Repeating and repeating Kuva weapons & it's Very tiring.

[LazyRogue]

When Old blood was released I was happy for a wave of new content, mostly I was excited to be able to reach MR28 with the spectrum of new weapons.
The Lich system is cool and unique but I am on my 12th Lich and I have only gotten 5 Different weapons, it is really getting very annoying going through the entire process of getting the murmurs, making sure you have the right requiem mods, and then getting the right order, all for a weapon that you are not even going use, not ever for a Valence transfer for stats or type because it's not what you would like to have.
2 Ayangas, 2 Tonkors, 1 Dubba Stubba, 3, Drakgoons, 2 kohms and 2 krakens.
for a total of 48,000 affinity (4,000 per weapon) that's enough to level me well into the beginning of MR28, but obviously I didn't level the duplicates nor would I get the affinity anyway. 

I understand not having the ability to just straight up remove or skip a lich but there needs to be something in place to allow people in my situation to move on from a Lich or something so that they are not stuck going through the monotony of the grind that is A Kuva Lich.

A system or something that can allow you to mark a weapon that you don't want that will decrease the chance of getting it again, and/or a system that can be toggled to increase the chance of getting a new weapon.

I don't want to just sound like I'm complaining or whining over this, almost everyone knows what it's like to go through the process, so imagine having to go over it again and again for something you don't want or need just to do it again and again. It's frustrating to say the least.

But please, I cannot stand to get all these duplicates.

[kyori]

The problem is the length of time we need in order to 'try again'. Unlike the usual stuffs in the game, we can try again in mere minutes but this Lich thing we need at least a few hours to be able to try again, and that is why we are tired of it.

DE knew about this but they ain't gonna change it.

[AEP8FlyBoy]

Even after implementing the "no immediate duplicate weapon" function for Liches, I've still gotten an extra Seer and Kraken since then.

The grind is starting to get annoying. And with the way the system is right now, there's no telling how long it will take for me to get at least 1 of each weapon, considering I'm also one of the only active members in my self-made clan.

Liches aren't anywhere near as annoying to farm as they used to be, and I still hope they improve on this. Especially after seeing a weapon you have already attained 3 or more times after you've finished slappin' 5 Forma in it.

May just end up taking a break from them in general for a few weeks after I earn a few new weapons. I wasn't feeling it in the first week and a half of Liches, but I'm starting to feel it now.

Edited November 19, 2019 by AEP8FlyBoy

[LazyRogue]

15 minutes ago, kyori said:

The problem is the length of time we need in order to 'try again'. Unlike the usual stuffs in the game, we can try again in mere minutes but this Lich thing we need at least a few hours to be able to try again, and that is why we are tired of it.

DE knew about this but they ain't gonna change it.

You said it well, it is the time it takes to attempt to start it again, which is made worse when you receive duplications.
They know about it, yes. And there is definitely a big enough uproar about it that they need to.

[Tsukinoki]

12 minutes ago, AEP8FlyBoy said:

Even after implementing the "no immediate duplicate weapon" function for Liches, I've still gotten an extra Seer and Kraken since then.

At best the "no immediate duplicate weapons" fix doesn't do anything, as it doesn't stop you going "Twin Stubba -> seer -> Kraken -> seer -> Kraken -> ayanga -> seer -> etc..."
At worst its a nerf.  Think about what happens if you are trying to get a higher damage bonus Seer.  You have an 8.3% chance of getting the weapon in the first place.  Say you get the weapon but its the same/lower damage bonus: You now have a zero% chance of getting the seer....until you go through another 2-4 hour grind and then you'll be graced with another 8.3% chance of getting the weapon you want.

Their fix fixed nothing, and actually made the system demonstrably worse.

19 minutes ago, kyori said:

The problem is the length of time we need in order to 'try again'. Unlike the usual stuffs in the game, we can try again in mere minutes but this Lich thing we need at least a few hours to be able to try again, and that is why we are tired of it.

DE knew about this but they ain't gonna change it.

