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Asdryu

0 base melee efficiency is too much.

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Channeling used to have some efficiency by default, but now there's none, unless you use zenurik, which kinda defeats the purpose of naramon's school.
I feel that like 2,5% or 5% default efficiency would be sufficient instead of every point you have.

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i don't disagree that by default only the majority of your Hit Counter should be consumed on Heavies, however technically no, Channeling did not have some Efficiency by default. it had a default Energy Cost per hit, not the same as having some native Efficiency.
as otherwise by your reasoning, depending on the size of your Energy Pool, Channeling would have had between 3000% and 16,000% default Channeling Efficiency. now i don't know about you, but that doesn't sound all that logical.

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I disagree, primarily because of what 0% base efficiency does.

In effect, it creates a divide between heavy attacks and scaling mods. The two are incompatible. Whilst this might seem bad, consider - that means that Heavy attacks can be allowed to be really strong without too much worry that in the process, DE will wind up buffing Scaling Builds back to 2.0 levels (which defeats much of the purpose of 3.0). Likewise, Scaling can be tuned however DE wants whilst also letting them play with Heavy attacks. Consider any time DE have tried to introduce a mod that was clearly designed to allow underperforming weapons to flourish, but it wound up just improving the meta instead - Hunter Munitions was probably intended for this, the idea being that it's not a very powerful mod but lets there be a niche alongside pets. But we all know where that went.

The efficiency thing lets DE balance two separate things and modding options in the same system. That's very valuable.

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1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

I disagree, primarily because of what 0% base efficiency does.

In effect, it creates a divide between heavy attacks and scaling mods. The two are incompatible. Whilst this might seem bad, consider - that means that Heavy attacks can be allowed to be really strong without too much worry that in the process, DE will wind up buffing Scaling Builds back to 2.0 levels (which defeats much of the purpose of 3.0). Likewise, Scaling can be tuned however DE wants whilst also letting them play with Heavy attacks. Consider any time DE have tried to introduce a mod that was clearly designed to allow underperforming weapons to flourish, but it wound up just improving the meta instead - Hunter Munitions was probably intended for this, the idea being that it's not a very powerful mod but lets there be a niche alongside pets. But we all know where that went.

The efficiency thing lets DE balance two separate things and modding options in the same system. That's very valuable.

Now people just need to realize that combo scaling vs heavy initial combo builds are conflicting things and
DE needs to realize that buffing true steel and SS wont do anything instead letting them create heavy attack only builds while reverting BR to a total crit multi, convert meme strike to a vigilante effect that gives 3 levels of crit with 100% chance on slide attack, rework rivens into selective corrupt mods one works for, make life strike work universally at 1-5% (maybe with a energy cost if you heal/proportional to your missing hp), undo stances that got nerfed like Tempo Royale, the 2 non-blind justice nikana stances, crimson dervish, etc, buff covert lethality to 6000% finisher damage, revert CO to 60% that buffs total damage but is additive instead of multiplicative with itself, make scythe models 140% bigger and 2h along with removing stance windup animations from them/pointless spins worse than warfan fanning, make heavy attack forced slash procs scale off base attack not base heavy attack damage AND make all stances forward combos have no animation locks.

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1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

Now people just need to realize that combo scaling vs heavy initial combo builds are conflicting things and
DE needs to realize that buffing true steel and SS wont do anything instead letting them create heavy attack only builds while reverting BR to a total crit multi, convert meme strike to a vigilante effect that gives 3 levels of crit with 100% chance on slide attack, rework rivens into selective corrupt mods one works for, make life strike work universally at 1-5% (maybe with a energy cost if you heal/proportional to your missing hp), undo stances that got nerfed like Tempo Royale, the 2 non-blind justice nikana stances, crimson dervish, etc, buff covert lethality to 6000% finisher damage, revert CO to 60% that buffs total damage but is additive instead of multiplicative with itself, make scythe models 140% bigger and 2h along with removing stance windup animations from them/pointless spins worse than warfan fanning, make heavy attack forced slash procs scale off base attack not base heavy attack damage AND make all stances forward combos have no animation locks.

Wow, everything you said after "things" was stuff  DE absolutely should not do. Impressive.

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DE advertised heavy attacks as a mechanic that is supposed to be used in tandem with light attacks. Basically "build up your combo, spend it on a heavy attack when it matters". But because a single heavy attack consumes ALL of your combo, even if it doesn't hit anything, it doesn't feel like a good idea to use it.

