(XBOX)Knight Raime Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 On 2019-11-24 at 4:13 AM, TheLexiConArtist said: I can't agree with any of your points on why Prowl deserves to stay for the sake of arbitrary Quiver arrows. Vauban's recent rework includes a grenade that shares functionality with Bastille/Vortex. Kits can have overlaps without being an issue, but calling Prowls concrete overshoes justified in order to keep Dashwire relevant is simply short-sighted. That's not a synergy, that's a bit of padding to soften something strictly there to inconvenience the player. Vortex and bastille provide different benefits despite both being cc tools. Dash wire only exists for movement because it doesn't provide any other functionality to her kit without an augment. If Ivara had full movement capabilities it 100% becomes invalidated when not using the augment. On 2019-11-24 at 4:13 AM, TheLexiConArtist said: I disagree that Sleep arrow has any relevance to the exposure problem either. In practice, Ivara's just obliged to put Hush, Silent Battery and Suppress on her gear if she wants to remain prowling. That's no gameplay decision, that's an out-of-mission tax. I personally use a bow or baza. I don't feel forced into using a silence mod. My point is that sleep arrow allows her to take advantage of prowl's innate benefits more easily. and if Ivara never had to worry about uncloaking said benefits from sleep would be lessened. On 2019-11-24 at 4:13 AM, TheLexiConArtist said: Saying 'Ivara is designed to be slower-paced' falls under this same question of execution. Is she designed to be slower-paced, because it grants benefits above and beyond similar Warframe abilities and kits? Or is she obliged to be slower paced simply because the mechanics penalise or prevent anything else with little to no compensation? Either Prowl would need a laundry list of reliable benefits to compensate the crippling drawbacks, making it arguably 'the best stealth ever', or it needs to have those needless drawbacks removed outright, wherein it simply becomes... comparable, and still not 'the best stealth' - that's going to still be Octavia's. Her cloak is a toggle. Which is already far better than every other cloak option in the game and I feel you're undervaluing it on purpose. Her cloak is also the only cloak that comes with extra benefits. She gets extra multipliers for headshots and loot capabilities. Every other cloak in the game simply gets to be invisible. Them being able to move about unhindered isn't a big deal. You can argue it's unfun to play slower. But I don't know why you'd be playing a frame designed to be this way if that's something you're not interested in. As I said. I can agree that some of the drawbacks are a bit much. But she absolutely needs drawbacks for her stealth. On 2019-11-24 at 4:13 AM, TheLexiConArtist said: The impetus to be slow and methodical is not a positive influence. Ivara relies on stealth for survival, but everything acts to sabotage that. Want to keep up in non-solo missions? Endanger yourself. Caught a DoT status or broke a window? Endanger yourself or lose stacks of energy. In a Grineer mission? Better check yourself before you accidentally yourself onto an Arc Trap. All that, to 'balance' against the benefits of 'minor personal headshot bonus' and 'barely functional looting bonus'. In non solo missions my survival is rarely a problem. If it's an exterminate mission i'm probably teamed up with trash clearing frames. If i'm doing an endless mission I have options. Usually siting up on a dash wire being cloaked when I feel like I need to move. I agree that traps draining energy is a poor thing that should go. On 2019-11-24 at 4:13 AM, TheLexiConArtist said: Also, if you'll allow me to flip the equation and use your own argument for Dashwire, doesn't a crippling Prowl make Cloak Arrows less desirable, or vice-versa? That bubble already fills the stationary stealth niche, and is arguably a better option because you can generate energy (and not lose extra for crossfire/status/melee-strikes). Prowl should be the mobile tool, but it inhibits so much mobility it can't fulfil that. Cloak arrow in my opinion has never existed for Ivara herself but for allies. Simply to have a built in method to share her invisibility without needing an augment. AFAIK her cloak arrow is just straight invisibility. So buffing it or prowl I don't think will effect the other one. Simply because by design prowl is for ivara and cloak arrow is for others. I don't agree about your energy point as energy is rarely a problem for Ivara if you specifically build with duration and efficiency in mind. On 2019-11-24 at 4:13 AM, TheLexiConArtist said: Design-wise of the Prime and Deluxe, that's more of a personal thing (though I see most sharing the opinion, I know better than to take that as objective majority vote). I don't even see a theme on the Deluxe, it's just a mess of elements stabbed onto a frame to my eyes. With regards to the Prime, though, you're playing the degrees of separation to justify the Jellyfish. Where the original is <Dart Frog> = <Deadly> + <Woodland> you're now taking the added leap of <Jellyfish> = <Deadly> + (<Frog> = <Aquatic>) which means you're building from the wrong part of the foundation. This makes the Jellyfish direction more of a 'flying buttress' extension than one with its own directly-grounded base. It's not relevant to Ivara's theme, it's relevant to Ivara's Theme's theme. Think of it like this: If Ivara's base frame design had chosen any other deadly/poisonous woodland creature or hunter than an amphibious frog to fit her theme, would Ivara Prime make any sense? No it wouldn't. Then again, if ivara wasn't a frog princess they wouldn't be making a jelly fish prime. I see where your point is but I find that to be more of a nitpick rather than an actual counter argument. It feels more like a distaste. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ichsuisme Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 Ivara's strong and she's in a good place. I do all my arbitration with her, and only her. Most importantly, to me at least, Ivara is one of the few frames in the game that I consistently switch between builds, depending on how I'd like to play. For example, when I take my Vauban, gara, baruuk, or whoever, I really just stick to my one-size-fits-all build; but with Ivara, I've got a range of options. Unless it's a capture, exterminate, or other mobile mission, I always use my dashwires. I have no issues using them. They are great. Cloak and sleep arrows are also great. On 2019-11-23 at 4:47 AM, TheLexiConArtist said: The Noise Arrow is the least-used arrow in Quiver, primarily due to complete non-functionality the moment a target is Alerted/Hostile. Its current usage is to (slowly) control the location of enemy units in a solo and/or pure-stealth scenario, either separating units to safely stealth-killable locations or grouping them together for easier control with single Sleep Arrows. Ok, we agree on this. Noise is pretty much pointless. It needs a secondary effect -- maybe enemies could show up on the map like Banshee's sonar. I don't need a game-changing buff, but I need a reason to use it. In fact, I can't remember the last time I used noise arrow. Navigator is a mess. I don't like the skill, it really does have awful controls. I know it's the key to Eidolon hunts with Ivara, but in all other missions it's just too messy to use & the flight duration is a pain, especially since it takes me awhile to actually hit anything. And if I'm going to spend the time driving a projectile around, I need it to feel worth it. I need more than raw, pointless, over-kill damage. Prowl is a good skill. As long as you have energy, you can stay in stealth and energy isn't super difficult to keep up. The movement restrictions are unique and I actually like them -- playing Ivara and relying on smart jumping and roll dodging as made me a better player. I would be sad to have those movement restrictions lifted, I want them to stay. You mentioned the noise issue with prowl but now that we have weapon exilus slots, prowl was buffed; although even before these exilus slots, I wasn't struggling with this. Before, I just modded for silence or used a innately silent weapon. Energy being drained on movement, receiving damage, and melee kills never felt great. Those costs should definitely be removed. Lastly, given Ivara's diverse build choice, I don't think the steal chance shouldn't be tied to power strength. Her Artemis bow is fine. It's strong and I like the charge level determining the angle of the shot. My one note to give is that the other exalted weapons feel stronger. The augment for this on the other hand is terrible. On 2019-11-23 at 4:47 AM, TheLexiConArtist said: --Augment: Concentrated Arrow is the name of the mod...this mod actively nerfs Artemis Bow if you fail to meet its trigger requirements (headshots) with every shot you fire. Like @DatDarkOne said, you nailed it here. It's a bad mod. Sleep arrow can help with head shots since enemies won't be moving, but even that takes too long to set up. I just end up frustrated and wasting my time. I can kill enemies quicker without the mod. The augment should just be a guaranteed lenz-type shot without the lenz's delay. What are the chances that DE tweaks her just a little for her prime release? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zakaryx Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 I like Ivara but she could use some love. Personally I would replace noise arrow with null-shield arrow from conclave. It strips shields and could also be made to strip some armor for Grineer. With that change suddenly all of her arrows are completely viable in any mission. Hell just tack on "it generates noise" to it as well and call it "utility arrow". Navigator is crap and the augment is crap. I can't think of any way to make it useful so I'll let other people come up with ideas. The only change I would want for prowl is to make it work the same way while jumping as it does while shooting a loud weapon. When you shoot a loud weapon prowl goes away for a small moment and then you're once again in prowl. If you bullet jump or sprint however your prowl is gone completely and you have to recast it. I just want to be able to leave prowl on without having to constantly recast the ability whenever I maneuver. I also realize you can get around this by zipping around with void flow and mind sprint but I don't think operator abilities should be considered when thinking about balancing warframe abilities. I hate how Artemis bow feels. At close range with a corrosive/hunters muntion build you can delete lvl 160 corrupted gunners in a few left clicks. If you get more than twenty feet away though suddenly it feels like you're throwing pebbles instead of shooting arrows. I've always thought it was weird that she had the only bow in the game that didn't get increased damage from charging the shot. I would change her 4 so that holding the button switches between verticle/horizontal. Charging the bow should decrease the spread of the projectiles. The damage is fine but it's a pain in the ass to use at any sort of range. If I'm close enough to do full damage on an enemy it would just be better for me to smack them with my sword instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLexiConArtist Posted November 27, 2019 Author Share Posted November 27, 2019 9 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said: Vortex and bastille provide different benefits despite both being cc tools. Dash wire only exists for movement because it doesn't provide any other functionality to her kit without an augment. If Ivara had full movement capabilities it 100% becomes invalidated when not using the augment. I personally use a bow or baza. I don't feel forced into using a silence mod. My point is that sleep arrow allows her to take advantage of prowl's innate benefits more easily. and if Ivara never had to worry about uncloaking said benefits from sleep would be lessened. I apologise for being too ambiguous with these - for Vauban's kit, I referred to his new 'tether mine' versus the Vortex part of his current 4th ability, named "Bastille/Vortex". Bastille and Vortex do have different enough functions, but the Tether Mine is simply a cheaper and fewer-targeting Vortex. Naturally silent weaponry I thought was redundant to mention. But, there are not a lot of them in the grand scheme of some 84 unique primaries (primes/variants disregarded) and 79 unique secondaries (variants disregarded but including kitgun types). It's still a limitation that you do have to engage with - harshly limit your toolset, or spend that extra mod tax keeping quiet. 