With Ivara Prime on the horizon, here is the comprehensive overview of shortfalls that should be investigated and addressed.

[Teridax68]

6 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

HELL NO!!

This is all very nice, but doesn't really explain why the idea is apparently so unworthy of consideration. In practice, this would give Ivara an extra ability slot, and would let her use her currently Exalted weapon at no Energy cost, so what would be the issue?

[DatDarkOne]

5 hours ago, Xzorn said:

This is why I personally mod normal Artemis with Primed Shred to Punch-through most the map

You do know that Artemis Bow can shoot through walls and Doors already without any extra punchthru mods, right?  I've used it to kill enemies on the other side of doors that are locked during Rescue missions.  They show up on Radar. 

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

This is all very nice, but doesn't really explain why the idea is apparently so unworthy of consideration. In practice, this would give Ivara an extra ability slot, and would let her use her currently Exalted weapon at no Energy cost, so what would be the issue?

But you made it an either/or choice of Primary or Artemis. For melee it's not much of an issue.  For Primary, I would lose for the whole mission my ability to snipe (with Bows or Sniper) at long range if I wanted to use Artemis.  That's flexibility I'm just not welling to give up.  I might not use Artemis Bow that much, but when I do use it I want something dead fast even if I have to brute force it. (Sentients and Various Bosses come to mind)  😄

Also why in the world would Ivara need an extra ability slot when she already has 7 powers.  A number that only Vauban can match and no other frame.  As for Artemis using energy, that has never been a problem for me unless I'm using that trash augment Concentrated Arrow.  

Edited November 29, 2019 by DatDarkOne

[DatDarkOne]

19 hours ago, BlindStalker said:

What I'm saying is that I would love mission modes where stealth actually means something. Where going stealthily would actually be warranted or enjoyable, or actually considered a strong enough valid approach to completing a game mode with good rewards. Right now, we can just bum-rush our way through any mission, meandering about however we please since the enemies pose no real threat to us. We can kill things with the snap of our fingers with the right type of builds. There's no valid reason to go a stealth approach in Warframe...

@Xzorn How many years have I been saying this very thing now?  

[Xzorn]

17 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

You do know that Artemis Bow can shoot through walls and Doors already without any extra punchthru mods, right?  I've used it to kill enemies on the other side of doors that are locked during Rescue missions.  They show up on Radar.

 

Yea totally. It's just for 2.2m more and 55% Fire Rate. The base Punch-through will hit 3 Napalms chest level lined up.
With Primed Shred it will go through 5 at chest level and also goes straight through the pillars in the simulacrum.
Shots pretty much go through everything at that point which is the whole street sweeper aspect I use normal Artemis for.

[Xzorn]

20 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

@Xzorn How many years have I been saying this very thing now?  

 

Pfft. Forever.

We've both been missing those old school days where at least it wasn't total lunacy to play that way.
DE just doesn't want to punish players for some reason. Vallis sorta did something for a bonus? Sorta.

[TheLexiConArtist]

(Snipped most of the part where we've exhausted discussion - let disagreements be disagreements there)

5 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Your chosen verbiage and tone implies that going with naturally silent weaponry is some sort of negative.  And the only route in logic my mind can take me with that assumption is in regards to the capability with the weapons.  SO, if these naturally silent weapons are about as effective as any other weapon in killing efficiently/quickly sans for AoE weapons then I can't see how it would be really considered a limitation in a negative fashion beyond player preference.  Regardless of your intent with this specific point I think this is another matter of perspective than objectivity.

It's an inexact science, but balancing things is generally based on a total power 'budget'. In Warframe that's distributed into and affected by numerous factors, and the base differs as MR requirement increases. Silent weaponry then is one of the expenses that has to be weighed against this budget. It may not be an enormous proportion, the weapons may still be functional, but the however-many percentage has been spent on the 'free silence' makes it an implied tax - just like sacrificing mod capacity/slot on Hush - so if it is necessary to have silent weapons, whether it's the mod or a natural facet, you've paid up a portion of potential power.
Also, again, it's a matter of variety if you want it natural - Baza, bows and thrown secondaries are the majority of your options, which amounts to... let's estimate some 15 out of 160+ (unique type) weapons in Primary and Secondary slots. 90% of options denied for the natural stealth.

5 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

To repeat:  Cloak being a toggle, extra headshot damage, and loot capabilities.  There really isn't much more I can say here that i've not already said.  I'd rather lean into the idea of making her cloak special with extra benefits compared to standard invis, rather than your proposed suggestions with prowl.

Toggle supplies its own drawback making it only superior as an AFK tool, accessing the headshot damage is inconsistent or costs more outside of Prowl's own design and the loot is awful. It's not that they don't exist, it's that they're not significant enough (or come with their own implicit counterbalances). Tying into the next statement though:

5 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I don't really have anything specific to address this.  I enjoy the design intent of having a slower more methodical stealth frame that has a varied set of tools to fit different situations.  There are probably a plethera of ways to improve this specific design intent.  But I don't think granting her full mobility is a step in the direction of improvement.

You can choose to be slower for your own enjoyment if you treat Prowl as it currently is. But if you keep her slow and shackled in her obligatory survival state then she's going to be absent most matchmaking. That, and the worries others have expressed about her being called 'overpowered', is why I say 'remove shackles' instead of 'buff a ton to make shackles justified'.

You can't expect to toss dashwires along every tile in the map to compensate, because that's enormous extra cost (and you never know when DE will call the fast-Prowl-movement on the Dashwires a 'bug' like other long-running luxuries have suffered), and without mobility-in-survival, since we're not talking about things like Assimilate being fully immune, or Mesa's Waltz and her overpowering damage output but about a stealth which still leaves you potentially vulnerable, Ivara is not going to be brought into many co-op missions by the general player base.

5 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

But to close it out here is my list of suggested changes to Ivara should DE make a pass at her:

1. -Roll iva's empowered quiver into base ability
2. -New quiver augment grants Ivara the lowest priority target for enemies.  Health and shields continually regen while on zipline. (priority situation to be similar in behavior to using revenant and thralls to distract enemies from attacking fissures in the orb valus.)
3. -Cloak arrow duration removed and base range of ability increased.  Now grants perma cloak so long as allies do not attack with a non silenced weapon.
4. -Noise arrow now deafens alerted targets in a disorientated fashion (think banshee's silence situation.)
5. -Can refresh sleep duration by shooting the area of effected targets with another sleep shot.
6. -Leaving zipline increases base movement speed for a brief period of time.
7. -Remove all energy drain effects from Prowl beyond the base drain of the ability.
8. -Base headshot damage bonus buffed from 40% to 70%.  When firing artimis bow shots from prowl you get a general damage increase in addition to the headshot damage bonus.  More of a bonus damage based on how many of the arrows hit the target.
9. -Prowl's loot functionality is now static.  Ivara can loot from multiple targets at once.
10. -Prowl gets base movement speed.  sprinting and bullet jumping only temporarily remove her from cloak like firing a non silenced weapon would.
11. -Prowl augment adjustment.  Keeps the ignoring laser aspect.  Killing already looted enemies has a chance to yield an energy orb.
12. -Artimis bow when firing quiver arrow's drastically reduces the cost of said shots.
13. -Consentrated arrow augment now combines all arrows into a single shot for higher damage.  Landing a headshot will cause a non self damaging explosion equal to the damage of the shot.

Coloured up to my opinions.

