Blink nerf and railjack archwing gameplay.

[ixidron92]

hace 3 minutos, SenorClipClop dijo:

This is an example of confirmation bias. You have an opinion on something, and so you surround yourself with likeminded opinions and believe that one to be far more popular than any other. Of course there are going to be more people complaining about something that makes their character weaker, but you have no idea how many people are for or against the change.

The Devs are not beholden to announce every change in the game to us. We've known Blink was getting looked at for a long time, and a shrewd player would know that DE has been shying away from "instant success" features like press-4-to-win for some time. Blink wasn't winning missions, but it was trivializing traversal and I'm not surprised it's received a cooldown. This wasn't out of nowhere.

Also, we can give feedback and voice concerns, but we the players don't exactly have power in this situation. We say what we like and dislike, and the devs give that to us if they want to. It's not like we could've made an argument on the Forums so that they'd let us keep the trivializing nature of Blink intact. But if it makes you feel any better, feedback on a topic can encourage change, and DE isn't absolute or single-minded about the changes they make. I don't know if you watched the stream, but when Reb was demoing the new Blink she was arguing with Steve that the cooldown should be significantly shorter.

I'm beginning to think you didn't watch the stream. They didn't say "nerf" outright, but their language was very close. They weren't trying to hide the fact that new Blink isn't as fast as the old Blink. They know, and they know we know.

 

1- The same could be say for any position, so that argument would get us nowhere. Watch the stream, check the chat, form your own opinion. You might be wrong, you might be right. Visually, by the responses in the forums, reddit, in-game, steam community hub, and the twitch/mixer chat itself, I would say the general response is negative to the cooldown. Sure, that's not every single player ever, but a significant amount of responses can be considered a sample good and large enough to represent the majority with more or less accuracy. So, yeah, not so much as confirmation bias as basic knowledge of how statistics work.

2- No, they are not, but withholding information can be pretty stupid sometimes, which is exactly what I said. I never said Devs should publish every change weeks in advance or else. So, don't pretend otherwise.

They announced changes to blink, and they specifically said they wanted to give blink to all archwings and give Itzal ripline. Reaching the conclusion that they were gonna give a massive nerf to blink in the process is not being shrew, it's rampant speculation, even more so considering it contradicts their wording. Hence, judging by the information revealed, and the fact that they announced it one hour before it got in game, means it came out of nowhere.

"If they want to" Like I said, games are not about what Devs want, they are about what players want. Forget that premise and S#&$ goes south real quick. Also, like I said, Rebecca's reaction was unscripted and it showed, because there was a massive outburst in chat. That was an attempt at appeasement. Until we see the real results, I'm gonna keep this stuff going. This is simple: unhappy customers are not paying customers. The last few weeks there's been serious problems with the content we've got and it showed.

3- No, they didn't say nerf, and they didn't say anything close to nerf either. Their precise wording was change, which can mean pretty much anything, but when it's paired with "we're gonna give Itzal blink to all archwings" the thing you expect is, oh, I don't know, maybe the Itzal blink on all archwings? Definitely not a watered down version of Blink. 

Yeah, when PR people highlight things in bold, they are trying to hide something, that's a classic.

I can see you're smarter than the average forum dweller, or at least better at twisting words and debate. Not bad, sir. Very few people can make me pause and read their arguments carefully. 

[Snaccine]

On 2019-11-23 at 6:26 PM, Snaccine said:

I'm sure DE will come to there senses and fix what they did to blink. Either giving us more charges or significantly decreasing the cool down would be great. There's absolutely no reason to not implement either one of those options. I think Rebecca was even seeing how they absolutely gutted the ability on the devstream.

My problem isn't completely with blink though. It's the unbelievable decision to replace Itzal's 1, which was the best archwing ability, with something they KNOW is absolutely useless. Arch line is the poorest excuse for an archwing ability that I've ever seen. You're telling me that no one at DE couldn't think of ANYTHING BETTER? HOW? I dislike nothing more than having an ability I'm never going to use. Clearly I can just use a different archwing, but that's not the point. It just blows me away that DE is fine with this. Taking away an extremely useful ability on one archwing and giving it to all of the archwings is great. Nerfing that ability and making it awful because it was so useful is 100% unnecessary and distasteful. Then replacing the slot on the original archwing with something completely awful is just salt in the wound.

Tis the season for distasteful changes at DE though. Seems like they pull stuff like this at the end of every year.

 

This is my post and thoughts about all this from Saturday. Figured it’d be better in here.

