Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

lukinu_u

Zaw damage and attack speed are broken

Recommended Posts

Before starting, I want to mention my calculations are on small fraction on Zaws (Staves Plague Keewar), but due to how Zaw values are calculated, this should apply to some others Zaws even if I currently have no proof of that yet.

With melee 3.0, I decided to build a new Plague Keewar staff, from a pure status one to something more crit based that will reach high status anways with bloodrush. To get as much DPS as possible, I decided to get the maximum damage at the cost of lowered attack speed (it make sense right ?)
I did this without really looking at the stats and went from 278 damages and 0.783 attack speed to 295 damages and 0.683 attack speed. After seeing this, my first reaction was "this low 17 damage increase onto 250+ is not worth the 0.1 attack speed loss, maybe I just badly built my Zaw", so I did calculations with variations of +/- daamges and +/- attack speed to ended up with this tab :
unknown.png

What it show is the more attack speed you have at the cost of damage, the more DPS you get, and it don't make sense to me. On melee, you don't have ammo and therefore, the more attack speed you have the better it is, because of status proc, combo build-up, and overall comfort because it allow you to react faster as you are not stuck in long animations. The only downside of attack speed is too much of it can mid-cancel your combo because it shorten the pause time, but this an extreme only achieved with absurd amount of it.

Right now on Plague Keewar, from 0.693 attack speed to 1.05, you also get about 31.6% more DPS.
Basically, what should happen instead is the more damage you get at cost of attack speed, the more DPS you get because you trade comfort and status/combo build-up
 for more damages.

I think the problem is there because attack speed and damages modifications on Zaw are flat value. From the wiki (pre-melee 3.0 though), Jai give +0.083 attack speed at the cost of -4 damages, while Ruhang give +14 damages at the cost of -0.067 attack speed. It means the higher base damage you have, the more benefit Jai will provide and inversly, the less base damage you have, the more venefit Ruhang will provide. This is a big problem because it mean you don't build your Zaw depending on what you want but instead stick with one you have to, depending on the strike base damage value.
To solve this issue, Jai and Ruhang should instead be percentage based, so, they always provide the same attack speed and DPS increase/decrease to give more customisation. Based on the melee 2.0 Zaws, I would say something like +20% damages -10% attack speed for Ruhang and +10% attack speed -10% damages for Jai.
It would mean having more Ruhang increase your DPS at the cost of attack speed (up to 12% more with Ruhang II) while Jai does the opposite  (up to 4% less with Jai II).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

To solve this issue, Jai and Ruhang should instead be percentage based, so, they always provide the same attack speed and DPS increase/decrease to give more customisation. Based on the melee 2.0 Zaws, I would say something like +20% damages -10% attack speed for Ruhang and +10% attack speed -10% damages for Jai.
It would mean having more Ruhang increase your DPS at the cost of attack speed (up to 12% more with Ruhang II) while Jai does the opposite  (up to 4% less with Jai II).

Do some extra math before assuming based on raw unmodded values since the not all damage and attack speed increases scale identically.
Pre crit vs status choices all zaws end up at close to same 1.4~ dps with pressure, fury, zerk, 2 elementals (or around 850 dps without zerk if we wanna be nice to status which unless its slash doesnt tend to care for base damage).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

After seeing this, my first reaction was "this low 17 damage increase onto 250+ is not worth the 0.1 attack speed loss, maybe I just badly built my Zaw", so I did calculations with variations of +/- daamges and +/- attack speed to ended up with this tab :
unknown.png

Nice job. This is surprising to say the least.

56 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

I think the problem is there because attack speed and damages modifications on Zaw are flat value. From the wiki (pre-melee 3.0 though), Jai give +0.083 attack speed at the cost of -4 damages, while Ruhang give +14 damages at the cost of -0.067 attack speed. It means the higher base damage you have, the more benefit Jai will provide and inversly, the less base damage you have, the more venefit Ruhang will provide.

When zaws had recently come out I checked what yielded the most dps, and it was the low attackspeed option like you'd expect. I have no idea if it's because I checked a different strike or becaüse it changed, but this theory supports the idea that it changed so I'm definitely gonna go with that.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
il y a 49 minutes, Andele3025 a dit :

Do some extra math before assuming based on raw unmodded values since the not all damage and attack speed increases scale identically.
Pre crit vs status choices all zaws end up at close to same 1.4~ dps with pressure, fury, zerk, 2 elementals (or around 850 dps without zerk if we wanna be nice to status which unless its slash doesnt tend to care for base damage).