1. Rolling in Empowered Quiver (and giving another on top) feels like it could be too much complication for one ability.
2. De-prioritising Ivara (maybe as part of her passive outright) might be nice to offset co-op issues with necessary exposure.
3. There are times I use Cloak Arrow strictly because I can shoot loud things in there (albeit mostly if I made a mistake in my loadout or am Randomising), so I don't think I like that. Also might be considered OP for AI targets - take the sortie defense operative's guns away and one arrow essentially wins the mission?
4. Anything for Noise Arrow is good.
5. Refreshing Sleep would actually be really damn useful for those times when more enemies swarm in and you have to start juggling the different timings even on groups in that one area.
6. I have no strong opinion on Zipline Boost.
7. We agree on removing the energy shackles of Prowl, at least. _{Arc Traps plague me no more!}
8. The damage buffs in prowl might-be-nice but see earlier comment about risking external complaints with buffs. Also leaves the A to B and 'two immobile stealths' issue.
9. Fixes to awful pickpocketing gameplay are good.
10. No-slowing in Prowl at baseline is a positive step, but even brief exposure is enough to get tagged by Little Johnny Seeker with his hacked Kraken and die instantaneously. How about we flip that script? Instead of brief exposure on parkour/gunfire directly, make it a lingering stealth - if you keep firing or hard Parkouring, you are revealed after.. something like 3 seconds * Duration? Re-stealthing is instant on ceasing loud gunfire, landing or wall-running/latching, but to refresh the 'grace timer' you have to spend a few seconds longer being a good sneaky girl and using non-violating weapons and movement. This would allow quick re-positioning strategies and let Ivara keep up a little better without being so immediately at risk.
11. Some people do really like the anti-barrier Prowl (for whatever reason, maybe they bought her instead of Spied for her) so I suppose if it's not replaced wholesale, adding some other benefit for actual gameplay is a step forwards.
12. The 'Redline rule' for Quiver shots? I like. It makes sense - Quiver has to partially summon the Artemis Bow to shoot an arrow, so if it's out already it's cheaper to use them. Only problem is that Artemis isn't duration limited, so you pay a small tax pulling it out then it's cheap Quiver forever. On the other hand it does restrict you to A-Bow and Melee, so maybe that's enough in trade?
13. We agree on Concentrated Arrow.

[Birdframe_Prime]

11 hours ago, (PS4)captainlag51 said:

still it just my idea of thought that be nice to have to improve the quality of having a prime.

Parallel evolution of ideas is a bugger to be fair. The reason you got the response you did is because you’re customer 42,069 in the list of people that have asked this question before, and more than that it’s a question that DE already answered.

Warframes won’t ever change what the abilities are or do for their Primes, because the policy is that if you pick up an Excal, mod it the same way any other player has, then it performs the same way that those other Excal players do.

There is one exception; the Umbra style frames. Not every frame will get one, but DE have confirmed that there will be more. You can expect interesting mechanics that make them good at dealing with Sentients, different lore, visual changes beyond the Prime style and so on. Maybe even quests, who knows?

[Teridax68]

14 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

But you made it an either/or choice of Primary or Artemis. For melee it's not much of an issue.  For Primary, I would lose for the whole mission my ability to snipe (with Bows or Sniper) at long range if I wanted to use Artemis.  That's flexibility I'm just not welling to give up.  I might not use Artemis Bow that much, but when I do use it I want something dead fast even if I have to brute force it. (Sentients and Various Bosses come to mind)  😄

Do you not use secondary weapons? Also, how would the Artemis Bow be unable to snipe if you'd be able to naturally toggle between its spread and single-shot versions?

Quote

Also why in the world would Ivara need an extra ability slot when she already has 7 powers.  A number that only Vauban can match and no other frame.

Because most of those powers are annoying to use and/or confined to sub-abilities? Vauban has the same problem with Minelayer, but at least his 4 isn't a weapon put in his kit as filler.

Quote

As for Artemis using energy, that has never been a problem for me unless I'm using that trash augment Concentrated Arrow.  

Sure, but it's still a needless cost for what is ultimately just a bow, as with almost any other Exalted weapon these days.

[(PSN)captainlag51]

if the umbra style of frame is goin be like some sort of ascention frame that be nice just wish primes were worth more of a grind with quality ya know anyways thank ya @Birdframe_prime 

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

8 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

(Snipped most of the part where we've exhausted discussion - let disagreements be disagreements there)

It's an inexact science, but balancing things is generally based on a total power 'budget'. In Warframe that's distributed into and affected by numerous factors, and the base differs as MR requirement increases. Silent weaponry then is one of the expenses that has to be weighed against this budget. It may not be an enormous proportion, the weapons may still be functional, but the however-many percentage has been spent on the 'free silence' makes it an implied tax - just like sacrificing mod capacity/slot on Hush - so if it is necessary to have silent weapons, whether it's the mod or a natural facet, you've paid up a portion of potential power.
Also, again, it's a matter of variety if you want it natural - Baza, bows and thrown secondaries are the majority of your options, which amounts to... let's estimate some 15 out of 160+ (unique type) weapons in Primary and Secondary slots. 90% of options denied for the natural stealth.

I...guess I don't really have more to add here.  Sorry.  I just don't see it as a big deal.

8 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Toggle supplies its own drawback making it only superior as an AFK tool, accessing the headshot damage is inconsistent or costs more outside of Prowl's own design and the loot is awful. It's not that they don't exist, it's that they're not significant enough (or come with their own implicit counterbalances). Tying into the next statement though:

 

You can choose to be slower for your own enjoyment if you treat Prowl as it currently is. But if you keep her slow and shackled in her obligatory survival state then she's going to be absent most matchmaking. That, and the worries others have expressed about her being called 'overpowered', is why I say 'remove shackles' instead of 'buff a ton to make shackles justified'.

And we seem to agree on removing most of those shackles.  We seem to be fine with buffing her benefits as well.  It seems the only thing we disagree on with prowl is how much mobility she should get while in prowl.  I don't think either of us will budge on this.

8 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

You can't expect to toss dashwires along every tile in the map to compensate, because that's enormous extra cost (and you never know when DE will call the fast-Prowl-movement on the Dashwires a 'bug' like other long-running luxuries have suffered), and without mobility-in-survival, since we're not talking about things like Assimilate being fully immune, or Mesa's Waltz and her overpowering damage output but about a stealth which still leaves you potentially vulnerable, Ivara is not going to be brought into many co-op missions by the general player base.

I mean that's a cute statement but i'm pretty sure the faster movement on arrows was mentioned as an intended thing for her.  This is why I suggested giving her a base movement speed in prowl and a small movement speed buff whenever you hop off a zipline.  I think these plus the ability to roll repeatedly give her enough movement.  My fear of giving her full mobility while in prowl really just falls down to power creep of sorts.  If she could run, slide, and bullet jump while staying completely invisible i'd only ever take her for stealth missions.  Currently I pick between loki and wisp.  Loki if I want to be lazy.  Wisp if I want the extra survivability, movement, and situational invisibility.  Ivara is my go to choice if I want to steal things while i'm scanning things for the simulacrum.  Just being able to turn my invisibility on at the start of a mission and never having to worry about it ever again would be enough for me to never consider other options even if other "stealth mechanic" having frames were situationaly better in some instances.

8 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Coloured up to my opinions.

1. Rolling in Empowered Quiver (and giving another on top) feels like it could be too much complication for one ability.
2. De-prioritising Ivara (maybe as part of her passive outright) might be nice to offset co-op issues with necessary exposure.
3. There are times I use Cloak Arrow strictly because I can shoot loud things in there (albeit mostly if I made a mistake in my loadout or am Randomising), so I don't think I like that. Also might be considered OP for AI targets - take the sortie defense operative's guns away and one arrow essentially wins the mission?
4. Anything for Noise Arrow is good.
5. Refreshing Sleep would actually be really damn useful for those times when more enemies swarm in and you have to start juggling the different timings even on groups in that one area.
6. I have no strong opinion on Zipline Boost.
7. We agree on removing the energy shackles of Prowl, at least. _{Arc Traps plague me no more!}
8. The damage buffs in prowl might-be-nice but see earlier comment about risking external complaints with buffs. Also leaves the A to B and 'two immobile stealths' issue.
9. Fixes to awful pickpocketing gameplay are good.
10. No-slowing in Prowl at baseline is a positive step, but even brief exposure is enough to get tagged by Little Johnny Seeker with his hacked Kraken and die instantaneously. How about we flip that script? Instead of brief exposure on parkour/gunfire directly, make it a lingering stealth - if you keep firing or hard Parkouring, you are revealed after.. something like 3 seconds * Duration? Re-stealthing is instant on ceasing loud gunfire, landing or wall-running/latching, but to refresh the 'grace timer' you have to spend a few seconds longer being a good sneaky girl and using non-violating weapons and movement. This would allow quick re-positioning strategies and let Ivara keep up a little better without being so immediately at risk.
11. Some people do really like the anti-barrier Prowl (for whatever reason, maybe they bought her instead of Spied for her) so I suppose if it's not replaced wholesale, adding some other benefit for actual gameplay is a step forwards.
12. The 'Redline rule' for Quiver shots? I like. It makes sense - Quiver has to partially summon the Artemis Bow to shoot an arrow, so if it's out already it's cheaper to use them. Only problem is that Artemis isn't duration limited, so you pay a small tax pulling it out then it's cheap Quiver forever. On the other hand it does restrict you to A-Bow and Melee, so maybe that's enough in trade?
13. We agree on Concentrated Arrow.