Here are some really good suggestions on what arch line should have been from that thread. It’s amazing how putting some thought into the ability that replaced blink could have mitigated the back lash they’re receiving.  

 

On 2019-11-25 at 8:55 AM, DarthIronclad said:

Tbh i would have replaced Itzal's 1 with something similar to Ash's teleport, with a bit of CC added to it...having enemies around the area you teleported to blinded...

 

On 2019-11-25 at 9:02 AM, Teridax68 said:

I personally think Blink actually kind of became redundant the moment it was made universal, and see no real use for it at the moment other than to fast-travel, which I'd consider more of a problem than a benefit. I'd say it would be safe to get rid of it at this point, but beyond that I fully agree that Itzal's replacement ability is awful: it's a clone of Ripline on an Archwing that can already pull crowds of enemies into itself, which makes the ability redundant at its sole unique purpose, in addition to just generally weak.

Personally, my replacement would be to make Itzal leave some sort of holographic duplicate that'd draw enemy fire, which could then be reactivated to have Itzal teleport to its location and detonate it for radial damage based on the hits it took. It'd work with the AW's deception theme, as well as synergize with his other abilities.

 

[SenorClipClop]

16 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

1- ....So, yeah, not so much as confirmation bias as basic knowledge of how statistics work.

Thing is, you said:

5 hours ago, ixidron92 said:

nearly unanimous

I don't know what you know about statistics, but I hope you know enough to realize that "unanimous" is a term you can't use without raw data, lest you sound like you're just making hyperbole for shock value. That, or it's confirmation bias.

18 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

No, they are not, but withholding information can be pretty stupid sometimes, which is exactly what I said. I never said Devs should publish every change weeks in advance or else. So, don't pretend otherwise.

I never accused you of that. The only thing the Devs would have to gain by releasing specifics before the update would be more threads of people bemoaning and gnashing their teeth before trying the change, more people giving feedback on a thing they haven't yet tried. These last several weeks DE has been showing off lots of new assets (art, animations etc) but not previewing too many changes (stat and ability changes). I think this because DE want to make serious refinements and improvements to their game, and they want to do that based on feedback borne of experience and not speculation based on knee-jerk reactions. There will always be the latter, but the more we have to do our own exploring, the more feedback is more genuine and the better shot the studio has of refining and improving the game.

24 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

"If they want to" Like I said, games are not about what Devs want, they are about what players want. Forget that premise and S#&$ goes south real quick.

It's their game. Of course the Devs want to provide an enjoyable experience to their players, and that is the obvious top priority. However, sometimes there are things players enjoy which get cut or changed because the Devs have a different vision for the game, and the power to change it is all theirs. Many of the changes in this regard have been to eliminate afk tactics, one-button wins and the easiest setups also being the most effective (see Greedy Pull, Bladestorm and others). A lot of players liked these elements and wanted them to remain, but DE decided these had to go.

A blunter example: I want all rare gem drops to drop ten times as often as they currently do, but DE isn't going to do that because even though it benefits players, it would make those "rare" drops no longer rare.

31 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

No, they didn't say nerf, and they didn't say anything close to nerf either. Their precise wording was change, which can mean pretty much anything, but when it's paired with "we're gonna give Itzal blink to all archwings" the thing you expect is, oh, I don't know, maybe the Itzal blink on all archwings? Definitely not a watered down version of Blink. 

You may have expected this, but I expected a toning down of Blink-mashing, as I've already mentioned. As for them not saying anything about it, see point 2.

33 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

Also, like I said, Rebecca's reaction was unscripted and it showed, because there was a massive outburst in chat. That was an attempt at appeasement.

You don't really think the Devs run off a script on the streams, do you? Not with all the weirdness they get up to.

And I'm really hoping you don't think Rebecca wasn't being genuine -- that would be baselessly cynical. The devs can and have disagreed on changes made to the game (earlier this year there was a back-and-forth about Peacemakers and an Arcane). Sometimes it's to back up players, other times it's just a difference in opinion on what's good for the game. Coming at a discussion with a perspective (and I'm not assuming this is your perspective) that it's somehow players against devs, is counterproductive to any meaningful discourse on game design, and it shows plainly that one isn't thinking objectively about the discussion, that they're just channeling their anger at a nerf into direct anger and mistrust of the developers. That's needlessly personal, it never helps and we don't need it here.

53 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

I can see you're smarter than the average forum dweller, or at least better at twisting words and debate. Not bad, sir. Very few people can make me pause and read their arguments carefully. 

