With Ivara Prime on the horizon, here is the comprehensive overview of shortfalls that should be investigated and addressed.

[DatDarkOne]

2 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Have you ever broken stealth to cross the open area of the Rescue vault and gotten 360-No-scoped by the Grineer Wardens and their old variant, cheap-shot Vulkars?

Nope, can't say that I have. Ever.  If the gap is large enough then I'll just use Dashwire and not de-cloak at all all while speeding across the open area.  

2 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

You can be exposed for only a split second and get deleted. Loki players know this problem too well, but they don't have to deal with it every time they want to just get somewhere.

This is misleading as Loki players have to deal with exactly that EVERY time the timer runs out.  

2 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

We're not slow-paced 2014 Warframe any more.

Only if the group is rushing to the end like it's a race.  There is NOTHING in Warframe that requires you to do the mission fast except for that one AW mission.  Even in cases like that I just don't bother with Prowl as the enemies aren't going to hit me anyway as long as I'm not going straight vertical.  Yes, I have done and still do it at high level when with a group if I have to.  Usually going to extraction.  

2 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Why would you not pick standard Weapon A when the alternative Weapon B has half the fire rate and twice the reload, but oh boy, 40% more headshot damage? That's not a balance. One is clunky. You can spend two mod slots on faster fire rate and reload for Weapon B, likely still not-quite-completely closing the factor-2 stat gaps, or you could spend two mod slots getting Weapon A 40% or more extra damage in general, not just on headshots.

You know that's straight up BullShyte because you are completely ignoring player choice.  Also if you are wanting the efficiency when playing with a group, then why are you using Ivara?  Going by that same logic you posted, you could use any other frame.  While I have no problems with some of the suggestions, others of yours are changing aspects of Ivara's style and character in which I just don't agree with.  

2 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

That's still just one build and a lot of investment for that sole purpose.

That's not true at all.  You only need one or two mods total to have max Efficiency while still having duration above 100% in pretty much any build.  You can have a balanced build on Ivara and not even need forma.  And 1 or 2 forma to equip Primed mods.  I know this for a fact as I've done it 4 times with 4 Ivaras on two separate accounts.  On both accounts starting with Ivara as a beginner.  So it's not a lot of investment at all other than getting the common mods themselves if you don't already have them.  You only run into specific builds when you try to tack on corrupted mods or more corrupted mod than you actually need.  

2 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Meanwhile those stealths aren't shackled down in mobility or otherwise at all. Bare-bones sprinting speed is approximately half the speed of bullet-jump based mobility. Rolling doesn't help much when you need vertical movement either. You have to go the long way around, or hope there's a wall nearby that won't be annoying when trying to run up it, or spend more of your slowly dwindling energy on dashwires (assuming they cooperate too).

You're trying to make it sound way harder than it really is.  There is only one place in the game where I needed to use Dashwire to go vertical and that in the circular Grineer Room with the platforms on the side.  It's a straight shot with Dashwire from the lower platform entrance to the upper level on the other side.  The one sec you spend casting Dashwire is made up in the straight path.  I'm doing all this with a Controller.  

This is not to say that some of your suggestions don't hold merit.  Just be careful to not over-exaggerate the drawback and/or quirks.  

Edited November 30, 2019 by DatDarkOne

[TheLexiConArtist]

21 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Nope, can't say that I have. Ever.  If the gap is large enough then I'll just use Dashwire and not de-cloak at all all while speeding across the open area.

 

So you've A) spent energy B) spent time for that projectile to hit and C) unless augmented, are still only going at sprint pace. Doesn't sound like an improvement.
Otherwise, it's still a thing that can happen. Higher levels make this worse as enemy accuracy is directly linked with this. If they do spot you at Sortie level, you are toasted. Even if you're running Redirection and Vitality in the build you can quite plausibly get gibbed.

21 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

This is misleading as Loki players have to deal with exactly that EVERY time the timer runs out. 

It takes one mod to solve this without simply using proper placement. That's not the only option, either. No one mod fixes all of Ivara's limitations. Besides, Loki is also aged. He could use a TLC pass of his own, but that doesn't mean Ivara shouldn't be given hers at such an appropriate point in time as we are.

21 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Only if the group is rushing to the end like it's a race.  There is NOTHING in Warframe that requires you to do the mission fast except for that one AW mission.  Even in cases like that I just don't bother with Prowl as the enemies aren't going to hit me anyway as long as I'm not going straight vertical.  Yes, I have done and still do it at high level when with a group if I have to.  Usually going to extraction.

You can use a hobbled key in every mission if you like, but you can't enshroud the fact that plodding along at half the pace means Ivara's going to lag significantly far behind most groups.

I don't Prowl all the time myself either, because it's so intent on being a waster of my time. Its limits make it more efficient to simply take that occasional unexpected instant-death and spend a revive. Great design?

21 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

You know that's straight up BullShyte because you are completely ignoring player choice.  Also if you are wanting the efficiency when playing with a group, then why are you using Ivara?  Going by that same logic you posted, you could use any other frame.  While I have no problems with some of the suggestions, others of yours are changing aspects of Ivara's style and character in which I just don't agree with.  

Of course I'm 'ignoring player choice'. I use Ivara predominantly myself you great doughnut. We're talking objective, not subjective. There's always people who will use an inferior option on personal choice, but that doesn't make the option any less inferior in the big picture.

21 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

That's not true at all.  You only need one or two mods total to have max Efficiency while still having duration above 100% in pretty much any build.  You can have a balanced build on Ivara and not even need forma.  And 1 or 2 forma to equip Primed mods.  I know this for a fact as I've done it 4 times with 4 Ivaras on two separate accounts.  On both accounts starting with Ivara as a beginner.  So it's not a lot of investment at all other than getting the common mods themselves if you don't already have them.  You only run into specific builds when you try to tack on corrupted mods or more corrupted mod than you actually need.  

It's impossible to max channel efficiency with only standard mods. You will require a corrupted mod. Even including Primed Continuity and Constitution - Baro's costly fare and a Nightmare reward respectively - it is not possible to hit 75% reduction to channel at Streamline's 30% efficiency (also Augur Message, but I call that one reasonable to attain).

Narrow Minded, Primed Continuity and Streamline (all maxed) do not quite cut it either. You're still a few % short. So you add Augur Message or Constitution in there. Four mods.
Using Fleeting Expertise it is possible to reach efficiency cap more easily. In fact, just FleetEx and Streamline work, because the Channelling cost equation can account for more than the normal 175% efficiency stat cap. However, Fleeting Expertise kills Duration. So if you want that 100% you'll need at least one more mod in there to compensate. Three or four mods now.

The player also mentioned having Primed Flow capacity in there too, so +1 the efficiency requirements. Total cost for efficient prowling without tanking duration stat: 4 or 5 mods. Half the build. Also a fairly big chunk of Endo and Credits for maxing some of the following: Primed Flow, Primed Continuity, Narrow Minded. Not new player friendly.

It is fair to say that gated mods and a focused build can be expected for other stealthers (Ash, Loki) to be permanently invisible too. But it's certainly not better for Prowl. That's going by Energy Siphon's provision, as well - once they have access to energy restoration from Zenurik Focus then they need only one, or zero mods at all.

21 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

You're trying to make it sound way harder than it really is.  There is only one place in the game where I needed to use Dashwire to go vertical and that in the circular Grineer Room with the platforms on the side.  It's a straight shot with Dashwire from the lower platform entrance to the upper level on the other side.  The one sec you spend casting Dashwire is made up in the straight path.  I'm doing all this with a Controller.  

Ah, controller. That changes matters somewhat. What I call 'standard mobility' is very different there, from my (admittedly limited) experience - I found it's significantly less accessible to spam bullet-double-jump-rolls while keeping yourself pointed in the right directions at all times.

Still, I think you're understating the impact of not being able to just propel yourself up at a moment's notice to whatever angle you need. Getting stuck on uneven wall surfaces if you try the wallrun approach is not uncommon. Also, again, using a Dashwire - extra cost, still not taking you above baseline speed unless you're running Infiltrate as well.

