Blink nerf and railjack archwing gameplay.

[zakaryx]

I just took the Itzal out into the plains to try out ripline and it's extremely hard to use in any effective way.

 

Miss an enemy by a few pixels? You're now hurtling towards the ground and can't move away for the couple seconds that the ability lasts.

I'm pretty sure hyperion thrusters makes you faster than actually using the ripline as mobility.

 

However

If ripline had its range doubled on ground missions, and octupled in space, and had the drag duration sped up quite a bit, It could actually be a decent traversal ability.

As it is right now it's worthless in space and clunky as hell on plains/valis.

Oh and holding the button should pull enemies while tapping should use the ripline. That way you can't screw it up by using the wrong one, becuase you aimed slightly off target at an enemy three hundred meters away.

 

Having two abilities that pull enemies towards you is just a weird decision. If you give ripline a radial pull and change cosmic crush to something else ( a radial CC maybe) it would give the IIzal more options in missions.

[(XBOX)Almighty Deity]

I main Valkyr and I barely ever use ripline. I couldn't imagine using it with experimental controls. That sounds like cancer at first thought. All this to add a nerfed version of blink to all archwings...

I get that they're trying, and I get the premise. Make the Itzal perform like some Aldnoah.Zero kataphrakt in space battles swinging around asteroids using tethers to dogfight, but for 95% of the use case of archwings, it isn't actually running dedicated archwing missions.

[Andele3025]

7 hours ago, m0b1us1 said:

So what do they give itzal for such a massive nerf? A nerf that would reduce travel time to a mere fraction of the original? Must be something amazing right? Nope... they give it valkyr's worst ability... rip line... ome data on what is used. Then actually take some time and think about the core issues and how to properly address said issues instead of throwing a band aid on it.

Issue isnt giving Itzal ripline, its that they took ripline and fixed it for movement (but not for enemy pull, as it pulls you without killing your momentum, but still doesnt kill enemy momenum 1/3 of the way toward you as valkyr ripline does to her when you try to spiderman around), BUT FORGOT ARCHWING HAS COLLISION DAMAGE (also they forgot to make it scale of AW mods other than efficiency).
The mechanics/idea of ripline are solid, its the pull strengths that are switched, meanwhile for Archline its that they didnt give itzal immunity to collision damage and that its single target instead of aoe inside entire reticle (and that you cant pull big ships).

[Rogunz]

• Quote

42 minutes ago, GruntBlender said:

Better than having no control over what direction you're going. Now AW is accessible to us plebs that don't have 10,000 flight hours in thunderstorms.

The only thing they needed to do to make archwing accessible is make it easy to stop and add an optional horizontal lock.

Completely removing inertia and adding a universal blink basically removes any reason to use flight mode outside of long distance travel. You really can't fight in it anymore because both speeds are too fast and there is no reason to use it to move around when you can blink to where you need to be in the actually controllable hover mode.

That works fine for current archwing missions because all enemies do is come at you in a straight line but it's going to be awful for Empyrean. The new fighter enemies they have shown off will be extremely difficult to hit if you can't maneuver like they do and you'll be stuck either taking potshots or using the larkspur to auto-aim at them for you.

 

[Andele3025]

Only issue is that you cant boost while moving up/down AND shoot/aim at the same time.

 

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

Ripline on the Itzal, you would be forgiven for thinking it's a joke - that ability is useless on Valkyr, why would anyone want to have it on an Archwing?

Its not useless, it just has its pull strengths reverse of what they should be on valkyr (enemies get yote off 80 rooms before instead of momentum killed 1/3rd in while valkyr loses all momentum 1/3rd in instead of just boosting her further), something actually fixed on Archline... issue is they forgot Archwings take collision damage so its actually a suicide button (does work well on get over here for enemies, tho it should let you drag down the bigger ships instead of just dargyns/force crash grineer and corpus dropships to melee them).

Edited November 23, 2019 by Andele3025

[shut]

I feel like I'm in the minority in that I'm... not satisfied with the changes.
Like, yeah, the removal of rolling (like, the 6DOF flight sim crap) is a HUGE improvement from before, and I love that up/down is now consistently relative to the direction of the camera. But "sprinting" in AW feels like total poop, because:

• you can only go forward. Even if you hold S and roll backwards, you're still moving forward.
• Not inputting a direction = moving forward. Forward input = afterburner. (Seriously, does this not feel weird to anyone else?)
• Afterburner is barely faster than just sprinting. Probably because it's bound to a key that we already hold instinctively.

Basically, if you want to maneuver quickly, then you've got to use your camera for steering. In a shooting game. This is bad.
Don't even get me started about those poor folks who play with sprint toggle.

