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ixidron92

Blink nerf and railjack archwing gameplay.

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27 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

It seems the cooldown is here to stay, seeing as how a simple, single digit numeric change hasn't happened in 10 days already.

Hey, don't say "here to stay"! Some "simple number changes" happened only years after they should!

You have every right to make this into a "long-wanted change, often talked about".

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I'd welcome the idea of objectives being arranged in a way that a player on a K-Drive can still catch up with a player in an Archwing.
I'd still like a way to move super-fast through large maps, though... Regardless of how mission objectives are placed. It's fun!

It also makes up for the boring parts. For example, if a Mesa in a Frost Globe defends the objective, I'd like to goof around. Maybe even go fishing/mining and instantly come back when the timer is near 0.

You might suggest to "play Nova or Gauss", but that's also a restriction. Restrictions take the fun away. If I'm in the mood for pummeling some enemies with an Atlas, I wouldn't want to go Gauss just because I might get matched with a Saryn.

My favorite Archwing is Odonata. But Itzal's Blink spam allowed me to fill some voids in fun left by the game design. And that's gone now.

 

P.S.: Just to be clear, I don't care anymore about efficiency in Eidolon hunts. Or any other grind, for that matter. I hadn't cared for loot in a long while. I have my favorite frames for every situation and I've made them pretty according to my sense of aesthetics. I like to think that I'm helping the game by selling loot and being a drain for plat.

I play Warframe for fun. Blink spam was fun. I'd like that back.

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On 2019-12-03 at 2:22 PM, Uthael said:

I'd welcome the idea of objectives being arranged in a way that a player on a K-Drive can still catch up with a player in an Archwing.
I'd still like a way to move super-fast through large maps, though... Regardless of how mission objectives are placed. It's fun!

Oh, I completely agree with moving super-fast through maps as well; I think there's a thrill to moving at incredible speeds that Gauss capitalizes upon as well. At the moment, though, I think there's this double whammy of problems with our vehicles:

  • K-Drives are fairly slow, and their control scheme is far too oriented towards performing tricks than towards navigating uneven terrain at high speeds, which makes them currently unsuitable as a mode of fast travel.
  • Archwings are our fastest vehicle, but also our most boring, as there's nothing interesting going on when we make a beeline from A to B far above any danger.

So effectively, I think K-Drives would be better-suited as our main mode of fast-travel... if they received proper changes to work as an actual vehicle, rather than a watered-down Tony Hawk minigame. In fact, I'd probably even want them to go even faster than current Archwing in Boost mode, provided they had the appropriate control scheme to let them do that without bumping constantly into scenery (which should likely involve removing wipes and making the jump button properly reactive, rather than pre-emptive).

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It also makes up for the boring parts. For example, if a Mesa in a Frost Globe defends the objective, I'd like to goof around. Maybe even go fishing/mining and instantly come back when the timer is near 0.

You might suggest to "play Nova or Gauss", but that's also a restriction. Restrictions take the fun away. If I'm in the mood for pummeling some enemies with an Atlas, I wouldn't want to go Gauss just because I might get matched with a Saryn.

I don't quite agree that restrictions take fun away as a general rule, but being restricted to a limited selection of frames I completely agree is never a great idea, and isn't something I'd want to encourage. I think it'd be cool for some frames to compete with our vehicles in terms of traversal speed (flying around as Zephyr is also legitimately engaging, unlike Archwing flight over long distances), but the very existence of vehicles should prevent those frames from being mandatory in large maps.

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My favorite Archwing is Odonata. But Itzal's Blink spam allowed me to fill some voids in fun left by the game design. And that's gone now.

