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Roble_Viejo

The DMC "floating" mechanic DE introduced with melee 3.0 is not only obnoxious, it's useless

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6 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

This could come down to my personal preference, but I always see the "just forward" melee command—specifically the "just forward" one, mind—as problematic just as a principle. Warframe is kind of like a driving game in that going forward is a huge portion of what players do to the point of being just a constant. Compare that to, for example, fighting games, where rushing in the opponent's direction happens sometimes but isn't constant. In those situations, having Z-inputs kind of makes sense, because you're always starting from neutral and might tap forward for either command. Same for hack-n-slash like DMC, where targeting sets in that context of "forward isn't movement, it's an attack input". In Warframe, though, it ends up more like having the drift function bound to the accelerator in a racing game. Sure, you'll want to drift here and there, but you're pretty much always on the accelerator so not drifting is some weird lack of input. Having the back button do things as well kind of works better, but it still does kind of require getting off the proverbial accelerator.

Entirely a question of how easy it is to squish through enemies.
E.G. on old tempo royale, the best "forward movement" was actually to keep block cancelling the first attack/signature doublespin just as if you were doing quick attacks due to hitcount and aoe, swapping to august mesto when there are heavies around or armor ramps up and then going for bold reprise slams when actual dps is required AND resp calma could have fit/sometimes aptly triggered when you killed off a enemy already and wanted a quick jump (if it werent a pause combo and DE coded pauses to scale off attack speed). Thats good design meshing animations and modifiers to do naturally teach you the stance and why its such a massive shame it got completely gutted with animation locks and snapping.
For all of what i said, the only case where you kept the forward walk block cancel doublespin without walking forward was when various meh enemies with a few eximi or heavies but no ancients surrounded, which would have perfectly fit a a static e combo as a additional option.

Also, in most spectacle fighters, forward/directional inputs are still directional imputs working as soft or hard gap closers (especially in ones with bad pc ports thus no mouse or in general smooth camera control). NEVER AS DE JUST DID WHERE THEY ANIMATION LOCK SOMEONE IN PLACE THUS MOVING YOU FORWARD LESS THAN THE STATIC COMBOS.

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3 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Entirely a question of how easy it is to squish through enemies.
E.G. on old tempo royale, the best "forward movement" was actually to keep block cancelling the first attack/signature doublespin just as if you were doing quick attacks due to hitcount and aoe, swapping to august mesto when there are heavies around or armor ramps up and then going for bold reprise slams when actual dps is required AND resp calma could have fit/sometimes aptly triggered when you killed off a enemy already and wanted a quick jump (if it werent a pause combo and DE coded pauses to scale off attack speed). Thats good design meshing animations and modifiers to do naturally teach you the stance and why its such a massive shame it got completely gutted with animation locks and snapping.
For all of what i said, the only case where you kept the forward walk block cancel doublespin without walking forward was when various meh enemies with a few eximi or heavies but no ancients surrounded, which would have perfectly fit a a static e combo as a additional option.

Also, in most spectacle fighters, forward/directional inputs are still directional imputs working as soft or hard gap closers (especially in ones with bad pc ports thus no mouse or in general smooth camera control). NEVER AS DE JUST DID WHERE THEY ANIMATION LOCK SOMEONE IN PLACE THUS MOVING YOU FORWARD LESS THAN THE STATIC COMBOS.

I mean to emphasize more the racing game metaphor and how it often feels awkward to do non-forward-input combos in a game that has such an emphasis on forward movement. I don't disagree with anything about the design of combos and how so many are static and screw with momentum (so god damn many) in a way that makes the forward input combos jarring. I just find pressing forward / not pressing forward in Warframe to be a...sub-optimal way to differentiate combos. Especially when the block combo input is a thing that feels so much nicer by comparison.

That thought was also born from a misunderstanding of what I thought Teridax meant so...that's a thing, too.

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On 2019-11-20 at 9:14 PM, Roble_Viejo said:

Very good point. Thank you. 

I wanna know, how would you fix this?

I'm responding to an old post, but I'd change the "lifted" status by forcing Stealth Damage Bonuses (+700% damage, stacking additively with Crit Damage) on affected enemies. Bonus points if the same applied to Impact procs. Give these otherwise-useless CC effects an actual damage incentive. 
This would also be a huge leap towards solving the issues of:

  • Lifted Status being useless
  • Impact procs being useless
  • Impact-focused melees being less desirable
  • Pure-status (i.e. critless) melees being useless

in one fell swoop.

 

Mechanically, I honestly haven't had any problems with the lifting. I see people comparing it to Jat Kittag, but the ragdolling has always been fairly controlled for me, and the enemy has never drifted backwards so quickly that it flew out of my reach.
I do use Primed Reach on all of my builds, though (along with stances that don't root the player to one spot), so take this with a grain of salt.