[Azamagon]

With the risk of my comment becoming seemingly ignored again (cough cough), I'll chime in to the Prowl discussion some more, in regards to its mobility.

I don't mind Prowl slowing me down. But I mind it disallowing me from using parkour/sprint etc. Just make it slow down all your mobility actions by X% (like if affected by a lesser cold-proc), but don't have it restrict what moves are allowed.

To me, that also sounds easier to balance. Not toe mention, the Infiltrate augment wouldn't need any changes either + Dashwire's mobility benefits are still retained quite well.

Edited November 30, 2019 by Azamagon

[Teridax68]

7 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

I've already stated my opinion on that PoS augment Concentrated Arrow.  If they were to make it an actual CONCENTRATED Arrow, then I might change my mind.  But the chances of DE doing that is about as likely as me walking on the Moon.  

I mean, while we're talking changes, why not? A single, ultra-strong, supersonic arrow with explosions on headshots could be the perfect sniping tool for Ivara, and could complement her spread fire if she could toggle between the two (which she should likely be able to do even now).

[(NSW)Sk0rp1on]

Meh. I still think she’s fine. More mobility and, somehow, even more duration (?) would be nice but I’m happy how she is. 
 

[DatDarkOne]

7 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

So you've A) spent energy B) spent time for that projectile to hit and C) unless augmented, are still only going at sprint pace. Doesn't sound like an improvement.
Otherwise, it's still a thing that can happen. Higher levels make this worse as enemy accuracy is directly linked with this. If they do spot you at Sortie level, you are toasted. Even if you're running Redirection and Vitality in the build you can quite plausibly get gibbed.

I Answer was in direct reply to your question of, "Have you ever broken stealth to cross the open area of the Rescue vault and gotten 360-No-scoped by the Grineer Wardens and their old variant, cheap-shot Vulkars?"  To which my answer was No and the why.  As I also told you that I've done multiple Sorties and higher where I have been out of Prowl BulletJumping without getting ganked.  

7 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

You can use a hobbled key in every mission if you like, but you can't enshroud the fact that plodding along at half the pace means Ivara's going to lag significantly far behind most groups.

I don't Prowl all the time myself either, because it's so intent on being a waster of my time. Its limits make it more efficient to simply take that occasional unexpected instant-death and spend a revive. Great design?

This is personal opinion as to whether you feel "Hobbled" or not.  Again, while I would mind a speed change to Prowl, you are over-exaggerating it a tad bit.  

7 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

I use Ivara predominantly myself you great doughnut.

Temper temper, and watch the name calling.  😛

7 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

It's impossible to max channel efficiency with only standard mods. You will require a corrupted mod.

You didn't read what I said at all.  I said, " You only need one or two mods total to have max Efficiency while still having duration above 100% in pretty much any build." Then followed it with, "You can have a balanced build on Ivara and not even need forma."

7 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

In fact, just FleetEx and Streamline work

This is you admitting that what I said about getting max efficiency with 2 mod.  That leaves a whole lot of head room in mod slots for quite a bit in build flexibility now doesn't it.  

7 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Also, again, using a Dashwire - extra cost, still not taking you above baseline speed unless you're running Infiltrate as well.

Well, well, did I say earlier in this topic that I always run Infiltrate.  The very same augment that some here keep saying is only for spy.  Now there is a case to be made that it should have been native and included in Prowl without the mod.  

7 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

The player also mentioned having Primed Flow capacity in there too, so +1 the efficiency requirements. Total cost for efficient prowling without tanking duration stat: 4 or 5 mods. Half the build. Also a fairly big chunk of Endo and Credits for maxing some of the following: Primed Flow, Primed Continuity, Narrow Minded. Not new player friendly.

You don't need all those mods to have max Efficiency without ganking Duration.  I just did it with only rank 3 Fleeting, Streamline, Constitution, and Auger message.  While this is taking 4 slots, it's also still very new player friendly.  But all a new player really needs to do is just use all normal mods and have a Balanced Build, which will take them all the way from start to finish of the Star Chart.  

I have the benefit of knowing this is true because I had Ivara right after unlocking the Marketplace.  My Beginner Excal was still at rank 4 when I switched.  Meaning I made Ivara my Starter frame and had to get mods, endo, etc as a new player, TWICE.  Once before the SoR update and then second time after the SoR update to the StarChart.

Edited November 30, 2019 by DatDarkOne

[TheLexiConArtist]

19 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

I Answer was in direct reply to your question of, "Have you ever broken stealth to cross the open area of the Rescue vault and gotten 360-No-scoped by the Grineer Wardens and their old variant, cheap-shot Vulkars?"  To which my answer was No and the why.  As I also told you that I've done multiple Sorties and higher where I have been out of Prowl BulletJumping without getting ganked.  

You've either been exceedingly lucky in each of those times, or are omitting them through purpose or faulty memory. I also never said it happened every time either, but it very well can happen.

19 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

This is personal opinion as to whether you feel "Hobbled" or not.  Again, while I would mind a speed change to Prowl, you are over-exaggerating it a tad bit.  

50% speed may not quite be a Hobbled Key (which was only a hyperbolic suggestion to experience slowvara even after shackles removed) but it's not something that can be called personal opinion. We only differ on how much we personally feel the difference negatively affects us in our everyday, that doesn't stop it existing.

19 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Temper temper, and watch the name calling.  😛

I hope you're just playing along with the absurdity of the non-insult. Lotus knows I've been given infringements for less.

19 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

You didn't read what I said at all.  I said, " You only need one or two mods total to have max Efficiency while still having duration above 100% in pretty much any build." Then followed it with, "You can have a balanced build on Ivara and not even need forma."

This is you admitting that what I said about getting max efficiency with 2 mod.  That leaves a whole lot of head room in mod slots for quite a bit in build flexibility now doesn't it.

You don't need all those mods to have max Efficiency without ganking Duration.  I just did it with only rank 3 Fleeting, Streamline, Constitution, and Auger message.  While this is taking 4 slots, it's also still very new player friendly.  But all a new player really needs to do is just use all normal mods and have a Balanced Build, which will take them all the way from start to finish of the Star Chart.  

I have the benefit of knowing this is true because I had Ivara right after unlocking the Marketplace.  My Beginner Excal was still at rank 4 when I switched.  Meaning I made Ivara my Starter frame and had to get mods, endo, etc as a new player, TWICE.  Once before the SoR update and then second time after the SoR update to the StarChart.

Ah, I see the mis-read. You lacked a comma to separate the statements. To re-arrange: "Max efficiency while keeping >100% duration takes only one or two mods" is how it looked to me, which is of course ludicrous. I see now that you meant "Max efficiency takes two mods" and then "Duration can be recovered over 100% in the remaining build".

So I suppose yes, if you don't mind your Cloaks and Sleeps being nothing, and your Artemis being.. mediocre at best (since corrupted Strength mods both axe channel efficiency), you can slot maxed Fleetex and Streamline alone. But by the time you've recovered Duration, as we've both described, you've filled out the mod space that accomplishes much the same for other stealth options.
I wasn't saying you need every expensive mod listed - but the average player is probably likely to be running either overcapped Efficiency because they don't keep a second FleetEx around half-ranked, or to run at 60% efficiency stat and chuck an extra duration mod in Streamline's slot. This will want either Narrow Minded or Primed Continuity for the same outcome. Primed Flow is on there for the original quote's sake.

I rolled 'new player experience' using Ivara too, although unlike you I approached it via the pure f2p approach, Excal grinding up to tier 3 spy capability and farming out the pieces from there. New players almost certainly aren't thinking about efficiency caps any which way, though, for traditional duration-based stealth or Ivara's channel - they've many other problems to worry about first, and probably want other parts of the toolkit to excel for what it costs. It is important to step back from yourself when trying to investigate that sort of thing; I drew from some of that experience for smaller desirables in the OP, for the players who maybe don't have all their ability stat mods found and maxed yet.