Ways to increase efficiency are rather limiting as well:

-Zenurik requires you to only use 1 focus school. Naramon is supposed to be THE melee focus school, no? What the hell is going on?

-Efficiency mods require a mod slot. I could have more range, more damage, more crits, more status, an additional elemental type and you think that some pathetic efficiency increase for 1 heavy attack is enough to overshadow stuff I mentioned previously?

-Getting a riven with efficiency is all about RNG and weapon dispo. Also requires a slot. Also requires you to sacrifice possibly better roll. Again, for a single heavy attack.

Then, add on top of it the fact that a vast majority of light attack builds uses stuff like Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds and it becomes even worse. Not only are you losing all of your damage multipliers(combo multiplier) for a single heavy attack, so the next heavy attack will be much weaker, you also lose large amounts of crit/status chance for light attacks. Even with efficiency mods or Zenurik it's still around a half of your power. There are breakpoints for orange and red crits, that means once you go below them, you become 2 times weaker. So you lose power constantly and have to build it up even though you could just roll with combo multiplier without nerfing yourself for the sake or 1 attack.

So the best way to use heavy attacks is to avoid combo counter management almost entirely and create a separate build for them. And that's the exact opposite of what DE had planned, at least if you consider what they were actually saying during devstreams.

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6 hours ago, Loza03 said:

I disagree, primarily because of what 0% base efficiency does.

In effect, it creates a divide between heavy attacks and scaling mods. The two are incompatible. Whilst this might seem bad, consider - that means that Heavy attacks can be allowed to be really strong without too much worry that in the process, DE will wind up buffing Scaling Builds back to 2.0 levels (which defeats much of the purpose of 3.0). Likewise, Scaling can be tuned however DE wants whilst also letting them play with Heavy attacks. Consider any time DE have tried to introduce a mod that was clearly designed to allow underperforming weapons to flourish, but it wound up just improving the meta instead - Hunter Munitions was probably intended for this, the idea being that it's not a very powerful mod but lets there be a niche alongside pets. But we all know where that went.

The efficiency thing lets DE balance two separate things and modding options in the same system. That's very valuable.

That's an interesting way of looking at it. Honestly, though, I'm not finding myself in agreement.

Having "scaling builds" and "heavy attack builds" so distinctly separate from each other means that you'll only ever be spamming one type of attack and never touching the other. This is bad for the simple reason that spamming a single thing is boring.
For those who've played the game in its earlier phases, this situation should look familiar-- it was a major problem that Melee 1.0 had, and the monotony of spamming one attack type over and over was a huge part of why Melee 2.0 was necessary in the first place.

It's been, like, six years and we're barely past square one in this regard. Don't get me wrong, it's great that players have the option of specializing into a heavy-spam build or a scaling build if they so please-- but basic attacks and Heavy attacks should BOTH BE USABLE IN THE DEFAULT STATE. The devs intended for heavy attacks to be occasionally woven in between regular strikes, but the current state of the game does not reflect this.

This isn't even that difficult to solve either! Instead of wiping the entire combo counter, heavy attacks should decrease your combo by 60 at base (i.e. -3 combo tiers). Enough combo is lost that heavy-spam is discouraged (and that dedicated heavy-spam builds won't get much use out of this buff), yet it's not going to completely destroy your Blood Rush build if you throw one out every now and then.
I'm sure this isn't perfect, but it's definitely a place to start.

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Channeling had a base energy cost, yes, but so it had negative efficiency as well (life strike), thus why I'm saying that there should be a basic cost for heavies as well.

As of now, the problem I seem to find with DE's model is this: they want us to use both, but it's not exactly working.
If you're using a scaling build, using the heavy will tamper down your normals so maybe we'll think about doing a build for heavies, but, we're really not gonna bring down a room with heavy attacks as opposed with normals.

It's the same old problem with enemy scaling in the end: if the heavy won't do its job, I won't even bother using it. More or less, I'll avoid this because I'm at peace that this is the model of scaling we're dealing and will keep doing.