Indeed, and I think the problem now is that removing Itzal's Blink didn't shift the meta all that much: Itzal still has the fastest boost speed, and because traversal is literally the only thing valued on Archwing in the Plains and Vallis, due to how we get almost immediately dismounted when we attempt combat from the air, it still beats even the Amesha, arguably the most overpowered AW for combat by a mile. There are a whole lot more problems with Archwing in those maps beyond Blink, and while changing it may have removed one abuse case, it's left us all in this awkward situation where traversal feels just as boring, yet slower, AW diversity still doesn't feel amazing, and Archwing overall feels kind of neutered, because the vehicle's worse at travel, but also still not allowed to engage in combat. We need a few more changes after this for vehicles and fast travel in large levels to feel like they're in a good place.

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P.S.: Just to be clear, I don't care anymore about efficiency in Eidolon hunts. Or any other grind, for that matter. I hadn't cared for loot in a long while. I have my favorite frames for every situation and I've made them pretty according to my sense of aesthetics. I like to think that I'm helping the game by selling loot and being a drain for plat.

I play Warframe for fun. Blink spam was fun. I'd like that back.

Out of genuine curiosity: what was it specifically about Blink spam that you enjoyed? I may not necessarily agree, but I think that if there's an element of genuinely fun gameplay that was lost in the changes, and there's some way of getting that back in a way that doesn't carry too much of a negative impact, that's something worth aiming towards. If there's one thing I liked about it, it's that it let me spend a little more time fighting Thumpers before immediately returning to a mission objective if someone had started it already, but at that point it's also worth noting that bounties on the Plains and Vallis could use an update, as they're quite restrictive in how they force players to congregate in one tiny area each time, rather than explore freely and still be able to contribute over long distances as was initially suggested. I'd very much like players being able to do their own thing and still help during bounty objectives, if only so that it eliminates the notion of leeching in bounties, which is something not even Blink spam was able to solve, but which deeper changes to bounty missions might.

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2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Out of genuine curiosity: what was it specifically about Blink spam that you enjoyed?

I'm not who you were replying to, but I did find the ability to spam Blink both useful and fun. Not only was it good for travel, but the shorter distance and lack of cooldown meant that you could blink just behind a tough enemy and shoot it in the back. Not only did that feel stylish as #*!%, but it was also extremely useful for shield dargyns which are completely invincible from the front and damage you if you try to melee them.

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On 2019-12-03 at 5:47 PM, DoomFruit said:

I'm not who you were replying to, but I did find the ability to spam Blink both useful and fun. Not only was it good for travel, but the shorter distance and lack of cooldown meant that you could blink just behind a tough enemy and shoot it in the back. Not only did that feel stylish as #*!%, but it was also extremely useful for shield dargyns which are completely invincible from the front and damage you if you try to melee them.

See, this is something I can absolutely get behind, pun semi-intended: I think it'd be great to have some more interesting dogfighting in Warframe, and in this context it would absolutely make sense to have abilities that would let oneself quickly reposition behind enemies chasing us to shoot them down instead. Enemies like Shield Dargyns lend themselves particularly well to this, and in this respect I can agree that the current implementation of Blink, with its cooldown and ultimately fairly clunky gameplay of its own, doesn't really fit the bill for that anymore. With that in mind, though, I'd say it's worth exploring abilities that would achieve that directly, without falling into the same problems as the old Blink: every Archwing has ample room for this, in my opinion, because currently each kit has a degree of redundancy, plus abilities designed solely for evading projectiles, a gimmick that I don't think ever really took off. Alternatively, rather than our current Blink, it might also be worth refining our Archwing maneuvers so that we can reposition around enemies a lot better, as a side effect of the new control scheme is that it's generally more difficult to perform any sort of air maneuver at all.

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On 2019-11-22 at 5:09 PM, LSG501 said:

Actually the probable reason for the cooldown is so we can't just blink everywhere in railjack missions, which I can kind of understand, but still doesn't stop it feeling like a nerf. 

If that was the case, they could just add some random lame excuse for a blink CD in railjack only, like they did with gear in ESO.

Example: CY: this ship has a massive energy field, its interfering with your systems, Tenno. Ur blink ability has been temporarily disabled.