9 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said: Her cloak is a toggle. Which is already far better than every other cloak option in the game and I feel you're undervaluing it on purpose. Her cloak is also the only cloak that comes with extra benefits. She gets extra multipliers for headshots and loot capabilities. Every other cloak in the game simply gets to be invisible. Them being able to move about unhindered isn't a big deal. You can argue it's unfun to play slower. But I don't know why you'd be playing a frame designed to be this way if that's something you're not interested in. As I said. I can agree that some of the drawbacks are a bit much. But she absolutely needs drawbacks for her stealth. Channelling has its own implicit drawbacks, namely to energy regeneration. Yes, you can work around this with things like Arcane Energise, or Sharpshooter (if you want to pay even more mod tax). I treat duration-based abilities by the "Energy Siphon Threshold" - if a build can cover the cost with that 0.6 energy per second, then it can, functionally, be indefinite. This is something I've mentioned before. Even Ash's paltry 8 second base passes this test. Anything channelled, of course does not. It also imposes a limit on the total effectiveness of the build as Duration and Efficiency tie onto the same statistic - you can only reach 'full efficiency', you cannot reach full efficiency and a longer duration (which is more effective efficiency beyond). You might argue the 'window of opportunity' for re-casting - this is as fixable in build as anything you can do to alleviate Ivara's problems, e.g. by timed Rolling Guards. Octavia doesn't even suffer this as the stealth buff is disjointed from the ability. Prowl, therefore, wins only by AFK, as I stated previously. You can sit AFK and remain hidden better than anyone else, assuming Octavia's not abusing a macro. It's not unfun to play slower - unless you're playing slower for tantamount no reason, as Ivara has to. That little headshot bonus? It's a forgettable, background benefit. Half the time the hitboxes for headshot feel like being temperamental, or your targets might not technically even have heads, so does it really justify that much of a drawback? Similarly the pickpocketing, while 'a bonus', is so tedious it requires you to stop everything else. Again, not a prominent enough draw to have a constant drawback in all usage - and let's not forget it has the unique property of being able to be made worse (<100% strength) with no corresponding benefit (>100% strength); the literal definition of being an arbitrary drawback for the sake of drawbacks. 9 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said: In non solo missions my survival is rarely a problem. If it's an exterminate mission i'm probably teamed up with trash clearing frames. If i'm doing an endless mission I have options. Usually siting up on a dash wire being cloaked when I feel like I need to move. I agree that traps draining energy is a poor thing that should go. Any damage suffered on a naturally squishy frame is its own penalty. Statuses and traps are the worst offenders for just draining away reserves outright, but even the incidental touches and crossfire should go - you need to be cloaked to keep going when things get at all challenging, as you say, so being forced out of that, on an ability that is also terminal due to channelling if you can't go get energy top-ups, is poor design. Even in solo you can get caught up sometimes, when enemies have some mission objective to target and, being in stealth, you can't hear that good old NpcThrownGrenadeWeapon about to obliterate the universe, as it tends to do. 9 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said: Cloak arrow in my opinion has never existed for Ivara herself but for allies. Simply to have a built in method to share her invisibility without needing an augment. AFAIK her cloak arrow is just straight invisibility. So buffing it or prowl I don't think will effect the other one. Simply because by design prowl is for ivara and cloak arrow is for others. I don't agree about your energy point as energy is rarely a problem for Ivara if you specifically build with duration and efficiency in mind. If Cloak Arrows could be Navigated and actually stuck to myself, I'd probably try to do that quite often instead of lumbering around in Prowl. Admittedly, Prowl became slightly less inferior an option even in this case when Nullifiers got yet another function to put on their Majestic Tower of Hats, since before that it took overlapping Ivara herself to reveal her inside the Cloak area, as it would while Prowling (plus she could move around inside the area less slowly). Cloak for others, though, it'd be nice if there was a 'hold option' for Navigator that would let us auto-mark a target to make sticking them easier. It's such a nice function, but so unreliable. Even AI Operatives can take a few shots when they decide to start wandering. I assume, again, that you're utilising Arcane Energise for the energy problem. I tried for a while to run Ivara before I had that available and ranked, and really, the orbs are just too unreliable - especially if you're losing energy from those extra melee/damaged taxes, or using more than Prowl. That and (Primed) Flow too - all these are near-mandatory taxation not to improve, but to maintain necessary function. Maybe you can circumvent the energy problem. I know I can, wild traps/dots notwithstanding. But the design of the frame should not be for the '1%' - especially when the active playerbase for the frame is so vanishingly small it doesn't even exist on a stacked bar graph. 9 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said: No it wouldn't. Then again, if ivara wasn't a frog princess they wouldn't be making a jelly fish prime. I see where your point is but I find that to be more of a nitpick rather than an actual counter argument. It feels more like a distaste. You know the 'six degrees of separation' theory? Almost anyone can be connected with anyone else, through that few total social links? Consider that when it comes to thematic design. Say we accept this, then years down the line we get Ivara Umbra or something. Now, since we have precedent that we can take degrees of separation, Ivara Umbra can now be designed after anything not only related to her 'deadly woodland huntress' interpretation which became Poison Dart Frogs, but also her Prime's 'passive-but-deadly unrelated water creature' jellyfish incarnation. If you pick out arbitrary facets of a frog and/or a jellyfish, then you can make the same argument for a whole slew of wildly unrelated entities to base Umbr-Ivara upon. Literally anything aquatic is fair game, for instance, because you have at least 'two connections' in that it corresponds with Jellyfish and Frogs. Doesn't have to hunt or even necessarily deadly - we've already linked it two times, despite both being through degrees of separation. It dilutes the theme. You have to tie it to the foundation. If you build a structure with a thin base that only gets wider as you go up, you're going to have stability problems. I'm aware that may seem esoteric and theoretical, but at its core the point is that making such a logical leap should only come after exhausting any inspiration from the foundation of the theme. 6 hours ago, Ichsuisme said: Ivara's strong and she's in a good place. I do all my arbitration with her, and only her. Most importantly, to me at least, Ivara is one of the few frames in the game that I consistently switch between builds, depending on how I'd like to play. For example, when I take my Vauban, gara, baruuk, or whoever, I really just stick to my one-size-fits-all build; but with Ivara, I've got a range of options. I feel Ivara can be strong, but she's not in a good place. If she were, you'd see more of her - I'm sure that graph DE gave us counts solo missions as well, yet Ivara's still practically nonexistent on it. As I like to put it, she's functional, even strong, but all in spite of herself - and those many little and larger faults. There are a few frames that can be serviceable in many tasks with a single build. Even myself with Ivara, I generally stick to my basic 'sneak and huge-range Quiver' build for most content, unless I really need powerful Navigator/Artemis Bow - my risky, max-strength min-duration C loadout - or I'm specifically out to sit forever-prowling and steal - my paper-thin but all the duration, energy, efficiency and range (in that order, but without sacrificing 100% strength for obvious reasons) B loadout. I think that's more a personal factor - I have variant builds on my own Gara and Baruuk for different approaches. However, I might argue that Ivara is obliged to strongly different mod builds for her varying functionality, just to compensate the caveats in the kit - where others can make strong primary functions without leaving them at a complete loss of the things the build disfavours. 6 hours ago, Ichsuisme said: Unless it's a capture, exterminate, or other mobile mission, I always use my dashwires. I have no issues using them. They are great. Cloak and sleep arrows are also great. Ok, we agree on this. Noise is pretty much pointless. It needs a secondary effect -- maybe enemies could show up on the map like Banshee's sonar. I don't need a game-changing buff, but I need a reason to use it. In fact, I can't remember the last time I used noise arrow. As a first ability, Quiver is overall excellent. I hesitate to say that Cloak and Sleep are fundamentally flawed, just that it would be nice if their baselines were bumped up a little so that it isn't required to go quite as hard into duration/range stats; Cloak's unfortunate companion issue being directly solved is the only real 'hard ask' I make there. Dashwires I use infrequently but despite this, the issues I mentioned often occur. Out on the open-worlds it shows up a lot - whether that's range-based or odd scenery hitboxing. The refund on a 'fail' is my bare minimum expectation and an easy change. Passing over the hit detection to see if it can be improved is a nice to have, better range would make it more forgiving in those really wide areas, but those are at DE discretion. Noise does give off a sort of 'sonar ping', so your suggestion is a good one, I think. Perhaps it could be extended to mark enemies revealed in this way on allied minimaps as well, and/or highlight them, like the Kavat 'Sense Danger' mod. We already have a harder in-combat control in Sleep, so forcing a weaker 'distract' for alerted enemies may be mildly redundant. 6 hours ago, Ichsuisme said: Navigator is a mess. I don't like the skill, it really does have awful controls. I know it's the key to Eidolon hunts with Ivara, but in all other missions it's just too messy to use & the flight duration is a pain, especially since it takes me awhile to actually hit anything. And if I'm going to spend the time driving a projectile around, I need it to feel worth it. I need more than raw, pointless, over-kill damage. I actually used Navigator from an early stage with Ivara - back when Sorties were less refined in their challenge (or maybe I was just insufficiently built on her) I remember having great fun taking a Heavy Caliber Ogris and solving the 'shoot myself in the foot' issue by navigating rockets into the next room to clear it out before I ever needed to reveal myself. Greater control finesse would solve a lot of the issues and inconsistency (anyone who's tried to navigate the Lanka knows about the effect inherent projectile speeds can have). Adding infinite enemy punch-through, even if it's only on the augment, would give it a better identity as something other than overkill, especially with static energy costs. The 'rule of cool' says that navigating my single arrow through a legion of Grineer all flooding down the corridor towards me is not overpowered! It's hard to argue with 1500% or higher damage buffs on something that persists, though. Zenistar-Navigator was lovely, before both lifespan pausing was removed, and the Zeni-disk duration base was annihilated recently. Do you have any other thoughts on Navigator functionality besides these/the baseline? 6 hours ago, Ichsuisme said: Prowl is a good skill. As long as you have energy, you can stay in stealth and energy isn't super difficult to keep up. The movement restrictions are unique and I actually like them -- playing Ivara and relying on smart jumping and roll dodging as made me a better player. I would be sad to have those movement restrictions lifted, I want them to stay. You mentioned the noise issue with prowl but now that we have weapon exilus slots, prowl was buffed; although even before these exilus slots, I wasn't struggling with this. Before, I just modded for silence or used a innately silent weapon. Energy being drained on movement, receiving damage, and melee kills never felt great. Those costs should definitely be removed. Lastly, given Ivara's diverse build choice, I don't think the steal chance shouldn't be tied to power strength. Perhaps the augment could be refined the opposite way - to restrict but add real benefits - if it really meant that much to you, but overall, the issue is that the ability is not providing enough baseline benefits - compared with similar abilities - to justify so many caveats in using it. Inherent slowness is often a denier of co-op play, because you just never get anywhere before the fight's over; tying this into something you're expected to rely on to survive is just painful. As I said in the other block of replies - energy is more difficult to keep up for Prowl than anything else, because they can all be indefinite with a single Energy Siphon. Short of Arcane Energise/Sharpshooter snipers, it's very possible, even expected, to run short of energy in Prowl, particularly if you're also using your Bow and Quiver to accomplish more alongside it than just 'not getting shot'. Objectively, even with weapon exilus, the obligation to silence the weapon is still a tax Prowl forces you to pay. You pay an adapter to unlock the slot, or you pay a 'power slot' in the main build, and you might even have to pay an extra Forma if the Exilus came with Madurai polarity instead of Naramon. All just so you don't give enemies free tickets to murder you. The steal-strength issue is one of being a drawback for drawback's sake. It doesn't exist as a 'choice', it exists purely as a penalty - because there's no beneficial aspect to higher strength, for stealing, only a chance to get screwed over on what is already a mechanical chore. Other looting abilities, although most are augments, are still strength agnostic; except I believe Atlas' Ore Gaze scales with strength, but positively as well as potentially negatively. 