DPS is the result of multiplying damages and attack speed, which means regardless of the value, multiplying one or another will result in the exact same DPS increase.
Let's take a few examples to show you that :

  • 50 damages and 2 attack speed with +165% damages and +30% attack speed, gives you 132 damges and 2.6 attack speed, so 344.5 dps.
  • 25 damages and 4 attack speed with +120% damages and +30% attack speed, gives you 66.25 damges and 5.2 attack speed, so 344.5 dps.
  • 100 damages and 1 attack speed with +120% damages and +30% attack speed, gives you 265 damges and 1.3 attack speed, so 344.5 dps.
  • 500 damages and 0.2 attack speed with +120% damages and +30% attack speed, gives you 1325 damges and 0.26 attack speed, so 344.5 dps.

And so on... Regardless of damage/attack speed distrubution and mods values, each attack speed and damage mods will affect your DPS the same way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

Regardless of damage/attack speed distrubution and mods values, each attack speed and damage mods will affect your DPS the same way.

>imagine not knowing that elemental mods/mods that arent base damage additive but scale off total base exist

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
il y a 2 minutes, Andele3025 a dit :

>imagine not knowing that elemental mods/mods that arent base damage additive but scale off total base exist

Elemental mods stack multiplicatively with base damage (so everything else) which also increase you DPS the same way, regardless of the base values.
Please think and take the time to do the maths before contradicting stuff you haven't took the time to understand.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

>imagine not knowing that elemental mods/mods that arent base damage additive but scale off total base exist

You are wrong. Please just stop.

1 hour ago, Senguash said:

When zaws had recently come out I checked what yielded the most dps, and it was the low attackspeed option like you'd expect.

When I did the calculation last time, a balanced build regarding speed and damage had the highest dps. I usually went fast anyway, for status.

Regarding the mystery of the original post; Melee weapons were recently changed. They all had their base damage increased by a large amount. As a direct consequence, the relatively small damage increases from grips and links have lost dramatically in value.

In short, the balance of Zaws has not been taken into account in the recent changes. As have many other things.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

SInce the U26 changes full attack speed Zaws have the highest dps yes.

The base damage differences between links and grips are much smaller comparatively while the attack speed vlaue sstayed the same which caused this shift. Orginally balanced Zaws had the best paper dps, mostly using Shtung or Korb due to their very high base dmg and offsetting it with a fast link (Jai). Now its jsut Sekalla or Peye with a fast link (Jai).

I mean in the end the most frustrating part is how you have rebuild most your Zaws since its not like there was a vast diversity in grips before, there was always that one mathemtically best grip.

Generally Zaws have become quite meidocre wepaons however which is a much larger issue. SInce the Melee Rework the top melee weapons beat Zaws in both crit and status at the same time for a lot of contenders and neither do Zaws have the base damage advantage they had before in many cases.

DE should take another look at Zaws so they become top end weapons again. They don't have to outright beat the other options but should tie them or give customization options on that level of budgeting. A Zaw Polearm should be able to hold itself against Orthos Prime and Lesion and currently they can't.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, lukinu_u said:

Elemental mods stack multiplicatively with base damage (so everything else) which also increase you DPS the same way, regardless of the base values.
Please think and take the time to do the maths before contradicting stuff you haven't took the time to understand.

 

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

You are wrong. Please just stop.

2 variables that dont scale linearly with eachother having multiple multipliers applies to each side does not give the same results, zaws didnt before (they were balanced around 80~ish base damage at 1 attack speed, but both max damage min speed and max speed min damage didnt get same % increases), same reason why even if one assumes 3.5 combo for skanas/weapons that got 3.5 base boost, the new melee patch was still a damag nerf. So not only are you ignoring big part of the damage math but your base argument has no ground to stand because Zaws never had proportional damage for attack speed (even if DE #*!%ed up the damage values hard enough for them to not be in the same ballpark/make some zaws S#&$ now based on which parts you pick instead of what weapon type).

1 hour ago, Raikh said:

DE should take another look at Zaws so they become top end weapons again. They don't have to outright beat the other options but should tie them or give customization options on that level of budgeting. A Zaw Polearm should be able to hold itself against Orthos Prime and Lesion and currently they can't.

MR 5 stitched trash should never compete with prime weapons unless you like a arcane effect on them, they already cost less effort and are achieved at a far sooner point in game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
vor einer Stunde schrieb Andele3025:

MR 5 stitched trash should never compete with prime weapons unless you like a arcane effect on them, they already cost less effort and are achieved at a far sooner point in game.

There is no point in custom/modular weapons if they can't compete with endgame weaponry. And they clearly have been designed to be top end melees as they were very top end before U26. SImilarly Kitguns are top end weapons.

Grinding out the better links also takes time and detracts from the starchart. Its not something someone should do before completing the Starchart, thus not making them early game or even really midgame weapons.

Their visuals also have no bearing of what the system they embody is supposed to do. Although its long overdue that you can equip skins on them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you really are a Melee Mastery, there is no need for these ... Math, proves.