 

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Seems there are other ways to nerf this such as removing 25% of all armor for 3 seconds after each blink so after 4+ blinks you are stripped all armor for 12+ seconds (5 would be 15 seconds).  Combine that with a double energy cost, your range is halved. 

For railjack, you certainly will not be jumping into an enemy ship with no armor.  Waiting for it to regenerate would defeat purpose of blinking all together.  However, there may be instances and circumstances the risk worth it.  

I used blink primarily for all the dang riven unlocks on plains.  They are the most common riven challenges and I want to do them as fast as possible.  I don't do bounties anymore, not even for nightwave, and I've bought all arcanes I want.  It's a convenience feature I'd like back. 

If blink was nerfed for railjack, my suggestion above would do just that.  Duration could be adjusted and other penalties could apply (such as magnetic proc or dragon key effects) the longer the blink.  

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6 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Out of genuine curiosity: what was it specifically about Blink spam that you enjoyed?

For me, it was the speed and the control.
If you told me that standing still accumulated blink stacks, I'd be standing there for a minute just to be able to zoom around wildly after that. The total distance covered could be the same for all I care.

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1 hour ago, kuryux said:

If that was the case, they could just add some random lame excuse for a blink CD in railjack only, like they did with gear in ESO.

Example: CY: this ship has a massive energy field, its interfering with your systems, Tenno. Ur blink ability has been temporarily disabled.

 

Yeah but this is DE.... they only seem to know OP or nerfed, it's very rare we end up with balanced rework straight out of the box, at least when they start changing things.

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To be honest, the only reason for me to go for the Itzal was the blink ability, to get around fast in the plains and the valley.

But now that all archwings have it for a fair price I gave the winged godmode a try, aka Amesha. Try to shoot me down now game! Or anyone near me. Or the objective. And while you're at it: Fill my energy back up!

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On 2019-12-03 at 9:29 PM, Uthael said:

For me, it was the speed and the control.
If you told me that standing still accumulated blink stacks, I'd be standing there for a minute just to be able to zoom around wildly after that. The total distance covered could be the same for all I care.

Being able to accumulate charges from some other sort of activity doesn't sound like too bad an ability, as the reduction of interaction with terrain could be compensated for by whichever mechanic generated those Blink stacks. Standing still may perhaps not be how to generate those, but if it were something like killing enemies, dodging shots, or doing some other engaging activity in Archwing, that would justify that sort of traversal better, and likely even balance out that extreme mobility with a need to hang around a little more.

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I say keep the cooldown free blink, but let us use it repeatedly for energy (so if you press Roll once per second, every 3rd blink is free but the others cost)

And replace Ripline with anything. Basically anything would be better. If it's going to be a clone of any ability, make it Volt Speed. That way, Itzal gets to remain as a fast, squishy alternative, the other AWs keep blink so they aren't useless, and we don't get spat in the face with a duplicate of the most useless ability in the game.

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48 minutes ago, Xarteros said:

And replace Ripline with anything. Basically anything would be better. If it's going to be a clone of any ability, make it Volt Speed. That way, Itzal gets to remain as a fast, squishy alternative, the other AWs keep blink so they aren't useless, and we don't get spat in the face with a duplicate of the most useless ability in the game.

This this this. It still blows me away that they copy pasted ripline onto Itzal. 

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I don't understand why they gave us Ripline for Itzal. It just doesn't really work well (kind of like Ripline). It would have been better if we got like Slash Dash or Tail Wind or something else.

As for Universal Blink, not a big fan of how it works currently. To get it to work smoothly you need to have a dedicated roll button. What's funny is they seem to remove the double thrusters (hold shift and space), so why not have made it so blink works by pressing space when holding using thrusters? Would have made it much smoother.