6 hours ago, Ichsuisme said: Her Artemis bow is fine. It's strong and I like the charge level determining the angle of the shot. My one note to give is that the other exalted weapons feel stronger. The augment for this on the other hand is terrible. Like @DatDarkOne said, you nailed it here. It's a bad mod. Sleep arrow can help with head shots since enemies won't be moving, but even that takes too long to set up. I just end up frustrated and wasting my time. I can kill enemies quicker without the mod. The augment should just be a guaranteed lenz-type shot without the lenz's delay. I'm not against the gradual charge-angle motion, I just find it odd and (very situationally) inconvenient that I can fire / but never \ in those edge cases where a diagonal shot is optimal. Concentrated Arrow could be taken in so many ways, but fundamentally I feel like its name is so misleading it should never have hit release. Shooting 'one fat arrow' has been a pretty common desired option for Artemis Bow, whether or not they were talking about the augment, and I like it for the potential with Navigator. Taking the bomb out of the equation for a moment, can you visualise a build with both actual Concentrated Arrows and the 'infinite enemy punch-through' Piercing Navigator I suggested? That one fat ballista bolt carrying its hefty, multiplied damage through as many troops as you care to - especially if the concentrated arrow had a nice generous hitbox. It sounds like spicy fun to me. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlindStalker Posted November 28, 2019 Share Posted November 28, 2019 (edited) Sorry, I meant to reply to both of you earlier (but other things as well happen). This is a very delayed reply back, i just wanted to come back to both of you. There are more follow up replies that I'd like to talk about later. I'll get to them whenever. I can. On 2019-11-24 at 4:09 PM, Xzorn said: She still scales quite high simply because she's a stealth frame. Helps she also has numerous multipliers but level cap? Nah. There are still frames that can hit lvl 2,000 - 5,000 range under perfect storm conditions. ie Zephyr vs Corpus. Limbo Vs Infested, ect. I know without buffs Lanka on it's own can scale to lvl 2,000 Corpus so ideally Ivara with her modifiers can push more. EDIT: I do hope they update Artemis Bow. After the bow rework I find it hard to justify. I've been converted to the Daikyu dark side since DE seems to hate Dread. When you compare Artemis to Daikyu or Lenz; it's pretty hard to reason it's energy costs. Thank you for the reply Xzorn, I appreciate you giving us a ballpark idea on Ivara's current state of potential scaling. Has Artemis Bow fallen behind the power curve? I had made a suggestion in my original reply (now finally way up, on the first page of this thread) to have Artemis Bow start off with a tight vertical shot grouping (similar to Cernos Prime) to encourage vertical shots as accurate far shots and to have charging spread out the arrows horizontally (like it does). I was disappointed when my Cernos Prime seemed to potentially keep up (and maybe outpace my neutral strength Artemis Bow, wasn't really doing thorough testing,was just messing around with hunter muntion builds on both bows in sim). But has Artemis Bow fallen behind the power of other bows? I do hope it gets some sort of update. On 2019-11-24 at 4:07 PM, DatDarkOne said: Navigator previously never had an issue controlling ANY Projectile until not long after a certain Video was released on Youtube that directly called fact to this with the Arca Plasmor. Not long at all after that video was released, the interaction of Arca Plasmor with Navigator and also Sonicor (similar projectile type) was nerfed into non-existance. This was not the case when the Plasmor was first released. I know because it was one of the things I tested on buying the Arca Bundle on it's release. 😄 The point I was trying to get to, was that I think that there is precedence for us to request from DE to fix navigator to return it to its former fun state with overriding the projectile self-detonation limit/range limit. Since it was never addressed in patch notes, I think there is fair grounds to ask DE to look into it. Navigator I would say is Ivara's most unique ability and I would encourage people to have fun with it and not to think of it as a throw-away ability. It's situational, but can be useful. On 2019-11-24 at 4:07 PM, DatDarkOne said: Let's just say I don't agree on "Stealth Nerfs" not being a thing. My post directly above yours is just one example of that very thing. It's also why my comments in the other topic were requesting (borderline demanding) a response from DE. The bulletjump with Prowl, I knew was a bug right off as I had previous experience with Prowl before the bug existed to recognize it as such. Remember when I told you why the bulletjump bug being fixed didn't bother me and who was talking reason then? After 4 years of exploring every possible way to use stealth, stealth tactics, and how it interacts with one specific frame and you playstyle, you tend to notice even the slightest changes that effect that playstyle when they appear. I'm not saying that DE hasn't been upfront in most things. What I am saying is that I think DE has been silently experimenting and gauging our responses to little changes here and there in order to see what paths they can take with Warframe. Ivara Prime's release just happens to be at the crux of how to handle Stealth from here on out. This is just my opinion on stealth mechanics in Warframe. I feel they are very contrived and have not been worked on for years. They need a distinctive overhaul to make them feel far more fleshed out as they lack any real mechanical depth to them. I would say out of the entire roster, Loki and Ivara are probably the only two stealth frames that have stealth utility mechanics built into their kits towards the pseudo stealth mechanics that we have (Loki's decoy and switch teleport, and Ivara's noise arrow (to some extent the sleep and cloak arrows too)). PS - feel free to correct me Xzorn on Loki, since I know he's your most used frame. I did forgot about Banshee, but her silence ability is leading to my first and second point below. This is all we ever care about in regards to the 'current stealth mechanics' in Warframe. Stealth affinity multiplier Stealth damage multipliers I don't want to get shot at because we're at an enemy level that is very high and can easily kill me. All of those I feel are very contrived because they only relate to farming affinity or combat. There's not a lot of mechanical depth to them. What I'm saying is that I would love mission modes where stealth actually means something. Where going stealthily would actually be warranted or enjoyable, or actually considered a strong enough valid approach to completing a game mode with good rewards. Right now, we can just bum-rush our way through any mission, meandering about however we please since the enemies pose no real threat to us. We can kill things with the snap of our fingers with the right type of builds. There's no valid reason to go a stealth approach in Warframe... unless you're farming stealth affinity. It's easier to just rush things with a nuke setup (if the mission is tedious) or to use a frame with lots of eHP if the situation gets tough. I guess I still remember days of Payday 2 (a long time ago when I used to play it) where that game had genuine stealth mechanics as part of its game play loop. You could either go stealth or loud (on most missions. Some were stealth only, others were loud only). There were missions that were stealth only (man I miss doing shadow raid). a heist that was first stealth only type of mission. The player had to go through memorizing the layout of the map, being careful to figuring out what kind of stealth build to use, carefully studying guard pathing and camera placement and maneuver around them. Shadow raid was great because if you got spotted, you only had 1 minute left to steal the rest of the treasures/goods or it was game over. I loved that because it's harsh punishment if you don't play the stealth approach carefully. There were of course other heists in payday 2 where if you screwed up stealth, basically you had to go loud at that point (but if you were playing really high level heists with a stealth only build, you practically had no good damage output and you were likely screwed and had to restart the entire heist again). As a game play loop, it was satisfying to play stealth approaches in Payday 2 because it had actual in-depth stealth mechanics built into the game. But PD2 and Warframe are two different games. WF's stealth mechanics are barely noticeable and contrived at best, just my opinion. I'll just focus in on Noise Arrow to end this part off. Noise arrow is the type of mechanic that I would expect in stealth games, where if the game's protagonist has like a 'rock (or something)' where they use that rock as a distraction to get guards to move away from their post. In stealth games, where the focus is not to go 'guns ablazing' and where you get punished for doing that type of behaviour, that 'rock throw' is invaluable in trying to manipulate the surroundings around you in order to reach the end of the level/or end goal. In Warframe, we don't have a good use case scenario for Ivara's noise arrow. It is almost utterly pointless because once the ai becomes fully alert, they stop listening to the noise arrow. Plus, it's not really satisfying to use, because DE has implemented enemy ai relocation scripts into the game. Due to certain perma-invisible frames (Ivara as for example), if Ivara stays in prowl mode for the entire mission and just walks towards the end of the level, there will be some sort of enemy relocation script that kicks in because the enemy ai can't afford to lose track of Ivara. They are flagged to not attack her, but if they lose track of her, then the game's enemy ai breaks along with the mission. The relocation script is there just so that the player does not lose the immersion of the base being filled with enemies since there is a limited pool of them that can spawn at that time and if our stealth frog wanders too far off then ai script has to kick in. Enemy ai who was attracted by the noise arrow initially, and then get relocated when Ivara wanders off from them, have trouble "listening" to the noise arrow again. Noise arrow needs more practical better use case scenarios because it is suffering from poor enemy ai behaviour. I don't want to cut out the noise arrow however, I still think it's a defining unique arrow in Ivara's quiver, but it needs some serious updating/love. The problem is two fold, making noise arrow effective to warrant usage of a stealth approach (instead of constantly going guns ablazing) that also gives good rewards, and improving enemy ai and missions where it is more warranted for usage. Will Ivara Prime get DE to look at stealth mechanics in WF's current situation? Hopefully. Because they are sorely lacking right now. Edited November 28, 2019 by BlindStalker 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLexiConArtist Posted November 28, 2019 Author Share Posted November 28, 2019 On 2019-11-24 at 10:31 AM, BlindStalker said: @TheLexiConArtist A rough template of most of the ideas that I had in my head. Many of these are similar or same ideas proposed by your op as well. Sorry, I think there were a couple of others, but I might have forgotten them (hopefully I'll remember them later). Most of these changes are just numbers tweaking, but some other slight changes. Note, all "base values" presented are assumed for an Ivara at max level (rank 30). Alright, thanks for the input. I'll go through this as well for discussion's sake, even though we're broadly in agreement: Passive On 2019-11-24 at 10:31 AM, BlindStalker said: Passive: update it to also include loot on the radar (basically give Ivara 'animal instinct' instead of just pure 'enemy radar') A nice-to-have that at least doesn't currently step on any other passives' toes. Admittedly the enemy radar alone isn't the strongest of passives, but it's thematic and they do vary wildly over all frames, so this isn't a sole outlier. Quiver Spoiler On 2019-11-24 at 10:31 AM, BlindStalker said: 2. Quiver: Sleep Arrow Change base radius from 6m to 8m Change base duration from 10s to 12s Cloak Arrow Change base radius from 2.5m to 4m Change base duration from 12s to 14s Dashwire Arrow If the dashwire cannot materialize, the energy is not spent (no one likes firing an ability and having it do nothing. Dashwires do no materialize sometimes, due to level geometry issues, but still cost energy when used). Possibly increase the range from 100m to 150m (purely only for open-world tilesets) Noise Arrow Update noise arrow by adding a duration mechanic to it as well, base time 6s (affected by mods). When enemies are attracted to the noise arrow, upon arriving at the designated spot they will stay attracted to it for the given duration before returning to their normal behaviour. (The other side of this is that 'ai coding behaviour' with stealth mechanics must be improved too, to further emphasis the usefulness and uniqueness of noise arrow). Noise arrow though, does still need something else to make it more useful, but I can't come up with anything else at the moment. It's possibly best that Sleep and Cloak are simply standardised to each other's stronger stats - a 6m base Cloak and 12s base Sleep would go a long way. The Cloak bubble can get pretty sad - in the ability demonstration video you can even see the player almost getting shot inside the basic size of bubble just from the enemy shooting at last-known location. On the other hand, there's an argument to be made not to make it too big due to the omnipresent Nullifier Problem. I would immensely like DE to return that to the way it used to work, where the null-bubble reveals on player overlap instead of deleting the whole cloaking area. That's not just an Ivara issue, granted, but I've gotten used to my overextended Sleeps and having to reduce them to keep functionality of Cloak would be just awful-tasting. Other than