Something feels "missing" with Ember

[(PSN)RazorPhoenix970]

So I've messed around with Ember and she's so much better, she's more interactive and fun. However I just feel Accelerant should have been kept instead of Fire Blast, let me explain

Accelerant allowed Ember to boost the power of all heat damage dealt and increased her cast speed, this allowed you to run pure heat on your weapons and be effective even more so when Fireball Frenzy was reworked to also apply to you. In Ember's present state where she casts a lot more often and inflicts a lot more heat procs Accelerant would have been the perfect fit to tie all her synergies together as it also makes perfect sense that it could expel heat for Immolation.
So how would I have it incorporated: Bring it back as it was with the addition that when you generate heat with Immolation and use Accelerant it will inflict a heat proc to all enemies in range and dispel the same amount of heat as Fire Blast does now

Lastly I do recall suggesting Ember have armor strip of some kind in her kit sometime before her rework but if I had to choose between boosting the damage of her unique element or generic armor stripping I would've chosen the former because it was the unique thing she did among the primary elemental frames and let's face it armor strip is a band aid to the long ignored underlying problem of enemy scaling.
Additionally since heat has been changed to deal with armor additional armor stripping feels redundant, adding Accelerant would allow all four of her abilities to serve a unique purpose in my opinion. It just feels like Accelerant belongs in this rework.

Yeah yeah I know, this will also be posted in the feedback thread

[Pizzarugi]

But she's press-4-to-win again.

That's what all of the lazy players wanted, right?

[(PSN)RazorPhoenix970]

9 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

But she's press-4-to-win again.

That's what all of the lazy players wanted, right?

😂 please you know I already have a post dealing with this kind of subject, I don't need another one...I just want to echo this feeling of a missing puzzle piece I have about her rework

Edited November 21, 2019 by (PS4)RazorPhoenix970

[EinheriarJudith]

1 minute ago, (PS4)RazorPhoenix970 said:

😂 please you know I already have a post dealing with this kind of subject, I don't need another one...I just want to echo this feeling of a missing puzzle piece I have about her rework

imo DE removed accelerant because of how broken heat damage is now. almost kinda feels like all the people who said heat was bad were lying *snickers*

[(PSN)RazorPhoenix970]

6 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

imo DE removed accelerant because of how broken heat damage is now. almost kinda feels like all the people who said heat was bad were lying *snickers*

@EinheriarJudith's words and views not mine🤷‍♂️...just putting it out there

[EinheriarJudith]

1 hour ago, (PS4)RazorPhoenix970 said:

~snip~

for me, fireball or fireblast should have been removed, fireball frenzy is a lesser version of flash accelerant so if they removed either of them atleast we could have kept flash accelerant and people could chose their favored style of play. weapon buff or power spam.

i said before in another thread about WoF that, it could stay or go and i wouldnt care but the loss of accelerant was the worst choice DE could have made.

[Raikh]

Fireblast already helps the heat damage by stripping armor. Although Fireblast overall still doesn't really do enough on its own. It costs a lot of energy doesn't really do any significant damage and while it is a mandatory tool for heat management it "just" stripping aromor feels weird. I don't think that making it increase fire damage taken like Accelerant is necessarily the right solution though.

Generally you often cast Fireblast witohut really wanting to or without it creating value, especially against unarmored targets.

Heat as a proc went from pretty bad to pretty good. The DoT component now stacking is very storng and the armor reduction while ironically not very relevant for Ember herself is also fairly strong. Beforehand repeated heat procs did kinda nothing and the damage type itself is absically just fine, not crazy good int erms of match up but alos not terrible. So multiplying heat damage might be a bit too good now, especially with Accelerants original numbers. Same case for Fireball Frenzy which you can pretty much just slap ona build as its no longer a multiplayer onyl tool. (which is amazing btw)
I'm not really sure which component I'd like to see added to it. An energy cost reduction would certainly be welcome as being able to cast the ability regardless of its effect on enemies is way too important to cost 75 energy at base. Ember is already fairly energy hungry right now, which could use some toning down..I would like the ability to have a more universal application for it, instead of being jsut a heat sink that coincidentally strips armor.

 

[EinheriarJudith]

10 minutes ago, Raikh said:

~snip~

Heat as a proc went from pretty bad to pretty good.