There's a huge problem I have with heavy attacks: they're slow, they drain your combo and there are no aerials nor slide heavies (little side note: doing a heavy while sliding will let you do the 2nd type of heavy attack of your weapon). It's an extremely exposing attack that will get you in a lot of troubles if it doesn't do its job, so it's already punishing enough as it is. Lifting (on aerial slams) gives you a break, until the enemy isn't a demolyst and there aren't ancients, nullifiers and artic eximus, then you'll really need to get up close if you're crazy enough to consider melee to be a direct option.

To be able to follow this model, we need two mods: one to make combo counter scaling up fast and one for mandatory efficiency, which I'm in fact not a fan of.

I'm a fan of having different models to help combo going up faster, just not having one heavy to burn up everything by default.

Atm I have 3 different models in mind:

1) relentless combination, which is helped by slash procs
2) blocking
3) lifting. Yeah, this is why I put "on aerials slams" before. I don't really like lifting on heavy attacks or normals, sorry. Not sorry since sparring weapons went from an extremely convenient "heavy to- opening up for finishers (like daggers do now)," to "heavy to- lift." I mean they cause a similar problem to ragdolling [k ignore this following rant lol] (it would be much better if sparring's heavy made that aoe to make enemies lose their balance for finishers instead! We already have lifting on heavies with aerial slams and also fist weapon stances are full of those on normals!)

Now, Zenurik helps with having some efficiency, but Naramon helps with combo duration... Sounds balanced IF I'm only thinking about melee, but well, we all what Zenurik is good at, plus duration isn't gonna cut it that much when one single heavy attack will destroy all my combo, isn't it?

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vor 7 Stunden schrieb Lone_Dude:

DE advertised heavy attacks as a mechanic that is supposed to be used in tandem with light attacks. Basically "build up your combo, spend it on a heavy attack when it matters". But because a single heavy attack consumes ALL of your combo, even if it doesn't hit anything, it doesn't feel like a good idea to use it.

Then we just need to wait until they introduce that moment when "it matters". As of today you rather use either or, completely ignoring the other option. Heavy attacks are already in a bad position when facing armored enemies. Outside the weapon classes that have forced slash procs on heavy attacks you need to remove armor first, potentially killing the target in the process and eliminating the reason to use heavy attacks in the first place.

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6 hours ago, SortaRandom said:

That's an interesting way of looking at it. Honestly, though, I'm not finding myself in agreement.

Having "scaling builds" and "heavy attack builds" so distinctly separate from each other means that you'll only ever be spamming one type of attack and never touching the other. This is bad for the simple reason that spamming a single thing is boring.
For those who've played the game in its earlier phases, this situation should look familiar-- it was a major problem that Melee 1.0 had, and the monotony of spamming one attack type over and over was a huge part of why Melee 2.0 was necessary in the first place.

It's been, like, six years and we're barely past square one in this regard. Don't get me wrong, it's great that players have the option of specializing into a heavy-spam build or a scaling build if they so please-- but basic attacks and Heavy attacks should BOTH BE USABLE IN THE DEFAULT STATE. The devs intended for heavy attacks to be occasionally woven in between regular strikes, but the current state of the game does not reflect this.

This isn't even that difficult to solve either! Instead of wiping the entire combo counter, heavy attacks should decrease your combo by 60 at base (i.e. -3 combo tiers). Enough combo is lost that heavy-spam is discouraged (and that dedicated heavy-spam builds won't get much use out of this buff), yet it's not going to completely destroy your Blood Rush build if you throw one out every now and then.
I'm sure this isn't perfect, but it's definitely a place to start.

In the default state, they are both usable. In fact , they lead into each other nicely. If you don't build for either blood rush or for heavy attacks, then that system works entirely as intended. Combo has no effect on regular attack damage - I have tested this - so unless you explicitly mod for it, you have no reason to not use combo to hit big heavy attacks. That means the normal, intended gameplay loop of 'use light attacks to build up to heavy attacks is still very much alive and kicking. You can still build for it.

Is it as powerful as min-maxing to either end of the spectrum? No, but that's what the term min-maxing means. Minimising one element to maximise another. Allowing the maxed power without an associated minimisation was the major problem 2.0 had and was a huge part of why melee 3.0 was necessary in the first place, leading to things like Spin-to-win and other grossly unbalanced setups.

The playstyle is still probably too weak, and work still does need to be done, but setting it up that melee can benefit from both sides of the min-max pie is not the right move. As-is, Heavy Attacks are still limited by their weaker light attacks lowering their crowd clearing potential, and Scaling Builds by their lower burst damage against larger targets.