Nullifiers, there's only good things to be said about extending build flexibility by making the baselines less restrictive. We agree on Dashwires wholly. Refund energy on fail, minimum. Nice to have better range and fewer fails based on hitbox pickiness. What did you think of the Noise Arrow in-combat usage discussed recently in the thread where it could minimap mark and possibly outline-highlight enemies in range, albeit probably smaller than the current non-combat function's 20m base as 50+m of enemy highlight is a bit much for a partial/first ability? It's still fairly niche, but it would at least be useful and thematic to extend her 'passive radar' benefit when situations call for it. Navigator Spoiler On 2019-11-24 at 10:31 AM, BlindStalker said: Navigator Fix current existing client/host bug (see this bug report: Ivara Navigator bug with glaives as host vs client) Fix navigator so that it has the ability to pause projectile self-detonation time/projectile range limit again. This is complicated to explain, but navigator used to override the limit of how long a projectile could be flown before it exploded/detonated. Example, formerly you could fire a sonicor shot and navigate it indefinitely until Ivara ran out of energy. Now you'll get kicked out navigator once the projectile reaches its max range limit (not sure if it's a range thing or projectile self-detonation thing). Possibly reduce the energy drain by a little bit (key emphasis, by a "little bit"). I don't have an exact value on hand. (Keep the damage multiplier and scaling multiplier growth. Navigator is Ivara's cannon ability. it is buggy and the choices are limited for weapons that pair well with it, but its one of the most unique defining features about Ivara and I don't want this ability to be removed from her.) I don't have a problem with the basic energy drain, but I'm absolutely certain the exponential growth of cost over time has to go. Not only is this preventing potential usage of the baseline ability, but it also severely hinders the augment as later discussed. On an ability that intrinsically prevents topping up channelled energy by removing control from the frame there is no justification to need something that reinforces a Total Time Limit Per Usage in this way. The scaling multiplier growth is a problem in its current form as it encourages antisynergy with Ivara's survival - needing to tank Duration as hard as you can so you don't have to wait for multiplier growth puts both defensive/utility Quiver arrows and Prowl into a far less functional/sustainable spot. If the growth stays it needs to be changed to some other relation or dependency, whether that's making it positive duration growth or by tying it in as a proportion of the total (and therefore not becoming linearly more prohibitive as strength increases). We don't have many abilities that co-depend stats, mostly it's the Duration+Efficiency Channelling cost structure, but there are some mono-stat outliers such as Nova's Null Stars and Gauss' Redline abilities which scale from Duration where ordinarily Strength would be used. Making Navigator a 'Duration+Strength' combination shouldn't be too unreasonable an option. Prowl Spoiler On 2019-11-24 at 10:31 AM, BlindStalker said: Prowl Change duration steal time from 2.5s to 2s Change headshot bonus from 40% to 50% (No reason to actually put this, I just like 50% more) Change base steal range from 4m to 5m. Possibly remove the drain multiplier on melee entirely Possibly change the drain on hit from 10 energy to 2 energy per hit. (Only for 'Infiltrate' - increase the base movement speed of mod from 25% to 50%). We've discussed the issues with baseline cripples and the Infiltrate augment in particular being barely identified as anything more than a compensation for that. I wouldn't complain about better headshot bonuses, but I don't feel these minor number tweaks would be enough to make the stealing viable. Fail-steals have to go, because there's not really anything DE can add in on the positive side of the spectrum to make it a build choice and not an arbitrary penalty. The stealing may be 100% chance, but that's not unheard of even in AOE (is it, Hydroid?) and the implicit limiting factor of living targets is more than enough of a consideration. The steal time for single targets needs to be absolutely slashed if it's not moving to a multi-target model, so that heavy Duration isn't the only way to make it happen in any reasonable time - alternatively, allowing multiple targets under the current model with only minor tweaks to range and/or duration would be a safe alternative. (Maybe this single/multi targeting steal could even be a tradeoff in a REAL Prowl augment?) Artemis Bow Spoiler On 2019-11-24 at 10:31 AM, BlindStalker said: Artemis Bow Change the charge rate of Artemis Bow from 1.00 to 0.9 Make the vertical spread of Artemis Bow significantly tighter to encourage vertical shots as "long range accurate shots for headshots" while keeping horizontal shots as its normal wide spread. Basically Artemis Bow starts out with tight vertical spread and widens out to wide horizontal spread when charging it. See screenshots for significant comparison between Cernos Prime's vertical spread vs Artemis Bow's huge vertical spread. The Cernos Prime can be used effectively at longer ranges, Artemis Bow is sadly too wide-spread for long range engagements: This is how wide the vertical spread of Artemis Bow is at 10m. I have split chamber and VA mulit-shot mods on. You can't realistically get all 18 arrows to hit an enemy's head in vertical angle, even at point blank range. Read screenshot for further details. This is the Cernos Prime's vertical shot, and by the way that's all 8 arrows being shot in a very tight grouping (due to mulit-shot mods). Cernos Prime can accurately hit headshots at range with its vertical shot, all 8 arrows! Read screenshot for further details. (Investigate the mulit-shot bugs with Artemis Bow, if they exist. Refer to OP's post in the original spoiler above.) I can see where you're coming from with this, especially with the Cernos Prime in comparison. However, I'm not absolutely convinced. I feel like Artemis is still pretty solid single-target with the vertical spread, even if it's not all hitting the head bonus. It might not be in-mission diversity like you'd prefer, but making the Concentrated Arrow do what it says on the proverbial tin would make the out-of-mission choice a matter of favouring AOE or favouring the single shot. Iif the bomb was still kept on Concentrated along with the actual-concentrating-of-arrows, then it becomes the better single target with the more dubious AOE clear (depending on the surrounding build and Hunter Munition). Base AB then becomes the nicer and convenient AOE spread option with a lesser favouring of the single target. The more efficient headshots you make of them, the more the two build options narrow their favoured fields - Concentrated gets its area damage in through bombs that wouldn't otherwise happen on bodyshots, while basic Artemis can squeeze out more of its single-targeting damage potential the closer you are with more of the arrow spread connecting headshot bonuses. (The bug absolutely exists, by the way. I fancied Void Strike Artemis Bow as a potential super-damaging meme build until Simulacrum testing showed me how '20x per shot' damage multipliers got slashed into a functional 2x.) Augments Spoiler On 2019-11-24 at 10:31 AM, BlindStalker said: Augments: baking them into Ivara's kit Now comes for a more unique change that is designed to encourage players to understand that Ivara can be used outside of 'spy missions'. I am disappointed when players only view Ivara as a frame that is only 'good for spy missions and nothing else'. Sure Ivara can do spy missions, but she can do SO MUCH more if the player just puts in some effort to understand her better. I keep calling Ivara a 'technical utility glass cannon, jack of all trades, master of none' type of frame. Most people don't even understand that Ivara is a glass cannon and just focus in on 'prowl' and nothing else. This narrow-mindness causes people to only regulate Ivara to spy missions. My other proposal is this, Bake some of Ivara's augments into her kit so that the glass cannon and technical utility aspects of Ivara's kit are better emphasized to players. Empowered quiver - baking EQ into Ivara's kit, should send a message to the player that she can give unique team buffs with crit-wire, that her cloak is also useful for status effect cleansing. They would at least better encourage players to use dashwires in combat more frequently. It would be basic QoL if EQ got added in as standard for her kit. It would send a message to the player that Ivara can provide obvious meaningful buffs to the team if EQ was baked in without having to balance modding around it (this issue is probably what stops people from using it as often, besides not taking Ivara out at all). This would then free up the augment slot for 'Quiver' so that something new can be created for Ivara. Infiltrate - over time, I've been disappointed with this mod. Not because its bad, but because this mod accidentally caused Ivara to be 'pigeon-holed' into the spy niche. So many people just stick this mod on her, not really caring about the other stats and call it a day, building Ivara. At this point, you might as well just make it a permanent part of her kit. I don't want people to constantly just slap this augment on Ivara and to not do anything else with her. It would hopefully encourage people to realize that 'power strength' on Ivara isn't a "dump stat" since power strength affects 3/4th of Ivara's kit including this augment! Power strength is really juicy on Ivara, it should be emphasized to the player to not dump it, unless you truly are building only for quiver. This would then free up the augment slot for 'Prowl' so that something new can be created for Ivara. Piercing navigator - just bake this mod into her kit already! We know that PN is the least used augment out of all of Ivara's augment. DE's own internal statistics even showed this during Update 25.6. DE only touched/updated augments of which they noticed were severely under-used by the community. Guess which of Ivara's augments got updated? Now navigator is supposed to be Ivara's "cannon" shot. But realistically speaking, PN is such an underused augment that if DE deleted it, nobody would bat an eyelash about its disappearance. However, to emphasize to the player that Ivara can be built as a 'glass cannon', PN should just become a standard part of navigator overall. This would then free up the augment slot for 'Navigator' so that something new can be created for Ivara. Concentrated Arrow - .. okay don't bake this augment into her kit. It should remain as an augment. Update it like others have suggested (combine all the default 7 arrows into 1 arrow, instead of being misleading and only taking the damage of one arrow). Make it actually concentrated in damage. Now, you might have noticed that I kept saying 'free up augment slot' for 'x' ability. The point of baking augments is a few reasons. Again, to change perception in the wf player community that Ivara has unique abilities and that she can be useful outside of her spy niche, and to encourage people to view Ivara as a 'technical utility glass cannon, jack of all trades, master of none' type of frame instead of 'goes invisible and is only useful for spy...'. Ivara's augments are useful and I know some might say OP. But the fact that the average player isn't bringing Ivara out to more end-game activities like Eidolons, or Arbitrations or whatever end-game, and is instead regulating Ivara to just 'spy missions' only, strikes me as disappointing. Baking some of her augments into her kit should hopefully change the perception of the average player into trying more things with her. Encourage players to build for other aspects of her kit, instead of just infiltrate. Freeing up augments would allow new ideas to be proposed for Ivara. For those of you who don't know, Piercing navigator, is an augment that was unfortunately born from extremely poor feedback mis-communication on DE's part. Basically DE polled the design council on what Ivara's navigator augment could have been. The design council voted on 6 different options, and there was a clear favourite that the design council leaned on: "Ivara travels with the projectile, appearing at the location where the ability ends." Basically, give Ivara something similiar to Nezha's Warding Halo teleport ability. This was the top voted choice by a fair margin. However, DE didn't go with that option (I think the reasons were for technical reasons, but I don't if that was the case). In any case, DE didn't go with the top voted option, DE didn't even go with the 2nd most voted option (which was: "reduce energy cost per target hit"). DE gave us Piercing navigator instead, which by the way, was not even option that could be voted on in that poll. In other words, DE what was the point of polling the design council if you were going to just ignore their poll and ultimately give something completely different in the end for Ivara's navigator augment? Baking PN could free up the navigator augment slot and would give DE another chance to try again at maybe creating that voted on idea (or give us a new navigator augment that we would likely use). This is a rough template of idea proposals. At the end of the day, I'm hoping for Ivara to be improved in a way so that more players, take Ivara seriously as a frame and realize that she has great potential and can offer so much more than just 'spy and invisibility'. I don't want Ivara to just be a "pretty face and nothing more" type of frame to the average player. I would like to see them bring Ivara out more, especially out of her comfort zone (But honestly, she is very pretty and beautiful. Of course