Wrong. though i do agree that heat procs had a problem that could have easily been fixed by just making it stack or deal increased damage over its duration. heat damage still wrecked shield and red hp.

they indirectly buffed every viral/corrosive/heat builds (heres looking at you plague kripath)

Edit: it went from good to broken

Edited November 21, 2019 by EinheriarJudith

[(PSN)RazorPhoenix970]

13 minutes ago, Raikh said:

Fireblast already helps the heat damage by stripping armor. Although Fireblast overall still doesn't really do enough on its own. It costs a lot of energy doesn't really do any significant damage and while it is a mandatory tool for heat management it "just" stripping aromor feels weird. I don't think that making it increase fire damage taken like Accelerant is necessarily the right solution though.

Generally you often cast Fireblast witohut really wanting to or without it creating value, especially against unarmored targets.

Heat as a proc went from pretty bad to pretty good. The DoT component now stacking is very storng and the armor reduction while ironically not very relevant for Ember herself is also fairly strong. Beforehand repeated heat procs did kinda nothing and the damage type itself is absically just fine, not crazy good int erms of match up but alos not terrible. So multiplying heat damage might be a bit too good now, especially with Accelerants original numbers. Same case for Fireball Frenzy which you can pretty much just slap ona build as its no longer a multiplayer onyl tool. (which is amazing btw)
I'm not really sure which component I'd like to see added to it. An energy cost reduction would certainly be welcome as being able to cast the ability regardless of its effect on enemies is way too important to cost 75 energy at base. Ember is already fairly energy hungry right now, which could use some toning down..I would like the ability to have a more universal application for it, instead of being jsut a heat sink that coincidentally strips armor.

 

I want Fire Blast to be replaced by Accelerant (I guess that should have been the first line of the post but anyway). With heat being in the state that it is now I don't see the point of giving Ember armor strip on top of that Accelerant offered other benefits that are directly impactful on how she plays now. Just give it the additional utility of being a heat sink.

Simply, remove Fire Blast put back Accelerant and make it the heat sink, no armor strip heat already deals with that

[Raikh]

vor 33 Minuten schrieb EinheriarJudith:

Wrong. though i do agree that heat procs had a problem that could have easily been fixed by just making it stack or deal increased damage over its duration. heat damage still wrecked shield and red hp.

they indirectly buffed every viral/corrosive/heat builds (heres looking at you plague kripath)

Edit: it went from good to broken

Heat is only increased against cloned flesh, infested and infested flesh. Its neutral against shields and only deals half damage against proto shields even.

Heat is not a naturally super amazing damage type. The proc beforehand was super weak comapred tot Toxin or Slash.

Accelerant Ember heat focussed builds didn't do damage because heat was already good. It did deal damage because you can slap a huge damage multiplier on literally any damage type and it will deal ridiculous amounts of damage if the enemy is unarmored. Accelerants multiplier was just that insane and you could even push that harder by having 2 augments giving even more heat damage, had absolutely nothing to do with it being heat damage specifically.

vor 27 Minuten schrieb (PS4)RazorPhoenix970:

I want Fire Blast to be replaced by Accelerant (I guess that should have been the first line of the post but anyway). With heat being in the state that it is now I don't see the point of giving Ember armor strip on top of that Accelerant offered other benefits that are directly impactful on how she plays now. Just give it the additional utility of being a heat sink.

Simply, remove Fire Blast put back Accelerant and make it the heat sink, no armor strip heat already deals with that

For higher levels armor strip is more potent that even like quadrupled fire damage.

But I'm certainly no fan of the entire armor clown fiesta. And if its ever gonna be solved an accelerant like effect is certainly more future proof than armor stripping and more generally applicable anyway.

I would say it needs to be a weaker verison of Accelerant though. If not a slightly different functionality altogether. Accelerant pumped up with Ability Strength was way too degenerate of a multiplier even if it only applied to one element. Player damage multipleirs should be reigned in, just as armor on the enemy side. It also dobule dips on Ability Strength which is pretty hot, bad pun itnedned, but usually you don't want double dipping mechanics as tehy cna ge tout of hand pretty quickly.

It doesn't really change much on the gameplay front, as its still used the same way as Fireblast essentially. Its more of a fucntionality and power oriented change. Overall it should be an improvement although you might run faster into problems against armored targets right now, whereas unarmored are no issue at all anyway. I think there might be more interesting ways to achieve something similar as Accelerant tbh felt a bit band-aidy but Fireblast is just as much a band-aid if not more.