 

WHAT I'D PREFER:

• "Sprinting" lets you move in any direction you please. Just like sprinting in the rest of the game, but this time including up/down.
• "Afterburner" is activated when Jump+Crouch is held. Just like Bullet Jumping in the rest of the game.
• Afterburner speed is increased slightly.

That's it. It would be consistent with the base game's controls, and it would prevent the silly issues of "sprint only works in one direction and forces me to choose between moving and aiming".

Edited November 23, 2019 by SortaRandom

[GruntBlender]

6 minutes ago, Rogunz said:

The only thing they needed to do to make archwing accessible is make it easy to stop and add an optional horizontal lock.

I disagree. The old system had major flaws with respect to velocities and acceleration in different directions, as well as inconsistent momentum and turning.

 

4 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

• "Sprinting" lets you move more quickly in any direction you please. Just like sprinting in the rest of the game, but this time including up/down.
• "Afterburner" is activated when Jump+Crouch is held. Just like Bullet Jumping in the rest of the game.
• Afterburner speed is increased slightly.

Wouldn't it be too easy to accidentally hit things if you're not looking where you're going? It's not an issue with warframes, but for AW it might be. Still, I'd like to have an option for that as there's no fast strafing currently. Jump+Crouch for afterburner interferes with your proposal to move quickly in every ditection. When I press Ctrl+Space, should it 'sprint' up or activate afterburner? Though I would agree with slowing down overall movement but making sprinting and/or afterburner faster.

[Andele3025]

5 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

I feel like I'm in the minority in that I'm... not satisfied with the changes.
Like, yeah, the removal of rolling is a HUGE improvement from before. But "sprinting" in AW feels like total poop, because:

• you can only go forward. Even if you roll backwards, you're still moving forward.
• Not inputting a direction = moving forward. Forward input = afterburner. (Seriously, does this not feel weird to anyone else?)
• Afterburner is barely faster than just sprinting. Which in turn is barely faster than Wukong's 2.

Basically, if you want to maneuver quickly, then you've got to use your camera for steering. In a shooting game. This is bad.

Camera for steering is perfect, issue is that the boost (shift) defaults forward movement instead of wherever you are strafing. Left-right up-down seems to just slightly nudge you at a 15~35 degree angle away from forward while boosting instead of boost that direction. Now for left-right that kinda makes sense with how AW are designed, but for up and down its very iffy/forces you to slow down, however due to low/barely any design put into AW missions and open world stuff being static/in one area only, it only comes up in sharkwing and titania usage.

[Sylonus]

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

Much better. I kind of miss the rolling, but it's a small price to pay for actually having precise control over your movement.

The Itzal however... the new teleport is nice for short bursts, but useless for long distance travel. And Ripline on the Itzal, you would be forgiven for thinking it's a joke - that ability is useless on Valkyr, why would anyone want to have it on an Archwing?

Basically, Itzal is now for when you have a riven that needs you too shoot stuff from far away while invisible. That's about it.

Nah, Itzal is still for everything... 99% of Archwing is still just getting from A to B the fastest, and nothing else really matters, 3 second cooldown on blink means sprint speed matters all that much more, and guess who has the highest, and his 3 will be even more used for collecting loot now that we can't use his energy on anything else that matters.

Now in actual archwing missions, there's plenty of reason to use things that aren't Itzal, but nobody plays those for long, just to get their stuff and go... when we use archwing 99% of the time it's just about traversing POE or OrbV quickly, and so we're going to use whatever frame is the fastest for that, it's still Itzal.

Addendum: I'm with you on the movement changes, flying upside down was funny, but a small price to pay for a much more usable system, but we took a big hit on overall speed with the blink nerf, and I think it was totally unwarranted, and doesn't fix the perceived problem in the first place.

Edited November 23, 2019 by Sylonus

[shut]

20 minutes ago, GruntBlender said:

Wouldn't it be too easy to accidentally hit things if you're not looking where you're going? It's not an issue with warframes, but for AW it might be. Still, I'd like to have an option for that as there's no fast strafing currently. Jump+Crouch for afterburner interferes with your proposal to move quickly in every ditection. When I press Ctrl+Space, should it 'sprint' up or activate afterburner? Though I would agree with slowing down overall movement but making sprinting and/or afterburner faster.

I mean, AWs punish collisions a bit more than warframes do, but otherwise they'd be practically identical. The control scheme I'm suggesting is literally identical to the other 99% of the game (aside from the additions of "sprint up" and "sprint down").

- If you activate press Ctrl+Space, you launch yourself in the direction of the camera. Just like bullet jumping. (It's sprinting that shouldn't be camera-locked.)
- If you want to "sprint up", you simply hold Space (up) while sprinting. Just like you'd hold WASD while sprinting to "sprint fwd/back/left/right".
- If you instinctively try to bullet jump upwards by looking up and hitting Ctrl+Space, then you'll Afterburn upwards which accomplishes the exact same thing.