I'm bias in that regard) With the exception of Infiltrate (as I've made quite clear) I think the existing augments aren't without potential. It's just the design flaws that make them too inconvenient or unreliable. Empowered Quiver suffers because the base Cloak is poor and the Dashwires are temperamental. It's also lacking benefits for half the ability, but I suppose there might be only so much you can ask for. I think baking those in might be excessive; Quiver is already in a strong place notwithstanding those flaws we've pointed out before. I'd personally like Power of Three made cross-content instead of Conclave only, as I've stated - yes it would be the first ability with two augment choices in the same content bracket, but it's got more potential than people credit, although it depends on how wide the spread is - I imagine it's quite tight for Conclave given the lack of range mods but it shouldn't be impossible to give it a more generous angle in PVE. Maybe even scaling the spread arc with range to ensure best coverage, as this would be unaffected by the static stats in Conclave? Piercing Navigator suffers most because the ability makes you want to not keep one projectile going thanks to the ramping cost. The flat punch-through limit also doesn't do as much as it could to ensure the projectile doesn't 'run out'. Fix the channel-cost to the static drain, let the projectile punch through (unit) targets freely, and it's suddenly at least able to be fun, even if not high-meta. Infiltrate should never have been passed. Like Piercing Navigator, I recall it wasn't the council-favoured option (although I think it was actually on the list this time). With the caveats to Prowl it's still too inconvenient to make use of the laser bypass. Without the caveats it's not a strong enough identity for the slot. The speed 'buff' is just salting the current wound. Bake in the anti-laser, perhaps, while removing Prowl's cripples. Either way, new augment required. Concentrated Arrow as we've discussed primarily requires its name to be reflected in what it does, both to not mislead and to promote Navigator synergies. Keeping the bomb would allow that single-target/AOE gradient to narrow in gameplay as I mentioned under Artemis Bow. Giving the mod the Exilus treatment without the bomb would make it instead into a more accessible tweak to the ability, with no direct statistical influence (only Navigator cross-compatibility is really gained potential this way). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teridax68 Posted November 28, 2019 Share Posted November 28, 2019 (edited) My thoughts on Ivara as a non-main: Her passive's fine. Perhaps it'd be more interesting if it allowed Ivara to see enemies through cover within a radius, but as it exists it works well with her kit already. I'm not that big a fan of multi-abilities in general, and I think Quiver's far too fiddly for the otherwise decent utility it provides. Dashwire and Noise arrows in particular feel mostly like filler at this point, though her Cloak and Sleep arrows are obviously quite good. Navigator's a perplexingly over-restricted ability for what is ultimately not that amazing a core effect. I've found it somewhat useful for hunting Sawgaws, but otherwise I don't see how it fits in regular Warframe gameplay, as simply shooting people proves much more effective. I'm on the fence with Prowl, because on one hand, I do genuinely like that it has some tradeoffs, and dislike the general player desire to make its invisibility pretty much always-on like Loki's or Octavia's, but on the other I can agree that it's a needlessly clunky and restrictive ability in many ways. Despite its relative uniqueness, its loot component is something I'd like to get rid of, as I dislike loot abilities in general due to how they warp the game's base loot drop chances. I dislike Exalted weapons in general, and Artemis Bow is no exception: in the end, it's just a bow weapon, and while its damage is decent, it's still pretty much a filler ability, one that doesn't even bother to have special synergy with Ivara's kit other than its silenced projectiles. One could easily take this thing out and turn both it and its augment into separate bow weapons for any frame. Overall, I think Ivara's one of the best frames at fulfilling her theme, and also has one of the most overall coherent kits out there. While she's suffered somewhat from the decline of stealth, I also do think she's established a niche for herself as a master of Conservation, and outside of that she can still perform decently. Furthermore, I don't feel like my opinions align with many of her players over Prowl, as I'd rather make all stealth abilities more interactive, rather than push them all into an easy button press to ignore everything on the map. On the flipside, she's aged nonetheless, and visibly comes from a time when Warframe was a slower game overall. I can thus agree that she could use quite a few improvements. My take on Ivara changes: Make the Artemis Bow a Garuda-style innate primary weapon that becomes available when Ivara selects none. Give it some special mechanic Ivara synergizes with, e.g. bonus crit chance against unalerted or sleeping enemies, and if we're feeling generous it could also have an alt-fire to switch between spread-fire and Concentrated Arrow modes. Reduce Quiver to a single arrow that generates a bubble which simultaneously cloaks allies within and puts enemies within to sleep. Integrate the range, duration, and consistency improvements for both Cloak and Sleep arrows mentioned in the OP. Buff Empowered Quiver in compensation, e.g. "Allies within a Quiver arrow gain 100% status resistance and 100% bonus critical damage". I'd probably rework Navigator completely, ideally into something that lets Ivara move while using it. For example: Ivara empowers her next projectile to remain suspended in the air for a duration after being shot, after which she can continually reactivate the ability to command the shot to fire itself at a target enemy, with infinite punch-through and only a one-time cost paid when first casting the effect. With this, Piercing Navigator could just be pure increased crit chance with every kill. First off, I'd like to completely remove Prowl's loot ability, and instead replace it with a stalking mechanic that gives Ivara an increasing damage multiplier on her next attack against enemies she's close to. Additionally, I'd like to let Ivara run at normal speed with Prowl activated, and remove all of the additional costs saddled onto the ability. However, I wouldn't remove the deactivation on parkouring or sprinting, but instead would have those maneuvers only deactivate Prowl temporarily, just as when making sound with a weapon, so that Ivara's stealth comes back on immediately after the maneuver ends. Thus, Ivara would have to pay attention to her surroundings when stealthed, but would otherwise still be able to reposition without excessive hassle. I agree with the OP that there's likely something more interesting out there than an augment that exists solely to trivialize some component to Spy vaults. If nothing else, simply taking the stalking mechanic mentioned above and making it her Prowl augment could work. Alternatively, one could have something a little funkier, like Prowl temporarily pacifying all enemies in combat with Ivara upon activation. With Artemis Bow moved to an innate weapon, I'd look to give Ivara some other ability that'd complement her theme and playstyle. Off the top of my head, a simple replacement could be for Ivara to paint a mark at the target location on an enemy that'd grant an immense damage bonus to all allied attacks that would hit it. Basically, a single-target Banshee Sonar on steroids that'd work especially well against boss-type enemies, including Eidolons. Sticking to the above example, one way to augment that kind of ability could be to give allies some sort of utility when landing successful hits on the mark, such as healing, or even temporary invulnerability, which could work particularly well against the often chaotic attacks of Eidolons, as well as AoE damage in general, against which Ivara suffers. I think the above would align with the OP in that we both want to unshackle Ivara from a whole bunch of needless restrictions and make her a much more mobile frame overall, while also pushing her marksmanship and having her reward players who aim precisely. Personally, I'd like to keep a few more tradeoffs, and take some more stuff out (but also put some more stuff in), but ultimately I think there's a lot of room to buff Ivara and make her feel as good as she needs. In fact, I'd even be okay with letting her parkour while invisible under Prowl, provided invisibility abilities get collectively looked at in the future. Edited November 28, 2019 by Teridax68 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WitchAlora Posted November 28, 2019 Share Posted November 28, 2019 100% agree with you, finaly someone who plays the warframe and know the theme and her flaws and pointed minor tweaks to improve a lot the warframe. not like people who tries to change the warframe from water to wine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Knight Raime Posted November 28, 2019 Share Posted November 28, 2019 On 2019-11-27 at 1:10 AM, TheLexiConArtist said: I apologise for being too ambiguous with these - for Vauban's kit, I referred to his new 'tether mine' versus the Vortex part of his current 4th ability, named "Bastille/Vortex". Bastille and Vortex do have different enough functions, but the Tether Mine is simply a cheaper and fewer-targeting Vortex. I see, there is some redundancy with his tether mine. In that case I do think tether mine is a poor thing to add to his kit. (mineslayer still mostly is a mess.) Vauban did see some improvements but overall it didn't move him away from his problems. He's mainly a gimmicky cc frame. While tethermine functionally works okay I wouldn't use Vauban's current kit as a good example of acceptable overlap. I will try to restate my point here. There isn't inherently anything wrong with a kit having some overlap as long as each ability provides something the other does not. Dashwire is only mobility. You could argue with me about how much it's benefit would be lessened by allowing full movement in prowl. But that wouldn't change anything or be productive. You'd have a better chance at coming up with a way to buff tether with an additional effect and debating that with me. On 2019-11-27 at 1:10 AM, TheLexiConArtist said: Naturally silent weaponry I thought was redundant to mention. But, there are not a lot of them in the grand scheme of some 84 unique primaries (primes/variants disregarded) and 79 unique secondaries (variants disregarded but including kitgun types). It's still a limitation that you do have to engage with - harshly limit your toolset, or spend that extra mod tax keeping quiet. I disagree about it harshly limiting you. it's not like the baza or bows are bad. Hell the Daikyu is a monster these days. And it's not like other frames do not run loadout types that greatly benefit their kit. On 2019-11-27 at 1:10 AM, TheLexiConArtist said: Channelling has its own implicit drawbacks, namely to energy regeneration. Yes, you can work around this with things like Arcane Energise, or Sharpshooter (if you want to pay even more mod tax). I treat duration-based abilities by the "Energy Siphon Threshold" - if a build can cover the cost with that 0.6 energy per second, then it can, functionally, be indefinite. This is something I've mentioned before. Even Ash's paltry 8 second base passes this test. Anything channelled, of course does not. It also imposes a limit on the total effectiveness of the build as Duration and Efficiency tie onto the same statistic - you can only reach 'full efficiency', you cannot reach full efficiency and a longer duration (which is more effective efficiency beyond). You might argue the 'window of opportunity' for re-casting - this is as fixable in build as anything you can do to alleviate Ivara's problems, e.g. by timed Rolling Guards. Octavia doesn't even suffer this as the stealth buff is disjointed from the ability. Prowl, therefore, wins only by AFK, as I stated previously. You can sit AFK and remain hidden better than anyone else, assuming Octavia's not abusing a macro. an innate drain isn't enough of a drawback imo. We could remove the penalty for her taking energy loss whenever she takes tick damage from aoe or traps. We can remove the extra energy you spend when meleeing. But I think her slow has to stay. On 2019-11-27 at 1:10 AM, TheLexiConArtist said: It's not unfun to play slower - unless you're playing slower for tantamount no reason, as Ivara has to. That little headshot bonus? It's a forgettable, background benefit. Half the time the hitboxes for headshot feel like being temperamental, or your targets might not technically even have heads, so does it really justify that much of a drawback? Similarly the pickpocketing, while 'a bonus', is so tedious it requires you to stop everything else. Again, not a prominent enough draw to have a constant drawback in all usage - and let's not forget it has the unique property of being able to be made worse (<100% strength) with no corresponding benefit (>100% strength); the literal definition of being an arbitrary drawback for the sake of drawbacks. Sleep arrow makes headshots easier to land and even if some enemies don't have a head so long as they're not in an alerted state you're still getting more damage. Overall, i'd rather increase her benefits of the extra damage and make looting as part of that ability better rather than simply removing all the drawbacks she has in favor of a stronger passive energy drain. On 2019-11-27 at 1:10 AM, TheLexiConArtist said: Any damage suffered on a naturally squishy frame is its own penalty. Statuses and traps are