Smilomaniac Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 2 minutes ago, Teridax68 said: Yes, which means it is also not a progress bar one just expects to dispense rewards with no application. If that's your style of game, Cookie Clicker may suit you better. Meanwhile, there is in fact such a thing as healthy and unhealthy design, even if the meaning of the terms may escape you, and it is worth pushing games to improve their design, even if it doesn't mean making them absolutely perfect (and what I'm suggesting here is by no means pie-in-the-sky idealistic, it's a couple of pretty simple suggestions). Uh, what? So... you just made this thread to trash-talk people who complained about Blink spam? How productive. It seems you're the one here with some sort of desperate desire to discuss politics, not me. As it stands, you are the one who chose to debate me: just to give a quick refresher on how debates work, either side makes points, which the other responds to with counterpoints and points of their own. You may ignore or dismiss these points as you wish, but will also get called out if your debating tactics are shallow or flimsy, as is the case here. You may not like my quote-by-quote responses, but I'd say it's still a lot better than you jumping on a fragment of what I've written, going on some unhinged rant about how you're choosing to dismiss this concept you clearly do not comprehend, and then trying to justify doing so in a manner that only further underlines the ineptitude of your arguments. If you want to give feedback about the game to improve it, by all means be my guest (though then don't absolve yourself of it when pressed), but if all you're planning on doing is picking fights with other users, this is not the space for you. This is not a debate, you added your opinion to my feedback thread, which makes it fair game. If it's irrelevant to the topic, which your opinion is, then I have no responsibility to entertain it beyond calling you out. If you wanted to expand your argument on what's "healthy", you would've already done so, but since you already conceded that it's a simple suggestion (or rather simplistic), it's more likely that you got defensive, salty and now just want to argue. Adding more travel time is not healthy. Trying to pretend that more mindless timewaste, such as travel time, is some sort of effort to get rewards is the stupidest thing you've said so far. I don't need to address every pedantic point you make because it's blatantly obvious that you have no ground to stand on. Call me unhinged all you want, the simple fact is that you had your legs swept out from under you, which is funny since you never had any ground to stand on in the first place. Prove me wrong, tell me all about your argument and how you're promoting healthy gameplay when talking about increasing travel time. I'm sure it's fascinating and not a waste of time at all. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitro747 Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 10 hours ago, Xzorn said: Ripline lets Itzal move while remaining invisible much as Blink allows. You can combine to two for high forward momentum while remaining invisible. Worse than spamming Blink? Sure but far from useless. I foresee DE making Blink break Invisibility in the future anyways so Ripline will be it's only method if that becomes the case. ... except when there isn't anything in range to be grabbed by the ripline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smilomaniac Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 1 minute ago, DrakeWurrum said: Pretty sure they did what they did because they disagree with you on this point. The old Blink was essentially an instant "teleport to where you wanna go" button, and they don't want that. Obviously. Which is why DE is the problem, not the ability. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrakeWurrum Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Smilomaniac said: Obviously. Which is why DE is the problem, not the ability. The distinction here is that you view it as a problem. That's a subjective opinion that I, also, disagree with. Edited November 29, 2019 by DrakeWurrum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smilomaniac Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 1 minute ago, DrakeWurrum said: The distinction here is that you view it as a problem. That's a subjective opinion that I, also, disagree with. Fair enough. Your opinion about my opinion has been noted and dismissed. Good talk. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrakeWurrum Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Smilomaniac said: Fair enough. Your opinion about my opinion has been noted and dismissed. Good talk. You want a button that can bypass travel from point A to point B. In other words, you don't want the open world to BE an open world, you just want to get straight to the action with no travel time. DE doesn't want that and, frankly, neither do I. Neither do a lot of players, from the looks of it. There's also a lot of players that are with you on this, I'm sure. And I think that's the problem here. DE put in an open world area to make the game universe feel more... there? More like a real universe, maybe. You're clearly one of those players that simply does not enjoy open world content. To be fair, Warframe has often just been a thing where you start a mission and, boom, you're in it. And it's always encouraged speedrunning them to the maximum capabilities. So I can see why the disconnect is there. But that doesn't mean that Blink was a problem, or that DE is a problem. You're the problem. The problem being that you don't like open world travel. Edited