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On 2019-11-29 at 5:33 AM, Reifnir said:

Everyone used Itzal for TWO things - PoE Tridolon hunts and traveling in Orb Valis. Nobody used Itzal exclusively in normal Archwing missions. We have Amesha for that. Likewise, almost nobody used Archwing in PoE/Valis for anything other than traveling, DE took care of that by giving every enemy surface-to-air missiles that made sure you wouldn't like the experience. 

And breaking something just because it was actually good at its job is typical DE nerfbat style - nerfing something only because everything else is significantly worse. 

Precisely that! With every decision to nuke something into the ground just because it is "too popular" the question grows stronger, why bother?. Why spend the time and the resources to perfect a build if you know that DE is just going to take a crap on it at some point? This, more than any other thing is the reason I refuse to create any of the new nemeses. Yeah, I would like to get the new weapons, but if that is my only motivator, I pass. 

DE, if you want people to use an item or a set of items, make those items fun to play. When my son wad a toddler, I dis not break his favorite toy to get him to play with another. 😉🙂

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On 2019-11-22 at 1:30 PM, vomder said:

The war on efficiency continues as does disrespecting players times.

It's a necessary evil.

Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of the game.

People can cry about nerfs and their time spent all they want, but if DE gave you everything in as little time as possible, there'd be nothing left for you to do and so you'd quit. Players who quit are players who don't put money into the game, and no company survives on happy thoughts and good vibes.

Edited by Pizzarugi
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I've read that thing. I recommend reading it to anyone working on any game here (not just DE). What stood out for me are the following quotes:

""" Does the exploit drown out all other play styles, or is it a fun, alternative way to play? Does the degenerate strategy create an endless grind, or is it a quick shortcut for players who need a little help? "

1) Itzal's Blink does kill all other AWs, that's true. But so do instant-dismount missiles fired by enemies with infinite reflexes and perfect spotting ability. And every group of enemies seems to have those.
2) It WAS a fun, alternative way to play.
3) The strategy caused no gring whatsoever. If it's about Eidolon hunts, the grind got even worse post-nerf.
4) Yes, it was a quick shortcut for players who wanted to skip some idle time and get to the quest marker. Nobody missed anything if they didn't take the trip on foot or on K-drive.

 

""" The famous, endless free lives trick from Super Mario Bros. – in which the player bounced a turtle shell repeatedly against a block staircase for long strings of 1UP’s – was actually not a bug but a feature the team included on purpose.
In exchange for mastering a small dexterity challenge, players can quickly mine all the free lives they need to progress in the game. Discovering and abusing a hole in a game’s design can be a fun experience – giving the player a unique sense of mastery – as long as the exploit doesn’t ruin the game for the player (or the player’s opponents). "

It harmed noone. Few things in Warframe do. But zooming around was fun to do.

 

""" If possible, designers should provide the ability to turn an exploit on or off, giving the players control over their worst instincts. "

That's what we got in ESO with Simaris. Also, multiple suggestions around the Forums popped up about how to reimplement the blink-spam back in a limiting way.

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Damn, archwing is boring af now. No more roll, speed has also been nerfed, it seems. Just a bad change, overall.

Oh, and Titania razorwing is also S#&$ now, too.

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I am not a fan of this nerf, I put work into my iztal to make it fast, so I can use in the plains and valis. I don’t use the acrhwing for anything else.

On 2019-11-22 at 2:02 PM, ixidron92 said:

FFS people used blink to quickly traverse from place to place.

You put in on all archwings that gives you a +1. People were actually excited for that feature. Of course, everyone thought you'd be giving the real ability to all Archwing. You know: 0 cooldown, affected by mods, with energy cost.

Then, you give it a 3 second cooldown and try to portray it as something good by highlighting in bold that it's range has doubled and costs no energy, when it truth it's a massive nerf because it now takes way more time to cover the same distance, that would be a -10.

Why nerf blink?! It's an ability to move from place to place. It's a traverse ability with no effect whatsoever in combat. It's like suddenly giving double jump a cooldown.