Exactly this.
I mean compare it to grinding out a perfect roll in other games, such as BL2.  It takes minutes to have another try in that game against a boss, not 2-4 hours where you know right from the start "You get nothing from this run, but you have to do it anyways just for another chance!"

Its harder to imagine a more demoralizing system then one that tells you "The next 2-4 hours of grind will be useless because you rolled yet another 20% ayanga!  And you have no way to change it!  Better start grinding....."

[ciTiger]

It was said and proved with Math that preventing the next weapon to be a duplicate weapon was a band aid to hide the problem and never a solution.

(This would greatly escalate if they ever added more weapons.)

DE decided to ignore feedback and continue with it.

[DesertEagle1280]

I agree - or make the duplicates worth something without relying on trading.  I suggested allowing us to merge a bad dupe weapon into a better one to up the % on the combined result.  Getting net-loss in time/resource (ie parazon mods charges) "rewards" is DEmotivating.

See my post here about player-positive systems, where everything feels like progress in some way, vs player-negative systems.

 

[(PSN)Spider_Enigma]

I'm on PS4 and we don't have 26.0.7 so we have more bs to deal with then u, and we have to go 2 months between updates

[LazyRogue]

9 hours ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

I'm on PS4 and we don't have 26.0.7 so we have more bs to deal with then u, and we have to go 2 months between updates

The benefit for you is you don't get these large bugs and player problems, because by the time it comes to you it's already been tested on PC players.

[(PSN)Spider_Enigma]

2 hours ago, LazyRogue said:

The benefit for you is you don't get these large bugs and player problems, because by the time it comes to you it's already been tested on PC players.

yes we do lol we went 3 months with with endless missions not giving rewards unless u were host

[Kriegerurteil]

They just need to add some additional rewards to Kuva Liches, sure when a Lich doesn't have the weapon or ephemera you want you have to reluctantly finish him again to get to the next Lich, but this is endgame content and shouldn't be served on the silver platter.

Another option would be to be able to fuse duplicate weapons into an existing weapon, maybe upping the % elemental damage by 2% or something, with a limit of course. In general what this game is missing is some way to keep improving your gear once you hit endgame. Maybe have the Liches drop a certain kind of Kuva that you can use to infuse weapons and frames with to slightly improve their stats every time up to a certain limit.

[Tsukinoki]

2 minutes ago, Kriegerurteil said:

, but this is endgame content and shouldn't be served on the silver platter.

Except that even level 5 liches aren't really "endgame".
A level 5 lich is in missions that are still easily in one-shot territory without much difficulty for an actual vet.  Meanwhile the system is available incredibly early on (as early as MR5).

It doesn't really fit the definition of "endgame" unless your definition of "endgame" is: "Massive grind with massive time requires for one reward that isn't anything special or extra strong and acts purely as a resource sink with zero benefits to it!  And all on not very hard content either!"

With the levels maxing out at 110 its just not "endgame".  It doesn't test our builds.  It doesn't test our knowledge or skills.  It just asks us to play a guessing game for a few hours.

The weapons are overall lackluster and just reskins of other weapons with have with slight stat differences.
The ephemeras are largely impossible to notice due to how faint they are on your frame compared to how they look on the lich.  For example vengeful flame actually had the lich on fire...on a tenno though its just a few sparks.

I'd argue that the grendel missions are much more "endgame" than any of the kuva lich system as that actually requires knowledge of your frame and weapons and enemies, a decent frame setup, and some actual skill.

[Toran]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Tsukinoki:

Except that even level 5 liches aren't really "endgame".
A level 5 lich is in missions that are still easily in one-shot territory without much difficulty for an actual vet.  Meanwhile the system is available incredibly early on (as early as MR5).

It doesn't really fit the definition of "endgame" unless your definition of "endgame" is: "Massive grind with massive time requires for one reward that isn't anything special or extra strong and acts purely as a resource sink with zero benefits to it!  And all on not very hard content either!"