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13 hours ago, TheGrimCorsair said:

Wow, everything you said after "things" was stuff  DE absolutely should not do. Impressive.

Wow, i didnt know someone could be so objectively wrong, thanks for being the example.

3 hours ago, Loza03 said:

The playstyle is still probably too weak, and work still does need to be done, but setting it up that melee can benefit from both sides of the min-max pie is not the right move. As-is, Heavy Attacks are still limited by their weaker light attacks lowering their crowd clearing potential, and Scaling Builds by their lower burst damage against larger targets.

Its not even weak, its just badly half baked. Some weapons got blessed with forced slash procs on heavy attacks into being a even less interactive than melee 2.0 ever could be, some weapons dont even have proper heavy attack animations, some have terrible hitboxes and most of all they all have the windup which by RNG choice of a dart board in DE were given hard animation locks, free move or animation locks during just one part of the attack thus feeling extremely sluggish/weird to use in combo with having a static windup instead of just being a attack (or what charge attacks should have been, attacks that you actually charge up and could release at any time for proportionall more or less power the less or more time you held it charged).

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10 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Its not even weak, its just badly half baked. Some weapons got blessed with forced slash procs on heavy attacks into being a even less interactive than melee 2.0 ever could be, some weapons dont even have proper heavy attack animations, some have terrible hitboxes and most of all they all have the windup which by RNG choice of a dart board in DE were given hard animation locks, free move or animation locks during just one part of the attack thus feeling extremely sluggish/weird to use in combo with having a static windup instead of just being a attack (or what charge attacks should have been, attacks that you actually charge up and could release at any time for proportionall more or less power the less or more time you held it charged).

That much I can get behind. Better conveyance of 'rules' for the various elements, or general cleaning up is definitely something I agree. The wind-up having more consistent behaviour (I feel like the free movement is the best since positioning is very important for it) would be a great plus on its own. 

The windup itself should stay, primarily since it serves as a balancing element to heavy attacks (it leaves the player open), but it should have consistent behaviour, outside of duration (since again, balancing element)

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8 hours ago, Loza03 said:

In the default state, they are both usable. In fact , they lead into each other nicely. If you don't build for either blood rush or for heavy attacks, then that system works entirely as intended. Combo has no effect on regular attack damage - I have tested this - so unless you explicitly mod for it, you have no reason to not use combo to hit big heavy attacks. That means the normal, intended gameplay loop of 'use light attacks to build up to heavy attacks is still very much alive and kicking. You can still build for it.

Is it as powerful as min-maxing to either end of the spectrum? No, but that's what the term min-maxing means. Minimising one element to maximise another. Allowing the maxed power without an associated minimisation was the major problem 2.0 had and was a huge part of why melee 3.0 was necessary in the first place, leading to things like Spin-to-win and other grossly unbalanced setups.

When I said "default state", I meant a typical build with Blood Rush on it. It's not default in the sense of "no mods whatsoever", but I meant it as a standard, run-of-the-mill build that you'd see frequently on the majority of weapons. As opposed to the default state that you're describing (i.e. defined by a lack of scaling or heavy attack mods), which nobody will realistically be using once they actually... you know... obtain mods.
Saying "you can still build for it" is a bit disingenuous. Yes, it can technically be done, but you know as well as I do that it's laughably nonviable on the vast majority of melee weapons. You don't end up with this so-called "default state" by not minmaxing-- you end up in this state if you go out of your way to build your weapon poorly.

Also, in this thread about scaling-versus-heavy builds, spin2win (a subset of scaling builds, which we can all agree was a bad part of Melee 2.0) isn't really relevant.

 

8 hours ago, Loza03 said:

The playstyle is still probably too weak, and work still does need to be done, but setting it up that melee can benefit from both sides of the min-max pie is not the right move. As-is, Heavy Attacks are still limited by their weaker light attacks lowering their crowd clearing potential, and Scaling Builds by their lower burst damage against larger targets.

Okay, I feel like a misunderstanding has occurred.
We're not asking for the ability to take full advantage of scaling builds and heavy attack builds (i.e. the opposite ends of the specialization spectrum) at the same time. We're asking for the ability to use occasional (non-minmaxed) heavy attacks on scaling builds without instantly destroying the scaling part.