[DatDarkOne]

1 hour ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

New players almost certainly aren't thinking about efficiency caps any which way, though, for traditional duration-based stealth or Ivara's channel - they've many other problems to worry about first, and probably want other parts of the toolkit to excel for what it costs.

This is where it was different for me starting from the beginning as Ivara.  It showed me the importance of Efficiency and Energy Management from the start.  This was also when I realized that Duration wasn't needed nearly as much as most lead others to believe.  Meaning that after Efficiency has been covered, having higher duration really only benefits Sleep and Cloak arrows duration.  Then taking actual play flow in missions into account, you then realize that you don't need huge amounts of time for either Sleep or Cloak Arrow for most situations in game both solo and in groups.  The one exception being those damn Sortie Defense missions with it's dumb NPC target.  😄 

1 hour ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

but the average player is probably likely to be running either overcapped Efficiency because they don't keep a second FleetEx around half-ranked, or to run at 60% efficiency stat and chuck an extra duration mod in Streamline's slot.

In all honesty, most average players are either copying builds without knowing why it works or taking bad advice from people who don't play said frame.  That is it's own set if issues though.  I generally advice those new to Ivara to start with balanced builds using regular mods first, and then adjusting the build to better fit how they play.  

1 hour ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

You've either been exceedingly lucky in each of those times, or are omitting them through purpose or faulty memory. I also never said it happened every time either, but it very well can happen.

In these cases one shouldn't underestimate the huge advantage Enemy Radar gives in helping you avoid that.  You see enemies on the radar in your path before you get there and can shoot Sleep Arrow to that area or Prowl in mid-air while speeding through.  I will admit to sometimes feeling handicapped when my Sentinel/Pet with Animal Instinct dies.  I didn't realize just how much I use enemy radar until I was playing Ash last night and completely forgot to equip a sentinel on that loadout.  Yeah, that was a derp moment.  😄  

Edited November 30, 2019 by DatDarkOne

[BlindStalker]

Okay, I've got a lot of catching up to do in this thread...

On 2019-11-28 at 10:28 PM, Xzorn said:

Pfft. Forever.

We've both been missing those old school days where at least it wasn't total lunacy to play that way.
DE just doesn't want to punish players for some reason. Vallis sorta did something for a bonus? Sorta.

You mean that 'don't the trip the alarms' bonus whenever the pseudo spy mission pops up in the bounty? It is minor, but you're right, it does exist. It's still not enough I feel though. But we probably need an entire re-examining of the ai behaviour and stealth mechanics and a new entire mission type added in this game before something changes. I want to remain hopeful that DE might look at it, but who knows. Your saying about the current direction in which warframe has been going still rings true, 'Tanks play for free'.

I imagine though, that it's still possible to brute force nuke it and still achieve that 'undetected' bonus. Though I'm only guessing really (don't have an actual point of reference if it's possible). I haven't done a public orb vallis bounty in ages, I only solo mine now. 

On 2019-11-28 at 6:57 PM, Xzorn said:

Personally if I were to tweak Artemis bow I'd do one of two options. Either make it a global buff for any Bow / X-bow she's using or...

• Increase base damage per Arrow to 240 from 160.
• Remove innate multishot status ie each Arrow has base 20% status.
• Increase base Crit chance to 35% from 25%.
• Swap Horizontal and Vertical mechanics. Quick shot = Horizontal. Charge = Vertical.
• Apply innate 1.5x * (Power Strength) multiplier to Charged Shots only (affects Concentrated Arrow).
• Concentrated Arrow changed from 500 Blast to 500 Heat damage. Replaced forced Impact proc with Heat proc.
• Concentrated Arrow absolute Crit bonus changed to +25% from +50%. Added +50% absolute Status bonus (on head-shots).

This should give Artemis better Horizontal shot performance and considerably better charged vertical (single target) shot damage well as the augment.

EDIT: To compare this change simply as possible. Artemis will always be doing 954 base with modded Crit per arrow up from 750 at 100% Power Strength and Charge Shots do 1,431. Added Power Strength like the 170% I used earlier causes normal shots to deal the same damage as 100% Power Strength compared to 1,268 but Charged shots deal 2,432 thanks to a higher (1.5 * 1.7) 2.55x charge multiplier and base damage. This incentivizes aim over spray shots but thanks to the change in status AoE is still improved over the original version in spite of lower base damage at higher Power Strength values.

I have a couple of concerns about the 'Swap Horizontal and Vertical mechanics. Quick shot = Horizontal. Charge = Vertical.' and the 'Apply innate 1.5x * (Power Strength) multiplier to Charged Shots only (affects Concentrated Arrow).' My concerns about this is due to me thinking about other Artemis/Ivara builds that have been used in a more uncommon setting.

Namely, an Ivara Artemis Bow Eidolon hunting setup. Basically Ivara and Artemis Bow are built with as much power strength and radiation/damage/multishot mods as possible. I know it's very uncommon to see that type of build/setup for Ivara but I like it (I even still have 1 Ivara set up like that) and I recently met another Ivara player who also uses it (it was quite exciting to me as I finally saw another Ivara Eidolon huntress firing off all of Artemis Bow's arrows at limbs/final take down). Obviously, it is very 'off-meta' to do it, but I feel doing builds like this for Ivara are kind of cool, unconventional (and kind of crazy fun). Yes, it's difficult to realistically try and get all arrows to hit an Eidolon limb, but it's more as a 'for fun, off-meta, unconventional' approach really.

• My concern comes in at examining how long it would take for Artemis Bow to switch between horizontal to vertical in your example (you didn't list changing charge rate, so I can only assume it's still at 1.0). Ivaras trying to use Artemis Bow as the 'take down' weapon for Eidolons need to realistically get their shot off as soon as possible once the shield is down and probably in this one situation, a vertical orientation is probably more useful than the horizontal orientation. So I'm guessing there would be a delay in getting the shot out with Artemis Bow in your example for this specific scenario?
• 'Apply innate 1.5x * (Power Strength) multiplier to Charged Shots only (affects Concentrated Arrow)' - to further add in this use case scenario with Eidolon hunting, so just pulling Artemis bow will be at its weakest damage point (horizontal orientation)? The horizontal orientation cannot actually get buffed by power strength then? It's only the vertical shots that are getting buffed by power strength then? (I mean, this would work okay in limb hitting because strong vertical shots are probably more useful. But fanning the bow is weaker starting off?) I understand that this change would push Artemis Bow more towards bringing it in-line with regular bows with charge mechanics, but one unique characteristic about Artemis Bow (currently) is that regardless of charge, Artemis Bow will always fire at its maximum damage potential. Granted, we've established that realistically it's hard to get all arrows to hit a target. Perhaps though I've misunderstood in your example? What is the '1,268' damage calculation from in your above example? I sort of misunderstood that part and wanted clarification. 
• Would the vertical spread of the arrows get at least grouped tighter together? It's the vertical spread being so wide that I have an issue with. I'm guessing Artemis Bow would suffer if DE implements more enemies that become status immune?

I'm not saying no to your proposed changes, I'm just wanting to look out for the concern of unorthodox Ivara build/setups (such as the Eidolon Artemis Bow I've mentioned) and how it might affect that type of setup. I do like your other changes proposed though. It is an interesting set of changes that you've proposed.

On 2019-11-28 at 1:31 PM, DatDarkOne said:

All that said, I really don't care if more people don't play Ivara.  This is something I've said to BlindStalker in convos before.  I like that Ivara caters to a more Methodical and Tactical type of players.  I love that she has a slightly higher learning curve than most other frames.  In truth a learning curve that doesn't exist when using some form of "Common Sense".  

I know we've talked about this before, but I am concerned for Ivara. I want people to actually give Ivara a chance and to try Ivara out in much more harder content, rather just regular star chart content. Star chart content is low difficulty. And it's way more interesting when we see players try harder content with Ivara. But ultimately, if the vast majority of players think Ivara is worthless to play with and her usage stats start to dip far below her other stealth frame counterparts, then we're going to fall into the problem of where Nyx was. A reworked Nyx that nobody asked for, but because the game around her changed, Nyx started to struggle in usage numbers overall.

