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With Ivara Prime on the horizon, here is the comprehensive overview of shortfalls that should be investigated and addressed.


TheLexiConArtist
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EDIT I'm a muppet, Art-bow always had 20% chance apparently (I blame my lack of coffee). Years of reading a confusing stat UI has made this difficult.

But @[DE]Rebecca can we get some clarification on what's going on with Artemis Bow in the background? Did you guys actually change the underlying properties of Artemis Bow? I noticed that 'Cernos Prime' has the 'status/projectile' attribute being applied to it (which makes sense, it was the other "shotgun bow"). Artemis Bow on other hand, does not. Does that mean Artemis Bow now has 20% chance per arrow (instead of its abysmal ~3.14% base status per arrow)? How is Artemis Bow's status chance supposed to be interpreted, per arrow?

Edited by BlindStalker
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5 hours ago, BlindStalker said:

Does that mean Artemis Bow now has 20% chance per arrow

This is how I always assumed it was.  Honestly, most stuff never survived my Artemis long enough to tell if status was being applied or not.  😀 

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@[DE]Rebecca Can we please get some clarification on Artemis Bow's status calculation already? We're already thinking it's bugged and someone has already started testing to note that they weren't receiving as many status procs as expected. We're thinking that Artemis Bow is still using the old status calculation and doesn't match up with what's presented in the Arsenal UI -

 Please actually respond to us few Ivara players who actually care about using Artemis Bow on a constant basis.

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Bump again, because Titania Prime's coming hot on the heels of a pack of QoL buffs for the frame with more (Razorwing blink, at least) arriving with the Prime itself, further underlining the complete lack of anything when Ivara Prime landed.

 

Ivara needs her QoL love. The armour normalisation, though nice, doesn't count; Ivara's specific mechanics and tools need to be addressed to deal with clunkiness, anti-synergies and the ever-accumulating indirect negative influences arising from changes elsewhere in the game - see that Artemis Bow status bug above, for instance.

Another example - I bet DE to this day hasn't even realised that implementing fancier multiple-hit finisher animations long ago arbitrarily made Ivara expend more energy while doing finishers in Prowl. It's minor on an efficiency build, but it's still something; these are the little things that just keep adding up more and more.

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On 2020-03-13 at 5:55 PM, TheLexiConArtist said:

Another example - I bet DE to this day hasn't even realised that implementing fancier multiple-hit finisher animations long ago arbitrarily made Ivara expend more energy while doing finishers in Prowl. It's minor on an efficiency build, but it's still something; these are the little things that just keep adding up more and more.

It sure as hell does add up.  It's why I have ALWAYS stressed efficiency over other things for Ivara in builds.  It's also one of the many reasons I just can't recommend the Concentrated Arrow augment as it take too much commitment and energy to be worthwhile.  Even after that the dang thing still requires a direct headshot to work.  Something you're not gonna get on Grineer or Infested from the back.  

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3 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

It sure as hell does add up.  It's why I have ALWAYS stressed efficiency over other things for Ivara in builds.  It's also one of the many reasons I just can't recommend the Concentrated Arrow augment as it take too much commitment and energy to be worthwhile.  Even after that the dang thing still requires a direct headshot to work.  Something you're not gonna get on Grineer or Infested from the back.  

Concentrated Arrow was never worth it imo, but a lot of people were fans of it. I would get more kills by just moving around and killing with my weapon from the dashwire.

Now with the aoe nerf, this mod is flaming garbage.

Edited by Ikyr0
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Navigator really needs a lot of tweaking.It has many awkward design as op mentioned like bad speed control, high energy cost etc. It requires too much but isn't rewarding enough.

  • High energy cost.
  • Bad control: It's tricky to use in indoor missions and limits weapon choices due to projectile speed. But Ivara's kit are mostly not designed for open world missions as Quiver and Prowl have small range and Artemis Bow is a projectile weapon.
  • Time consuming: The damage multiplier takes time to ramp up. And you have to navigate the projectile all the way to the target and can't do anything else while navigating.