For comparison's sake-- even the most specialized heavy-attack builds can still use light attacks if the player so pleases. While it obviously won't be optimal for damage (save for extremely weak enemies), you aren't penalized for doing it, and it can even be useful against very-bulky enemies.
Scaling builds, on the other hand? A single heavy attack will instantly break the backbone of your entire build.

You see the problem here, yeah?

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58 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

When I said "default state", I meant a typical build with Blood Rush on it. It's not default in the sense of "no mods whatsoever", but I meant it as a standard, run-of-the-mill build that you'd see frequently on the majority of weapons. As opposed to the default state that you're describing (i.e. defined by a lack of scaling or heavy attack mods), which nobody will realistically be using once they actually... you know... obtain mods.
Saying "you can still build for it" is a bit disingenuous. Yes, it can technically be done, but you know as well as I do that it's laughably nonviable on the vast majority of melee weapons. You don't end up with this so-called "default state" by not minmaxing-- you end up in this state if you go out of your way to build your weapon poorly.

Also, in this thread about scaling-versus-heavy builds, spin2win (a subset of scaling builds, which we can all agree was a bad part of Melee 2.0) isn't really relevant.

If a property - in this case, light attacks benefiting from combo multiplier - has to be modded into a weapon then by definition it is not the default state. The default state is the base state. That much can still be built to provide - not adding in additional functionality whilst still making it stronger.

(also Spin-2-win is an example of what we don't want to make, nothing more)

1 hour ago, SortaRandom said:

Okay, I feel like a misunderstanding has occurred.
We're not asking for the ability to take full advantage of scaling builds and heavy attack builds (i.e. the opposite ends of the specialization spectrum) at the same time. We're asking for the ability to use occasional (non-minmaxed) heavy attacks on scaling builds without instantly destroying the scaling part.

For comparison's sake-- even the most specialized heavy-attack builds can still use light attacks if the player so pleases. While it obviously won't be optimal for damage (save for extremely weak enemies), you aren't penalized for doing it, and it can even be useful against very-bulky enemies.
Scaling builds, on the other hand? A single heavy attack will instantly break the backbone of your entire build.

You see the problem here, yeah?

I do see the problem, but we also need to bear in mind the potential outcome. Give this community an inch and they will take the golden mile. Offer base functionality to let the two sides interact even slightly, and somebody's going to figure something out sooner or later and we're back to square one.

I feel like a decent solution might be a mod designed for this 'jack of all trades' playstyle. It'd probably have to make scaling mods incompatible with one another (like true steel/sacrificial steel), to be safe but since the mods aren't typically used together anyway it shouldn't be too bad. I see this being a Nightmare style mod.

Battle Frenzy: +30% crit chance, stacks with combo multiplier. +60% combo efficiency. I'm not so good with numbers so balancing is probably a bit off.

If that's incompatible with Blood Rush/Weeping Wounds, that gives a mod that's a fair bit weaker than Blood Rush, but offers the benefit of being able to use heavy attacks.

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2 hours ago, Loza03 said:

If a property - in this case, light attacks benefiting from combo multiplier - has to be modded into a weapon then by definition it is not the default state. The default state is the base state. That much can still be built to provide - not adding in additional functionality whilst still making it stronger.

I get what you mean, but semantics. Potato potahto and all that.
As long as you understand my point that "using heavy attacks = shooting yourself in the foot for the VAST MAJORITY of melee weapons, and this is bad", that's all that matters.

 

2 hours ago, Loza03 said:

I do see the problem, but we also need to bear in mind the potential outcome. Give this community an inch and they will take the golden mile. Offer base functionality to let the two sides interact even slightly, and somebody's going to figure something out sooner or later and we're back to square one.

I feel like a decent solution might be a mod designed for this 'jack of all trades' playstyle. It'd probably have to make scaling mods incompatible with one another (like true steel/sacrificial steel), to be safe but since the mods aren't typically used together anyway it shouldn't be too bad. I see this being a Nightmare style mod.

Battle Frenzy: +30% crit chance, stacks with combo multiplier. +60% combo efficiency. I'm not so good with numbers so balancing is probably a bit off.

If that's incompatible with Blood Rush/Weeping Wounds, that gives a mod that's a fair bit weaker than Blood Rush, but offers the benefit of being able to use heavy attacks.