That's my biggest concern about Ivara, making sure she doesn't fall into a state of irrelevancy due to the game changing around her. That's why I think this thread is good for trying to give some QoL changes to Ivara to guard against the potential future outcome. At the very least, I think its been established that Ivara isn't perfect and there are some flaws in parts of her kit that could use some fine tuning. 

Spoiler

@Xzorn I'm sorry, I don't mean to be malicious when I reference Nyx's situation. I know she meant a lot to you as well. But it's the situation that occurred to Nyx and I'm growing more concerned that it might happen to Ivara some day in the future. Some QoL changes introduced now, would hopefully guard against that from happening to Ivara. But again, it's fair to say it might not happen to Ivara simply because her major redeeming factor is that she's an invisibility frame, and invisibility still holds worthwhile merit... for now. Until DE starts throwing more curveballs such as the Scyto Raknoid and Profit Taker and I start questioning why the invisibility frames still have awful eHP and if more enemies introduced are going to wreck their entire means of defense. Something must be compensated back for the invisibility frames.

 

On 2019-11-29 at 3:43 PM, DatDarkOne said:

Now if you meant showing that directly in game, then there are lots of abilities that didn't show nuanced stats in game.  For example like how Ember's old WoF didn't show that it had a hard limit of only 5 targets. 😄  

Which isn't a good way to communicate to the player important information. That shouldn't be the standard. Most players still don't even know about the basic 4 types of energy drain on prowl because they only see one base stat in her ability UI description. We really do need something like Warframe Builder's actual stats or the wiki to tell us all of this important relevant information. Again, it shouldn't be standard that important information like that is left out on ability pages (but I'm slightly digressing here, different topic for a different day).

Ugh. It seems I'm going to have break this comment into multiple replies as I can't get everything quoted for whatever reason. 

  

On 2019-11-28 at 7:09 PM, Azamagon said:

Dashwire Arrow - Idea: Sometimes I want to get rid of a specific dashwire. How about holding your melee button while on a dashwire = you snap the dashwire. She can't melee from dashwires anyway, so, why not?

Melee Gunblades. That change would probably mess up shooting the gunblades from an empowered quiver critical damage wire. I wouldn't want my buff dashwire suddenly breaking on me while I'm shooting off my redeemer prime.  My work around to if I cast a dashwire in the wrong place is to simply re-cast all the dashwires again so that it eliminates the bad dashwire after the 4th cast.

Your cricket/noise arrow idea is interesting. While still retaining the function of noise arrow, does every enemy within the radius of the noise/cricket arrow just randomly drop one extra drop? Is this drop separate to prowl, or is the same drop that prowl would've stolen? I.e. allow for double dipping or no? I misunderstood, nevermind.

  

On 2019-11-29 at 4:54 PM, DatDarkOne said:

That said, for Arbies my recommendation would be to mod Efficiency as high as possible (duh).  Followed by Duration and range to get nice Sleep Arrow coverage.  I say sleep arrow because there WILL come a time in Arbies that you will need crowd control to help when the Drones appear.  

Arby drone wakes sleeping enemies up. Also linked enemies become immune to any form of CC (even death CC, because linked enemies actually just become straight up immune). First priority should probably be sniping that drone out first since invulnerable enemies are hazardous.

 

Edited December 3, 2019 by BlindStalker

[DatDarkOne]

8 minutes ago, BlindStalker said:

You mean that 'don't the trip the alarms' bonus whenever the pseudo spy mission pops up in the bounty? It is minor, but you're right, it does exist. It's still not enough I feel though. But we probably need an entire re-examining of the ai behaviour and stealth mechanics and a new entire mission type added in this game before something changes. I want to remain hopeful that DE might look at it, but who knows. Your saying about the current direction in which warframe has been going still rings true, 'Tanks play for free'.

If DE ever re-examined Stealth Mechanics and added ANY incentive for player to use Stealth Tactics, I would have a massive orgasm.  😄  

11 minutes ago, BlindStalker said:

Namely, an Ivara Artemis Bow Eidolon hunting setup. Basically Ivara and Artemis Bow are built with as much power strength and radiation/damage/multishot mods as possible. I know it's very uncommon to see that type of build/setup for Ivara but I like it (I even still have 1 Ivara set up like that) and I recently met another Ivara player who also uses it (it was quite exciting to me as I finally saw another Ivara Eidolon huntress firing off all of Artemis Bow's arrows at limbs/final take down). Obviously, it is very 'off-meta' to do it, but I feel doing builds like this for Ivara are kind of cool, unconventional (and kind of crazy fun). Yes, it's difficult to realistically try and get all arrows to hit an Eidolon limb, but it's more as a 'for fun, off-meta, unconventional' approach really.

I'm of the opinion that there are a lot more who do this.  Only that as I've said before that most Ivara players are generally playing solo.  I also made an Eidolon Hunting build for Ivara.  It's actually part of my Plains Stalker build.  Mostly reflected in how Artemis Bow is modded.  

15 minutes ago, BlindStalker said:

I know we've talked about this before, but I am concerned for Ivara. I want people to actually give Ivara a chance and to try Ivara out in much more harder content, rather just regular star chart content. Star chart content is low difficulty. And it's way more interesting when we see players try harder content with Ivara. But ultimately, if the vast majority of players think Ivara is worthless to play with and her usage stats start to dip far below her other stealth frame counterparts, then we're going to fall into the problem of where Nyx was. A reworked Nyx that nobody asked for, but because the game around her changed, Nyx started to struggle in usage numbers overall.

That's my biggest concern about Ivara, making sure she doesn't fall into a state of irrelevancy due to the game changing around her. That's why I think this thread is good for trying to give some QoL changes to Ivara to guard against the potential future outcome. At the very least, I think its been established that Ivara isn't perfect and there are some flaws in parts of her kit that could use some fine tuning.

This one is kinda complicated for me to reply to in a way.  I see your concern and even understand it in a lot of ways.  I just see her as appealing to a certain type of player.  There is nothing at all wrong with this.  I think the biggest thing DE can do to both help Ivara's usage and indirectly buff her at the same time is to re-evaluate certain aspects of the game that they have been ignoring.  Things like Tactics and Stealth. 

Currently DE has been making content and/or missions that cater to the Leeroy Jenkins crowd.   Something which @Xzorn noticed before I did.  I just didn't notice it until a few months after Orb Vallis was added.  It came to a head when DE nerfed the Corpus there because of all the crying on the forums about them.  They cried instead of using the OBVIOUS tactics of taking out the beacons so the enemy levels and numbers wouldn't rise.   I myself was soloing all of Orb Vallis with Ivara and only had problems with a couple of the defense types. Something I considered a challenge for myself to overcome.  😄 

Then came when I decided I wanted my AW gun in normal missions and I ran straight into how the Orb Mother's homing attacks still came at me while in Prowl.  The other eye-opening experience was with the Ropolyst fight.  That whole fight pissed me off because not only could the Boss see me in Prowl, but my Dashwire (which was the perfect tool for that area) was completely disabled yet still counted against you.  These two things forced me to see that DE was making the game more "Tanks play Free" as Xzorn would say.  

My hope with Ivara Prime release is that DE would look into her abilities and see where current decisions by them has effected Tactics and Stealth in the game as a whole.  So far, Ivara is the only frame that can even do a stealth run against the enemies due to all the changes DE has done to their detection.  As I said in another topic, "There is a difference between smarter enemy A.I. and the omniscient enemies we have now that know everything all the time in all places." 

[Xzorn]

56 minutes ago, BlindStalker said:

Okay, I've got a lot of catching up to do in this thread...

You mean that 'don't the trip the alarms' bonus whenever the pseudo spy mission pops up in the bounty? It is minor, but you're right, it does exist. It's still not enough I feel though. But we probably need an entire re-examining of the ai behaviour and stealth mechanics and a new entire mission type added in this game before something changes. I want to remain hopeful that DE might look at it, but who knows. Your saying about the current direction in which warframe has been going still rings true, 'Tanks play for free'.