These 3 downsides synergy with each other closely and makes Navigator awkward to use. On top of that, Navigator doesn't work with multishot. It limits weapon choices. And ironically, Ivara's exalted weapon is a shotgun bow. If you want to maximize the damage, you have to drop multishot mods from your weapon which makes your weapon weak without Navigator.

After going through all the difficulties, you get a high damage single shot. It isn't rewarding enough.

 

Here are my suggestions:

Control:

 

I think archwing control scheme would work well on Navigator. It offers better overall control. You can use multiple keys to control speed:

  • Normalized default speed: No key input
  • +Speed: Forward key
  • ++Speed: Forward key + sprint key
  • -Speed: backward key
  • --Speed: backward key + sprint key 

More importantly, archwing control scheme utilities left, right, jump, and crouch key for movement. This would be very handy when navigating in indoor missions.

 

Weapon:

 
  • All weapon should have normalized speed when using with Navigator. In other word, all projectile will have the same speed.
  • Weapon projectiles should have longer lifespan when using with Navigator.
  • If player activate Navigator and fires new projectiles, all fired projectiles should be merged into one projectile for more damage.
  • Alternatively: instead of merging all projectiles into one, Navigator controls one projectile, but converts other projectiles into homing projectiles with no damage bonus.
  • If the controlled projectile is not explosive, Navigator should grant punch through. Piercing Navigator should grant infinite punch through.
  • If the controlled projectile is explosive, Navigator should increase its blast radius and remove self-staggering. It also increases range of Quiver and Concentrated Arrow.

 

 

Edited by yles9056
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The more I think about it, the more I feel Ivara is in a pretty rough shape. 

She's the slowest stealth frame with the worst stealth ability. Octavia and Ash can move at full speed while nuking and using any weapon.

She has no nukes. I played around this in the past by using a Zenistar, but it got horribly nerfed with melee 3.0. Which also made Navigator that much worse.

She is energy hungry and requires an insane amount of modding to make her work.

Artemis is meh. In my hundreds of hours on Ivara, I never found it efficient enough.

I don't know. I feel the meta had left this frame in the dust and she needs a lot of work. B-tier at best.

 

Edited by Ikyr0
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5 hours ago, [DE]Marcus said:

Dear PC Tenno,

Today Baro Ki’Teer brought back the Split Flight Mod that was leaked a few months ago when it wasn’t quite ready yet. At that time, we were working on the Kuva Bramma concept internally and knew this Mod would cause some issues, so we held the Split Flight Mod back.

The Split Flights Mod, upon hit, drastically increases multishot while reducing accuracy for a short duration for bows. Making this Mod pretty powerful in the right moment!

Split Flights is not compatible with Crossbows, the Lenz, Ivara’s Artemis Bow or the Kuva Bramma. This is intentional and completely our bad for not exposing that truth beforehand.

While bows like the Lenz and the Kuva Bramma see plenty of use across the board, they already vastly outperform regular bows in terms of multishot and AOE damage. Split Flights give these regular bows a chance to still be viable options to fit your playstyle by increasing multishot. Extra multishot for the Kuva Bramma or the Lenz would remove any realm of choice for what bow to equip, as they already do an incredible amount of multishot! 

Sorry for any confusion this may have caused!


I'm dying on the inside. Why am I not allowed to have fun with my girl's signature weapon. It's not even considered a top tier exalted weapon by most people's standards. Just why can't we have fun with Artemis Bow.

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Holy fudge, 'Split Flights' spreads status on Cernos Prime at point blank range so well (like this is the amount of status procs I'd LIKE to get on Artemis Bow). I'm just messing around with a bog standard viral/hunter muntions build on it, but Jesus, this spreads status so well on Cernos Prime, it feels so freaking unfair to Artemis Bow it's not even funny. @[DE]Marcus

Cernos Prime with new Split Flights mod (after a couple of hits) (look at that number of status procs occurring!)