I feel like you aren't putting this issue into perspective.

A core gameplay mechanic is completely unusable on >90% of melee weapons, and you're defending this state because... one or two new overpowered weapon builds might appear?

Look, the solution to this whole issue is literally to make heavy attacks consume fewer hits at base. This makes heavy attacks usable (read: not spammable, not gamebreakingly overpowered; just usable) on scaling builds, and that's it. This buff would have virtually no effect on heavy-spam builds, because getting any use out of it would require both Combo Duration and Attack Speed, and melee weapons have a finite number of mod slots.

If the worst case scenario DOES happen, and some ungodly overpowered weapon+build+warframe+arcane combo does emerge, then... it can be addressed and nerfed separately.
Keeping this hypothetical monster in its unborn state is NOT worth the cost of-- repeating for emphasis-- letting a core gameplay mechanic be completely unusable on >90% of melee weapons.

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55 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

I feel like you aren't putting this issue into perspective.

A core gameplay mechanic is completely unusable on >90% of melee weapons, and you're defending this state because... one or two new overpowered weapon builds might appear?

How many overpowered builds were there in 2.0 again? Two? Three? Blood Rush with high range, Memeing Strike, Condition overload...

If something's Overpowered, then it's overpowered. That has knock-on effects.

57 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

Look, the solution to this whole issue is literally to make heavy attacks consume fewer hits at base. This makes heavy attacks usable (read: not spammable, not gamebreakingly overpowered; just usable) on scaling builds, and that's it. This buff would have virtually no effect on heavy-spam builds, because getting any use out of it would require both Combo Duration and Attack Speed, and melee weapons have a finite number of mod slots.

I'm more concerned about the Blood Rush scaling builds. Frankly, the main thing limiting those setups right now is their inability to make full use of heavy attacks, giving them high sustained damage, but not having a good burst damage option without losing their main source of damage, just as Heavy attack builds lack sustained damage. Giving them access to a cheaper heavy attack - especially since an option that takes absolutely no mod capacity already does exist in the form of Zenurik which would absolutely stack - could negate that entirely. And, that would indirectly affect the heavy spam builds because their main niche is now taken by another build that also fills another.

1 hour ago, SortaRandom said:

If the worst case scenario DOES happen, and some ungodly overpowered weapon+build+warframe+arcane combo does emerge, then... it can be addressed and nerfed separately.
Keeping this hypothetical monster in its unborn state is NOT worth the cost of-- repeating for emphasis-- letting a core gameplay mechanic be completely unusable on >90% of melee weapons.

Considering that the hypothetical monster would render all of the good 3.0 has done moot? Yes, especially since it would be caused by base functionality, which is much harder to precision-nerf than mods.

It is worth the cost, especially when adding in a mod dedicated for this would fix it with far fewer potential repercussions, whilst also enabling a potential third viable build route to enter the picture.

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3 hours ago, Loza03 said:

How many overpowered builds were there in 2.0 again? Two? Three? Blood Rush with high range, Memeing Strike, Condition overload...

If something's Overpowered, then it's overpowered. That has knock-on effects.

What do those have to do with heavy attack efficiency? Do you really think that making heavy attacks not-completely-detrimental will be even remotely close to the overpoweredness of BR+MS or BR+CO?

3 hours ago, Loza03 said:

I'm more concerned about the Blood Rush scaling builds. Frankly, the main thing limiting those setups right now is their inability to make full use of heavy attacks, giving them high sustained damage, but not having a good burst damage option without losing their main source of damage, just as Heavy attack builds lack sustained damage. Giving them access to a cheaper heavy attack - especially since an option that takes absolutely no mod capacity already does exist in the form of Zenurik which would absolutely stack - could negate that entirely. And, that would indirectly affect the heavy spam builds because their main niche is now taken by another build that also fills another.

Considering that the hypothetical monster would render all of the good 3.0 has done moot? Yes, especially since it would be caused by base functionality, which is much harder to precision-nerf than mods.

It is worth the cost, especially when adding in a mod dedicated for this would fix it with far fewer potential repercussions, whilst also enabling a potential third viable build route to enter the picture.