November 29, 2019 by DrakeWurrum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smilomaniac Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 21 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said: You want a button that can bypass travel from point A to point B. In other words, you don't want the open world to BE an open world, you just want to get straight to the action with no travel time. DE doesn't want that and, frankly, neither do I. Neither do a lot of players, from the looks of it. There's also a lot of players that are with you on this, I'm sure. And I think that's the problem here. DE put in an open world area to make the game universe feel more... there? More like a real universe, maybe. You're clearly one of those players that simply does not enjoy open world content. To be fair, Warframe has often just been a thing where you start a mission and, boom, you're in it. And it's always encouraged speedrunning them to the maximum capabilities. So I can see why the disconnect is there. But that doesn't mean that Blink was a problem, or that DE is a problem. You're the problem. The problem being that you don't like open world travel. I want the option to bypass travel, sure. Not for any mission, but for open world specifically. We had that option, it has now been reduced to a mess that even goes so far as to punish you for pressing roll before the energy meter is filled out, delaying the blink even further. This is not a solution, it's a compromise no one wanted. Taking the opposite stance is inherently a bad argument, as you can take it as slow as you want to. By all means enjoy the scenery, I did for about as long as it took to do the things I wanted to and now I'm done with both places. Except Nightwave keeps pestering people into doing bounties, or fish or get minerals. This is an inherent flaw in Nightwave, hiding umbral mods and exclusive cosmetic at the end of trash content, but until they resolve that people have to use archwings to get around. I don't like being forced to do anything and we have a solution to that already: Syndicate factions. You slap on a sticker, you go do what YOU want to do and you get the rewards. Presto, I don't need to do the worst content in the game, but I can do exactly what I think is fun. People spamming blink to get around is not a problem. You build the archwing, you build the energy pizzas, you spam them as much or as little as you want, meaning you pay to get around very quickly. This is the opposite of a problem, it's earning a solution to what IS a problem, which is prolongued travel time to do the same that you'd do in a mission anywhere else. Besides that, you're right. I'm not a fan of open world content, but mostly because it's forced on you with some of the most valuable things hidden behind a time and reputation gate. It's safe to say that too much of anything gets tedious and being sick of the orb vallis and beyond sick of the plains is not unfair. As for why DE did what they did, any idiot can understand why, but that doesn't make it a necessary or even a good change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skaleek Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 (edited) I have been able to be effective with every movement system DE has thrown at us. The only reason no one plays Archwing is because the rewards suck. YOU HEAR ME DE? MAKE AW REWARDS WORTHWHILE!!! Kuva in AW, Fissures in AW, forma BP's in AW (fully built forma even? I guarantee everyone will play AW if you add fully built forma, just sayin). Right now the only reason to play AW is to get the razorback CLU things and to farm lith relics from rush. As per usual, I'm howling at the moon: Everyone complains about the movement of Archwing no matter what state its in. Its the only constant in AW. Edited November 29, 2019 by Skaleek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thethunderviper Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 Ayo ! Wanted to share my though about archwing rework and itzal first ability : First of all , the new warp system with the dash IS NICE right now . YES , the cooldown for the warp is slow , but it open door for new mod about it : warp cooldown , distance/warp , etc . And im fine with that . Second , Heh , the first ability of itzal : the rope . Was a great idea , but badly executed . As shown in the devstream , i though it was a sort of slingshoot stuff allowing us to travel as the same distance as the old one ability , just in a different way. BUT : the duration of the rope is too much and i feel like it make the ability to slingshoot hard to do and ugly to watch , it feels too harsh , and need to be way smoother. I think that lowering the duration can maybe make it smoother i think , plus adding a little drift to it , not just shooting the rope at a point and not being able to go somewhere else without choice because of its 'harshness' (yeah , idk if its possible to say that) . Just make it more simple and more open to slingshoot and it will be good for me , and i think it will resolve the drama about Itzal being nerfed , blablabla . My english writing is kinda meh but i hope you will understand what i tried to say about Itzal and the new warp system . Have a nice day ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snaccine Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, DrakeWurrum said: You want a button that can bypass travel from point A to point B. In other words, you don't want the open world to BE an open world, you just want to get straight to the action with no travel time. DE doesn't want that and, frankly, neither do I. Neither do a lot of players, from the looks of it. There's also a lot of players that are with you on