PLdAC0Y.jpg

Meanwhile my own Artemis Bow using the roughly the equivalent mod set-up with hunter muntions (Split chamber in exchange for Split Flights) firing a couple of shots (HA, I didn't even get freaking viral to proc on the enemy, how sad!)

0hfHXZo.jpg

Builds used for this light testing:

Spoiler

Cernos Prime:

TzPsDyY.jpg

Art-Bow:

SGJWLDJ.jpg

Just why do you allow Artemis Bow to be power-creeped this badly?!

 

Edited by BlindStalker
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Cernos Prime is basically Artemis Bow with a lower base multishot. If Cernos Prime can use Split Flights then Artemis Bow has no excuse not to be allowed the same.

Unless you're hedging bets against it also working when augmented with Concentrated Arrow, but that's always been a bad augment and is now even worse due to falloff.

Another bow with special effects that can use Split Flights with impunity: Mutalist Cernos: Not only do you get a metric ton of toxic clouds plastered where you're shooting, but every tick from the cloud counts towards the Split Flight buff stacking/refreshing as well, making it much less cumbersome in how quickly they fall off.

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46 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Cernos Prime's damage is divided between  it's arrows.  Artemis Bow's arrows each have their own damage independent of each other.  

What? Both have an effective combined total damage, disseminated into per projectile damage, unless you're telling me purely adding multishot to the Cernos actually just reduces the output per arrow. It's just the same way Shotguns were presented previously to show the combined but now the per-pellet.

The difference, if there is any, is purely presentation.

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2 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

Cernos Prime's damage is divided between  it's arrows.  Artemis Bow's arrows each have their own damage independent of each other.  

Pretty darn sure Lexicon is right. Art-Bow and Cernos both have innate multi-shot and the damage is between each arrow.

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Also another kick in groin, with the full stack, it seems that Cernos Prime can reach up to 17 Arrows with this thing (on par/slightly just under Artemis Bow with the "equivalent multi-shot" mods since Artemis Bow can only reach 17/18 arrows). Just absolutely sucks that one of the big defining characteristic themes about Artemis Bow, is being added to Cernos Prime - just makes us question how an exalted primary weapon like Artemis Bow is supposed to remain "special" and unique. Ugh, just spits in the face of my Artemis Bow.

w6fPmSb.jpg

Edited by BlindStalker
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Artemis Bow doesn't have anything truly special as a warframe ability IMO. It deals decent damage on a single target with vertical shot, but so do many weapons so it's not something to boast about. Its actual status chance per arrow is way lower than the value shown on UI which makes horizontal shot a bit weak at high level. Artemis Bow really needs something to make it stands out from other regular weapons.

On the other hand, I'm really disappointed that Split Flight is not available on Artemis Bow. It's not like Split Flight will make Artemis Bow so OP that everyone suddenly decides to use the bow in every mission. The mod could at least make Artemis Bow more fun to play.

Edited by yles9056
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On 2020-03-27 at 9:15 PM, BlindStalker said:

Pretty darn sure Lexicon is right. Art-Bow and Cernos both have innate multi-shot and the damage is between each arrow.

The major difference is that Artemis damage is NOT divided between the arrows.  For the Cernos Prime it is. 

Meaning Cernos Prime overall damage is divided between the arrows (there's some slight addition with more multishot).   Artemis Bow damage starts with the Arrow itself.  Each arrow adds it's damage to the overall total.  

Quote

 

Cernos Prime

Damage is split between each of its three arrows, requiring simultaneous hits to maximize damage and status procs, exacerbated by the large spread.

Projectiles generated by multishot will deal the same damage as normal projectiles; adding multishot will not decrease the damage per arrow.

 

Quote

 

Artemis Bow (Weapon)

Fires 7 arrows, which can be oriented vertically, horizontally, or diagonally based on charge time.

Arrow damage is not divided among the arrows.

Damage is unaffected by charge amount.

 

Multishot on Artemis is really adding (240.0 damage per arrow at base 100 PS) for each arrow added. 