[EinheriarJudith]

15 minutes ago, Raikh said:

Heat is only increased against cloned flesh, infested and infested flesh. Its neutral against shields and only deals half damage against proto shields even.

shields have no DR any neutral damage to shield are full damage unlike armor. i know what accelerant did. i feel its loss just like anyone who played ember like a weapon platform/team buffer.

[Raikh]

vor 1 Minute schrieb EinheriarJudith:

shields have no DR any neutral damage to shield are full damage unlike armor. i know what accelerant did. i feel its loss just like anyone who played ember like a weapon platform/team buffer.

Different health types including shields have different damage type resistances or weaknesses. Proto SHeilds for instance take 50% reduced damage from heat.

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Damage/Heat_Damage

Shields are obviously still a non-issue as is any form of unarmored enemy. Heat isn't a particularly good damage type based on its match-ups. Its just that any damage type buffed tenfold does well.

[EinheriarJudith]

9 minutes ago, Raikh said:

Different health types including shields have different damage type resistances or weaknesses. Proto SHeilds for instance take 50% reduced damage from heat.

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Damage/Heat_Damage

Shields are obviously still a non-issue as is any form of unarmored enemy. Heat isn't a particularly good damage type based on its match-ups. Its just that any damage type buffed tenfold does well.

you keep acting like i dont know what heat does while ignoring that i said heat still wrecked shield and red hp which it did and still does. the only issue heat had was its procs not stacking and its damage against HIGH armor. Slash > Viral > corrosive > toxin > heat > everything else. this is still true even after heats buff.

Edit: i might even go as far as saying heat and toxin are equal now if toxin didnt still bypass shield altogether.

Edited November 22, 2019 by EinheriarJudith

[Raikh]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb EinheriarJudith:

you keep acting like i dont know what heat does while ignoring that i said heat still wrecked shield and red hp which it did and still does. the only issue heat had was its procs not stacking and its damage against armor. Slash > Viral > corrosive > toxin > heat > everything else. this is still true even after heats buff.

The thing is, it doesn't matter that you wrecked shields or armorless targets. ANY damage type wrecks shields and unarmored health. Its not that I'm not believing you, its that its no achievement and doesn't speak for the strength of anything.

Heat being on the top of the bad elements doesn't make it good. What made it good was the absolutely ridiculous multiplier and extra heat damage Ember could provide. It could've multiplied the worst element in the game and it would still result in absolutely devastating power.

Heat Procs before U26 were so weak that they might as well not have existed. Heat damage isn't anytihng special match up wise. So it was essentially just neutral damage. Thats in no way "good". Thats all I'm talking about.

Heat right now is fantastic, which is great because we need a lot of the elements to be better.

Your list also lacks Gas and as long as you don't run 4x CP or other forms of compelte armor strip I would also put Radiation in front of heat, quite simply because of how strong it is against Alloy armor as it is so frequent among higher ranking armored units and bosses. But thats not even really relevant to the point.

 

 

 

[EinheriarJudith]

2 minutes ago, Raikh said:

The thing is, it doesn't matter that you wrecked shields or armorless targets. ANY damage type wrecks shields and unarmored health. Its not that I'm not believing you, its that its no achievement and doesn't speak for the strength of anything.

Heat being on the top of the bad elements doesn't make it good. What made it good was the absolutely ridiculous multiplier and extra heat damage Ember could provide. It could've multiplied the worst element in the game and it would still result in absolutely devastating power.

Heat Procs before U26 were so weak that they might as well not have existed. Heat damage isn't anytihng special match up wise. So it was essentially just neutral damage. Thats in no way "good". Thats all I'm talking about.

Heat right now is fantastic, which is great because we need a lot of the elements to be better.

Your list also lacks Gas and as long as you don't run 4x CP or other forms of compelte armor strip I would also put Radiation in front of heat, quite simply because of how strong it is against Alloy armor as it is so frequent among higher ranking armored units and bosses. But thats not even really relevant to the point.

gas is just AOE toxin (dont know why DE did this but ok) and as you saw toxin is in front of heat. id never put radiation in front of heat. maybe in combo with rad/heat but never in front.

i did also recognise that one of heats problems was its procs. it was something that needed to happen but heat being bad as a damage type before the update? no.