this, I'm sure. And I think that's the problem here. DE put in an open world area to make the game universe feel more... there? More like a real universe, maybe. You're clearly one of those players that simply does not enjoy open world content. To be fair, Warframe has often just been a thing where you start a mission and, boom, you're in it. And it's always encouraged speedrunning them to the maximum capabilities. So I can see why the disconnect is there. But that doesn't mean that Blink was a problem, or that DE is a problem. You're the problem. The problem being that you don't like open world travel. No one has seemed to mention that we had blink in open world content for 2 years and DE did nothing to it. You all are clinging to open world traversal like it’s a real argument for what they did. They boo bopped blink for Empyrean. DE loves making the rest of the game fit the mold for their new shiny toy. Edited November 29, 2019 by Snaccine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnuKaneDai Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 Yup, and said by someone, the new blink system allow everyone even new people without the right archwing/modding to dont stay backward when people just spam blink. And a better strength for the hook so ennemy dont fly away to other sky and far away could be nice The change is nice overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isokaze_BestKaze Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 18 minutes ago, Snaccine said: No one has seemed to mention that we had blink in open world content for 2 years and DE did nothing to it. You all are clinging to open world traversal like it’s a real argument for what they did. They boo bopped blink for Empyrean. DE loves making the rest of the game fit the mold for their new shiny toy. Just because it had been broken for several years doesn't mean they don't have to fix it. Same as Maiming strike or Vauban. That's not an argument tbh. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snaccine Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 9 minutes ago, Isokaze_BestKaze said: Just because it had been broken for several years doesn't mean they don't have to fix it. Same as Maiming strike or Vauban. That's not an argument tbh. You’re right. It’s not an argument. Because I’m not arguing. DE nerfed blink for new content. Fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrakeWurrum Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 (edited) 50 minutes ago, Snaccine said: No one has seemed to mention that we had blink in open world content for 2 years and DE did nothing to it. That's not an argument for keeping it. It was a problem. We knew for 2 years that it was a problem. Yes, they took too long to get to it. That doesn't negate it being a problem. 9 minutes ago, Snaccine said: DE nerfed blink for new content. Fact. And it needed to be nerfed. Fact. You're specifically choosing to call it a nerf because you want to use that to express how much you hate this change and describe it in a way that is negative, but the fact is, it needed to be nerfed. 1 hour ago, Smilomaniac said: People spamming blink to get around is not a problem. And you're wrong. It was a problem. Being able to manually choose to go slower is not a choice, the same way that being able to manually remove all your mods and do a mission without them is not the answer to power creep. Edited November 29, 2019 by DrakeWurrum 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snaccine Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 2 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said: That's not an argument for keeping it. It was a problem. We knew for 2 years that it was a problem. Yes, they took too long to get to it. That doesn't negate it being a problem. And it's not a bad thing. Fact. Did I say it wasn’t a problem? No. Did I say it wasn’t a bad thing? No. Am I saying DE wouldn’t have touched it if not for Empyrean? Yes. Stop making enemies and read. Thanks dorks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrakeWurrum Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 54 minutes ago, Thethunderviper said: YES , the cooldown for the warp is slow , but it open door for new mod about it : warp cooldown , distance/warp , etc . And im fine with that . Nah, they can't do that. It'll be treated as a required mod by everybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snaccine Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 12 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said: You're specifically choosing to call it a nerf because you want to use that to express how much you hate this change and describe it in a way that is negative, but the fact is, it needed to be nerfed. Um, hello? I’m calling it a nerf because that’s what it is lmfao. You are trying so hard to make something out of nothing and it’s hilarious. