

 

·       You can`t pick an choose what enemies you want to kill; (which people claim you can do) on paper it makes sense however in practise the idea is not useful. For example, if you wanted to mark an energy eximus in-between two other enemies and you only have enough energy to mark one enemy, you are not able to.

 

Reasons;

· Enemies are running around to where you will either run out of energy or you simply can`t mark the eximus.

· You will have to stand there trying to mark that one enemy.

· You have a chance to get hit by a stray bullet or by an explosion whether you use your 2nd ability or not.

· If you’re playing in a team, someone WILL take the kill from you.

· Teleport can do it better and is faster at it. (this alone destroys the purpose of using it that way)

 

And as for his other abilities, the 1st ability is only good with its augment. Augments should be used as an option and not coz the ability on its own is bad, the 2nd ability could benefit by having better cc and even through ppl say that his invisible is too short I have no issue with it, the 3rd ability has potential to be so much better just of the concept of teleportation alone. The revisit he received, it`s crap compared to what oberon and nejha got, overall Ash is a contradiction to what DE wants ppl to do in this game.... PLAY AS A TEAM, that's why his whole kit needs to be looked at again. 

@DroopingPuppy

Spoiler

There is no point talking to GearsMatrix301 this person always complains so don`t waste you time with it. We are in agreement about Ash`s bs, what do you think of my bs idea? (read my previous post)

 

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