1. I don't think it would be complicated at all.  But if you're attempting to say you think it's too much stuff for DE to expect to change about one ability I could kind of see that.  But also we've seen extensive reworks before.  Though if it is too complicated i'm fine with the low priority aspect  being added to her passive and leaving the current augment alone.
2. That is a fair point.  I didn't consider cloaking defense targets.  The main idea here is I don't enjoy having to constantly refresh a cloak arrow for someone.  Maybe we can go half way.  Areas cloaked by the arrow are not tied to duration and shooting inside them doesn't break the cloak.  Shooting another person/defense target does have a duration but firing doesn't break the cloak.
3. If you're referring to her being overbuffed to the point of people crying about her i'm just going to have to pass on that.  Can you elaborate further on the a to b and two immobile stealth part please.
4. While I don't believe I have a huge issue with your prowl modifications to my idea I feel like mechanically that's probably going to be more complex for DE than the simple changes i've suggested.  Though credit where it's due I was thinking about different methods of effecting how long it takes to recloak after temp exposing yourself.  It is an interesting idea if nothing else.
5. Yeah that's kind of the idea.  cheaper usage all around but you're stuck using the artimis bow.  And buffs with the bow in other areas to make it so the bow itself doesn't feel like a huge nerf for attempting to synergize her kit.

[TheLexiConArtist]

9 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I...guess I don't really have more to add here.  Sorry.  I just don't see it as a big deal.

Doesn't have to be a big deal, we're just acknowledging it as some measure of drawback. It's just something other stealthers don't need to pay for, outside of threats which only require the sound cue to pinpoint and attack targets.

12 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I mean that's a cute statement but i'm pretty sure the faster movement on arrows was mentioned as an intended thing for her.  This is why I suggested giving her a base movement speed in prowl and a small movement speed buff whenever you hop off a zipline.  I think these plus the ability to roll repeatedly give her enough movement.  My fear of giving her full mobility while in prowl really just falls down to power creep of sorts.  If she could run, slide, and bullet jump while staying completely invisible i'd only ever take her for stealth missions.  Currently I pick between loki and wisp.  Loki if I want to be lazy.  Wisp if I want the extra survivability, movement, and situational invisibility.  Ivara is my go to choice if I want to steal things while i'm scanning things for the simulacrum.  Just being able to turn my invisibility on at the start of a mission and never having to worry about it ever again would be enough for me to never consider other options even if other "stealth mechanic" having frames were situationaly better in some instances.

I decided to do a test while I was out on my daily farm this morning. It's fairly anecdotal, but I was out on the Vallis and I picked paths between two clear scenery points - ends of fencing, lampposts etc - and tested 'natural mobility' and Ivara's best current option purely within Prowl itself, rolling/bunnyhopping along the path. There's a distinct difference depending on the elevations for Prowl. I found going uphill was easier because I would land sooner from the roll-hop sequence, thus allowing me to reduce downtime where roll momentum is lost.

On average, the time difference between the full parkour and Prowlkour was a factor of approximately 2 to 3 times (depending on terrain). That's a pretty significant difference, and although it was across open ground, lack of a bullet jump would likely make matters worse in tileset missions where it's less inclines and more sheer step changes.

I suppose then, the difference between a completely unencumbered Ivara and others is that your longer missions would necessitate Ivara to actively kill or still slow down to steal so that energy orbs could keep her topped up. In other situations, basic energy regen makes Loki etc. the superior 'pacifist option' when you just want to go along to non-combat objectives, at the cost of occasionally refreshing the stealth.

29 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

1. I don't think it would be complicated at all.  But if you're attempting to say you think it's too much stuff for DE to expect to change about one ability I could kind of see that.  But also we've seen extensive reworks before.  Though if it is too complicated i'm fine with the low priority aspect  being added to her passive and leaving the current augment alone.
2. That is a fair point.  I didn't consider cloaking defense targets.  The main idea here is I don't enjoy having to constantly refresh a cloak arrow for someone.  Maybe we can go half way.  Areas cloaked by the arrow are not tied to duration and shooting inside them doesn't break the cloak.  Shooting another person/defense target does have a duration but firing doesn't break the cloak.
3. If you're referring to her being overbuffed to the point of people crying about her i'm just going to have to pass on that.  Can you elaborate further on the a to b and two immobile stealth part please.
4. While I don't believe I have a huge issue with your prowl modifications to my idea I feel like mechanically that's probably going to be more complex for DE than the simple changes i've suggested.  Though credit where it's due I was thinking about different methods of effecting how long it takes to recloak after temp exposing yourself.  It is an interesting idea if nothing else.
5. Yeah that's kind of the idea.  cheaper usage all around but you're stuck using the artimis bow.  And buffs with the bow in other areas to make it so the bow itself doesn't feel like a huge nerf for attempting to synergize her kit.

1. Just consider the state of the ability pane with baked-in Empowered Quiver plus a separate additional augment to display. Too much. Ivara already fails to display crucial Prowl cost information (and for a long time, the chance-to-fail on steals wasn't even shown!) 
   Also, it might be considered 'too powerful' since Quiver is generally in a stronger spot than, say, Vauban's mines. Both have their favoured choices in the set, but you can build stronger results purely targeting Quiver than a Vauban player could purely targeting Minelayer, I think.
2. DE doesn't do explicit 'permanent abilities' very often. Saryn's reworked Spores, I believe, were a noteworthy breaking of that ground - definitely the most prominent example. I just have doubts it'd pass the dev judgement.
3. People would judge new bonuses more harshly than removal of limitations, I figure. The 'point A to point B' problem is that one Seeker that seems to pop you the instant you're visible in his line of sight - being why a brief instant reveal is not acceptable for such a soft target. Two immobile stealths is the lacking diversity between using Cloaks and Prowl instead of allowing one to shine in movement (Prowl) while the other is stronger when in place (Cloak, because energy can regenerate and allies also benefit).
4. I tried to offer something that would keep some possible penalty to indelicate Prowling, while not punishing an occasional mis-press or necessary jump with the risk of instant obliteration at higher enemy levels. It's a more forgiving middle ground between our 'slow Ivara' and 'free Ivara' preferences.
5. I find the bow pretty beefy when built for, but agree sometimes it can definitely feel like a 'one or the other' situation for the rest of the kit. I'm unsure whether restriction of guns is enough of a caveat to this now that we can, at least, still swap into melee. Maybe the 'half cost' breakpoint could be lessened to two-thirds if it's more balance friendly. But yes, it definitely makes visual and logical sense with the abilities as they are.

[Birdframe_Prime]

6 hours ago, (PS4)captainlag51 said:

if the umbra style of frame is goin be like some sort of ascention frame

Uhhhh, no, they're not. Sorry to pop that bubble.

What I meant by that is that the Umbra style, such as Excalibur Umbra, are each considered 'unique' frames in the lore. If they follow the example of Excal's version, they may have additional features, such as an additional passive to make them unique and/or additional functions on their abilities that give them bonus effects against the Sentient enemies that are going to become prevalent in The New War update.