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9 hours ago, taiiat said:

ofcourse Channeling was bad, because what you could get for using it, wasn't very good.
so the only problem was the numbers and Mods of it, not how the second mode worked mechanically.

you're mixing the past with the future, or something. Channeling offering not much for extra Damage? that could have been fixed by.... increasing some numbers and having more Mods.

But that's not it, though, because it did present a lot of advantages: if you used Life Strike, you could heal yourself from low to full health with practically every strike, for example. More damage is also always more desirable, as seen by the way we mod. It really just was a matter of channelling being this redundant people didn't feel like they needed outside of a few specific situations.

9 hours ago, taiiat said:

it wasn't unused because it was mechanically clunky to use or anything, it was unused because the game didn't give you anything significant for using it. think of how most of the Channeling Mods were the lowest statistical Mods available to Melee. getting the weakest benefits for the opt in extra cost? that's just dumb. but it's also just numbers, and numbers are easy to change.

Sure, channelling mods weren't great, but again, you can't rely on mods to single-handedly make a thing interesting. I do in fact think one of the problems with channelling was clunkiness, because despite the button inputs being as simple as they come, clearly players didn't really feel like they needed to hold a bunch of buttons just to melee. While I'd be interested in special melee attacks that did something drastically different, I just do not see the utility in having Attack A and Attack B if the only difference is that one deals more damage, particularly since at the end of the day regular melee attacks can be given just as much utility as heavy ones (e.g. Healing Return vs. Life Strike).

8 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

It wasnt really underused as badly designed till zenurik and then if you wanted to use it you had to use zenruik and a efficiency build with Pflow which isnt always the fun option.
Or play with nekros (which was counterproductive for a long time due to channeling corpse removal till a PoE patch removing corpses too fast for desecrate targetting), play with a tanky enough setup to use rage/HA or use trinity (which didnt need any benefits channeling provides)...

It does bring now the issue of life strike being dead for non-machete setups and no corpse removal for ivara/ash/loki/rhino/whoever you want to use for pure stealth no detection fun.

Oh, I agree, the removal of channelling messes up stealth play even more... but then I don't think stealth should have relied on channelling to begin with, and I don't think the effect was worth using even when Energy was plentiful. It's not even a matter of channelling being super weak, either, it's just that it fundamentally didn't feel interesting for many players to press/hold down another button just to inflict the same attacks with a bit more damage.

7 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

EDIT: Or just the two combos as they are now. Emphasis more on "one for gap closing, one for regular dicing", less on the technical mechanics of how that would look. 

This I can get more behind... except I also feel that could probably come from the same set of attacks: the enduring problem with our attack animations is that they still forcibly move our warframes around, such that there's this need for separate combos based whether or not we're moving. If our attacks were performed independently of our movement, we would likely not need a dedicated gap closer combo, because we'd be able to close the gap and attack at the same time just by moving towards our target.

7 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

ATM I'm exhausted and can't really concentrate very well on the finer points of the heavy attack stuff, but I've seen a lot of suggestions about improving it with things like combo increasing heavy attack range. I don't know if bringing that up might prove fruitful but I've always kind of felt that the heavy attack concept isn't bad, it's just lacking the payoff to benefit Warframe's gameplay. Super strong attack against one target doesn't work, so more targets...?

IDK, I need a nap right now.

I think this, along with what you mentioned with the nikana combos, is probably the better way to go about alternate attacks: when the difference is just one of damage and speed, it's not really a meaningful choice, but when one attack has a truly different purpose, whether it's applying CC, striking more enemies, and so on, there is a genuine decision to be made. I don't think there need be much more than two different choices in this respect, but I think that if there are, the difference should be based on attacks that have different use cases, rather than attacks that cover the same purpose, with only variations in damage or the like.

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this is my reply to some of your guys' concerns. I was originally gonna post this here as a comment but it became so lengthy I said why not make it its own thread because i feel like this subject's come up alot recently in the forums

give it a read and if you're up to it a playtest and tell me your thoughts

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1 hour ago, SirLethal said:

this is my reply to some of your guys' concerns. I was originally gonna post this here as a comment but it became so lengthy I said why not make it its own thread because i feel like this subject's come up alot recently in the forums

  1. Making a post just to advertize one's thread on someone else's thread is generally considered poor form.
  2. Your thread isn't just lengthy, it's a giant, unbroken block of text with a meandering sentence structure, and little to no logical sequence between the points you make. Break your post up into paragraphs, and try to dedicate each paragraph to a concrete point you are trying to make.
  3. Arguing that people "don't really get the design philosophy" behind the melee changes when criticizing them isn't really relevant to the popularity of those changes, and comes off a tad dismissive. Similarly, there seems to be this very black-and-white belief in your post that criticism of something means pure dislike of it, and that if one likes something one cannot truly criticize it, a belief I find unhelpful to constructive discussion. I like some parts of the melee update, particularly the generally smoother attack animations relative to 2.0, but I fail to see why that should stop me from pointing out its flaws, for example.