With the levels maxing out at 110 its just not "endgame".  It doesn't test our builds.  It doesn't test our knowledge or skills.  It just asks us to play a guessing game for a few hours.

The weapons are overall lackluster and just reskins of other weapons with have with slight stat differences.
The ephemeras are largely impossible to notice due to how faint they are on your frame compared to how they look on the lich.  For example vengeful flame actually had the lich on fire...on a tenno though its just a few sparks.

I'd argue that the grendel missions are much more "endgame" than any of the kuva lich system as that actually requires knowledge of your frame and weapons and enemies, a decent frame setup, and some actual skill.

That's a very fitting description of the Kuva Lich game. I'm actually at the end of it. The chance to get the weapon I'm interested in is 7.69% now, with decent bonus damage it's even far less. If I fail, I'm bound to spend hours of boring-as-hell grind just to clear the lich for the next lousy attempt on a very questionable reward.

Why exactly should I proceed? You can feel the reduced interest in Kuva Lichs already, every 2nd game doesn't fill up, further increasing the grind. And once most vets are fed up with it for good, things will get really messy.

I hope DE isn't planning to use this busiwork crap as template for future updates (although the description of the Crimson Branch room hints in that direction). 

P.S. Sneaky Bastard Award 2019 goes to the guy who gave Kuva Kohm 94% damage reduction at 26m falloff... I'm glad I didn't waste time and plat on that BS gun.

[Tsukinoki]

Just now, Toran said:

That's a very fitting description of the Kuva Lich game. I'm actually at the end of it. The chance to get the weapon I'm interested in is 7.69% now, with decent bonus damage it's even far less. If I fail, I'm bound to spend hours of boring-as-hell grind just to clear the lich for the next lousy attempt on a very questionable reward.

With DE's "duplicate prevention" bandaid that they put into the game its actually a bit better....and a bit worse.
Since you can no longer roll 2 of the same weapon in a row you have an 8.333% chance of getting the weapon you want....and then promptly a zero percent chance to roll it until you grind out a different weapon for absolutely no reason.

The "fix" they put in place doesn't help prevent duplicates in any meaningful way and makes it much more annoying if you actually want a decent damage bonus.

Further people have crunched some numbers and found out the rough guidelines for damage bonuses.  They aren't equal, so its not like you have a 1/40 chance of rolling any particular number, but instead tiered with only a 1% or so chance of getting 60%.
So you have an 8.3% chance to roll the wepaon you want...and then since anything 50 and up is good, only a 15% chance to get a decent weapon bonus...

You can see the graph people put together here: https://i.redd.it/bia0kewsttz31.png

As it is I need two more weapons to finish getting them all...and for one of them I just need to kill my lich later today and then hope I get lucky.

3 minutes ago, Toran said:

I hope DE isn't planning to use this busiwork crap as template for future updates (although the description of the Crimson Branch room hints in that direction). 

Its quite obvious that the lich system was put in place to do only two things:

First is to waste our time so we're busy doing something until empyrean hits....sadly its the most boring grind yet with little difficulty and the game telling you right out the gate "Grind 2-4 hours for literally zero progress or reward so you can have the privilege of doing it again!"

Second is that its to burn through forma stockpiles.  There isn't any reason for the weapons to go to 40.  There isn't any bonus they get.  There just isn't anything.  All it does is waste our forma, and most weapons only need 3 or so to be "done" with their build leaving you with around 20 extra points and absolutely nothing to use them on.
I mean compare the kuva weapons to the paracesis: the paracesis had a story, and it had a mechanical bonus to leveling up to 40 (+60% damage to sentients, and at level 40 it resets sentient resistances).
Meanwhile what do the kuva weapons have? Absolutely nothing.  Just a reskin.

I mean IMHO the only decent weapon out of the lot was the Chakkhurr, and that's because its a new weapon that is actually pretty good.
So 1 good weapon, 12 reskins that don't do much...