Excal Umbra has the exact same stats as Excalibur Prime, a secondary passive and his Radial Blind has a reskin as Radial Howl that also strips the 'resistances' of Sentient enemies. That's the extent of it. The frame also has a quest, lore, and is visually distinct from both Excal and Excal Prime.

As it is, though, Primes are sometimes legitimately more easy to farm than their regular versions. For example Ash Prime is out of the Vault right now, and there are dedicated places to pick up the relics that drop him, meaning that you can actually go to a specific set of locations to farm up relics, then go on runs with other people from Recruiting or your own groups to gain him in a pretty reliable fashion. Meanwhile the only way to farm his regular version is through occasional drops on enemies that appear only infrequently in the wild; the Grineer Manic. Just the base Manic, too, not the Drekar version that appears on the Sea Lab tiles, so you have to get them to spawn in other high-level Grineer missions instead.

Ivara Prime will, guaranteed, be easier to get than Ivara because the base frame requires farming through Spy missions at low, medium and high tier (getting all three vaults each time) until you RNG her parts with only one chance per run (instead of the potential 4 chances per run you get from Relic runs). The same can be said for Harrow, Nidus and Octavia, three more frames that have rather strange acquisition methods.

I mean, when it comes down to it, Primes literally are supposed to be the shiny skin for your frame, the bonus stats already are supposed to be the reward for the more specific grind since they can give the frame more survivability overall.

While I can understand the desire to make them actually be better than the base frames... even the Umbral ones are going to be only marginal upgrades due to their functions against one of the more 'difficult' factions.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

3 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

 

I decided to do a test while I was out on my daily farm this morning. It's fairly anecdotal, but I was out on the Vallis and I picked paths between two clear scenery points - ends of fencing, lampposts etc - and tested 'natural mobility' and Ivara's best current option purely within Prowl itself, rolling/bunnyhopping along the path. There's a distinct difference depending on the elevations for Prowl. I found going uphill was easier because I would land sooner from the roll-hop sequence, thus allowing me to reduce downtime where roll momentum is lost.

On average, the time difference between the full parkour and Prowlkour was a factor of approximately 2 to 3 times (depending on terrain). That's a pretty significant difference, and although it was across open ground, lack of a bullet jump would likely make matters worse in tileset missions where it's less inclines and more sheer step changes.

I gotta be honest with you i've never pushed bunny hopping into my prowl play.  I have always just did standard on the ground rolling only jump into roll when needing to clear a short gap.  (and well bullet jumping when that was possible pre bug fix.)  Does it really make that huge of a difference if I add hopping into the rolling?

3 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

I suppose then, the difference between a completely unencumbered Ivara and others is that your longer missions would necessitate Ivara to actively kill or still slow down to steal so that energy orbs could keep her topped up. In other situations, basic energy regen makes Loki etc. the superior 'pacifist option' when you just want to go along to non-combat objectives, at the cost of occasionally refreshing the stealth.

I guess we're just of different mindsets then.  As I highly value toggle as a mechanic.  So it would simply be my go to for any stealth related stuff even if other options might be more efficient in other areas.  TBH i'd probably not even be using loki for stealth at all if his stealth augment/str being a dump stat wasn't a thing.  I currently really prefer Wisp with my fulmin for any speedy stealthy stuff.  I've always used ivara for pick pocketing, easy scanning, and weird stuff like sleeping a whole tileset as a solo for objectives.  I've never really used her for much beyond utility things.

3 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

1. Just consider the state of the ability pane with baked-in Empowered Quiver plus a separate additional augment to display. Too much. Ivara already fails to display crucial Prowl cost information (and for a long time, the chance-to-fail on steals wasn't even shown!) 
   Also, it might be considered 'too powerful' since Quiver is generally in a stronger spot than, say, Vauban's mines. Both have their favoured choices in the set, but you can build stronger results purely targeting Quiver than a Vauban player could purely targeting Minelayer, I think.
2. DE doesn't do explicit 'permanent abilities' very often. Saryn's reworked Spores, I believe, were a noteworthy breaking of that ground - definitely the most prominent example. I just have doubts it'd pass the dev judgement.
3. People would judge new bonuses more harshly than removal of limitations, I figure. The 'point A to point B' problem is that one Seeker that seems to pop you the instant you're visible in his line of sight - being why a brief instant reveal is not acceptable for such a soft target. Two immobile stealths is the lacking diversity between using Cloaks and Prowl instead of allowing one to shine in movement (Prowl) while the other is stronger when in place (Cloak, because energy can regenerate and allies also benefit).
4. I tried to offer something that would keep some possible penalty to indelicate Prowling, while not punishing an occasional mis-press or necessary jump with the risk of instant obliteration at higher enemy levels. It's a more forgiving middle ground between our 'slow Ivara' and 'free Ivara' preferences.
5. I find the bow pretty beefy when built for, but agree sometimes it can definitely feel like a 'one or the other' situation for the rest of the kit. I'm unsure whether restriction of guns is enough of a caveat to this now that we can, at least, still swap into melee. Maybe the 'half cost' breakpoint could be lessened to two-thirds if it's more balance friendly. But yes, it definitely makes visual and logical sense with the abilities as they are.

1. Ah true.  The UI can be rather messy as is when you have other buffer frames in the mix.  More constant buffs like that might be an eye sore.  And yeah current minelayer there isn't much to build for beyond tesla bank which doesn't need much investment.  I suppose there's the damage buff.  But it requires a lot of power strength and good duration to go for.
2. Potentially there exists a more elegant solution for my perceived problem, I just don't use it as is purely because up keep abilities in most games are usually a button to create anxiety for myself.  It's literally the only reason why I don't play a frame like Octavia.
3. Hm.  I can see why you'd like a slower revealing penalty for prowl then.  As for the differentiation thing I feel like if prowl was meant to be a movement focused version of stealth DE would have made it the center of attention in her kit rather than it being overly focused on as is due to her lack of survivability.  Not that I would be against a stalking frame that would be like this.  But I feel people would go the ember route where they might as well make a new frame rather than change ivara to fit that.
4. I suppose.  But I think the finer details of this concept needs a bit more polishing.

[DatDarkOne]

8 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Do you not use secondary weapons? Also, how would the Artemis Bow be unable to snipe if you'd be able to naturally toggle between its spread and single-shot versions?

There's only one secondary that allows for true long range sniping.  Notice I said only one.  

8 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Because most of those powers are annoying to use and/or confined to sub-abilities? Vauban has the same problem with Minelayer, but at least his 4 isn't a weapon put in his kit as filler.

Honestly, this one just sounds like a preference than a legit reason, but I won't knock it.  😄  

[TheLexiConArtist]

30 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I gotta be honest with you i've never pushed bunny hopping into my prowl play.  I have always just did standard on the ground rolling only jump into roll when needing to clear a short gap.  (and well bullet jumping when that was possible pre bug fix.)  Does it really make that huge of a difference if I add hopping into the rolling?

It's mostly in the double-jump. In pure rolling you only have the direct movement of the action, but there's some physics shenanigan that adds/maintains momentum when doing it in conjunction with those little hops, where normal rolling has you slowing back down during the animation's recovery time. Technically the absolute fastest might be in back-dodging, but that's unrealistic to use as the measure of constant movement. You're going to want to look where you're going sometimes.

(The rest we've pretty much reached our best conclusions on, just wanted to clarify that since you asked.)

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

7 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

It's mostly in the double-jump. In pure rolling you only have the direct movement of the action, but there's some physics shenanigan that adds/maintains momentum when doing it in conjunction with those little hops, where normal rolling has you slowing back down during the animation's recovery time. Technically the absolute fastest might be in back-dodging, but that's unrealistic to use as the measure of constant movement. You're going to want to look where you're going sometimes.

(The rest we've pretty much reached our best conclusions on, just wanted to clarify that since you asked.)

So double jump->roll->double jump->roll?

[DatDarkOne]

4 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

and for a long time, the chance-to-fail on steals wasn't even shown!