It was enough where I bothered even using Nekros. I'd jump in Operator and go for it that way for the bonus. I dunno.
"Good enough" incentive is key I think.

 

56 minutes ago, BlindStalker said:

I have a couple of concerns about the 'Swap Horizontal and Vertical mechanics. Quick shot = Horizontal. Charge = Vertical.' and the 'Apply innate 1.5x * (Power Strength) multiplier to Charged Shots only (affects Concentrated Arrow).' My concerns about this is due to me thinking about other Artemis/Ivara builds that have been used in a more uncommon setting.

The numbers could be tweaked some. I just did some basic changes off what it currently does.

The Vertical shot could be removed entirely in exchange for a tighter spread on charge shots or change the spread dynamic all together to a circle that tightens and similar but I think no matter what changing that interaction would be polarizing on when and what each shot type is good for.

The charge mechanic could be 0.5x * Power to 2x * Power charged just to give Power Strength value regardless. Not anything huge.
Charge time was assuming the base value.
The math I used was just (Base Damage * Power) * (1 + (Modded CritDmg -1) * (ModedCritChance)) * Charge Multiplier
Things like Multishot and Elemental mods are just multiplicative results of that so they would change at the same ratio. No need to add extra math.

They could just change the status interaction and it might be fine enough. I just wanted to make it feel more like a super bow.

@DatDarkOne " the Leeroy Jenkins crowd " - I love this term.

Edited November 30, 2019 by Xzorn

[DatDarkOne]

2 hours ago, Xzorn said:

the Leeroy Jenkins crowd " - I love this term.

It just fits the way most approach the game.  

For those who don't catch the reference, just do a google search for Leeroy Jenkins.  Then laugh at how well it fits here in Warframe.  

Edited December 1, 2019 by DatDarkOne

[BlindStalker]

@TheLexiConArtist I'm sorry for the late reply, things happened. 

So it sort of occurred to me after editing my original first reply, that I was thinking in the back of my head that I would actually be revising my changes as I kept listening to this thread. So it will probably go over more revisions (because even I wasn't fully satisfied with it either). Ultimately I'll have to edit it again over. 

But to reply back to your original reply on some specific points:

On 2019-11-28 at 5:11 AM, TheLexiConArtist said:

Quiver

It's possibly best that Sleep and Cloak are simply standardised to each other's stronger stats - a 6m base Cloak and 12s base Sleep would go a long way. The Cloak bubble can get pretty sad - in the ability demonstration video you can even see the player almost getting shot inside the basic size of bubble just from the enemy shooting at last-known location.
On the other hand, there's an argument to be made not to make it too big due to the omnipresent Nullifier Problem. I would immensely like DE to return that to the way it used to work, where the null-bubble reveals on player overlap instead of deleting the whole cloaking area. That's not just an Ivara issue, granted, but I've gotten used to my overextended Sleeps and having to reduce them to keep functionality of Cloak would be just awful-tasting.
Other than Nullifiers, there's only good things to be said about extending build flexibility by making the baselines less restrictive.

We agree on Dashwires wholly. Refund energy on fail, minimum. Nice to have better range and fewer fails based on hitbox pickiness.

What did you think of the Noise Arrow in-combat usage discussed recently in the thread where it could minimap mark and possibly outline-highlight enemies in range, albeit probably smaller than the current non-combat function's 20m base as 50+m of enemy highlight is a bit much for a partial/first ability? It's still fairly niche, but it would at least be useful and thematic to extend her 'passive radar' benefit when situations call for it.

• I kind of still want to see sleep arrow duration and range increased for sure. But I started thinking about cloak arrow instead. So possibly this might be a bit big, but instead of 4m that I originally proposed for cloak arrow, I was thinking actually maybe 6m for cloak arrow. The reason being is that with a max range narrow minded equipped (34%), that should roughly drop you down to a 2.04m (from 6m) which is just barely enough to cover Ivara and her sentinel in roughly the near centre of the cloak arrow... but then again sleep arrow would have to have an increased base range as well to make it not useless again so... was just playing with numbers in my head. To a certain extent I could be okay with standardizing the range and duration of sleep and cloak arrow, but I really do want to see sleep and cloak arrows get a bit of a nudge in duration and range.
• I think I like what @zakaryx proposed as having the noise arrow do a secondary effect where it does some form of armour stripping/shield reduction (and maybe slows the infested?) the most. But I would be cool with what @Ichsuisme proposed with having noise arrow highlight enemies as well on the battlefield and I can see practical use cases for myself with it (my eyesight is not the greatest, so it would be nice to have).  @Azamagon proposed "cricket arrow/noise" arrow with vacuum effects, where the fired noise arrow would vacuum up all drops within range of arrow (while still retaining noise arrow's original functionality). - As much flak as the noise arrow gets for its uselessness, I still have reasons to keep it around. Albeit, that usage is slowly slipping away.

On 2019-11-28 at 5:11 AM, TheLexiConArtist said:

Navigator

I don't have a problem with the basic energy drain, but I'm absolutely certain the exponential growth of cost over time has to go. Not only is this preventing potential usage of the baseline ability, but it also severely hinders the augment as later discussed. On an ability that intrinsically prevents topping up channelled energy by removing control from the frame there is no justification to need something that reinforces a Total Time Limit Per Usage in this way.

The scaling multiplier growth is a problem in its current form as it encourages antisynergy with Ivara's survival - needing to tank Duration as hard as you can so you don't have to wait for multiplier growth puts both defensive/utility Quiver arrows and Prowl into a far less functional/sustainable spot. If the growth stays it needs to be changed to some other relation or dependency, whether that's making it positive duration growth or by tying it in as a proportion of the total (and therefore not becoming linearly more prohibitive as strength increases). We don't have many abilities that co-depend stats, mostly it's the Duration+Efficiency Channelling cost structure, but there are some mono-stat outliers such as Nova's Null Stars and Gauss' Redline abilities which scale from Duration where ordinarily Strength would be used. Making Navigator a 'Duration+Strength' combination shouldn't be too unreasonable an option.

• I mainly care about the damage multiplier with navigator. Navigator is still, imo, Ivara's most unique ability (and a reference to DE's work on 'Dark Sectors'). I like the damage multiplier, and I was concerned about losing it (I like the idea of building a 16.85x damage multiplier buff). Now about inverting it with how it scales between extremely low duration to instead, high duration for the multiplier growth then we are going to have to come with up with a whole set of new numbers. Just looking at my own navigator builds, I'm trying to figure out how to cram even a max narrow-minded mod onto it because it seems virtually impossible to do. Although it is true and fair to say, "true navigator Ivara builds" basically kill quiver's functionality and make it hard to actually use the rest of Ivara's kit. You would have to come up with a new underlying formula (and maybe new damage numbers) for navigator so that it still keeps its high strength damage multiplier and still is able to grow its multiplier very quickly on the new formula. With "Strength + duration" template builds, don't those normally tank efficiency and range IIRC?
• Alternatively, could have navigator start at max buff when controlling projectile and adjust the energy drain per second and drop the multiplier growth entirely at that point. Navigator is complicated I agree, but I do want to look out for it, since it's very unique as an ability. There is a certain Ivara player who I think, actually constantly uses a navigator based Ivara so I'd like to see their input on navigator, but they haven't shown up to this thread so far. Debating about pinging them (but I'm not quite sure if they can still post on these forums).

On 2019-11-28 at 5:11 AM, TheLexiConArtist said:

Prowl

We've discussed the issues with baseline cripples and the Infiltrate augment in particular being barely identified as anything more than a compensation for that.

I wouldn't complain about better headshot bonuses, but I don't feel these minor number tweaks would be enough to make the stealing viable. Fail-steals have to go, because there's not really anything DE can add in on the positive side of the spectrum to make it a build choice and not an arbitrary penalty. The stealing may be 100% chance, but that's not unheard of even in AOE (is it, Hydroid?) and the implicit limiting factor of living targets is more than enough of a consideration. The steal time for single targets needs to be absolutely slashed if it's not moving to a multi-target model, so that heavy Duration isn't the only way to make it happen in any reasonable time - alternatively, allowing multiple targets under the current model with only minor tweaks to range and/or duration would be a safe alternative. (Maybe this single/multi targeting steal could even be a tradeoff in a REAL Prowl augment?)