Flattery gets you somewhere, but not far. Rain check on dinner, but open to a coffee date.  

[AnuKaneDai]

The hook is pretty fine. Just, well it's a hook not a catapult to throw grineer at sentients ship at light speed x)

[Tsunamie101]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb (PS4)chubbslawson:

I bet De knew that the changes sucked before they released it and did it anyway,because really judging by their actions they don’t care what we think 

They probably just have a hard to listening to a community that doesn't seem to know what it wants, while keeping things (relativly balanced).

The new Itzal 1 sucks, that's true, but they needed to replace it with something since blink was gonna go universal, no matter what.

[Althaline]

17 minutes ago, Tsunamie101 said:

The new Itzal 1 sucks, that's true, but they needed to replace it with something since blink was gonna go universal, no matter what.

They effectively didn't replace it, that's how useless Rip-line is. People don't use it playing Valkyr, why would they use it playing Itzal?

[Uthael]

My version of constructive feedback:

The movement speed you get while reeling in the hook should be the default Itzal speed.
Then, you could hold Sprint to go twice that speed.

1 could be a repulsive field with a duration. It would prevent you from colliding and would push away projectiles. Activating any other ability (including Blink) cancels it.

[Xxx-Shinobi-xxX]

8 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

Thing is, you said:

I don't know what you know about statistics, but I hope you know enough to realize that "unanimous" is a term you can't use without raw data, lest you sound like you're just making hyperbole for shock value. That, or it's confirmation bias.

I never accused you of that. The only thing the Devs would have to gain by releasing specifics before the update would be more threads of people bemoaning and gnashing their teeth before trying the change, more people giving feedback on a thing they haven't yet tried. These last several weeks DE has been showing off lots of new assets (art, animations etc) but not previewing too many changes (stat and ability changes). I think this because DE want to make serious refinements and improvements to their game, and they want to do that based on feedback borne of experience and not speculation based on knee-jerk reactions. There will always be the latter, but the more we have to do our own exploring, the more feedback is more genuine and the better shot the studio has of refining and improving the game.

It's their game. Of course the Devs want to provide an enjoyable experience to their players, and that is the obvious top priority. However, sometimes there are things players enjoy which get cut or changed because the Devs have a different vision for the game, and the power to change it is all theirs. Many of the changes in this regard have been to eliminate afk tactics, one-button wins and the easiest setups also being the most effective (see Greedy Pull, Bladestorm and others). A lot of players liked these elements and wanted them to remain, but DE decided these had to go.

A blunter example: I want all rare gem drops to drop ten times as often as they currently do, but DE isn't going to do that because even though it benefits players, it would make those "rare" drops no longer rare.

You may have expected this, but I expected a toning down of Blink-mashing, as I've already mentioned. As for them not saying anything about it, see point 2.

You don't really think the Devs run off a script on the streams, do you? Not with all the weirdness they get up to.

And I'm really hoping you don't think Rebecca wasn't being genuine -- that would be baselessly cynical. The devs can and have disagreed on changes made to the game (earlier this year there was a back-and-forth about Peacemakers and an Arcane). Sometimes it's to back up players, other times it's just a difference in opinion on what's good for the game. Coming at a discussion with a perspective (and I'm not assuming this is your perspective) that it's somehow players against devs, is counterproductive to any meaningful discourse on game design, and it shows plainly that one isn't thinking objectively about the discussion, that they're just channeling their anger at a nerf into direct anger and mistrust of the developers. That's needlessly personal, it never helps and we don't need it here.

Flattery gets you somewhere, but not far. Rain check on dinner, but open to a coffee date.  

I'm going to skip replying to 95% of this and break it down to the basics, because I don't like the political mouth garbage I see here (if it smells like poop, looks like poop, tastes like poop,, DONT CALL it anything else but POOP.
i.E.

Mean what you say and say what you mean. When you start pandering "toned down" interpretations, you only draw the ire of those of us who extremely dislike the double talk.. which is what it is, period.
Omission of information is just lying (if you don't tell the whole truth, then you didn't tell the truth at all.), Pretty basic concept, in all honesty.
Didn't say the word "nerf", however utilizing carefully placed words that would lead a monkey to come to same conclusion that, it was a NERF (speaking of the Catchmoon here as reference), that is just spewing mouth garbage all the same. You can try to white wash, dilute it, or what ever floats your boat, the rest of us pretty much ignore that and see it for what it was. NO gray area there bud.