Actually, this one has been known for awhile now.  Well, to be honest I figured it out after first finding out it wasn't guaranteed under 100% PS. The steal chance percentage is directly represented in the Power Strength up to 100.  So a PS of 95% would be a steal chance of 95%.  As noted in the Wiki I've included below:

Has a 100% chance to drop an item from an enemy if the Ability Strength is 100% or above; reducing the Ability Strength reduces the chance for an item to drop equal to that of the Ability Strength (40% Ability Strength has a 40% chance of dropping an item). If the attempt was unsuccessful, it will attempt to try again.

Now if you meant showing that directly in game, then there are lots of abilities that didn't show nuanced stats in game.  For example like how Ember's old WoF didn't show that it had a hard limit of only 5 targets. 😄  

Edited November 29, 2019 by DatDarkOne

[Chaemyerelis]

On 2019-11-26 at 4:20 PM, Ichsuisme said:

Ivara's strong and she's in a good place. I do all my arbitration with her, and only her. Most importantly, to me at least, Ivara is one of the few frames in the game that I consistently switch between builds, depending on how I'd like to play. For example, when I take my Vauban, gara, baruuk, or whoever, I really just stick to my one-size-fits-all build; but with Ivara, I've got a range of options.

Unless it's a capture, exterminate, or other mobile mission, I always use my dashwires. I have no issues using them. They are great. Cloak and sleep arrows are also great.

Ok, we agree on this. Noise is pretty much pointless. It needs a secondary effect -- maybe enemies could show up on the map like Banshee's sonar. I don't need a game-changing buff, but I need a reason to use it. In fact, I can't remember the last time I used noise arrow.

 

Navigator is a mess. I don't like the skill, it really does have awful controls. I know it's the key to Eidolon hunts with Ivara, but in all other missions it's just too messy to use & the flight duration is a pain, especially since it takes me awhile to actually hit anything. And if I'm going to spend the time driving a projectile around, I need it to feel worth it. I need more than raw, pointless, over-kill damage.

Prowl is a good skill. As long as you have energy, you can stay in stealth and energy isn't super difficult to keep up. The movement restrictions are unique and I actually like them -- playing Ivara and relying on smart jumping and roll dodging as made me a better player. I would be sad to have those movement restrictions lifted, I want them to stay. You mentioned the noise issue with prowl but now that we have weapon exilus slots, prowl was buffed; although even before these exilus slots, I wasn't struggling with this. Before, I just modded for silence or used a innately silent weapon. Energy being drained on movement, receiving damage, and melee kills never felt great. Those costs should definitely be removed. Lastly, given Ivara's diverse build choice, I don't think the steal chance shouldn't be tied to power strength.

Her Artemis bow is fine. It's strong and I like the charge level determining the angle of the shot. My one note to give is that the other exalted weapons feel stronger. The augment for this on the other hand is terrible.

Like @DatDarkOne said, you nailed it here. It's a bad mod. Sleep arrow can help with head shots since enemies won't be moving, but even that takes too long to set up. I just end up frustrated and wasting my time. I can kill enemies quicker without the mod. The augment should just be a guaranteed lenz-type shot without the lenz's delay.

 

What are the chances that DE tweaks her just a little for her prime release?

I'm looking for some arbitration builds for ivara. Any build recommendations? 

[TheLexiConArtist]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

So double jump->roll->double jump->roll?

Something like that. It's really janky in practice but I'm sure it generally works out faster, when the air-time doesn't last too long. Just rolling at least feels smoother and steadier, but I was going for fastest, not comfort.

47 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Actually, this one has been known for awhile now.  Well, to be honest I figured it out after first finding out it wasn't guaranteed under 100% PS. The steal chance percentage is directly represented in the Power Strength up to 100.  So a PS of 95% would be a steal chance of 95%.  As noted in the Wiki I've included below:

Has a 100% chance to drop an item from an enemy if the Ability Strength is 100% or above; reducing the Ability Strength reduces the chance for an item to drop equal to that of the Ability Strength (40% Ability Strength has a 40% chance of dropping an item). If the attempt was unsuccessful, it will attempt to try again.

Now if you meant showing that directly in game, then there are lots of abilities that didn't show nuanced stats in game.  For example like how Ember's old WoF didn't show that it had a hard limit of only 5 targets. 😄  

I meant in the ability stats readout - along with the 3 out of 4 energy cost factors., there was no 'steal chance' for a long time. Wiki lists all of them and it's not hard to figure out the proportion, but still, penalties (especially those caused exclusively by the player's build) have no business being hidden out of the stats pane.

Oh, and Ember's WoF wasn't just 5 concurrent targets. It was 5 on the initial cast, then only 3 per subsequent tick for the duration. I know that one all too well. Nothing like those times you were standing near a couple invulnerable (but still 'valid') targets and having your ability just... wasting energy making a few grey zeroes appear.

[DatDarkOne]

15 minutes ago, Chaemyerelis said:

I'm looking for some arbitration builds for ivara. Any build recommendations? 

Now this question is very interesting.  I say this because I took my normal general purpose Ivara build (the one that keeps Infiltrate installed and high PS) into an Arbitration that had 300% strength boost to Ivara.  My Prowl speed was so fast and Headshot multiplier so high that it was almost stupid to not be in it at all times.  

That said, for Arbies my recommendation would be to mod Efficiency as high as possible (duh).  Followed by Duration and range to get nice Sleep Arrow coverage.  I say sleep arrow because there WILL come a time in Arbies that you will need crowd control to help when the Drones appear.  

Who long you stay and type of mission will determine which Primary/secondary weapons you choose.  For short runs, I will use Arca Plasmor just to make the drones easier to hit quickly.  For longer runs where the enemies start getting in the 100's, another weapon would more than likely work out better.  

I have had successful longer survival runs using a sniper such as the Rubico Prime equipped with Target Acquired and the Rakta Cernos.  Only those could pose some trouble with taking out the drones quickly depending on how good your aim and target acquisition is.  

1 minute ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

penalties (especially those caused exclusively by the player's build)

Mwuhahahahahahahaha!!!  THIS is why I always advocate testing stuff in actual gameplay.  It is exactly why I have my two Ivara builds the way I do.  The High Efficiency/Power Strength Tenchu Assassin (general purpose) build and the high Enemy and Loot Radar of my Plains Stalker build for Open world maps.  For the last one I got tired of enemies from 100m away taking shots at me while I was fishing.  😄  

It's also why whenever I show my builds that ALWAYS say to use them as a guide for creating your own build so the person will understand the WHY of how it works.  Just copying a build without knowing why it works for that person doesn't mean that it will work the same for you.  

[(NSW)Sk0rp1on]

I really disagree about prowl.

If you need mobility, just bullet jump out of stealth and recast it on the way down. I think that’s fun. Feels like being Gray Fox.

And sure, when you make explicit how energy drains during prowl it sounds bad and complicated, except that you can stay invisible basically forever if you use the right mods. 

I genuinely don’t get why people want Ivarras stealth to be exactly like Ash’s and Loki’s. Between the 3 of them there’s a good spectrum of stealth abilities that are all different levels of duration, mobility and offense.

[Teridax68]

7 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

There's only one secondary that allows for true long range sniping.  Notice I said only one.  

But wouldn't it be the opposite problem if Artemis Bow had a sniping mode via a Concentrated Arrow toggle, though? You wouldn't need a dedicated sniping secondary, you'd need a secondary that'd complement a weapon capable of both mid- and long-range fighting, which isn't that hard to find.

[DatDarkOne]

51 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

But wouldn't it be the opposite problem if Artemis Bow had a sniping mode via a Concentrated Arrow toggle, though?

I've already stated my opinion on that PoS augment Concentrated Arrow.  If they were to make it an actual CONCENTRATED Arrow, then I might change my mind.  But the chances of DE doing that is about as likely as me walking on the Moon.  