• Okay, I would be alright if prowl's fail to steal loop was just simply made a flat 100% grantee unaffected by strength.
• A multiple prowl loot would be nice and I'm open to the idea, as long as it doesn't involve 'looting multiple causes more energy drain' since we really don't need more energy drain on her.I don't have an idea of what this might look like right now, but I'll think about adding it somewhere in my revised original response. It could be interesting as an augment (numbers tweaking would have to come in somehow). Or alternatively, making steal time much more faster than I original proposed.

On 2019-11-28 at 5:11 AM, TheLexiConArtist said:

Artemis Bow

  Reveal hidden contents

On 2019-11-24 at 4:31 AM, BlindStalker said:

Artemis Bow

• Change the charge rate of Artemis Bow from 1.00 to 0.9
• Make the vertical spread of Artemis Bow significantly tighter to encourage vertical shots as "long range accurate shots for headshots" while keeping horizontal shots as its normal wide spread. Basically Artemis Bow starts out with tight vertical spread and widens out to wide horizontal spread when charging it. See screenshots for significant comparison between Cernos Prime's vertical spread vs Artemis Bow's huge vertical spread. The Cernos Prime can be used effectively at longer ranges, Artemis Bow is sadly too wide-spread for long range engagements:

  This is how wide the vertical spread of Artemis Bow is at 10m. I have split chamber and VA mulit-shot mods on. You can't realistically get all 18 arrows to hit an enemy's head in vertical angle, even at point blank range. Read screenshot for further details.

  

  This is the Cernos Prime's vertical shot, and by the way that's all 8 arrows being shot in a very tight grouping (due to mulit-shot mods). Cernos Prime can accurately hit headshots at range with its vertical shot, all 8 arrows! Read screenshot for further details.
  

• (Investigate the mulit-shot bugs with Artemis Bow, if they exist. Refer to OP's post in the original spoiler above.)

I can see where you're coming from with this, especially with the Cernos Prime in comparison. However, I'm not absolutely convinced. I feel like Artemis is still pretty solid single-target with the vertical spread, even if it's not all hitting the head bonus. It might not be in-mission diversity like you'd prefer, but making the Concentrated Arrow do what it says on the proverbial tin would make the out-of-mission choice a matter of favouring AOE or favouring the single shot.

Iif the bomb was still kept on Concentrated along with the actual-concentrating-of-arrows, then it becomes the better single target with the more dubious AOE clear (depending on the surrounding build and Hunter Munition).
Base AB then becomes the nicer and convenient AOE spread option with a lesser favouring of the single target.

The more efficient headshots you make of them, the more the two build options narrow their favoured fields - Concentrated gets its area damage in through bombs that wouldn't otherwise happen on bodyshots, while basic Artemis can squeeze out more of its single-targeting damage potential the closer you are with more of the arrow spread connecting headshot bonuses.

(The bug absolutely exists, by the way. I fancied Void Strike Artemis Bow as a potential super-damaging meme build until Simulacrum testing showed me how '20x per shot' damage multipliers got slashed into a functional 2x.)

• Okay I'm bias. I want to like Concentrated Arrow, but I have ultimately come up short as I can't get myself to do so. How about, besides concentrating all arrows into 'Concentrated Arrow', allow for the explosion to also occur on body shots, and also increase range of the augment, in addition to what I proposed to making changes to regular Artemis Bow? So that Concentrated Arrow doesn't get left behind.
• Alternatively (go with some of the changes that Xzorn said already). (Optionally increase the base range of concentrated arrow and allow for explosions on body shots). I just want Artemis Bow to get a buff at this point so that it doesn't get power-creeped by the other bows.

On 2019-11-28 at 5:11 AM, TheLexiConArtist said:

Augments

  Reveal hidden contents

On 2019-11-24 at 4:31 AM, BlindStalker said:

Augments: baking them into Ivara's kit

Now comes for a more unique change that is designed to encourage players to understand that Ivara can be used outside of 'spy missions'. I am disappointed when players only view Ivara as a frame that is only 'good for spy missions and nothing else'. Sure Ivara can do spy missions, but she can do SO MUCH more if the player just puts in some effort to understand her better. I keep calling Ivara a 'technical utility glass cannon, jack of all trades, master of none' type of frame.
Most people don't even understand that Ivara is a glass cannon and just focus in on 'prowl' and nothing else. This narrow-mindness causes people to only regulate Ivara to spy missions. My other proposal is this, Bake some of Ivara's augments into her kit so that the glass cannon and technical utility aspects of Ivara's kit are better emphasized to players.

•  Empowered quiver - baking EQ into Ivara's kit, should send a message to the player that she can give unique team buffs with crit-wire, that her cloak is also useful for status effect cleansing. They would at least better encourage players to use dashwires in combat more frequently. It would be basic QoL if EQ got added in as standard for her kit. It would send a message to the player that Ivara can provide obvious meaningful buffs to the team if EQ was baked in without having to balance modding around it (this issue is probably what stops people from using it as often, besides not taking Ivara out at all). This would then free up the augment slot for 'Quiver' so that something new can be created for Ivara.
• Infiltrate - over time, I've been disappointed with this mod. Not because its bad, but because this mod accidentally caused Ivara to be 'pigeon-holed' into the spy niche. So many people just stick this mod on her, not really caring about the other stats and call it a day, building Ivara. At this point, you might as well just make it a permanent part of her kit. I don't want people to constantly just slap this augment on Ivara and to not do anything else with her. It would hopefully encourage people to realize that 'power strength' on Ivara isn't a "dump stat" since power strength affects 3/4th of Ivara's kit including this augment! Power strength is really juicy on Ivara, it should be emphasized to the player to not dump it, unless you truly are building only for quiver. This would then free up the augment slot for 'Prowl' so that something new can be created for Ivara.
• Piercing navigator - just bake this mod into her kit already! We know that PN is the least used augment out of all of Ivara's augment. DE's own internal statistics even showed this during Update 25.6. DE only touched/updated augments of which they noticed were severely under-used by the community. Guess which of Ivara's augments got updated? Now navigator is supposed to be Ivara's "cannon" shot. But realistically speaking, PN is such an underused augment that if DE deleted it, nobody would bat an eyelash about its disappearance. However, to emphasize to the player that Ivara can be built as a 'glass cannon', PN should just become a standard part of navigator overall. This would then free up the augment slot for 'Navigator' so that something new can be created for Ivara.
• Concentrated Arrow - .. okay don't bake this augment into her kit. It should remain as an augment. Update it like others have suggested (combine all the default 7 arrows into 1 arrow, instead of being misleading and only taking the damage of one arrow). Make it actually concentrated in damage.

Now, you might have noticed that I kept saying 'free up augment slot' for 'x' ability. The point of baking augments is a few reasons.

1. Again, to change perception in the wf player community that Ivara has unique abilities and that she can be useful outside of her spy niche, and to encourage people to view Ivara as a 'technical utility glass cannon, jack of all trades, master of none' type of frame instead of 'goes invisible and is only useful for spy...'. Ivara's augments are useful and I know some might say OP. But the fact that the average player isn't bringing Ivara out to more end-game activities like Eidolons, or Arbitrations or whatever end-game, and is instead regulating Ivara to just 'spy missions' only, strikes me as disappointing. Baking some of her augments into her kit should hopefully change the perception of the average player into trying more things with her. Encourage players to build for other aspects of her kit, instead of just infiltrate.
2. Freeing up augments would allow new ideas to be proposed for Ivara. For those of you who don't know, Piercing navigator, is an augment that was unfortunately born from extremely poor feedback mis-communication on DE's part. Basically DE polled the design council on what Ivara's navigator augment could have been. The design council voted on 6 different options, and there was a clear favourite that the design council leaned on: "Ivara travels with the projectile, appearing at the location where the ability ends." Basically, give Ivara something similiar to Nezha's Warding Halo teleport ability. This was the top voted choice by a fair margin. However, DE didn't go with that option (I think the reasons were for technical reasons, but I don't if that was the case). In any case, DE didn't go with the top voted option, DE didn't even go with the 2nd most voted option (which was: "reduce energy cost per target hit"). DE gave us Piercing navigator instead, which by the way, was not even option that could be voted on in that poll. In other words, DE what was the point of polling the design council if you were going to just ignore their poll and ultimately give something completely different in the end for Ivara's navigator augment? Baking PN could free up the navigator augment slot and would give DE another chance to try again at maybe creating that voted on idea (or give us a new navigator augment that we would likely use).