[(PSN)Aneres_Omega]

On 2019-11-25 at 3:13 PM, Skaleek said:

Okay guys. I've read all 14 pages of this thread. Not one person asked the most pertinent question:

Will this change make you use K-Drive?

Because that's why they did it. And i have a strong suspicion i know the answer.

I remember hearing that too, I can't help but feel this was more revenge over people not liking the stupid  hoverboard gimmick.

Too be honest I think they should have ether kept blink as is on Itzal while giving other AWs the watered down version of blink, but if they felt the need to replace it then why not with a speed boost skill kinda like Volt's speed boost.

Itzal is after all is more fragile thus speed was it's armor thus blink was like it's armor.

However with the loss of its blink it lost a large defensive ability for a weak version and a zipline to replay it?

The Zipline doesn't fit the itzal, a speed booster would fit it better.

[xenoffense]

Someone at DE: Hmmm what new ability to give Itzal... hmmm, Oh I know lets give it Valkyr's most useless ability. It will be way better now that it's on an archwing!!

Fire this person please

[(PSN)Aneres_Omega]

1 minute ago, xenoffense said:

Someone at DE: Hmmm what new ability to give Itzal... hmmm, Oh I know lets give it Valkyr's most useless ability. It will be way better now that it's on an archwing!!

Fire this person please

Lol, I can easily see this being a thing.

[Twisted_Wisdom]

Would rather have old Itzal back.
Its great that other archwings can now all blink, so its like they have 5 skills (with blink included),
but would be happy to just have (old) Itzal with just its 4 skills the way it used to be instead.

[AnuKaneDai]

I'm pretty fine with itzal, wich is already the fastest archwing, making the archwing faster gonna be a pain in archwing mission.

And I dont want back the wheelchair for lazy tenno to run accross the open world.

But the hook is a bit too powerfull to grab ennemy, and throw them into hyperspace isnt the goal.

And I jus thope that the devs gonna solve that 🙂
 

[Uthael]

19 minutes ago, AnuKaneDai said:

And I dont want back the wheelchair for lazy tenno to run accross the open world.

Hey! *I* do want that! And it has nothing to do with being lazy! It's called being free! Once a mission is done, flying around with barely controllable speeds is FREEDOM! I don't mind waiting for that MR4 player running and jumping to the exit. Let me play during that time! And give me back loop-de-loops and barrel rolls!

_{There are paralyzed people doing wheelies and climbing stairs in their wheelchairs. Imagine a law coming out that requires all wheels on the ground for pedestrian safety. You can't take that fun away, it's not worth it. You DON'T take that fun away. ... It's people having fun. Nobody likes the partybreaker.}

 

 

[AnuKaneDai]

For that you dont need the old Itzal one, But an archwing controle update, that must come with the full railjack update, if I recall right.

The thing is. People dont want fun, or they gonna enjoy the hook. People just want warframe to be reduce at a push-to-rush and push-to-win boutons.

And your argument are just not one. And I like to be the partybreaker when it's needed to have a better party after math.
 

[ciTiger]

7 hours ago, xenoffense said:

Someone at DE: Hmmm what new ability to give Itzal... hmmm, Oh I know lets give it Valkyr's most useless ability. It will be way better now that it's on an archwing!!

Fire this person please

Let's not go that way, and I agree it's useless.

Problem is not making mistakes it's not owning up to them and worse not fixing them!

Also, I doubt any one thing goes through only one person before getting to live... A whole team or more looked at it and approved.

[H.Katsura_999]

I daresay, the new ability feels like a giant band-aid to cover the gaping hole DE made after they ripped Blink off Itzal.

Why the frikkin hek do I need ripline on a stealth archwing? 

How is this a good ability to have on an already mobile wing?

In which scenario is this niche remotely useful?

IMHO a decoy ability to attract all the anti air missiles and aggro would have been a more superb alternative. 

[Staticor]

My only problems with the AW changes are the auto-lock for arch melee and experimental flight being taken away.   

[Gaxxian]

They just needed to add the Titania controls into the archwing. They were very similar, but with way less drag and without auto-forward movement when you pressed the sprint (so, a much better control).

But noooo, they made a terrible system from scratch. No 3D feeling, no drag, bland, boring and simple... the worst of the worst. And then, applied it into Titania and destroyed the frame too. Great.

About Blink, changes were totally unnecesary. Balance? What balance? With Empyrean everybody would have a lot of reasons to use different AW. So, why they destroyed itzal?