 

18 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Camera for steering is perfect, issue is that the boost (shift) defaults forward movement instead of wherever you are strafing.

That's what I mean, yeah. Because it defaults to forward movement, you're forced to swing the camera around if you want to move in any other direction. Which is just silly.

Edited November 23, 2019 by SortaRandom

[BigKahuna]

2 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

By a handful of seconds.

Hek, people can be such drama queens when their cheese gets toned down.

I was going to try to have a discussion with you on how Eidiolon hunting works at a 5x3+ level and how the changes to blink will most likely hurt them (even though I rather clearly highlighted them in my first post). Then I started to wonder how some one would believe it was only a handful of seconds that would be lost to the changes.  Then I started to wonder why some one would say that only a handful of seconds isn't important on anything where you are on a timer.  Then I checked your profile.  Congrats on your 2 Hydrolyst captures, seriously.  I'm sure that you've worked hard at it and not taking anything away from them.  But it's pretty clear that you are completely ignorant to the topic that is being discussed.  Thank you for your snide remarks, and have a great day.

Edited November 23, 2019 by BigKahuna

[Chaemyerelis]

The real fix it to get rid of that silly eidolon timer. Nothing worse than being timed out on content you like. 

Right now its the only semi challenging thing I like to do in the game either solo or in pugs and its annoying to have to wait for.

[GruntBlender]

5 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

I mean, AWs punish collisions a bit more than warframes do, but otherwise they'd be practically identical. The control scheme I'm suggesting is literally identical to the other 99% of the game (aside from the additions of "sprint up" and "sprint down").

- If you activate press Ctrl+Space, you launch yourself in the direction of the camera. Just like bullet jumping. (It's sprinting that shouldn't be camera-locked.)
- If you want to "sprint up", you simply hold Space (up) while sprinting. Just like you'd hold WASD while sprinting to "sprint fwd/back/left/right".

Well, in AW currently you can keep boosting into a wall and continually lose health, so it's a bit different.

Sorry, I mistyped. Or rather misremembered the control scheme, it's all that damn muscle memory. You're right, there's nothing inhibiting controls of sprinting in any direction including up and down, apart from pressin Shift+Ctrl with physical fingers😁.

[Andele3025]

11 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

- If you activate press Ctrl+Space, you launch yourself in the direction of the camera. Just like bullet jumping. (It's sprinting that shouldn't be camera-locked.)
- If you instinctively try to bullet jump upwards by looking up and hitting Ctrl+Space, then you'll Afterburn upwards which accomplishes the exact same thing.

We agree on the rest but im not sure how/why the AW dodge should be up+down (feels perfect on being the same key that normal WF dodge is), hell, blink even works as a dodge effect because no-longer-itzals blink disjoints projectiles/lockon.

Tho i did rebind/dont use default keybinds.

[shut]

6 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

We agree on the rest but im not sure how/why the AW dodge should be up+down (feels perfect on being the same key that normal WF dodge is)

Hm? The dodge binding is exactly the same, though?

EDIT: To clarify, I want up+down to activate Afterburner. Just like how up+down activates Bullet Jump on foot.
Dodging (i.e. tapping the "dodge" button, where AW's forward dodge has been replaced with a Blink) works wonderfully already, and should stay the same as it is right now.

Edited November 23, 2019 by SortaRandom

[Nickstarship]

9 hours ago, 8faiNt said:

So what is the plan here de? are you trying to accomplish so players cant do 6x3 anymore?

3 seconds delay? yeah im down.. all the way. I agree that it was too op but this wont work. Dont get me wrong I think 3 seconds is the sweet spot but 

you need to improve it by either giving us a mod that reduces the blink time OR add charges to our blink make it so we have at least 3 charges to blink and they should recharge overtime 

this is a huge step back to traveling and while I dont mind the travel time in open world missions this is straight up a crucial nerf to eidolon fight which it will be without a doubt.

I agree. I think making charges similar to TRACER from Overwatch would be a nice addition, maybe like 3-5 that recharge over 15 seconds, keeping or lowering the current duration

[CoefficientOfCool]

5x3+ crowd seems like a pretty creative bunch... they'll figure out a workaround. and if not...

 

*shrugs*

 

life will go on

[DrivaMain]

11 minutes ago, Chaemyerelis said:

The real fix it to get rid of that silly eidolon timer. Nothing worse than being timed out on content you like. 

Right now its the only semi challenging thing I like to do in the game either solo or in pugs and its annoying to have to wait for.

Sure, but remove arcanes from Eidolons as a price. We don’t want people spending thousands of platinums on them complain because they are much more “available and cheaper” to the masses.

[Andele3025]

5 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

Hm? The dodge binding is exactly the same, though?