[Kouden]

On 2019-11-23 at 10:47 AM, TheLexiConArtist said:

Ivara has been a favourite of mine since her introduction years ago. When new content drops, my first choice of approach, invariably, goes back to her. Rathuum, Eidolons, on and on. Now, considering usage data for Warframes was displayed on the recent Devstream 133, one thing I noticed was a near-complete absence of Ivara's key colour where it should be on the graph.

So Ivara has many problems. Problems that stop most people extensively playing her. However, this doesn't mean that she is fundamentally bad, or in dire need of a rework - no. Her real enthusiasts come to find she's functional, even powerful, but it comes in spite of herself and the many drawbacks Ivara suffers in core gameplay and kit functionality.

Here I seek to highlight as many key points as possible, as I understand them. With those, we can dive into the realities of Ivara's kit - and the coming Ivara Prime Access - to diagnose what does not work and, ideally, to suggest solutions that can be explored to rectify the issues.

Overview

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-Theme

Ivara, the huntress. Ivara - named after a legendary archer, and with name etymology that translates to 'Tree Warrior', draws design inspiration as a forest-dwelling, stealthy huntress-come-assassin. Visual design reflects this by evoking both Tree Frog colouration - particularly notable examples being the vibrant and toxic Poison Dart Frogs - and a kit direction involving Stealth, Bows, and creative utilities to engage targets at distance and without alerting them.

This is followed by her core cosmetics. The Salix Syandana evokes the cocoon - such as that used for chrysalis, hanging safely from foliage until the creature within is ready to emerge - and the Loxley Helmet which, obviously, bears the namesake of a certain famed woodland bowman of legend.

-Gameplay Identity

Ivara is ranked amongst the weakest Warframes in the game for actual survivability in combat. Consequently, her core gameplay identity is to circumvent combat with superior utility (such as crowd control) and stealth. However, due to her huntress and bowmaster roots, this doesn't leave Ivara's identity in the same space as Loki, whose trickster themes see him into a purer supportive/misdirection identity with no direct offensive abilities like Ivara's exalted Bow, and supporting damage buffs present in her kit.

Ivara also has two sub-identities to explore: That of a looting frame (in very specific circumstances, explained more in Abilities/Prowl) and the emergent gameplay of niche builds turning her into an offensive powerhouse against Eidolons - in a manner that befits her creative roots, as this uses preparation to ultimately build a sort of lethal trap, detonated when the time is right - when the Eidolons become vulnerable.

Abilities

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-Passive

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Ivara's Passive gives her innate enemy radar. I don't think there's anything wrong with this passive thematically or for her gameplay. For a squishy, stealthy tracker, knowing where your opposition is, definitely helps in knowing how to approach.

-Quiver

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--Cloak

Cloak Arrows are Ivara's utility and cooperative stealth option, allowing her to extend her hiding places to locations at distance and to entities other than herself. However, this is limited by a few factors.

The base radius of the ability is very poor. Unless attached to the target, this heavily limits mobility - for Ivara herself, currently Prowl has the same issue, making it difficult to choose one over the other generally.
Companions can either float (sentinels) or wander/attack (mobile companions) outside of the cloaked area, becoming visible when Ivara is not. 
It is often very difficult to attach a cloak arrow to a desired target unless that target is immobile. It is also impossible to attach the arrow to the user, even when redirected as such with Navigator.
Some 'units' that should be cloak-able are not (e.g. "protect the drone" objectives in the Orb Vallis)
As a bonus mention, Nullification effects now completely remove cloaked areas instead of simply revealing any hidden units within when overlapped (original and much healthier behaviour, allowing players to move around in the limited space to maintain their needed stealth)

Solutions:
Raise base radius by a moderate amount. Ensure companions correctly inherit stealth at all times. Properly allow all smaller/mobile defense objective units to be cloaked.
 

--Dashwire

Dashwire is one of the most limited usage arrows in the Quiver. It's difficult to find reasons to put down a Dashwire that could not be equally solved by other, innate parkour options, or Aim Glide/Wall Latch. Its primary uses currently are firstly in using the ability's augment to provide power to critical-based weapons at the cost of restricting position, and in circumventing the unnecessary slow of Prowl, including that ability's augment, to (re)gain some movement speed along the Dashwire and when dismounting.

Range and targeting limitations make Dashwires often unreliable to use. The calculation of the wire on projectile impact can even fail to connect to a surface the player is standing on, seeking some point following along the vector behind them, causing additional failures in attempted wire placement.

Solutions:
Revise hit detection/vector logic to reduce failed lines. Improve (or remove) range limitations. Refund energy spent on a Dashwire shot which does not create a functional line.
 

--Noise

The Noise Arrow is the least-used arrow in Quiver, primarily due to complete non-functionality the moment a target is Alerted/Hostile. Its current usage is to (slowly) control the location of enemy units in a solo and/or pure-stealth scenario, either separating units to safely stealth-killable locations or grouping them together for easier control with single Sleep Arrows.

Previously it had the usage of causing retrograde amnesia in Interception missions, which is to say that affected enemies would simply stop engaging with Interception points unless they became alerted after investigating the Noise arrow. This was bugfixed and AI will now resume (but remains a solid strategy for initial grouping of enemies then managed by Sleep Arrow cycling)

Solutions:
Give this Arrow some identity or function when used on units that are alerted, making it usable in situations where enemies will not or cannot be kept unalerted and susceptible to current Noise Arrow usage.
 

--Sleep

Ivara's primary non-stealth option for handling opposition. Sleep Arrow is a potent hard-crowd-control at the designated area. This includes opening up affected targets to Finishers (including stealth or 'back' finishers and parry or 'front' finishers).

It should be noted that this arrow has been indirectly reduced in its offensive utility as a result of the mechanical change to the Covert Lethality dagger mod, meaning that the finishers this ability allows cannot be interpreted into an absolute guaranteed kill. Additionally, units with crowd control reduction (innate or diminishing returns) cause the Sleep Arrow to become barely-functional in some cases due to its base duration

Solutions:
If anything, give a minor radius and/or duration improvement to the ability. Potentially investigate some way to compensate the Covert Lethality loss as this was a thematic fit for the stealthier, assassin-like side of the Huntress.
 

--Augment

Two augments actually exist for Quiver; Empowered Quiver and Power Of Three (a conclave restricted augment).

Empowered Quiver imbues Cloak Arrows with status immunity - which provides limited benefits with the static nature of Cloak Arrows. It may be useful in avoiding knockback effects that would expose the concealed player, and certain risks of Damage over Time (e.g. Venomous Eximi, Mutalist Ospreys) from stacking up while the player cannot move.
It also grants Dashwires the ability to enhance Critical Damage for players standing on them. This can be used to great effect (as in the emergent Eidolon Hunter gameplay) but is limited by the picky nature of Dashwires.
It provides no benefits to Sleep or Noise Arrows.

Power of Three increases the cost of Quiver but fires a triple-spread of the selected arrow. This plays into the alternative arrows Quiver uses in Conclave (which I won't be going into) but would also be useful for covering greater areas with Cloak and Sleep arrows in a single cast.

Solutions:
Improving Dashwires would make Empowered Quiver's buff to them more accessible. Adding functions for Sleep and Noise would be desirable.
Possibly add an alternative augment that replaces certain limited-use arrows (likely Dashwire and Noise) with different ones. Conclave arrows may not be a viable option for this as they are equally niche or overlapping in the case of Slow vs. Sleep; all-new functions may be required instead.
Definitely grant Power Of Three the "universal" attribute and allow it as a resource for non-Conclave builds. It doesn't break anything, and would provide some nice enhancements in team-utility that might bring Ivara out of her primarily solo cave.

-Navigator

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--Base

Navigator takes remote-control of a projectile and allows transfers the player's input to the attached projectile, allowing free motion and providing a damage buff to the controlled object.

I can cross-post this ability's issues and core solutions from another thread:

In addition to the above, Navigator is artificially limited by limited-lifespan projectiles - those which simply disappear or return to user after a time. Originally, Navigator overrode this as part of the ability's effects, as some Zenistar enthusiasts discovered to great entertainment. It would be nice if projectile lifespans were once again paused while the projectile is under Ivara's control.