There are a crapton of things limiting a standard combo-scaling build. You make it sound like adding a bit of heavy efficiency will remove the only barrier between a BloodRush Dakra Prime and literal godhood or something.
In reality, adding reliable burst damage to your combo-scaling builds can already be simulated by holding a shotgun in the other hand. Yeah, it removes the only intrinsic "weakness" of such a build, but... it's not exactly gamebreaking, is it? (I realize that the shotgun example is kinda cheating since it requires a dedicated gun slot, but you get the idea.)

If improved heavy attack efficiency causes the burst damage from heavy attacks to happen too often for heavy-attack builds to look enticing, then the devs can tune this by simply increasing the base combo cost a bit more. DE is fully capable of making micro-adjustments; it's not as if heavy attack viability is on some binary scale from "literally suicidal" to "game-deletingly-overpowered" or something.

 

Look, your entire argument is based on the idea that improved base-heavy-attack-efficiency will unleash some freakish leviathan monstrosity of an overpowered build into the game... yet, aside from that tidbit above, you haven't once explained what such a build might actually be.

Would you mind elaborating on this? As in, giving a realistic example of a genuinely gamebreaking, fun-deleting build that would be possible with a bit more heavy attack efficiency, but isn't possible right now?

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I think what we really learn here is that the scaling mods (Blood Rush and CO) were always a bad idea. Not as bad as Meme Strike was (or all of them being allowed together at once!), but still a negative effect on the game.

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7 hours ago, SortaRandom said:

What do those have to do with heavy attack efficiency? Do you really think that making heavy attacks not-completely-detrimental will be even remotely close to the overpoweredness of BR+MS or BR+CO?

Do you think those builds leapt, fully formed, into the arms of the player? No, it was a series of steps, starting with ignoring key weaknesses.

7 hours ago, SortaRandom said:

There are a crapton of things limiting a standard combo-scaling build. You make it sound like adding a bit of heavy efficiency will remove the only barrier between a BloodRush Dakra Prime and literal godhood or something.
In reality, adding reliable burst damage to your combo-scaling builds can already be simulated by holding a shotgun in the other hand. Yeah, it removes the only intrinsic "weakness" of such a build, but... it's not exactly gamebreaking, is it? (I realize that the shotgun example is kinda cheating since it requires a dedicated gun slot, but you get the idea.)

Except the shotguns are nowhere near as powerful as heavy attacks. Heavy attacks would be just as powerful as they are on heavy attack builds, since Blood Rush gives similar critical chance to Sacrificial Steel. Even Tigris Prime can't hit the power level of Melee Heavy attacks, which is why they need to be kept away from sustainable DPS, just as Tigris, Rubico or other very high burst damage is. In the same vein, most Assault Rifles can't match the sustained DPS of scaling setups, which is why they need to be kept away.

The other reason using a gun slot for it is acceptable? Because that's using the game's loadouts to your advantage. That's theory crafting on multiple levels. That's part of the reason why we now have the ability to switch on the fly.

7 hours ago, SortaRandom said:

Look, your entire argument is based on the idea that improved base-heavy-attack-efficiency will unleash some freakish leviathan monstrosity of an overpowered build into the game... yet, aside from that tidbit above, you haven't once explained what such a build might actually be.

Would you mind elaborating on this? As in, giving a realistic example of a genuinely gamebreaking, fun-deleting build that would be possible with a bit more heavy attack efficiency, but isn't possible right now?

The argument that it wouldn't be as overpowered, so taking another step towards it is justified is effectively the kind of argument that lets slippery slopes happen. We know the negative effects not keeping a tight leash on balancing has.

Changing the base functionality to heavy attacks only consuming 60 combo would give most heavy attack setups reliable, low-cost access to massive burst damage that can oneshot a vast majority of mobs. Now add Zenurik on top of that for a cost of 24 combo per heavy attack. That's one level, a very, very quick and easy thing to restore. Blood Rush builds would have access to everything, just as they did before.

 

I entirely understand where you're coming from.  The current, two-path modding situation does disincentives using the two attack types in tandem. However, I do not believe the ends justify the means of a base alteration that could lead to much worse. That much would be better fixed by adding mods intended for such a middling pathway, since those mods can be more carefully controlled and balanced.

Is there any reason why, if you are so concerned about not being able to use heavy attacks and light attacks in the same build, you would find mods intended for such a build pathway unacceptable?

 

1 hour ago, vaarnaaarne said:

I think what we really learn here is that the scaling mods (Blood Rush and CO) were always a bad idea. Not as bad as Meme Strike was (or all of them being allowed together at once!), but still a negative effect on the game.