Zaw's damage always have been base on normal damage. Now no more damage multiplier on normal FOR their new stupid melee system is heavy AND, heavy attack is bullsH*t ( you can't direct you melee's aim angle, the speed, the enemies's reaction + defenceless you will have )

And the Stances for zaw ... we all clear that W+ E is weaker than the rest of combo. And some stances have even reduced damage and speed ( Ex : plague keewar - Stances clashing forest ) Terrible .

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

with the way i build my zaws and mod them since the melee update generally if i build one with high attack speed innately I don't use attack speed mods in that weapon because i could use that slot for other supplemental stats such as status crit or combo efficiency etc.where as my slower attack speed zaws would have a primed fury or berserker or maybe even both so correct me if im wrong but wouldnt that style of modding make the slower zaws do more dps with the tradeoff of using a mod slot or two for attack speed with higher base damage? Unless maybe you put attack speed mods on the high base attack speed zaw but in my head that would defeat the purpose of having high base attack speed in the first place

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Le 22/11/2019 à 14:10, SirLethal a dit :

with the way i build my zaws and mod them since the melee update generally if i build one with high attack speed innately I don't use attack speed mods in that weapon because i could use that slot for other supplemental stats such as status crit or combo efficiency etc.where as my slower attack speed zaws would have a primed fury or berserker or maybe even both so correct me if im wrong but wouldnt that style of modding make the slower zaws do more dps with the tradeoff of using a mod slot or two for attack speed with higher base damage? Unless maybe you put attack speed mods on the high base attack speed zaw but in my head that would defeat the purpose of having high base attack speed in the first place

Putting attack speed on the already fast Zaw defeat the purpose of a fast Zaw, but that's actually the problem.
In the current situation, putting more attack speed mods on a fast Zaw provide a better DPS that using a slow Zaw with attack speed mods to make it comfortable to use, so the fast Zaw just have 100% more benefits.

Also, attack speed mod one of the best thing to suit to increase your DPS, regardless of the weapon. Let's do some maths with an hypothetic were base attack speed is comfortable to use and you only look for the higher DPS outcome.
For the maths we will consider Condition Overload multiplier at 5 status because it's the average you generally reach on target you don't kill in 1-2 hits.

  • The base stats are 100dmg, 1.00 attack speed, 20% status, 25% crit chance, x2 crit mulitpler (these are example to do the math, but it should work with any weapon).
  • On this weapon, you put Condition Overload, Bloodrush, Weeping Wounds, Primed Fever Strike, Organ Shatter and Primed Reach, so you end up with 2 free slots and an average dps of (100(1+6))*(1+1.65)*1*[1+(0.25*(1+6.6))*((2*(1+0.9)] = 15248.1
    • If you fill the free slots with 2 elemental mods (100(1+6))*(1+1.65+0.9+0.9)*1*[1+(0.25*(1+6.6))*((2*(1+0.9)] = 25605.3
    • With Gladiator Might and 1 elemental mod (100(1+6))*(1+1.65+0.9)*1*[1+(0.25*(1+6.6))*((2*(1+0.9+0.6)] = 26092.5
    • With Primed Fury and Berserker (100(1+6))*(1+1.65)*(1*1.55*1.75)*[1+(0.25*(1+6.6))*((2*(1+0.9)] = 41360.5
    • With Gladiator Might and Berserker (100(1+6))*(1+1.65)*(1*1.75)*[1+(0.25*(1+6.6))*((2*(1+0.9+0.6)] = 34085.6
    • With Berserker and 1 elemental mod (100(1+6))*(1+1.65+0.9)*(1*1.75)*[1+(0.25*(1+6.6))*((2*(1+0.9)] = 35746.7

As you can see, with the use of the most of the strongest melee mods, the way Primed Fury and Bersker multiply together with big values increase your damage by a lot compared to any other stats you could add and already have like crit, damage, etc... (and I'm not speaking about status because Weeping Wounds allow reaching 100% already).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
vor 14 Stunden schrieb lukinu_u:

Putting attack speed on the already fast Zaw defeat the purpose of a fast Zaw, but that's actually the problem.
In the current situation, putting more attack speed mods on a fast Zaw provide a better DPS that using a slow Zaw with attack speed mods to make it comfortable to use, so the fast Zaw just have 100% more benefits.

Its only a matter of base dps. If a slow Zaw had the most base dps it would be the one used ideally for the most part.

The only sdituation how you can make the slow weapons benefit mroe from AS is by making AS mods additive with the base attack speed. So a 0.8 wepaon with Berserker would get to 1.55 attack speed, a 1.0 to 1.75 and a 1.2 to 1.95 but that would give slower weapons a scaling advantage as AS mods would be intrinsically more powerful for slower weapons.