The obviousness of the time-wasting purpose and forma-burning purpose can really be seen with the Ayanga though.  None of the mods for archguns require many points, they don't have the new exilus slot to burn extra points, and they are a absolute slog to level up, even if you do archwing missions.
Its half-way decentish in ground missions...but only just barely and still outdone by a number of normal guns that don't have the archgun drawbacks.

[Toran]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb Tsukinoki:

With DE's "duplicate prevention" bandaid that they put into the game its actually a bit better....and a bit worse.
Since you can no longer roll 2 of the same weapon in a row you have an 8.333% chance of getting the weapon you want....and then promptly a zero percent chance to roll it until you grind out a different weapon for absolutely no reason.

The "fix" they put in place doesn't help prevent duplicates in any meaningful way and makes it much more annoying if you actually want a decent damage bonus.

Further people have crunched some numbers and found out the rough guidelines for damage bonuses.  They aren't equal, so its not like you have a 1/40 chance of rolling any particular number, but instead tiered with only a 1% or so chance of getting 60%.
So you have an 8.3% chance to roll the wepaon you want...and then since anything 50 and up is good, only a 15% chance to get a decent weapon bonus...

You can see the graph people put together here: https://i.redd.it/bia0kewsttz31.png

As it is I need two more weapons to finish getting them all...and for one of them I just need to kill my lich later today and then hope I get lucky.

Its quite obvious that the lich system was put in place to do only two things:

First is to waste our time so we're busy doing something until empyrean hits....sadly its the most boring grind yet with little difficulty and the game telling you right out the gate "Grind 2-4 hours for literally zero progress or reward so you can have the privilege of doing it again!"

Second is that its to burn through forma stockpiles.  There isn't any reason for the weapons to go to 40.  There isn't any bonus they get.  There just isn't anything.  All it does is waste our forma, and most weapons only need 3 or so to be "done" with their build leaving you with around 20 extra points and absolutely nothing to use them on.
I mean compare the kuva weapons to the paracesis: the paracesis had a story, and it had a mechanical bonus to leveling up to 40 (+60% damage to sentients, and at level 40 it resets sentient resistances).
Meanwhile what do the kuva weapons have? Absolutely nothing.  Just a reskin.

I mean IMHO the only decent weapon out of the lot was the Chakkhurr, and that's because its a new weapon that is actually pretty good.
So 1 good weapon, 12 reskins that don't do much...

The obviousness of the time-wasting purpose and forma-burning purpose can really be seen with the Ayanga though.  None of the mods for archguns require many points, they don't have the new exilus slot to burn extra points, and they are a absolute slog to level up, even if you do archwing missions.
Its half-way decentish in ground missions...but only just barely and still outdone by a number of normal guns that don't have the archgun drawbacks.

The forma burn is a bit short sighted (unless this becomes a new release routine). Sure, I burned my stack but with 120k or so left to MR 29, I don't feel any haste to push the remaining 3 weapons to 40.

If you just lack two more weapons, why not get them from trade channel? Saves you even sorer eyes.😑

[Nichivo]

22 hours ago, LazyRogue said:

When Old blood was released I was happy for a wave of new content, mostly I was excited to be able to reach MR28 with the spectrum of new weapons.
The Lich system is cool and unique but I am on my 12th Lich and I have only gotten 5 Different weapons, it is really getting very annoying going through the entire process of getting the murmurs, making sure you have the right requiem mods, and then getting the right order, all for a weapon that you are not even going use, not ever for a Valence transfer for stats or type because it's not what you would like to have.
2 Ayangas, 2 Tonkors, 1 Dubba Stubba, 3, Drakgoons, 2 kohms and 2 krakens.
for a total of 48,000 affinity (4,000 per weapon) that's enough to level me well into the beginning of MR28, but obviously I didn't level the duplicates nor would I get the affinity anyway. 

I understand not having the ability to just straight up remove or skip a lich but there needs to be something in place to allow people in my situation to move on from a Lich or something so that they are not stuck going through the monotony of the grind that is A Kuva Lich.