--Augment

Piercing Navigator adds critical chance to the controlled projectile, scaling up with consequent targets. To facilitate the scaling, it adds some punch-through. However, this static punch-through can still reach its limit and prematurely end the ability. Core Navigator issues also greatly limit the functionality of Piercing Navigator.

Solutions:
In addition to the core Navigator changes, Piercing Navigator needs to give more for its cost, and to be reliable in its given function. As such, it should be given unlimited enemy punch-through in the same way the Ignis currently functions, allowing the player to remote-control projectiles through any number of foes (while energy drain permits) but without the developer issue of allowing the player to go exploring outside of the map (as still-limited terrain punch-through prevents this outcome).

-Prowl

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--Base

I have a lot of problems with Prowl. It is a mess of an ability with so many hidden caveats (and used to have even more) that it's outright painful to use.. but you have to, if you don't want to keep exposing yourself between Cloak bubbles.

Prowl grants stealth, for an indefinite channelled duration. It also, as ancillary benefits, offers improved headshot damage and pulling an extra loot roll from enemies (stacking with other sources of looting bonus such as on-kill e.g. Hydroid:Pilfering Swarm and 'grave robbing' e.g. Nekros:Desecrate.

However, these are all brought down by an excess of crippling drawbacks, most of which are absolutely unnecessary, often redundant:

Energy Costs: After casting, Prowl drains energy in four different ways. Only one of these is listed in the ability pane. Not all are affected by the same ability statistics equally. These are:

- Base Drain: The listed per-second energy cost. This applies only when the user is immobile, including from outside influences like Knockbacks and Drags but not counting moving level geometry (e.g. standing on Hijack mission objectives). This is affected by the 'channelling cost' paradigm, using both Duration and Efficiency.

- Movement Drain: When moving in any way not attributed to the level itself, Base Drain is multiplied. I thought it was simply doubled. Wiki says it's tripled. Either way it's an arbitrary extra.

- On Melee Strike: Every strike of a melee weapon on a target costs a base 2 energy. This counts multiple enemies in a swing, hitting containers, even Finishers that deal multiple damage instances. This is only affected by Efficiency. This is antisynergetic as Ivara will want to make use of stealth-melee bonuses and finishers. No other stealth Warframe suffers when utilising the stealth-melee bonus.

- On Damaged: Every single tick of damage Ivara receives costs a base 10 energy. This includes everything from gunfire, to environment hazards, to that gradual drain from atmosphere loss when you break Corpus windows, to Arc Traps (which tick very fast), to every tick of a DoT effect, including each of the many stacks of 1-damage toxin just from being near a Venomous Eximus. This is also only affected by efficiency. This is also completely redundant as Ivara is already frail and taking damage is its own punishment. No other stealth Warframe suffers additional negative impact from damage.

Functional limitations: Prowl removes a lot of the player's options or directly penalises them for violating this.

- Concrete shoes: Prowl innately slows the player's movement speed (unless on a zipline) not unlike Nyx's Assimilate augment, except that's not going from immobile to slowly-mobile. No other stealth Warframe limits in this way. It is comparable to Operators going into Void Mode, except they're also invulnerable, again like Assimilate Nyx, along with the invisibility.

- Mobility Tools Stolen: While Prowling you are forbidden from Bullet Jumping and Sprinting in addition to the slower base movement speed. No other stealth Warframe purely limits mobility in this way. Break this rule and Prowl is irrevocably removed, you must cast the ability again including its casting-cost. Additional note: There was a long-standing bug/feature that allowed Ivaras to bullet jump from stationary without breaking Prowl. This made life much more pleasant and was a sick joke to remove years after the fact.

- LOUD NOISES: Prowl forces the player to use naturally silent weaponry, or to consume capacity on a silencing mod. No other stealth Warframe does this. Loki's augment even adds the silencing for you. If you violate this rule, you are temporarily removed from Prowl's stealth. You don't have to expend casting cost, but those enemies already suspicious of the gunfire noise are now presented with a direct, visible target to shoot at. Ivara being as paperlike as she is, this is Not Good. Note that even 'suspicion' is enough to direct many of the game's attacks to the exact position of the noise, which would be risky enough without visible exposure.

- The Worst Looting Ability Ever: Prowl's looting is just the worst. It functions - can only function - on very specific and limited target enemies. Because of the single-targeted nature, the inherent delay, the need to sit close to the target to maintain the process during that delay, it's not a general-purpose looting ability. Making decent use of it requires inaction. But wait, it's Ivara, so we need more arbitrary limitations - sub-100% Ability Strength causes the steal to sometimes fail (where over 100% strength does literally nothing beneficial!) and, despite its awkwardness making it specialised to specific and limited enemies, many of the targets you might want to actually use Prowl on, are considered 'minibosses' and immune to thievery. Great(!)

 

As a stealth ability, Prowl's shining achievement is being the best AFK stealth ability and that's all it has going for it. You can stand, AFK, in stealth, longer than anyone else. The moment you try to do more, you could have been better served if Prowl was Invisibility, Metronome:Nocturne, even Smoke Screen.
Its headshot bonus is the only unimpeded part of the ability (if you don't count poor mobility to aim your headshots and spending mod potential on silencers).
The latter subsection up there sums up the 'pickpocket' aspect.

Why does Ivara uniquely suffer for engaging her core gameplay identity? Should Gauss tear a tendon if he ran for too long, leaving him crippled for the rest of the mission? Should Loki be unable to interact with NPCs because he went invisible once too often and it stuck?

 

SOLUTIONS!
Okay, this is going to sound like an insane buff, but just look at the laundry list of things up there.

Literally remove those extra caveats. Wholesale. No slowed movement. No parkour limitation. No arbitrary energy costs for everything. No breaking stealth. Just let the reliable stealth be the reliable stealth.
Compensate that by doubled base drain if you have to (still equal or less than the moving-cost now depending on what that undisplayed difference is), so it also reduces the AFK-ability. Just let me play the game instead of feeling like I'm as trapped as the Solaris debt-slaves every time I need to not get shot in the face while going somewhere.

I'd also suggest the looting be made more usable. I'm not sure how, but it's really godawful the way it is. Maybe just make it not single-target at once any more?
 

--Augment

Infiltrate has two, equally-redundant effects:

- It increases Ivara's movement speed while prowling. This is something that only matters because of the naturally crippling downside Prowl currently has. Address that, which you should, and it's no longer necessary as a primary benefit.

- It allows Ivara to ignore (most) 'laser barriers' while Prowling. This might be more useful if Prowl didn't already stop most mobility. Being able to bullet jump quickly through lasers? Sure, maybe. But if you're going to be crippled anyway, you might as well just be out of Prowl and going around the barriers. Additionally, though Ivara Prime might counteract this argument: Anyone who earned Ivara through Spy missions is familiar enough with laser barriers they no longer need to ignore them. Experience brings the routine to an easily replicated process.

Solutions:
It's probably safe to replace Infiltrate entirely once Prowl is made not-a-crippled-mess. Anything else on the suggestion list at the time Infiltrate was decided upon - and if memory serves, Infiltrate wasn't even the majority vote then - would be a more attractive augment than this redundant band-aid to a badly undertuned ability.

-Artemis Bow

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--Base

Artemis Bow allows Ivara to use her Exalted Bow to fire a spread-shot of multiple arrows. Charging shots rotates the firing spread from vertical to horizontal. Alt-fire also fires the current Quiver arrow quickly.

This is a solid ability that outputs good damage. However, there are some indirect caveats when it comes to certain damage enhancements, which cause the effect to be reduced by a factor of however-much multishot the bow has after mods. Critical damage is also oddly averaged across the full spread of projectiles despite whether each individual arrow actually registers a critical on impact.

It can be awkward at times to control the spread of arrows to the desired orientation. Only one half of diagonal-spreads is traveled through during charge, the other is never attainable.