the worst offenders for just draining away reserves outright, but even the incidental touches and crossfire should go - you need to be cloaked to keep going when things get at all challenging, as you say, so being forced out of that, on an ability that is also terminal due to channelling if you can't go get energy top-ups, is poor design. Even in solo you can get caught up sometimes, when enemies have some mission objective to target and, being in stealth, you can't hear that good old NpcThrownGrenadeWeapon about to obliterate the universe, as it tends to do. Sure i'd be fine with removing the energy penalty for taking any kind of damage. The main drawback that I believe should stay is her slow nature. On 2019-11-27 at 1:10 AM, TheLexiConArtist said: If Cloak Arrows could be Navigated and actually stuck to myself, I'd probably try to do that quite often instead of lumbering around in Prowl. Admittedly, Prowl became slightly less inferior an option even in this case when Nullifiers got yet another function to put on their Majestic Tower of Hats, since before that it took overlapping Ivara herself to reveal her inside the Cloak area, as it would while Prowling (plus she could move around inside the area less slowly). Cloak for others, though, it'd be nice if there was a 'hold option' for Navigator that would let us auto-mark a target to make sticking them easier. It's such a nice function, but so unreliable. Even AI Operatives can take a few shots when they decide to start wandering. Would be an interesting function for sure. But I still struggle to see a use for her cloak arrow in general. As making others invisible isn't super beneficial. And even if it was trying to maintain cloak for someone else just sounds exhausting. Only way I could see it working is if duration was outright removed for her cloak arrow and it instead was used to create pockets of invisibility for people. Additionally you could still stick that to other players, but them attacking with a non silenced weapon would break the cloak. On 2019-11-27 at 1:10 AM, TheLexiConArtist said: I assume, again, that you're utilising Arcane Energise for the energy problem. I tried for a while to run Ivara before I had that available and ranked, and really, the orbs are just too unreliable - especially if you're losing energy from those extra melee/damaged taxes, or using more than Prowl. That and (Primed) Flow too - all these are near-mandatory taxation not to improve, but to maintain necessary function. Maybe you can circumvent the energy problem. I know I can, wild traps/dots notwithstanding. But the design of the frame should not be for the '1%' - especially when the active playerbase for the frame is so vanishingly small it doesn't even exist on a stacked bar graph. No actually I don't really have any arcanes. My build for stealth missions uses around 200% duration and a good amount of efficiency. I forget if I use P flow on it or not. been awhile since I have used ivara let alone done spy missions in a stealth fashion. I feel like if we removed a lot of the extra energy drain sources for prowl it would drastically buff her survivability without making prowl imbalanced. On 2019-11-27 at 1:10 AM, TheLexiConArtist said: You know the 'six degrees of separation' theory? Almost anyone can be connected with anyone else, through that few total social links? Consider that when it comes to thematic design. Say we accept this, then years down the line we get Ivara Umbra or something. Now, since we have precedent that we can take degrees of separation, Ivara Umbra can now be designed after anything not only related to her 'deadly woodland huntress' interpretation which became Poison Dart Frogs, but also her Prime's 'passive-but-deadly unrelated water creature' jellyfish incarnation. If you pick out arbitrary facets of a frog and/or a jellyfish, then you can make the same argument for a whole slew of wildly unrelated entities to base Umbr-Ivara upon. Literally anything aquatic is fair game, for instance, because you have at least 'two connections' in that it corresponds with Jellyfish and Frogs. Doesn't have to hunt or even necessarily deadly - we've already linked it two times, despite both being through degrees of separation. It dilutes the theme. You have to tie it to the foundation. If you build a structure with a thin base that only gets wider as you go up, you're going to have stability problems. I'm aware that may seem esoteric and theoretical, but at its core the point is that making such a logical leap should only come after exhausting any inspiration from the foundation of the theme. As I said, I understand where you're coming from. I just personally disagree with your stance. I will admit I am biased here because the Jelly is 100% my favorite animal of all time. But I don't think her prime or her deluxe really ruin what she stands for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DatDarkOne Posted November 28, 2019 Share Posted November 28, 2019 (edited) 8 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said: Piercing Navigator That's a mod that I always found to be useless. Mostly because it's defining trait is adding PunchThru to projectiles. Which is something most of the Projectiles already have either innately or mods on the weapon. 7 hours ago, Teridax68 said: Make the Artemis Bow a Garuda-style innate primary weapon that becomes available when Ivara selects none. HELL NO!! 7 hours ago, Teridax68 said: First off, I'd like to completely remove Prowl's loot ability, and instead replace it with a stalking mechanic that gives Ivara an increasing damage multiplier on her next attack against enemies she's close to. Additionally, I'd like to let Ivara run at normal speed with Prowl activated, and remove all of the additional costs saddled onto the ability. However, I wouldn't remove the deactivation on parkouring or sprinting, but instead would have those maneuvers only deactivate Prowl temporarily, just as when making sound with a weapon, so that Ivara's stealth comes back on immediately after the maneuver ends. Thus, Ivara would have to pay attention to her surroundings when stealthed, but would otherwise still be able to reposition without excessive hassle. I can agree with this suggestion. 7 hours ago, Teridax68 said: With Artemis Bow moved to an innate weapon, Refer to previous reply on Artemis Bow. 😄 8 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said: It would hopefully encourage people to realize that 'power strength' on Ivara isn't a "dump stat" since power strength affects 3/4th of Ivara's kit including this augment! Power strength is really juicy on Ivara, it should be emphasized to the player to not dump it, unless you truly are building only for quiver. I know @BlindStalker said this, but it's easier to quote it from your post. I've been promoting Power Strength on Ivara due to how it effects all her powers for over 3 years now. Mostly because the general playerbase build her like they would Loki. Which in turn pigeonholes her into nothing but Spy. I don't really see this changing due to how often People on the forums constantly say use the "best tool" for the job. While constantly changing frames for everything. Those who actually main Ivara tend to think differently anyway. All that said, I really don't care if more people don't play Ivara. This is something I've said to BlindStalker in convos before. I like that Ivara caters to a more Methodical and Tactical type of players. I love that she has a slightly higher learning curve than most other frames. In truth a learning curve that doesn't exist when using some form of "Common Sense". 17 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said: I disagree about it harshly limiting you. it's not like the baza or bows are bad. Hell the Daikyu is a monster these days. And it's not like other frames do not run loadout types that greatly benefit their kit. 17 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said: an innate drain isn't enough of a drawback imo. We could remove the penalty for her taking energy loss whenever she takes tick damage from aoe or traps. We can remove the extra energy you spend when meleeing. But I think her slow has to stay. I agree with these two statements. 17 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said: No actually I don't really have any arcanes. I myself didn't get arcanes until very recently as I just don't need them. They are nice to have but aren't an absolute must to have. I have 1 Arcane energy at base rank. I don't really run into energy issues with Prowl on my 160% Eff/95% Dur general purpose build. That said, I do have all of Zenurik unlocked and that might make a difference. The only time (and I do mean ONLY) I ever have energy issues is during Vampire mode Nightmare missions. 17 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said: But I don't think her prime or her deluxe really ruin what she stands for. Again I agree. As for Umbra Ivara, LMAO. I laugh because I already know that Ivara can be considered a premier Sentient Hunter without the Umbra label. Her Artemis Bow can already brute force it's way through Sentients adaption ability. Sleep, Noise Arrows, Navigator, and Prowl all still work on them. So what would an Umbra version bring that would help her against Sentients that she doesn't already have. Well other than an Umbra Ivara having a new skin, that's really the only thing I can see it really being. Edited November 28, 2019 by DatDarkOne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLexiConArtist Posted November 28, 2019 Author Share Posted November 28, 2019 29 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said: I see, there is some redundancy with his tether mine. In that case I do think tether mine is a poor thing to add to his kit. (mineslayer still mostly is a mess.) Vauban did see some improvements but overall it didn't move him away from his problems. He's mainly a gimmicky cc frame. While tethermine functionally works okay I wouldn't use Vauban's current kit as a good example of acceptable overlap. I will try to restate my point here. There isn't inherently anything wrong with a kit having some overlap as long as each ability provides something the other does not. Dashwire is only mobility. You could argue with me about how much it's benefit would be lessened by allowing full movement in prowl. But that wouldn't change anything or be productive. You'd have a better chance at coming up with a way to buff tether with an additional effect and debating that with me. It's far from the only example, just one on a similar 'does it really matter' paradigm because it is, ultimately, only a fraction of an ability. Ziplines don't see much use whether they're level elements or artificial from Ivara; you should be asking the question of "If all it really does is counter this (inconsistent) drawback, should it be replaced and the drawback simply removed?" Much like Infiltrate in that regard, if you're going to call Dashwires strictly there to offer the mobility Prowl withholds. (I'd still say there are some situational uses for convenient ziplines offering positional advantages and extra anchor-points for problematic parkour sections, though, even without crippled Prowl.) 29 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said: I disagree about it harshly limiting you. it's not like the baza or bows are bad. Hell the Daikyu is a monster these days. And it's not like other frames do not run loadout types that greatly benefit their kit. an innate drain isn't enough of a drawback imo. We could remove the penalty for her taking energy loss whenever she takes tick damage from aoe or traps. We can remove the extra energy you spend when meleeing. But I think her slow has to stay. Sleep arrow makes headshots easier to land and even if some enemies don't have a head so long as they're not in an alerted state you're still getting more damage. Overall, i'd rather increase her benefits of the extra damage and make looting as part of that ability better rather than simply removing all the drawbacks she has in favor of a stronger passive energy drain. Sure i'd be fine with removing the energy penalty for taking any kind of damage. The main drawback that I believe should stay is her slow nature. The quality of those silent weapons is largely irrelevant. It's still an objective limitation that restricts 90% of weapons to either non-usage or mod tax. The Acceltra has even been called 'a better Baza' by some, part of which is because silent weapons do still pay some of their net power budget for that property, overall. I'm still yet to see any actual justification for what makes drawbacks necessary. The ability's secondary benefits (in comparison) are not actually all that great. However accessible you find headshots, with sleep arrows, there's too much of a spread in stat requirements in that approach for it to reach the peak output necessary to be a significant factor. You want Efficiency, Duration and Range to make those sleep arrows tag as many units as possible and keep the extra energy expenditure down, you don't get much room left for Strength. It's only a 1+(base*strength) multiplier, remember. You're getting about 230% damage at maximum baked-in strength stats, on headshots alone. You can't max every stat. Something has to yield. The less said about the pickpocket the better. It's clearly just an afterthought to the ability, implicitly taking you out of the fight to wait for the damn thing to do its job. Our stealth frames can't afford to be immobile. They're already deafened in a way you can't alter settings to fix - which makes grenade death odds even worse - but the snapshot aiming possible at higher enemy levels mean you can be instantly acquired and deleted if you do break that stealth as a squishy target like Ivara. That's why temporary prowl breaks while you're going from point A to point B just don't work. No matter how fast you think you are, that Seeker in the hallway is faster. Other than that, you have the 'no co-op' option of permanent slow-mode. Unsatisfying and DE takes many opportunities to make solo less viable, so having a frame be essentially solo only should be considered a red flag. 29 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said: Would be an interesting function for sure. But I still struggle to see a use for her cloak arrow in general. As making others invisible isn't super beneficial. And even if it was trying to maintain cloak for someone else just sounds exhausting. Only way I could see it working is if duration was outright removed for her cloak arrow and it instead was used to create pockets of invisibility for people. Additionally you could still stick that to other players, but them attacking with a non silenced weapon would break the cloak. It's nice for those AI ally targets - escorting drones in the Plains is a non-issue for example. But in the rare occasion Ivara appears in a non-solo game, it's nice to be able to throw out cloaks, and nicer that she can do it without having to be next to the recipient. Granted that some of its best uses in that regard were made less relevant because Void Mode Operators can hack and revive without a care, though. 