A system or something that can allow you to mark a weapon that you don't want that will decrease the chance of getting it again, and/or a system that can be toggled to increase the chance of getting a new weapon.

I don't want to just sound like I'm complaining or whining over this, almost everyone knows what it's like to go through the process, so imagine having to go over it again and again for something you don't want or need just to do it again and again. It's frustrating to say the least.

But please, I cannot stand to get all these duplicates.

Did you convert all the duplicates? You can easily trade duplicates straight up, with others that have duplicates, to get one of each weapon. Better bonuses can be sold for plat if you desire, as can ephemera. A little time into trading, and you could easily have one of each weapon with no plat investment.

[Steel_Rook]

22 hours ago, kyori said:

The problem is the length of time we need in order to 'try again'. Unlike the usual stuffs in the game, we can try again in mere minutes but this Lich thing we need at least a few hours to be able to try again, and that is why we are tired of it. DE knew about this but they ain't gonna change it.

This really is the source of the issue. I'm convinced that DE are no longer in the business of creating video games, but have moved entirely into the business of simulated online gambling masquerading as a video game. Sure, we're not gambling with actual real money so there's that... But we're still sitting here, hitting that lever over and over again and paying for it with our time, effort and mental health. DE knew this would happen. Anyone with a few hours' worth of experience in this game could have told you this would be a massive, depressing, unrewarding grind. They pushed it anyway, because they're doubling down on the Skinner box design. Make less content, offer less in the way of reward, but package it all into psychological conditioning so that your players will keep ringing that bell over and over again, even long after the rewards have stopped, because that's what a Skinner box is designed to do.

The longer DE go without addressing the fundamental issue with Liches, the more respect I lose for them. I mean, clearly they don't respect my time or my effort, so why should I respect theirs? And again - we should have seen this coming. They've been talking about "sustainable rewards" for a while, and that's all that is - a Skinner box masquerading as a video game which is going to keep you playing without actually rewarding you, as long as it can trick you into thinking you're being rewarded. If ever I gave DE the benefit of a doubt that terrible designs and awful grinds are just accidents borne out of a genuine desire to nail the perfect experience, I no longer feel inclined to do so. It's pretty clear that the Kuva Lich system is exactly as grindy, slow and punishing as they wanted it to be. Only reason they ended up recoiling and rolling back the grind as quick as they did is the realisation they'd done a Battlefront 2 by pushing players too far too quickly.

[LepraSK]

Thank god atleast i traded my two duplicates for other weapons. Now i only need Shildeg, and i don't even care what bonus it will have. Kingpin sounded intriguing, but we got another flavor of grind. I know it's Farmframe, but still dissapointing.

[Educated_Beast]

We need a system like this.

 

Not only would this give actual purpose to duplicates you recieve, it would give value to low level duplicates and be beneficial to trading long term.  

Even if you maxed everything, this would allow you to farm and trade.

[Xzorn]

Spam 5min missions over and over, get time gated, spam missions again... Mmmm.. Bite Size Warframe.

Warframe's content closely resembles mobile games these days. How I miss the days before Rivens, PoE and Relics.

[kyori]

Also, if you notice something shady, every time a wrong guess of requiem mods will resulted in us defeated by the Lich, and they won't spawn for the next 2-4 missions, thus wasting more time not allowing us to try different mod combination every mission.

[(PSN)JustitiaCaelum]

Many of you have touched on this already, but the length of the grind really is the problem.

My 1st lich has 29% heat seer. I don't give a damn about the seer.  So I am stuck. 1st, no one will trade for this garbage. and 2nd, even if I could trade it for something I am interested in, I still need to go through the whole process of wasting a charge on my requiem mods to convert it in the first place. 

I can only imagine the amount of dread when I get another one right after this (26.0.7 not on consoles yet fml), because I will have to go through the whole thing again just to get a weapon that I know for hours is going to be a dupe. And only after that can I get another shot at hopefully not 3 in a row.