This is a rough template of idea proposals. At the end of the day, I'm hoping for Ivara to be improved in a way so that more players, take Ivara seriously as a frame and realize that she has great potential and can offer so much more than just 'spy and invisibility'. I don't want Ivara to just be a "pretty face and nothing more" type of frame to the average player. I would like to see them bring Ivara out more, especially out of her comfort zone (But honestly, she is very pretty and beautiful. Of course I'm bias in that regard)

With the exception of Infiltrate (as I've made quite clear) I think the existing augments aren't without potential. It's just the design flaws that make them too inconvenient or unreliable.

Empowered Quiver suffers because the base Cloak is poor and the Dashwires are temperamental. It's also lacking benefits for half the ability, but I suppose there might be only so much you can ask for. I think baking those in might be excessive; Quiver is already in a strong place notwithstanding those flaws we've pointed out before. I'd personally like Power of Three made cross-content instead of Conclave only, as I've stated - yes it would be the first ability with two augment choices in the same content bracket, but it's got more potential than people credit, although it depends on how wide the spread is - I imagine it's quite tight for Conclave given the lack of range mods but it shouldn't be impossible to give it a more generous angle in PVE. Maybe even scaling the spread arc with range to ensure best coverage, as this would be unaffected by the static stats in Conclave?

Piercing Navigator suffers most because the ability makes you want to not keep one projectile going thanks to the ramping cost. The flat punch-through limit also doesn't do as much as it could to ensure the projectile doesn't 'run out'. Fix the channel-cost to the static drain, let the projectile punch through (unit) targets freely, and it's suddenly at least able to be fun, even if not high-meta.

Infiltrate should never have been passed. Like Piercing Navigator, I recall it wasn't the council-favoured option (although I think it was actually on the list this time). With the caveats to Prowl it's still too inconvenient to make use of the laser bypass. Without the caveats it's not a strong enough identity for the slot. The speed 'buff' is just salting the current wound. Bake in the anti-laser, perhaps, while removing Prowl's cripples. Either way, new augment required.

Concentrated Arrow as we've discussed primarily requires its name to be reflected in what it does, both to not mislead and to promote Navigator synergies. Keeping the bomb would allow that single-target/AOE gradient to narrow in gameplay as I mentioned under Artemis Bow. Giving the mod the Exilus treatment without the bomb would make it instead into a more accessible tweak to the ability, with no direct statistical influence (only Navigator cross-compatibility is really gained potential this way).

• I figured freeing up Ivara's augments by baking them into her kit would've been nice to then add in a bunch of new augments to her (there have been several proposed ideas as well for new augments for her). I actually had to look up 'Power of Three'. Yes I don't touch conclave with a 50 foot long pole. Okay that might be interesting to have as a PvE augment. But my suggestion to bake Empowered Quiver in, would free up the augment slot and allow for 'Power of Three' PvE augment to come in. That's what I was thinking about when baking Emp-Quiver into her kit, to just free the slot up entirely and make quiver even more functional. Just as an example. But if you think baking emp-quiver would make the ability to complicated then alright. I'm not going to push on emp-quiver .

• At the very least bake Infiltrate's laser bypass into her kit. My bias reason is, because that's only reason I use Infiltrate at all. Then Infiltrate can be remade into whatever new prowl augment.

• Piercing navigator is never going to be loved, I figured baking it into her kit at least would preserve it's potential capability. The punch-through really should've been standard on get-go for the augment, as there are very few weapons that can synergize well with navigator. But I get that you want navigator (as an ability) to be redesign a bit. I can't come up with another way to redesign it, because I feel we would have to come up with new formulas for it, plus I'm starring at my own navigator builds and wondering how it would have to get re-built. I don't have an idea of what it would look like. I do like this 16.85x damage multiplier that I've got on one navigator build. It's excessive, but fun. 

I will revise my first reply a bit later because I was expecting to do so since I was really satisfied with it.

  

On 2019-11-23 at 3:47 AM, TheLexiConArtist said:

Ivara has been a favourite of mine since her introduction years ago. When new content drops, my first choice of approach, invariably, goes back to her. Rathuum, Eidolons, on and on. Now, considering usage data for Warframes was displayed on the recent Devstream 133, one thing I noticed was a near-complete absence of Ivara's key colour where it should be on the graph.

Edit, meant to quote this too. This was also something that I was greatly interested in. I couldn't really determine where Ivara's usage stats were on that graph. I tried using the MS paint colour picker tool, but couldn't really get accurate results that could determine where her blue strip was on the graph. I really am concerned about Ivara's usage stats too and I would've liked to have known where she fairs right now. @[DE]Rebecca May I please ask if you could share with us, the raw usage stat numbers that were displayed in devstream 133? Like you had shared previously with us back in 2018 for the August 8 to 15 period?

Edited December 3, 2019 by BlindStalker

[DatDarkOne]

3 hours ago, BlindStalker said:

May I please ask if you could share with us, the raw usage stat numbers that were displayed in devstream 133? Like you had shared previously with us back in 2018 for the August 8 to 15 period?

You mean this one...

Or this one..

On the second chart, Ivara's usage is the second blue (royal blue) from the top if looking from the right side of the chart.  

Both charts show her usage to be pretty good when looking at all the frames.  

edit: found third chart also.  

Edited December 1, 2019 by DatDarkOne

[Xzorn]

8 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

On the second chart, Ivara's usage is the second blue (royal blue) from the top if looking from the right side of the chart.  

Both charts show her usage to be pretty good when looking at all the frames.  

 

Ughh... Why can't they just combine Prime and non-Prime that looks like such a mess.
I feel like DE is the only one who cares about tracking usage over MR level also. Esp since little changes after 14.

[DatDarkOne]

3 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Ughh... Why can't they just combine Prime and non-Prime that looks like such a mess.

I agree.  It is a mess to decipher if unless you know what to look at.  

[BlindStalker]

On 2019-11-30 at 11:43 PM, DatDarkOne said:

You mean this one...

Or this one..

On the second chart, Ivara's usage is the second blue (royal blue) from the top if looking from the right side of the chart.  

Both charts show her usage to be pretty good when looking at all the frames.  

edit: found third chart also.  

None of those actually. Those are the old outdated warframe usage stats from 2018 (the August 8 to 15th period). Well, the first image is I think the original graph DE gave us. The third graph is one made from @Airwolfen I think? I have don't know who made the second graph though.

EDIT, Oh sorry, were you asking me if I wanted the 2018 stats? Sorry if it sounded like that. No I wanted the raw number stats from devstream 133 and they are from 2019 (below).

I was referring to the new usage stats that Rebecca showed us on Devstream 133 down below (it's the same type of graph, but it's the most recent data they had on hand. It's new because it has 28 columns now, referring to now the highest MR 28). Problem is, still can't tell where Ivara's usage stat is because there's 4 different shades of blue and I can't decipher which one she is. (Chroma Prime, Valkyr, Loki and Ivara have shades of blue on the new 2019 stats). Just like the old 2018 graph, the 2019 graph is virtually unreadable, and without the raw numbers (Reb provided a google sheet last time iirc for 2018), it's pretty much impossible to tell where Ivara is in among the jumble of colours. (Well I tried using MS paint's colour picker earlier and I couldn't match Ivara's shade on the graph. Maybe somebody else has better picture tools where they can determine where Ivara is?). It's why I was hoping Reb also had the raw numbers on hand as well. The graph is really only for showing on a stream, not really something that can be mulled over with a fine tooth comb.