Now when you see that you can already get 19-21 arrows on Artemis without the Split Flight mod, you can kinda see why DE doesn't allow it on Artemis. it would instantly make all other Exalted Weapons look like toys.  

This is not to say I wouldn't like to have it working on Artemis (I would slap that mod on in a heartbeat), only that I understand why DE didn't do it.   

Edited by DatDarkOne
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On 2020-03-30 at 11:01 PM, DatDarkOne said:

The major difference is that Artemis damage is NOT divided between the arrows.  For the Cernos Prime it is. 

Meaning Cernos Prime overall damage is divided between the arrows (there's some slight addition with more multishot).   Artemis Bow damage starts with the Arrow itself.  Each arrow adds it's damage to the overall total.  

Multishot on Artemis is really adding (240.0 damage per arrow at base 100 PS) for each arrow added. 

Now when you see that you can already get 19-21 arrows on Artemis without the Split Flight mod, you can kinda see why DE doesn't allow it on Artemis. it would instantly make all other Exalted Weapons look like toys.  

This is not to say I wouldn't like to have it working on Artemis (I would slap that mod on in a heartbeat), only that I understand why DE didn't do it.   

I think you're grossly misinterpreting what is a mere description of the difference in presentation as it were.

240 * (7 * 1.9) is the exact same thing as (240 * 7) * 1.9.

The former is as if listing 'per arrow' damage, the latter as if listing overall damage then split between the projectiles. Either way you're adding the same multiplier of multishot.

bows.png

Damage per projectile doesn't change even if the Artemis Bow is listing one arrow's value. Only the total, after multishot, now our Arsenal is less dumb than whenever that wiki text was included. (Slightly less dumb, considering the Cernos having two per-projectile entries. I guess this is DE's answer to listing charged/uncharged damage outputs on a multi-mode bow?)

Both are affected equally in practice, it's just that Artemis starts off at a higher base of multishot. The Cernos has 184 damage per arrow, Artemis Bow has 240 (power strength notwithstanding). Cernos fires 3 for a net base of 552; Artemis fires 7, for a net base of 1480. So it's about 268% as potent.

Now, with Split Flights, the total damage output based on Split (*) + Vigilante Armaments gives 552 * 5.6 = 3091.2 net damage for the Cernos at full stack, 1480 * 2.5 = 3700 net damage for Artemis Bow.

 

Disregarding stack maintenance and draw time, that means our shiny Exalted Weapon is now merely 120% as potent at base power strength compared to its nearest equivalent non-Exalted alternative.

Now let's look at another Exalted weapon to see how it compares to a near-equivalent.

Let's look at Mesa's Regulators versus the AkStiletto AkSomati Primes.

25% versus 24% base crit chance, both 3.0 base crit damage.

14.8 fire rate versus 13.33

125 damage per shot versus 20.

Even before you consider Mesa's aimbotting and scaling stats as she focuses, the Regulators blow the competition out of the water at 625% potency. Plus marginally better base crit chance and reasonably superior fire rate.

Tell me again how Artemis would make other exalted look like toys? It's better than a traditional bow, perhaps, but that's your limit - and traditional bows are generally low-tier no matter to what you're comparing them.

Edited by TheLexiConArtist
I said 'akstiletto primes' but meant the aksomati primes. Whoops.
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15 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

I think you're grossly misinterpreting what is a mere description of the difference in presentation as it were.

And I think that you're grossing overlooking what it really means.  Honestly, at this point I really don't care anymore.  

 

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2小时前 , [DE]Megan 说:

Clarified the Split Flight Mod to include ‘Non-AOE Bows’ in the description.

  • This is to address that Split Flight cannot be equipped on the Lenz, Kuva Bramma, or Ivara’s Artemis Bow.