Im 99% sure control space isnt the dodge roll/backflip on any keybind (mostly because DE has a bloodcurse against PC usage by not letting people use modifiers without overly fiddly macro setups), thus why these parts

22 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

- If you activate press Ctrl+Space, you launch yourself in the direction of the camera. Just like bullet jumping. (It's sprinting that shouldn't be camera-locked.)
- If you instinctively try to bullet jump upwards by looking up and hitting Ctrl+Space, then you'll Afterburn upwards which accomplishes the exact same thing.

dont make sense to me up+down/space+ctrl should result in the same as forward+back/w+s does in not moving you or the last input/keydown overwriting the first one till keyup.

Edited November 23, 2019 by Andele3025

[shut]

5 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Im 99% sure control space isnt the dodge roll/backflip on any keybind (mostly because DE has a bloodcurse against PC usage by not letting people use modifiers without overly fiddly macro setups), thus why these parts

dont make sense to me up+down/space+ctrl should result in the same as forward+back/w+s does in not moving you or the last input/keydown overwriting the first one till keyup.

I feel like you're misunderstanding. I've only been making suggestions for afterburner-- NOT the dodge/backflip/blink/etc functionality. Those should remain bound to the Dodge key (tapping "Shift" by default), as they always have been.

Right now, pressing down+up (ctrl+space) while on foot produces a Bullet Jump.
I would like pressing down+up (ctrl+space) while in AW to produce an Afterburner.

Edited November 23, 2019 by SortaRandom
clarity

[SpringRocker]

I don't know what's so great about no inertia and either sitting at a dead stop or going 140kph with no in between.

Honestly at this point you have more control with spoiler-kiddo to go anywhere in 200m with in 3 seconds. It seems people just use it for fast overland speeds so what's the point of removing control from the player?

Just wait until they go back to space combat, suddenly those same people will start complaining about:

• Not being able to shoot at things above/below.
• Not being able to shoot things when moving because they're either too far away or going too fast.
• Not having speed control because they either fly past everything or sit like a stationary target.

I get that people want the controls dumbed down but at this point the controls are for people that want a taxi, not an archwing.

[AdunSaveMe]

3 hours ago, Aldain said:

I second that notion, it had no point, being upside down was no different than being right side up.

I know, it was the worst. Rolling had absolutely no impact on the flight model; it didn't help you turn, it didn't help you slow down, it was purely just a visual thing, and locked you out of strafing while boosting. Also, shift and space were both the afterburner keybind, so you had two bindings for one control that locked you out of going upwards with space while boosting. And the cherry on the cake was the horrendous inertia, which could only be halted by using an ability or bugging the boost function to kill your momentum; you couldn't even turn around and boost in another direction to brake, because you would keep the same speed when you turned around.

I would hesitate to even call it inertia, because that implies the flight model had some sort of physics to it. Which it did not. If they were trying to copy 6DOF flight sims, they got all the big words like "pitch" and "intertia", but they left out the details behind those words that made them into actual flight systems.

3 minutes ago, SpringRocker said:

at this point the controls are for people that want a taxi, not an archwing.

I believe it's the opposite. It was just a glorified taxi before, because the controls were so pointlessly bad. Exaggerated drift was not good. Directional drift was not good. Camera rolling that had no impact on flight at all was not good. A complete lack of any flight physics was not good.

The closer we get to something resembling an actual flight system, the better. Nobody wanted the controls "dumbed down", and they haven't been, because they were never complicated to begin with. They were just bad.

Edited November 23, 2019 by AdunSaveMe

[SpringRocker]

4 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

I believe it's the opposite. It was just a glorified taxi before, because the controls were so pointlessly bad. Exaggerated drift was not good. Directional drift was not good. Camera rolling that had no impact on flight at all was not good. A complete lack of any flight physics was not good.

The closer we get to something resembling an actual flight system, the better. Nobody wanted the controls "dumbed down", and they haven't been, because they were never complicated to begin with. They were just bad.

You're basically given super speed and running in the air with the new control scheme.

Imagine a target flying above you, it passes overhead, and you track then chase. Old control allow you to follow it, new controls require pivoting on 2 axis THEN make a 180 as it goes over.

This new system is not an "actual flight system", it's running around in the air.

[-STR-TheGresta]

İm kinda new in this game and the eidolon fight is realy fun.Trying to do 5x3  6x3 in 1 night so i used 4 forma to my itzal to travel faster.And it got nerfed today.Now its useless. Thanks.

[Butterfly85]

Truth be told I use Itzal more for it's third and 4th ability than anything else. Black hole means I don't miss most of the loot on aw runs and the drones the 4 launches literally have my back (my spatial awareness on those maps is terrible 🤣).

Sure, yeeting Grineer grunts into a different time zone is fun, but beyond that ...?