It took a single blink in the devstream, even before Rebecca had time to explain, and the chat had already erupted with fury. Literally no one was expecting this, and literally everyone opposed it, to the point Rebecca had to nervously beg Steve for a CD reduction to avoid a freaking riot.

Give it to DE to think of something amazing and then implement it the worst possible way. It's becoming a meme at this point. Showcase something great only to delivery the exact opposite of what people were expecting.

So, this is our feedback to DE. We say NO to Blink CD

 

On 2019-11-22 at 2:03 PM, (XB1)Skippy575 said:

The real crime is giving Itzal a ripline ability.

 

On 2019-11-22 at 2:05 PM, LSG501 said:

Yeah, nice they've given it to others, still no reason to use anything other than itzal in open world imo, but that cooldown is a serious nerf to blink. 

Kind of feels like they're still trying to get people to use k-drives so basically nerfing the thing they see as being the 'main reason' for us not using k-drives is the usual DE logic.... even though it's completely wrong because most of us use archwings because they go over instead of around hills etc...

And itzals replacement ability is in all honesty a joke ability, it doesn't even work properly on valkyr so no way it's going to be useful on itzal.

 

On 2019-11-22 at 2:05 PM, Jarriaga said:

Same reason why Catchmoon was nerfed: DE doesn't like it when something is used so much that it invalidates the rest. 

 

On 2019-11-22 at 2:06 PM, ixidron92 said:

FFS I wish we could opt out of certain features, like taking blink away from itzal and nerfing it to the ground. Literally everyone uses it just to move from place to place in open world. Why the nerf? At this point I just can't...

 

On 2019-11-22 at 2:09 PM, LSG501 said:

To be honest there are 'better' ways of fixing this than adding in the nerf via a cooldown....

They could have given all archwings a fifth ability (ie blink), in the same way warframes can go into operator via pressing 5, archwings could blink by pressing 5 because we don't actually go into the operator in this mode. 

 

Edit: actually the probable reason for the cooldown is so we can't just blink everywhere in railjack missions, which I can kind of understand, but still doesn't stop it feeling like a nerf. 

I agree, please bring the old blink back. I love this game but in protest of this I will not spend money on the next prime access like I normally do.

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I wish DE revert this archwing changes for good. Archwing was fine as it was. It was fast, we could roll, it was way more fun to use.

If they wanna give Itzal´s blink to ALL other archwings, I´m fine with it. But the CD is a BIG no-no.

Revert the changes, make archwing fast again and let us roll the way we used to.

THEN you can go ahead and give the blink to all the other archwings.

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On 2019-11-22 at 3:02 PM, ixidron92 said:

FFS people used blink to quickly traverse from place to place.

You put in on all archwings that gives you a +1. People were actually excited for that feature. Of course, everyone thought you'd be giving the real ability to all Archwing. You know: 0 cooldown, affected by mods, with energy cost.

Then, you give it a 3 second cooldown and try to portray it as something good by highlighting in bold that it's range has doubled and costs no energy, when it truth it's a massive nerf because it now takes way more time to cover the same distance, that would be a -10.

Why nerf blink?! It's an ability to move from place to place. It's a traverse ability with no effect whatsoever in combat. It's like suddenly giving double jump a cooldown.

It took a single blink in the devstream, even before Rebecca had time to explain, and the chat had already erupted with fury. Literally no one was expecting this, and literally everyone opposed it, to the point Rebecca had to nervously beg Steve for a CD reduction to avoid a freaking riot.

Give it to DE to think of something amazing and then implement it the worst possible way. It's becoming a meme at this point. Showcase something great only to delivery the exact opposite of what people were expecting.

So, this is our feedback to DE. We say NO to Blink CD

agreed

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Honestly DE, revert the archwing nerfs. Old flight system was WAY better. and fun to fly, we could roll and it was way faster than it is now.

Oh, and the blink CD is bs.

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