Edited November 27, 2019 by Gaxxian

[TheLexiConArtist]

Let me ask those of you who used blink extensively and want to complain about your 'losses':

How many of you got that energy organically, and how many were munching on pizzas?

I've dabbled in all Archwings. I even spite the anti-air abuse and get something useful out of them in open-worlds.

I also do not use energy restore pads unless as an absolute last resort.

Whenever I've been using the Itzal, sooner or later, that little bit of energy regen doesn't cut it. 'Later' in this case being a frame build using Arcane Energise, since that does carry over to any energy orb pickups while still 'winging it. At full pelt, you'd get between a couple places before coming up short, at best, since you're not even generating energy while out-of-wing in the open worlds. You're likely to be sitting invisible if you're staying in wing - no energy regenerating back there either.

 

Your Blink may have cost - assuming it was standard ability cost rules and with System Reroute in play - 11.25 energy per cast. But you don't start with your tank full, and you're blowing 11.25 energy maybe...5 times per second. Where else but pizzas do you get that sustain - and without it, how much have you really lost by going to the current Blink model, considering the 25% greater range (200% static new / 160% modded old), and that downtime being filled with your (presumably Hype Thrusters empowered) afterburners anyway?

Edited November 27, 2019 by TheLexiConArtist
made the grave calculation mistake of 0.25 energy, horrific(!)

[Snaccine]

2 hours ago, ciTiger said:

 

Also, I doubt any one thing goes through only one person before getting to live... A whole team or more looked at it and approved.

I’d honestly rather think that one person approved it. It’s nauseating to think about an entire team looking at it and thinking it’s good enough. If that’s the case we’re all doomed.

[Snaccine]

14 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Let me ask those of you who used blink extensively and want to complain about your 'losses':

How many of you got that energy organically, and how many were munching on pizzas?

I've dabbled in all Archwings. I even spite the anti-air abuse and get something useful out of them in open-worlds.

I also do not use energy restore pads unless as an absolute last resort.

Whenever I've been using the Itzal, sooner or later, that little bit of energy regen doesn't cut it. 'Later' in this case being a frame build using Arcane Energise, since that does carry over to any energy orb pickups while still 'winging it. At full pelt, you'd get between a couple places before coming up short, at best, since you're not even generating energy while out-of-wing in the open worlds. You're likely to be sitting invisible if you're staying in wing - no energy regenerating back there either.

 

Your Blink may have cost - assuming it was standard ability cost rules and with System Reroute in play - 11.25 energy per cast. But you don't start with your tank full, and you're blowing 11.25 energy maybe...5 times per second. Where else but pizzas do you get that sustain - and without it, how much have you really lost by going to the current Blink model, considering the 25% greater range (200% static new / 160% modded old), and that downtime being filled with your (presumably Hype Thrusters empowered) afterburners anyway?

No pizzas necessary. Just throw the ability range mod on (forgot what it’s called) and system reroute for the efficiency. The left over unused points count towards your starting energy pool. You’d have a little over 300 starting energy or so if I remember correctly. The pizzas are more for Eidolon hunting.

[ciTiger]

Eidolon hunting needed pizzas if you wanted to do several captures.

I wonder how those guys are doing since the itzal nerf...

[ciTiger]

35 minutes ago, Gaxxian said:

They just needed to add the Titania controls into the archwing. They were very similar, but with way less drag and without auto-forward movement when you pressed the sprint (so, a much better control).

But noooo, they made a terrible system from scratch. No 3D feeling, no drag, bland, boring and simple... the worst of the worst. And then, applied it into Titania and destroyed the frame too. Great.

About Blink, changes were totally unnecesary. Balance? What balance? With Empyrean everybody would have a lot of reasons to use different AW. So, why they destroyed itzal?

Because Itzal was fun and DE is against it, also the majority of the community probably used Itzal (I wonder why...) and we all know what DE does to fun.

[Teridax68]

On 2019-11-24 at 9:18 AM, Smilomaniac said:

Was the blink "spamming" a problem? No.

Yes, it absolutely was: putting aside how it made Itzal the only Archwing worth having in open levels, it also completely threw away the vastness of the Plains and Vallis by having the player skip pretty much instantly through all of the terrain, all of the enemy camps, all of the ground-level encounters, from one bounty objective to the next. Even with Blink nerfed, Archwing still does that by letting the player make a rapid beeline while flying over anything that could make travelling from point A to B more interesting. The current implementation may not be ideal (In particular, Itzal's compensatory 1 is a joke), but it's not like there was no problem at all.