I agree. Whilst I think they're under control as of now, loosening them or giving them freer rein by default is a very bad idea.

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and I think we derailed enough.
All I said at the beginning was that heavies deleting all your combo counter if you don't have zenurik or any mods for it feels too much.

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Can I ask what exactly are we scaling towards?

Because you don't need 12x multiplier to deal with regular grineer enemies, even at lvl 100. The point of multiplier that high is so you can deal with those heavy units. That is kill them wth light attacks.

The point of light-heavy attack hybrid build is to make it so you can comfortably kill regular enemies with light attacks even at low/no combo and should a heavily armored target appear you can kill them with a heavy attack without having to stack high multiplier.

Sure, it doesn't scale into infinity nearly as well but that's not the point of it at all. I need it to work on Grineer at lvl 120 at most. That's the point I optimize for and it works well enough.

Now I agree that some stances and heavy attacks are bad for this. But that is a stance/weapon issue, it's not a mod issue.

If you want to scale as high as possible then just stick to light attack build. If you want to have heavy attacks as well then build for efficiency. If you want to just scale to a specific point then hybrid build works perfectly fine so you can comfortably tweak your weapon to reach that point where regular enemies die easily enough to light attacks and heavy untis will die to heavy attacks.

3 hours ago, Asdryu said:

All I said at the beginning was that heavies deleting all your combo counter if you don't have zenurik or any mods for it feels too much.

It's not.

If you're using heavy attacks on heavies (and presumably kill them that way) what do you need the multiplier for? Do you need more than 4x to deal with regular enemies? Then you need to tweak your mods to reach better balance between heavy attack damage and light attack damage. It's a balancing act, you're not supposed to have your cake and eat it too.

Now just how balanced it is we can argue about but just giving players default efficiency is not the solution to this.

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8 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Do you think those builds leapt, fully formed, into the arms of the player?

They literally did, yeah. Up till the Melee 3.0 changes, BloodRush/MaimingStrike/ConditionOverload had been virtually unchanged since the exact instant they were released. Atterax builds were stronger than even the best Zaws and had been around for years prior.

This is getting super nitpicky and off topic, though, so i'll try to keep the rest of this short.

8 hours ago, Loza03 said:

-snip-

You've changed your main argument from "It would be gamebreakingly overpowered!" to "it wouldn't be gamebreakingly overpowered, BUT it would be a small first step towards creating something gamebreakingly overpowered!". What I'm gleaning from this is that the actual overpowered part... does not currently exist. i.e. We can cross that bridge when we get to it.

The slippery slope argument does not warrant (once again) a core melee functionality being completely unusable on >90% of melee weapons. 

 

8 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Changing the base functionality to heavy attacks only consuming 60 combo would give most heavy attack setups reliable, low-cost access to massive burst damage that can oneshot a vast majority of mobs. Now add Zenurik on top of that for a cost of 24 combo per heavy attack. That's one level, a very, very quick and easy thing to restore. Blood Rush builds would have access to everything, just as they did before.

Increase the cost, then, no? That 60 isn't set in stone. (Also, Zenurik should be balanced around the core mechanic and not the other way around.)

Overall, you still seem to be deadset on viewing the heavy-attack-on-most-builds situation as a very binary "It HAS to be horrifically detrimental to the point of unusability, otherwise it would define the meta and have literally no weaknesses!". I feel like a broken record at this point, but I gotta emphasize yet again that an "in-between" solution exists.

8 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Is there any reason why, if you are so concerned about not being able to use heavy attacks and light attacks in the same build, you would find mods intended for such a build pathway unacceptable?

In the first place, I don't want an overall power level increase to scaling builds. I want occasional heavy attacks become a viable option, not THE viable option. Improving heavy attack efficiency would accomplish this, if it didn't cost a mod slot (i.e. a huge chunk of my build's overall power).
Alas, heavy attack efficiency is so bad at base that trying to improve it means gimping my own build for no tangible benefit.

 

EDIT: I completely failed at keeping this short lol
In any case, I've made my point. Much of this post was just me repeating things I've already said, so at this point I'm not sure there's much reason for me to post further.

Aside from our stubbornness about each of our respective points, I'm glad we could have a civil discussion about the topic! 👍

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