[Raikh]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb EinheriarJudith:

gas is just AOE toxin (dont know why DE did this but ok) and as you saw toxin is in front of heat. id never put radiation in front of heat. maybe in combo with rad/heat but never in front.

i did also recognise that one of heats problems was its procs. it was something that needed to happen but heat being bad as a damage type before the update? no.

Bad excuse for not listing Gas, its still its onw distinct element, even if the procs deal toxin damage.

And you don't give a reason why heat is a better choice than radiation for general use, ofc ignoring old Ember synergies.

Please explain to me what made heat good before U26 by itself. Saying it is doesn't make it so and I see it neither having particularly interesting strong match-ups nor did it have a notable proc as you yourself also pointed out.

[EinheriarJudith]

14 minutes ago, Raikh said:

Bad excuse for not listing Gas, its still its onw distinct element, even if the procs deal toxin damage.

And you don't give a reason why heat is a better choice than radiation for general use, ofc ignoring old Ember synergies.

Please explain to me what made heat good before U26 by itself. Saying it is doesn't make it so and I see it neither having particularly interesting strong match-ups nor did it have a notable proc as you yourself also pointed out.

i chose heat over radiation because it deals bonus damage to Red HP ive said this a few times now. it makes it stronger than radiation damage wise. fire panic is not something to overlook either enemies under the effect of radiation can still shoot you where fire panic stops them completely (unless they poise through).

• i would not chose radiation over heat while fighting infested. (deals less damage than heat)
• i would not use radiation over heat while fighting corpus. (all corpus are shielded except oxium opsrey so less damage to shield than heat)
• i would not use radiation over heat on grineer if armor is gone. (again less damage than heat)
• if grineer have armor i would still not chose radiation over heat because of corrosive (corrosive procs strip alloy too which would have given rads bonus damage  so why would i use it over heat when armor will be gone?).

i feel like this is common knowledge. and i shouldnt have to explain reasons why i would chose heat over radiation.

 

Edited November 22, 2019 by EinheriarJudith

[Raikh]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb EinheriarJudith:

i chose heat over radiation because it deals bonus damage to Red HP ive said this a few times now. it makes it stronger than radiation damage wise. fire panic is not something to overlook either enemies under the effect of radiation can still shoot you where fire panic stops them completely (unless they poise through).

• i would not chose radiation over heat while fighting infested. (deals less damage than heat)
• i would not use radiation over heat while fighting corpus. (all corpus are shielded except oxium opsrey so less damage to shield than heat)
• i would not use radiation over heat on grineer if armor is gone. (again less damage than heat)
• if grineer have armor i would still not chose radiation over heat because of corrosive (corrosive procs strip alloy too which would have given rads bonus damage  so why would i use it over heat when armor will be gone?).

i feel like this is common knowledge. and i shouldnt have to explain reasons why i would chose heat over radiation.

 

It deals 25% more damage to cloned Flesh (Grineer) and low ranked infested (Infested,Infested Flesh solely. It doesn't deal increased damage to the hp of Corpus.or high ranking Infested lIke Ancients.

For all types heat is good against there is atleast one that is equally good what the match-up is concerned while providing a stronger proc (talking pre-Update ofc) which makes it completely outclassed on a match-up basis.

A damage type that is outclassed on every front is not good in my book. Because you never have a legitimate reason to run it over another element. To be clear it wasn't the worst damage type but it was bad comparatively to the options you had. Outside of Ember you never had a reason to run it if you wanted optimal throughput.

There are match-ups that rad is worse than heat, yes, but when I would rank elements I would cosnider the "global" importance of an element. Radiation is the choice for Eidolon hunting and highly effective against Sortie bosses like Ambulas or Tyl Regor. Radiation is also for weapons that don't strip armor which gives pure crit weapons a way of dealing with alloy armor without needing external armor stripping or generally deal with alloy armored units that are status immune (Wolf was I think and ofc already mentioned Eidolons)

While these are not groundbreaking it atleast has certain situations where it is the best choice without needing an excessive multiplier.

 

[JefTheReaper]

Personally I feel there is something off with her 3de.

It feels very weak, and its only real purpose to cool down your 2de.

I don't think it actually killed any enemies for me too, just some damage to those that are close, and pushing those at a further range.

Not saying it should be a powerhouse skill, but it could use a bit more power, scaling off the current "heat" % of your 2nd.