 

On 2019-11-30 at 11:49 PM, Xzorn said:

Ughh... Why can't they just combine Prime and non-Prime that looks like such a mess.
I feel like DE is the only one who cares about tracking usage over MR level also. Esp since little changes after 14.

To be honest, I kind of appreciate them separating Prime and Non-Prime. Those little details count (plus I figure it would make not yet primed frame usage look lower if the primes and non-prime usage stats were mixed, at least I think).

That being said, you're both right that the graph is basically unreadable unless we've got the numbers sitting in front of us.

Edited December 3, 2019 by BlindStalker

[TheLexiConArtist]

1 hour ago, BlindStalker said:

I was referring to the new usage stats that Rebecca showed us on Devstream 133 down below (it's the same type of graph, but it's the most recent data they had on hand. It's new because it has 28 columns now, referring to now the highest MR 28). Problem is, still can't tell where Ivara's usage stat is because there's 4 different shades of blue and I can't decipher which one she is. (Chroma Prime, Valkyr, Loki and Ivara have shades of blue on the new 2019 stats). Just like the old 2018 graph, the 2019 graph is virtually unreadable, and without the raw numbers (Reb provided a google sheet last time iirc for 2018), it's pretty much impossible to tell where Ivara is in among the jumble of colours. (Well I tried using MS paint's colour picker earlier and I couldn't match Ivara's shade on the graph. Maybe somebody else has better picture tools where they can determine where Ivara is?). It's why I was hoping Reb also had the raw numbers on hand as well. The graph is really only for showing on a stream, not really something that can be mulled over with a fine tooth comb.

To be honest, I kind of appreciate them separating Prime and Non-Prime. Those little details count (plus I figure it would make not yet primed frame usage look lower if the primes and non-prime usage stats were mixed, at least I think).

Okay, I have to concede here. I may have slightly eyeballed the graph on some assumptions because the layout is pretty poor. I looked not for Ivara, but for the more popular frames surrounding her alphabetically, since there's so much colour overlap and the top legend just becomes an impossible-to-reference jumble without the graph sitting in front of me.

I think I actually got myself lost between two different shades of magenta as I was working top-down instead of bottom-up and looked for some keys of more popular frames. What I thought was a completely missing Ivara between Inaros and Khora may actually have been the Mirage section of the graph. Now I can zoom myself in and take time to look at it, I can see there's Ivara's blue right there above a chunky block of Sand Daddy. 

So the graph isn't as damning as I originally thought. I can admit a mistake when I make one. @DatDarkOne

But those numbers in a vacuum include edge-cases like the emergent Castanas Eidolon hunter Ivaras - and while they're naturally padded out with that common player sentiment 'I need something because I'm bad/lazy at spy', she's still crowded out by Loki and his Prime lumped together. Octavia usage seems pretty standardised across the board, which is surprising. For the general player base she must be 'sleeper OP' for stealth and scaling prowess. Ash isn't looking so hot, but that's likely because Loki's more accessible for stealth purposes and people still hate the bladestorm rework, otherwise finding more engagement with different kits when stealth isn't the operant condition for selection.

Despite the barrier to entry of spying for Ivara, you can also see a notable drop-off in usage towards the last couple mastery ranks. This could be seen as people who, as they master everything available, begin realising the comparative flaws of Ivara and favouring alternative approaches, either in the stronger stealth game or tanking-meta. But that's just my armchair diagnosis.

Edited December 1, 2019 by TheLexiConArtist

[Azamagon]

14 hours ago, BlindStalker said:

Melee Gunblades. That change would probably mess up shooting the gunblades from an empowered quiver critical damage wire. I wouldn't want my buff dashwire suddenly breaking on me while I'm shooting off my redeemer prime.  My work around to if I cast a dashwire in the wrong place is to simply re-cast all the dashwires again so that it eliminates the bad dashwire after the 4th cast.
 

Your cricket/noise arrow idea is interesting. While still retaining the function of noise arrow, does every enemy within the radius of the noise/cricket arrow just randomly drop one extra drop? Is this drop separate to prowl, or is the same drop that prowl would've stolen? I.e. allow for double dipping or no?

Forgot about melee gunblades (Prolly glaives and Wolf Sledge too). But they still have the dedicated heavy button, you know? So it could still work.

Sorry, but my Cricket Arrow idea has nothing to do with additional drops. The idea was a longrange vacuum - i.e picking up items on the ground from afar - not a pickpocket mechanic.

11 hours ago, BlindStalker said:

• I also think @Azamagon "cricket arrow/noise" arrow with extra looting would be nice (but only if DE allowed us to double dip... which they are probably might not be fond of).

Could you please correct this misquote? I personally hate the concept of "extra loot" abilities (like Pickpocket, Desecrate etc), but I do like Vacuum-effects. So I'd rather not be associated with promoting an "extra loot" idea, ok? 😛

Edited December 1, 2019 by Azamagon

[DatDarkOne]

11 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Octavia usage seems pretty standardised across the board, which is surprising.

That's because Octavia is boring as hell to play.  Extremely boring.  She also suffers from the same problem Nidus does.  Which is not being efficienct at farming or blazing through missions in the eyes of the masses.  

11 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

but that's likely because Loki's more accessible for stealth purposes

This and that most get Loki earlier and never really bother with anything else for a stealth frame.  That and others here on the forums still over-hype Loki due to rose-tinted glass from the Raids Era.  

11 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

This could be seen as people who, as they master everything available, begin realising the comparative flaws of Ivara and favouring alternative approaches

These two can be summed up to the fastest for farming/grinding gear.  IMO this is somewhat a result of those who believe in the "right frame for the job" mentality and constantly tell others they should always have a certain frame for whatever mission.  Those at higher MR tend to want to rush through missions to quickly get them over with as if the game is a chore.  Heck most of them don't even know what Ivara can or can't do. 

Ivara doesn't really cater to the speed farming/grinding approach.  But to be fair, not many frames do.  Players who main a frame have developed ways around those types of things with there chosen frame instead of just switching to another.  The so called "Meta".  

Edited December 1, 2019 by DatDarkOne

[Airwolfen]

@BlindStalker I GOT SUMMOOOOONED

10/10 would have made a chart again if I had the numbers. Sadly the one that got posted on stream tells us exactly... Nothing 😐

[DatDarkOne]

9 hours ago, Airwolfen said:

@BlindStalker I GOT SUMMOOOOONED

10/10 would have made a chart again if I had the numbers. Sadly the one that got posted on stream tells us exactly... Nothing 😐

You mean to tell me that this "Scare" of Ivara not being utilized by the masses is all because of a faulty graph in a Devstream?  LMMFAO!!!!!!! 🤣

[TheLexiConArtist]

18 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

You mean to tell me that this "Scare" of Ivara not being utilized by the masses is all because of a faulty graph in a Devstream?  LMMFAO!!!!!!! 🤣

Nah, it was just faulty attribution of evidence. It was a nice concept to strengthen the imperative for change originally, but I think we've dug deep enough in discussion and backing up the various arguments either way that the issues are still clearly visible without it.

After all, I'm not here making deep-dive threads on the other frames sporting insignificant presences on that graph, because I'm not as intimately familiar with them and their own shortfalls and it's not an opportune time for big overhauling changes to be made.

[DatDarkOne]

13 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Nah, it was just faulty attribution of evidence.

😄  My comment wasn't really directed at you. 

[Xzorn]

13 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

This and that most get Loki earlier and never really bother with anything else for a stealth frame.  That and others here on the forums still over-hype Loki due to rose-tinted glass from the Raids Era. 

 

He's the only well surviving CC frame at this point.

My usage is pretty much split between Loki and Rhino these days. Sometimes Nova, Nekros or Mesa.
Covers pretty much everything for me. Rhino the most self sufficient tank, Loki the most efficient wait for timers or run through not killing things.

Come to think of it. I don't think I really use any frame DE has made since 2017 which was Nidus / Gara.