29 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said: No actually I don't really have any arcanes. My build for stealth missions uses around 200% duration and a good amount of efficiency. I forget if I use P flow on it or not. been awhile since I have used ivara let alone done spy missions in a stealth fashion. I feel like if we removed a lot of the extra energy drain sources for prowl it would drastically buff her survivability without making prowl imbalanced. Okay, I admit it's gone either way with me, but my usage has been heavy enough to see both sides of the coin. Mathematically, assuming just prowl with maximum efficiency whilst moving; base is 3 energy per second, reduces to 0.75/sec. You're looking at an orb drop every 33-34 seconds to maintain, which is.. certainly possible, but RNG is what it is. Sometimes you get an orb every 4 kills. Sometimes you feel like you get 3 in a mission. Oh, and without Flow capacity you're sitting on about 5 minutes 40 seconds of walk-time. Maths become screwy if we try to balance off the potential steal-rolls to flatten orb chances against the cheaper non-mobile drain that would go with that. Ultimately that's kind of anecdotal to any individual mission and how the enemy spawn patterns are. Perhaps in a vacuum that sounds fine. But that's if you're only Prowling. The moment the player starts throwing out Bow and Quiver usage, expected reliability plummets without those external factors. Rarely - since it's another layer of randomness - even having Energise can still leave you out to dry if you get few orb drops and they don't care to roll the extra 100. 11 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said: That's a mod that I always found to be useless. Mostly because it's defining trait is adding PunchThru to projectiles. Which is something most of the Projectiles already have either innately or mods on the weapon. The punch through is only a fairly recent addition, at that! It was just the crit chance on successive targets. Without punch-through built on, that was even more laughably incompetent. Still hindered a lot by the energy scale-up though. 11 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said: I know @BlindStalker said this, but it's easier to quote it from your post. I've been promoting Power Strength on Ivara due to how it effects all her powers for over 3 years now. Mostly because the general playerbase build her like they would Loki. Which in turn pigeonholes her into nothing but Spy. I don't really see this changing due to how often People on the forums constantly say use the "best tool" for the job. All that said, I really don't care if more people don't play Ivara. This is something I've said to BlindStalker in convos before. I like that Ivara caters to a more Methodical and Tactical type of players. I love that she has a slightly higher learning curve than most other frames. In truth a learning curve that doesn't exist when using some form of "Common Sense". I admit I have a weakened strength as my main loadout, although I try not to leave it at 40% in case I run into something steal-worthy. Navigator is more useful as a quick and remote control for Quiver arrows, and the Prowl headshot bonus is so background as I've said elsewhere I don't miss it going from 1.4 to 1.3 in the slightest. I do lose out on Artemis on that build, yes. But you don't need any Strength to finisher everything to death because your sleep arrow is cheap, wide-ranged and reliable. Build diversity though. I have the par-strength Steal and middling Artemis loadout and the max-strength Artemis and occasional Navigator loadout for their own purposes. 11 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said: I agree with these two statements. I myself didn't get arcanes until very recently as I just don't need them. They are nice to have but aren't an absolute must to have. I have 1 Arcane energy at base rank. I don't really run into energy issues with Prowl on my 160% Eff/95% Dur general purpose build. That said, I do have all of Zenurik unlocked and that might make a difference. The only time (and I do mean ONLY) I ever have energy issues is during Vampire mode Nightmare missions. Zenurik doesn't matter, which is of course because.. its Orb pickup bonus is also applied as a regen, which the channelling factor invalidates! (And they say it's not a negative effect..) But yes, throw Vampire Mode in with the other myriad "I'm taking sort-of-damage so the game accidentallied me out of my core survival tool" problems in the game. Just today I got annoyed defending a Railjack piece on Europa because it was out in the cold area that.. ticks damage.. and therefore energy. 11 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said: As for Umbra Ivara, LMAO. I laugh because I already know that Ivara can be considered a premier Sentient Hunter without the Umbra label. Her Artemis Bow can already brute force it's way through Sentients adaption ability. Sleep, Noise Arrows, Navigator, and Prowl all still work on them. So what would an Umbra version bring that would help her against Sentients that she doesn't already have. Well other than an Umbra Ivara having a new skin, that's really the only thing I can see it really being. I just had to pick something that wasn't already in progress. I would have said Deluxe, but that thing has been teased already, so 'umbra, whatever' was the next arbitrary 'official alternative'. Just for the sake of needing a visual design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xzorn Posted November 28, 2019 Share Posted November 28, 2019 13 hours ago, BlindStalker said: Thank you for the reply Xzorn, I appreciate you giving us a ballpark idea on Ivara's current state of potential scaling. Has Artemis Bow fallen behind the power curve? Since the bow update kinda. My 170% Power Ivara would be doing 408 base damage per arrow with modded 62% x4.4 Crit. Avg 408 * (1+ ( 4.4 -1) * 0.62 = 1,268. Say 5 out of 7 Arrows land on targets. = 6,340 Avg damage per shot. If Lenz were to hit 5 targets it would do considerably more damage per shot. Base 408 vs Base 660 with higher crit stats but Ivara has that head-shot bonus which does help even it out since Lenz doesn't head-crit. Now we go over to Daikyu at base 700 with modded 85% x4.4 Crit Avg 700 * (1 + 4.4 -1) * 0.85 = 2,723 Avg damage per shot. Daikyu can of course take advantage of those head-crits. In this very basic comparison long as Artemis lands more than 2 arrows it would beat Daikyu in damage per shot but nothing is so simple. Artemis has pretty much no status capacity while Daikyu can easily have 100% status. Apply this to either Viral or Gas and the damage is near double for Viral and even more than for Gas bringing it back to more around 5 of 7 Arrows having to land to compete in damage per shot. So with either conditional of 5+ arrows landing or head-shots in case on Concentrated Arrow in addition to Energy cost and Warframe mod space; I find Artemis bow lacking. This is why I personally mod normal Artemis with Primed Shred to Punch-through most the map and treat it as more of a street sweeper than a hardcore damage source otherwise I Dashwire a room, set up camp and Concentrated Arrow with ~11m radius explosions which is essentially just a Lenz with double radius that can head-crit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)captainlag51 Posted November 28, 2019 Share Posted November 28, 2019 as much as i like looks and cosmetics of all the primes and the newly upcoming ivara prime, one question i want know and ask is when can we see that primes become more then looks and stats as in given a lore and additionally new found abilitys that only primes have that differently separates from regular frames such as a awakening,ascention mode or burst mode what ever maybe name or case of it,just me personally for worth the annoying grind of a prime id like more to it then is a new frame with better looks and stats on all frames unrework and rework to make a new found potential, this just my general thought of mind and question that id like to see be added with or even before the new war update. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)CommanderC2121 Posted November 28, 2019 Share Posted November 28, 2019 Primes will always be “general stat changes” and different visuals. DE has stated that they dont want primes to be that much stronger then normal frames 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zahnrad Posted November 28, 2019 Share Posted November 28, 2019 That and Primes weren't even intended to have superior stats either. It all started with Rhino P having faster sprint speed than regular Rhino if I recall correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)captainlag51 Posted November 28, 2019 Share Posted November 28, 2019 hope that they can reconsider that honestly hope primes be more in someway cause with how RNG, luck and the grind just hope some point the hull of it be more worth the grind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGrimCorsair Posted November 28, 2019 Share Posted November 28, 2019 4 minutes ago, (PS4)captainlag51 said: hope that they can reconsider that honestly hope primes be more in someway cause with how RNG, luck and the grind just hope some point the hull of it be more worth the grind Nah, it'd a terrible friggin' idea for them to do that. Primes are small upgrades worth getting over their base forms and provide the full mastery rating of leveling a frame as it is. They don't need any further incentive to be pursued, especially when it would just lead to the player base constantly hounding players for not using the prime version. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NekroArts Posted November 28, 2019 Share Posted November 28, 2019 (edited) 8 minutes ago, (PS4)captainlag51 said: hope that they can reconsider that honestly hope primes be more in someway cause with how RNG, luck and the grind just hope some point the hull of it be more worth the grind I'm going to go off a limb and say you weren't around when gear-restriction was pressured by some in the community. Edited November 28, 2019 by NekroArts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oreades Posted November 28, 2019 Share Posted November 28, 2019 15 minutes ago, Zahnny said: That and Primes weren't even intended to have superior stats either. It all started with Rhino P having faster sprint speed than regular Rhino if I recall correctly. so primes where the original bandaid Augment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zahnrad Posted November 28, 2019 Share Posted November 28, 2019 5 minutes ago, Oreades said: so primes where the original bandaid Augment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DagoDrakh Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 I like the suggestions but I would be even happy if I could normally run/bulletjump with prowl with minimal energy consumption or maybe a bit more than when Ivara is slowly walking. While staying in place, it should work as it is now. The energy consumption on hit could stay also, but please the mining laser should not reveal us. I'm getting killed even with the stealth arrow active on me while I am not visible using the mining tool. They pinpoint me out from a long distance. A silent mod would be great like what Loki has. Also maybe someone before me corrected the info about the Infiltrator mod but if not, it's not just lasers, you can bypass any detectors without it affecting you or trigger an alarm and I love it. For example the one that sucks out your energy at the doors or the ones in the spy missions on Grineer map where the scanner moves up and down. So don't remove it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Knight Raime Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 4 hours ago, DatDarkOne said: I myself didn't get arcanes until very recently as I just don't need them. They are nice to have but aren't an absolute must to have. I have 1 Arcane energy at base rank. I don't really run into energy issues with Prowl on my 160% Eff/95% Dur general purpose build. That said, I do have all of Zenurik unlocked and that might make a difference. I do have most of zenurik's energy gain benefits. I know arcanes are not really needed outside of super min maxed builds where the build itself is basically overkill. But one day if my interest in the game ever becomes super serious again i'd love to actually go farm for arcanes. Just because besides farming for MR I don't really have much else to do. 2 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said: It's far from the