 

It looks like DE is very sure about not allowing Split Flights on Artemis Bow because it has "AOE" damage. 😕

But think about it:

  • Concentrated Arrow only explodes on headshot. It's one of the few warframe abilities that requires skill to use.
  • The accuracy debuff from Split Flights(-180% * 4 accuracy) is going to make the arrows wildly unpredictable. The only way to hit enemy's head would be to fire the arrows in melee range.
  • The explosion has 0% status chance.
  • Split Flights only has 2 seconds duration which means you only have 2 seconds to aim for the head. If the player can achieve that, shouldn't he be rewarded?

I'm still not convinced that Split Flights will make Artemis Bow OP that it becomes the new meta.

But if DE insists that Artemis Bow should not use Split Flights, I hope they can at very least take a look at its status chance formula.

Edited by yles9056
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Hey guys, I wonder if you guys really want Navigator to stay essentially the same ability but with more precise control? Asking since my playtime with Ivara is limited ('cause of her limiting kit; her slowig me down to a crawl with her invisibility and completely negating parkour killed it for me), and peeps in this thread probably play her a lot more.

I'm wondering 'cause I had the idea of Navigator working sort of like Ashes 4. Press to toggle it on, look at enemy, shoot and forget; your projectile will 100% hit. Multiple enemies could be marked, one enemy could be marked multiple times, infinite punchtrough, maybe add more crit chance/damage per punch (double for bows?), cost scales with marks.

Sidenote: doesn't it annoy anyone that we have exalted weapons we have to spend energy on just to have them out, but then cant use our full mod loadout on them? Caveats upon caveats, as far as the eye can see if i want to have my exalted out. But I can mow down hundreds of enemies with my nikana no problem. So frustarting.

Edited by TamePingu
Elaborated a bit more on Navigator
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1 hour ago, TamePingu said:

Hey guys, I wonder if you guys really want Navigator to stay essentially the same ability but with more precise control? Asking since my playtime with Ivara is limited ('cause of her limiting kit; her slowig me down to a crawl with her invisibility and completely negating parkour killed it for me), and peeps in this thread probably play her a lot more.

I'm wondering 'cause I had the idea of Navigator working sort of like Ashes 4. Press to toggle it on, look at enemy, shoot and forget; your projectile will 100% hit. Multiple enemies could be marked, one enemy could be marked multiple times, infinite punchtrough, maybe add more crit chance/damage per punch (double for bows?), cost scales with marks.

Sidenote: doesn't it annoy anyone that we have exalted weapons we have to spend energy on just to have them out, but then cant use our full mod loadout on them? Caveats upon caveats, as far as the eye can see if i want to have my exalted out. But I can mow down hundreds of enemies with my nikana no problem. So frustarting.

More precise control, the functionality that's been ganked from it stopping our fun flying-saucer type approaches, and most of all an energy economy that makes sense because there is nothing in an ability that necessitates you standing in one place, with niche functionality, that warrants it having an indefinitely growing cost per second.

I use Navigator with Quiver often, the control helps me put what I need where I need it. Marking targets would possibly help with some of this, but dumb-firing is dumb-firing, if its automatic path takes it straight into an object in the path, then it's pretty useless. Others, like when you want to target a region and not a unit, would be impossible. Ivara is nice for soloing Interception as she can actually be 'in two places at once' to defend by Navigating sleep arrows around. Cloak arrows attached to enemies are next to useless, though it'd be nice to be able to force it to stick to mobile allies easier.

I wouldn't be against seeing it as the rework for its augment, or as a tap-versus-hold mechanic to differ between marking or directly controlling. But I also think having an infinite unit punch-through (not terrain, to avoid flying out of bounds) for its augment would be a giggle, provided the costs and controls are made more appropriate.

 

Regarding exalted: Artemis already works differently to all the other channelled exalted weapons, too. Before we could weapon switch while using Exalted weapons, we Ivara players were forced to expend extra energy just to break an object or whatever. Since the others are just energy over time, they didn't care how many times they swung or shot, so it didn't affect them.

And now we're here with an augment that operates as a paid nerf for our already fairly mediocre-by-comparison Exalted, which is now also the scapegoat restricting us from a valuable and viable mod for A-Bow even when we never wanted to slot that augment. It's just not right.

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