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2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

This I can get more behind... except I also feel that could probably come from the same set of attacks: the enduring problem with our attack animations is that they still forcibly move our warframes around, such that there's this need for separate combos based whether or not we're moving. If our attacks were performed independently of our movement, we would likely not need a dedicated gap closer combo, because we'd be able to close the gap and attack at the same time just by moving towards our target.

Free movement attacks likely should be the norm regardless, but I'm thinking of gap closing techniques on the scale of Blind Justice, where the motions cover distance above and beyond what directional inputs can do.

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I think this, along with what you mentioned with the nikana combos, is probably the better way to go about alternate attacks: when the difference is just one of damage and speed, it's not really a meaningful choice, but when one attack has a truly different purpose, whether it's applying CC, striking more enemies, and so on, there is a genuine decision to be made. I don't think there need be much more than two different choices in this respect, but I think that if there are, the difference should be based on attacks that have different use cases, rather than attacks that cover the same purpose, with only variations in damage or the like.

I feel like this is what DE was trying to do, based on the update description and what with block combos having more forward movement, but the result was more miss than hit.

I also think that attacks need a different feel to match the different purpose. Blind Justice's standing block combo might have ragdoll CC its non-block brethren lacks, but they both look and feel the same that I've mixed up the two until my target goes flying across the room*. That is where damage and speed differences can come into play (e.g. also with heavy attacks), not to be the only difference, but to help accentuate one.

*Then again, maybe this speaks to CC not being as much of a deciding factor? Most melee attacks stagger enemies in some manner, plus the heavy slams, and in the case of Blind Justice, the slide attack. CC options being so universal in melee means a combo getting one isn't especially novel compared to, for example, an attack getting 12x the reach.

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9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:
  1. Making a post just to advertize one's thread on someone else's thread is generally considered poor form.
  2. Your thread isn't just lengthy, it's a giant, unbroken block of text with a meandering sentence structure, and little to no logical sequence between the points you make. Break your post up into paragraphs, and try to dedicate each paragraph to a concrete point you are trying to make.
  3. Arguing that people "don't really get the design philosophy" behind the melee changes when criticizing them isn't really relevant to the popularity of those changes, and comes off a tad dismissive. Similarly, there seems to be this very black-and-white belief in your post that criticism of something means pure dislike of it, and that if one likes something one cannot truly criticize it, a belief I find unhelpful to constructive discussion. I like some parts of the melee update, particularly the generally smoother attack animations relative to 2.0, but I fail to see why that should stop me from pointing out its flaws, for example.

first off I didn't "make a post just to advertise my own forum" as i literally stated I typed this whole thing here in the comments section but it became so long and the issues that were presented had come up so often i thought it'd be better to just make it a post of its on which i then linked here because i still wanted to get my point across to the people here in this thread since this is where it originated

secondly i don't see how you don't understand the points and how they don't make sense if you actually read it when i literally connect everything together...it was 4 in the morning and I just kept dumping out my thoughts but i read over the post at least 4-5 times before posting to check for spelling errors and clarity...I'll give you the unbroken block of text bit because that's simply what it is and admittedly it could be broken up to be easier on the eyes but the rest of what you said was unwarranted and was also not constructive to the conversation at all I didn't ask for criticism about the sentence structure and overall structure of my post you responded to none of the content in the post and i bet you didn't even try out my methods for yourself before coming here to berate me...you're saying i come off as dismissive when your reply is completely dismissive to what i was saying

third I never criticized anyone I simply gave feedback about some of my findings that i found to be solutions to some of the things people were unhappy with and maybe unaware of based on what some of my friends who I actually play with, people i've met in discord, and people on the forums have been saying to me about the new combo system and their understanding of how it works and brought those things to the attention of others...at no point did i even slightly dismiss anyone else's perspective i simply offered my own and invited you to try it for yourself which would have come across clearly if you had actually read what i posted before replying...I said multiple times throughout the post that the system isn't perfect and i was just offering a new angle to look at things and you've completely disregarded the whole point of the post to presume what my intentions and beliefs are and tbh you sound hypocritical saying that my post as unhelpful to constructive criticism when your post is the exact same thing..my post was never about criticism in the first place it was about offering a new perspective/angle to view things from which again is also why i thought it needed its on thread as it's an entirely different conversation

but anyway all that being said I've gone and broken up the post to make it easier to digest if you wanna actually read what I had to say 

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