The problem with Zaws in particular is that the damage to attack speed ratio got shifted with U26 which pushed high AS Zaws to be the best. Zaws generally need attention as their stat budgeting in general doesn't really hold up with any of the top melees right now. Rebalancing attack speed and damage should happen in the same turn. It would generally help if all the grips would have a place because even before this slip up you mostly used Korb and Shtung with a fast link for optimal base dps. Seekalla and Peye had some niche application for very fats Zaws but the middle of the road grips including the palgue ones have always been useful for nothing and been universally inferior, not even manipulating crit or status in return for lower base dps.

vor 14 Stunden schrieb lukinu_u:

For the maths we will consider Condition Overload multiplier at 5 status because it's the average you generally reach on target you don't kill in 1-2 hits.

  • The base stats are 100dmg, 1.00 attack speed, 20% status, 25% crit chance, x2 crit mulitpler (these are example to do the math, but it should work with any weapon).
  • On this weapon, you put Condition Overload, Bloodrush, Weeping Wounds, Primed Fever Strike, Organ Shatter and Primed Reach, so you end up with 2 free slots and an average dps of (100(1+6))*(1+1.65)*1*[1+(0.25*(1+6.6))*((2*(1+0.9)] = 15248.1
    • If you fill the free slots with 2 elemental mods (100(1+6))*(1+1.65+0.9+0.9)*1*[1+(0.25*(1+6.6))*((2*(1+0.9)] = 25605.3
    • With Gladiator Might and 1 elemental mod (100(1+6))*(1+1.65+0.9)*1*[1+(0.25*(1+6.6))*((2*(1+0.9+0.6)] = 26092.5
    • With Primed Fury and Berserker (100(1+6))*(1+1.65)*(1*1.55*1.75)*[1+(0.25*(1+6.6))*((2*(1+0.9)] = 41360.5
    • With Gladiator Might and Berserker (100(1+6))*(1+1.65)*(1*1.75)*[1+(0.25*(1+6.6))*((2*(1+0.9+0.6)] = 34085.6
    • With Berserker and 1 elemental mod (100(1+6))*(1+1.65+0.9)*(1*1.75)*[1+(0.25*(1+6.6))*((2*(1+0.9)] = 35746.7

As you can see, with the use of the most of the strongest melee mods, the way Primed Fury and Bersker multiply together with big values increase your damage by a lot compared to any other stats you could add and already have like crit, damage, etc... (and I'm not speaking about status because Weeping Wounds allow reaching 100% already).

First slight error on the Gladiator Might part as you ignore the additional 110% CC from the Setbonus that adds onto Blood Rush. This would push the Might + Berserker Setup to ~38549.2 if I didn't do a mistake in the calculation, which bring sthe option a lot closer to the double AS one.

Its a bit strange that Berserker is multiplicative with other sources of Attack Speed. All the other multipliers avaiable are already covered in the base build you used, so obviously AS has as another multipleir the biggest advantage. Just would you expect a diminshing effect with stacking 2 Attack Speed mods like with everything else. Berserker is the outlier here as Primed Fury still provides a full 55% dps increase even with Berserker when it should only provide ~31.4% with additive behavior, which is a lot more in line with the other options. It would only sit at ~35062.6 with your setup instead.

Its a great showcase of how stacking different multipliers is the best thing to do. SInce we are relatively limited it also shows how pure crit and pure status weapons suffer from lacking multipliers. Attack Speed is right now the only thing left we can double stack without diminishing returns. Before U26 it wasn't that much of a focus as Blood Rush and other CC sources similarly multiplied with each other, especially Maiming Strike being quite brutal. And ofc CO being multiplicative with itself but that doesn't tkae up extra mod slots, it was just broken in general.

On a last note though. Comparisons like this can't measure the influence of status and certains elements. It might not be ideal to use PFS and even if it might be more vlauable to take a second element still for the damage multiplier or proc from the combined element. (like viral effectively doubling your damage as long as you can maintian it) Elements might also skew status procs for better or worse.
So while double AS is ideal from a pure multiplier stacking perspective. It isn't necessarily an easy choice to make. AS also providing more value than just sheer dps with faster combo stacking (less relevant now), more mobiltiy due to faster animations and faster status ramp for CO or armor stripping via corrosive also plays for AS though, making it a significantly more complex matter overall to truly minmax your throughput.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your chart only shows the lower end of attack speed in the attack speed vs base damage comparison. If you continue increasing your attack speed you'll notice that the DPS begins to decrease. It also bottoms out at a DPS value lower than one from increasing base damage.

There are actually multiple ways to get the same speed and damage combinations. Balanced zaws provide more DPS at the cost of decreased specialization.

Ultimately the difference in DPS between the high end and low end is about 30%, nothing earth shattering.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...