only example, just one on a similar 'does it really matter' paradigm because it is, ultimately, only a fraction of an ability. Ziplines don't see much use whether they're level elements or artificial from Ivara; you should be asking the question of "If all it really does is counter this (inconsistent) drawback, should it be replaced and the drawback simply removed?" Much like Infiltrate in that regard, if you're going to call Dashwires strictly there to offer the mobility Prowl withholds. (I'd still say there are some situational uses for convenient ziplines offering positional advantages and extra anchor-points for problematic parkour sections, though, even without crippled Prowl.) I'm pretty up for having quiver altered significantly regardless of what is or isn't done with prowl. My point doesn't really change either way. I wouldn't say zipline only exists to counteract prowl's slower movement. And that statement doesn't need to be true for my previous statement (prowl being buffed movement making dashwires less valuable,) to ring true either. I'd say a more correct statement would be that zipline enhances rather than fixes. But I think we're arguing semantics here. 2 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said: The quality of those silent weapons is largely irrelevant. It's still an objective limitation that restricts 90% of weapons to either non-usage or mod tax. The Acceltra has even been called 'a better Baza' by some, part of which is because silent weapons do still pay some of their net power budget for that property, overall. Your chosen verbiage and tone implies that going with naturally silent weaponry is some sort of negative. And the only route in logic my mind can take me with that assumption is in regards to the capability with the weapons. SO, if these naturally silent weapons are about as effective as any other weapon in killing efficiently/quickly sans for AoE weapons then I can't see how it would be really considered a limitation in a negative fashion beyond player preference. Regardless of your intent with this specific point I think this is another matter of perspective than objectivity. 2 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said: I'm still yet to see any actual justification for what makes drawbacks necessary. The ability's secondary benefits (in comparison) are not actually all that great. However accessible you find headshots, with sleep arrows, there's too much of a spread in stat requirements in that approach for it to reach the peak output necessary to be a significant factor. You want Efficiency, Duration and Range to make those sleep arrows tag as many units as possible and keep the extra energy expenditure down, you don't get much room left for Strength. It's only a 1+(base*strength) multiplier, remember. You're getting about 230% damage at maximum baked-in strength stats, on headshots alone. You can't max every stat. Something has to yield. The less said about the pickpocket the better. It's clearly just an afterthought to the ability, implicitly taking you out of the fight to wait for the damn thing to do its job. To repeat: Cloak being a toggle, extra headshot damage, and loot capabilities. There really isn't much more I can say here that i've not already said. I'd rather lean into the idea of making her cloak special with extra benefits compared to standard invis, rather than your proposed suggestions with prowl. 2 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said: Our stealth frames can't afford to be immobile. They're already deafened in a way you can't alter settings to fix - which makes grenade death odds even worse - but the snapshot aiming possible at higher enemy levels mean you can be instantly acquired and deleted if you do break that stealth as a squishy target like Ivara. That's why temporary prowl breaks while you're going from point A to point B just don't work. No matter how fast you think you are, that Seeker in the hallway is faster. Other than that, you have the 'no co-op' option of permanent slow-mode. Unsatisfying and DE takes many opportunities to make solo less viable, so having a frame be essentially solo only should be considered a red flag. I don't really have anything specific to address this. I enjoy the design intent of having a slower more methodical stealth frame that has a varied set of tools to fit different situations. There are probably a plethera of ways to improve this specific design intent. But I don't think granting her full mobility is a step in the direction of improvement. 2 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said: It's nice for those AI ally targets - escorting drones in the Plains is a non-issue for example. But in the rare occasion Ivara appears in a non-solo game, it's nice to be able to throw out cloaks, and nicer that she can do it without having to be next to the recipient. Granted that some of its best uses in that regard were made less relevant because Void Mode Operators can hack and revive without a care, though. Yes operators are straight up busted and have broken the game (imo) far more than anything in the game ever has. But that's a topic for a different day. 2 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said: Okay, I admit it's gone either way with me, but my usage has been heavy enough to see both sides of the coin. Mathematically, assuming just prowl with maximum efficiency whilst moving; base is 3 energy per second, reduces to 0.75/sec. You're looking at an orb drop every 33-34 seconds to maintain, which is.. certainly possible, but RNG is what it is. Sometimes you get an orb every 4 kills. Sometimes you feel like you get 3 in a mission. Oh, and without Flow capacity you're sitting on about 5 minutes 40 seconds of walk-time. Maths become screwy if we try to balance off the potential steal-rolls to flatten orb chances against the cheaper non-mobile drain that would go with that. Ultimately that's kind of anecdotal to any individual mission and how the enemy spawn patterns are. Perhaps in a vacuum that sounds fine. But that's if you're only Prowling. The moment the player starts throwing out Bow and Quiver usage, expected reliability plummets without those external factors. Rarely - since it's another layer of randomness - even having Energise can still leave you out to dry if you get few orb drops and they don't care to roll the extra 100. I never seem to have a problem with costs despite the occasional quiver usage. If i'm actually in a mission long enough for her pile of energy to run dry I usually just find a spot and zenurik dash to gain some energy back. then I re prowl and continue on. Strength is really only important if you plan on using her bow and navigator. I never ever use navigator because it's too niche of an ability that costs far too much for it's usage. And the bow is a straight up gimmick that's entirely not needed when normal bows perform much better. If her augment for it was a lot better i'd actually use my artimis bow build. But as it stands I have a solo stealth build and a campy mobile build. The former has good duration and efficiency with a splash of range. The latter has higher range at the cost of some duration so I can sit up on ziplines and sleep enemies running at excavators and other defense related targets. But to close it out here is my list of suggested changes to Ivara should DE make a pass at her: -Roll iva's empowered quiver into base ability -New quiver augment grants Ivara the lowest priority target for enemies. Health and shields continually regen while on zipline. (priority situation to be similar in behavior to using revenant and thralls to distract enemies from attacking fissures in the orb valus.) -Cloak arrow duration removed and base range of ability increased. Now grants perma cloak so long as allies do not attack with a non silenced weapon. -Noise arrow now deafens alerted targets in a disorientated fashion (think banshee's silence situation.) -Can refresh sleep duration by shooting the area of effected targets with another sleep shot. -Leaving zipline increases base movement speed for a brief period of time. -Remove all energy drain effects from Prowl beyond the base drain of the ability. -Base headshot damage bonus buffed from 40% to 70%. When firing artimis bow shots from prowl you get a general damage increase in addition to the headshot damage bonus. More of a bonus damage based on how many of the arrows hit the target. -Prowl's loot functionality is now static. Ivara can loot from multiple targets at once. -Prowl gets base movement speed. sprinting and bullet jumping only temporarily remove her from cloak like firing a non silenced weapon would. -Prowl augment adjustment. Keeps the ignoring laser aspect. Killing already looted enemies has a chance to yield an energy orb. -Artimis bow when firing quiver arrow's drastically reduces the cost of said shots. -Consentrated arrow augment now combines all arrows into a single shot for higher damage. Landing a headshot will cause a non self damaging explosion equal to the damage of the shot. I left navigator and it's augment alone as I do not know much about either the ability or it's augment. I do know that energy cost for using such a thing needs to change. But beyond that I wouldn't know what to do with it in order to make it less niche/gimmicky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)captainlag51 Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 still it just my idea of thought that be nice to have to improve the quality of having a prime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xzorn Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 (edited) Personally if I were to tweak Artemis bow I'd do one of two options. Either make it a global buff for any Bow / X-bow she's using or... Increase base damage per Arrow to 240 from 160. Remove innate multishot status ie each Arrow has base 20% status. Increase base Crit chance to 35% from 25%. Swap Horizontal and Vertical mechanics. Quick shot = Horizontal. Charge = Vertical. Apply innate 1.5x * (Power Strength) multiplier to Charged Shots only (affects Concentrated Arrow). Concentrated Arrow changed from 500 Blast to 500 Heat damage. Replaced forced Impact proc with Heat proc. Concentrated Arrow absolute Crit bonus changed to +25% from +50%. Added +50% absolute Status bonus (on head-shots). This should give Artemis better Horizontal shot performance and considerably better charged vertical (single target) shot damage well as the augment. EDIT: To compare this change simply as possible. Artemis will always be doing 954 base with modded Crit per arrow up from 750 at 100% Power Strength and Charge Shots do 1,431. Added Power Strength like the 170% I used earlier causes normal shots to deal the same damage as 100% Power Strength compared to 1,268 but Charged shots deal 2,432 thanks to a higher (1.5 * 1.7) 2.55x charge multiplier and base damage. This incentivizes aim over spray shots but thanks to the change in status AoE is still improved over the original version in spite of lower base damage at higher Power Strength values. Edited November 29, 2019 by Xzorn 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azamagon Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 (edited) On 2019-11-23 at 10:47 AM, TheLexiConArtist said: snip Excellent, simply excellent! I'd like to point out some things in particular (wether I agreed extra much, don't agreed, or have an idea): Prowl - This ability's parkour/sprint restrictions is what's keeping me away from using her instead of Ash. Yes, just the parkour and sprint-restrictions alone, not even the slowdown. If at the VERY LEAST she would be allowed to parkour and sprint during Prowl, I'd likely main her immediately. Let my wrist rest already! Noise Arrow - Idea: How about renaming it Cricket Arrow and let it do two things; Same "noise" thing as now, but also make it loot all items for Ivara on its AoE-pulse. This gives her a distinct synergy with a big chunk of her kit; Sit on a Dashwire, while Prowling, Navigator a Cricket Arrow to an energy orb and you can sustain her entire kit while being able to keep up the sneaky, sneaky huntress style. Pretty neat huh? (Note; The name could be anything else really, I just wanted to suggest that as it still has a "noise" implication, but is still abstract enough to let it have other very differents effects too, such as the looting power). Dashwire Arrow - Idea: Sometimes I want to get rid of a specific dashwire. How about holding your melee button while on a dashwire = you snap the dashwire. She can't melee from dashwires anyway, so, why not? Concentrated Arrow - Yeah, this one needs major changes. I'd maybe even go a different route with it: Rather than baking all damage into a single arrow, just make the explosion reliable - as the two main "compensating" damage parts of CA is the explosion's base 500 damage (which is affected by Artemis' mods and Strength) and the big critboost - but with different criteria: * Hitting the environment - There would be an added 1 second delay before it explodes, has no critchance bonus, and the base explosion radius is reduced to 4 meters. * Hitting an enemy (wether it's a headshot or not) - The explosion is instant, has the critchance bonus and full explosion radius (7 meters) This makes sure you won't use it (as much) as a spam-willy-nilly grenade launcher, but requires you to actually aim for your targets. Prime Aesthetics and Gear - While I can agreed that being based on jellyfish is very odd, I don't really mind it that much, personally (especially since we can equip base skins and so on, on our Primes). See it more like a "I use the jellyfish to camoflague myself in aquatic endeavours, as I already do so well on land" or something, hehe. Edited November 29, 2019 by Azamagon 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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