Solid ability in general.

Solutions:
Investigate oddities of multishot projectiles inheriting damage buffs (personal tests indicate Madurai-Focus Void Strike divides its buff multiplier across the multishot spread, making it at least cut by a factor of 1/7 in effectiveness, more if modded for extra projectiles).
Investigate alternatives for controlling shot orientation?

--Augment

Concentrated Arrow is the name of the mod. Concentrated Arrow is not what the mod does, at all, in the slightest. "Wet Noodle Bomb Arrow" may be more appropriate, because this mod actively nerfs Artemis Bow if you fail to meet its trigger requirements (headshots) with every shot you fire.

Instead of concentrating the multishot spread of Artemis Bow into a single, high-damaging arrow, the augment simply ignores the other arrows, firing off only one (1/7th normal damage output) which, if landing a headshot, then explodes with additional effective critical chance into radial damage. It requires specifically building for, and essentially sacrificing so much of the kit for that one sweet-spot, that it cannot be considered for any realistic build. Gimmicky alternative augment at its finest.

Solutions:

Make the name actually applicable. Concentrate the full Artemis Bow damage into that single arrow. Then, at least it doesn't matter if the player missed the 'bomb' benefit - they still do what Artemis Bow would have done without it. This additionally provides a synergetic build with Navigator; where ordinarily only one Artemis arrow out of 7(+) would be able to be controlled and its damage multiplied, a Concentrated Arrow would be able to apply the Navigator bonus to the full output of the player's Artemis Bow build.

You can keep the bomb for the players who like to build for that, but personally speaking I'd be content if you made it only concentrate the arrows into one and allow it to be one of those few Exilus-slot augments since it wouldn't be granting any inherent buffs of its own.

 

Ivara Prime Access assessment

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-Design

Why a jellyfish? What does this match with Ivara's nature, besides (as mentioned in the Devstream) simply being a poisonous creature? Even the 'aquatic' qualifier barely counts; frogs may be amphibious, but we're specifically talking tree frogs for her original thematic, to marry the 'silently deadly' huntress and 'tree warrior' etymology. Jellyfish are.. sea life, purely. They don't even bring in any of the other facets of the theme to counterbalance that. They're just big dumb floating nerve systems that aren't pleasant to touch. Nothing huntery, nothing calculated and planning about them. Frogs might not be hunters either, but at least the type chosen have tied the deadliness into the theme another way.

What you've made is pretty and beautiful, but it's not a pretty Ivara. Sadly, her Deluxe skin from previous teasers looked even worse-representative. It's a real shame her thematic identity will be lost, but evidently we're too far along to hope to change her Prime design now.

-Gear

The Baza Prime is a decent choice as she will naturally carry a primed Artemis Bow; its natural silence does hold relevance in the context of the current atrocity that Prowl is, providing a naturally-silent weapon to not fall victim to unfortunate exposure. This can stay, even though Prowl should no longer necessitate the silent nature of the weapon by release.

The Aksomati Prime should not be released with Ivara Prime. In fact, they shouldn't even be considered for several Accesses down the line. We have a lot of akimbo pistol Primes filling the same role already. The Soma family of crit-based gear is already covered - especially by the AkStiletto as an automatic, but also through the other akimbos filling the crit-role while semi-automatic.

I would heavily suggest evoking Ivara's themes more by introducing something more like a Karyst Prime. This innate-toxin dagger fits the poisonous creature themes Ivara's designs have encouraged, while also remaining a silent option (thus not breaking Prowl, though melee strikes are still problematic as explained above). A dagger is also befitting the hunter/assassin theme, and although Covert Lethality is no longer a one-shot, it still provides a core Finisher-based benefit to daggers, which Ivara freely capitalises on through Sleep Arrows.

 

In conclusion: Ivara needs a breath of fresh air, and taking her many, many shackles off so that people can fully enjoy playing her when Primed, as currently, in so many ways, the experience is more that you're fighting the dev-written caveats in her kit than you are fighting your enemy faction in the mission.

(Also Pinging @BlindStalker my fellow Ivaraphile.)

i never had any problems with prowl after installing the augment. i got 612 energy with Ivara and have a base drain of 0,25 E/s. Also i just roll through the missions with her wich is kinda equal to sprinting speed. So if you still see a problem with that you must be doing something wrong

Ps: fully agreed on your view on the quiver 🙂

[TheLexiConArtist]

3 hours ago, (NSW)Sk0rp1on said:

I really disagree about prowl.

If you need mobility, just bullet jump out of stealth and recast it on the way down. I think that’s fun. Feels like being Gray Fox.

And sure, when you make explicit how energy drains during prowl it sounds bad and complicated, except that you can stay invisible basically forever if you use the right mods. 

I genuinely don’t get why people want Ivarras stealth to be exactly like Ash’s and Loki’s. Between the 3 of them there’s a good spectrum of stealth abilities that are all different levels of duration, mobility and offense.

Until the second cast decides to instant-break, which it does sometimes if you try to be clever that way, depending on exactly when you re-cloak. Bullet jump -> prowl -> double-jump during the windup animation usually makes this happen. So that's wasteful.
And then there's the instant-acquisition problem. You can be exposed for only a split second and get deleted. Loki players know this problem too well, but they don't have to deal with it every time they want to just get somewhere.

Duration is only superior 'per cast'. Sustainability as explained elsewhere is actually inferior for Ivara (unless sitting in one place, AFK). She already has a separate cloaking tool for immobile purposes, and since she's reliant on stealth for survival, mobility in Prowl is a must, especially to allow her in co-op play without falling behind.
We're not slow-paced 2014 Warframe any more. We have things like automatic Rescue alarm triggers in Sorties, for example. Have you ever broken stealth to cross the open area of the Rescue vault and gotten 360-No-scoped by the Grineer Wardens and their old variant, cheap-shot Vulkars?

It's not really a case of making it 'exactly like' the others. It'd still be a toggle (despite that being implicitly limiting in its own right), it's about both Ivara's options being just objectively worse. Why would you not pick standard Weapon A when the alternative Weapon B has half the fire rate and twice the reload, but oh boy, 40% more headshot damage? That's not a balance. One is clunky. You can spend two mod slots on faster fire rate and reload for Weapon B, likely still not-quite-completely closing the factor-2 stat gaps, or you could spend two mod slots getting Weapon A 40% or more extra damage in general, not just on headshots.

I'd be moderately satisfied if they at least brought back the 'stationary bullet jump' so-called bug. That was a skill element. Experience and nimble fingers could make it efficient enough to keep up pace without breaking stealth. _{It also fit froggy girl amusingly, but that's just a thematic interpretation, not the theme itself, right, DE design teams?}

1 hour ago, Kouden said:

i never had any problems with prowl after installing the augment. i got 612 energy with Ivara and have a base drain of 0,25 E/s. Also i just roll through the missions with her wich is kinda equal to sprinting speed. So if you still see a problem with that you must be doing something wrong

Ps: fully agreed on your view on the quiver 🙂

That's still just one build and a lot of investment for that sole purpose. Mathematically it's still inferior to the other stealths, who can all build, sole-purpose, to an effective cost under the 'energy siphon threshold' of 0.6 energy per second - since Ivara's "base" drain is only relevant for sitting around, movement is 0.75 energy/sec at best. They can also choose to equip Energy Siphon and have a negative net drain; they don't need orbs or anything to sustain invisibility forever, even gaining energy above wherever they started. Ivara can put on Primed Flow, yeah.. but she has to fill it up before using it, and all it does is delay the inevitable. No need for Primed Flow when your energy supply naturally increases while remaining hidden, without picking up a single orb.

Meanwhile those stealths aren't shackled down in mobility or otherwise at all. Bare-bones sprinting speed is approximately half the speed of bullet-jump based mobility. Rolling doesn't help much when you need vertical movement either. You have to go the long way around, or hope there's a wall nearby that won't be annoying when trying to run up it, or spend more of your slowly dwindling energy on dashwires (assuming they cooperate too).