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smilomaniac Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 9 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said: Being able to manually choose to go slower is not a choice, the same way that being able to manually remove all your mods and do a mission without them is not the answer to power creep. You have yet to convince anyone that it was a problem. Scotts argument was that it pidgeonholed people into only using the Itzal. Since it's still the fastest option, the "problem" hasn't been solved. Open world is not an archwing area, in fact you're discouraged from using it due to getting knocked out of it in combat, meaning there's no point in using any archwing for anything else than travel. Your comparison is bad, just because powercreep exists doesn't mean you have to use "meta" loadouts. If you randomize your loadout and use things that at least have cata/reactor installed, you will often be fine provided you've at least modded for the enemy type. Being able to not use the best is absolutely a choice, anything else is one hell of a bad excuse. Play how you want, don't drag the rest of us down with you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reifnir Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 2 hours ago, DrakeWurrum said: In other words, you don't want the open world to BE an open world That's the problem, right there. PoE and Valis are NOT open worlds. They are empty, DEAD locations no one outside of your 4-man group can enter, devoid of any meaningful content outside of Bounties and maybe Toroid farming. All that space we're skipping over? It's just pretty scenery. Might as well have been a loading screen going from Camp A to Cave B. There's nothing worthwhile to explore. Nothing exciting to find. Forget open worlds, it's not even a world. There are no public events because there IS no "public" there. Blaming people for wanting to skip walking across 2 kilometers of glorified NOTHING makes about as much sense as blaming them for installing the game on SSD to make loading screens faster. Walking in Valis/PoE is not meaningful content and Warframe is no Death Stranding. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoomFruit Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 1 hour ago, DrakeWurrum said: Being able to manually choose to go slower is not a choice, the same way that being able to manually remove all your mods and do a mission without them is not the answer to power creep. It's funny you should say that, looking at how the most recent warframe is acquired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grander.Alderman Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 Trying out the new universal blink given to all the archwings I quickly realized why I hate it so much. It's not because Itzal is now at the bottom of the list, since it's most useful ability was taken away, butchered and passed around to the others. It's not because this inevitably will lead to overuse of whichever archwing becomes the next one-and-only pick for a different ability. Those are all minor complaints in comparison to how universal blink ruins *flying forward*. I remember back in the days when coptering was a big problem because players, instead of sprinting and using the fluid running and parkour motions to move around would just spam melee spin all the time to launch themselves forward and overtake the other players, now it's the same in archwing, where instead of flying forward and using the archwing's speed and maneuverability it's devolved into a "mash shift every three seconds" contest to launch yourself forward and stay in front of everybody. DE seriously needs to rethink the universal blink because, from what i see, it's better to just either revert it to how it was, an ability that's limited to energy and isn't constantly spammable for an entire mission, or to remove it entirely. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoomFruit Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 8 hours ago, (PS4)Aneres_Omega said: I still believe that they did this because people perfer AW over the hoverboard wich is slow and very limited. Yep. And even Elytron is faster than those pointless skateboards. It's pretty funny, really. I forget who said it, but one of the livestreams had them saying "Itzal gets used too much, we'll 'fix' it by nerfing blink". Whoever that was, they never even tried to think about why Itzal even gets used so much in the first place. It's still the fastest Archwing due to its base sprint speed. Because of the rampant SAM spam in open-world missions, archwings aren't really usable for combat. Itzal has the best utility options as well - cloak is useful, and vacuum is almost vital for getting the loot from eidolon hunts (profit taker as well). There are a whole bunch of annoying, intrusive mechanics in the game. Instead of fixing them, the devs go straight for "let's force the players to encounter them more". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iLightning13 Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 I'd be fine with all the changes if Arch-Line wasn't the jankiest damn thing that's ever existed. It makes me feel like one of Vauban's sticky ripline victims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notlamprey Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 If it really is like you say, this sounds like a textbook case of knee-jerk changes that weren't properly playtested and completely fail to accomplish their stated purpose. That happens a lot with this game. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yasha-7HS Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 (edited) Not even a relatively close comparison, and it misses the point of the change in general. Itzal was, quite literally, the Zorencopter. Completely removing all gameplay relevant benefit and usefulness from all other archwings because it was faster. Giving a lesser version of that speed to everyone else is Parkour 2.0. Sure, everyone will find the next best thing but clearly it's Warframe community's prerogative to only play the "most" effective, or fastest way to win. At the very least, the difference now is that it's not just one archwing that's going past everyone by an entire map size, it's everyone being relatively neck to neck. Edited November 29, 2019 by ShichiseitenYasha Bing bing wahoo'd, I guess. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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