Dry dock size

[CobaltPhoenix]

With the addition of the Dry Dock, many clans are struggling to find a suitable place to build it due to it's size. This is the first building to my knowledge that not only needs space in the X and Z axis, but also the Y axis. Because the current dojo building system is in need of a facelift, we're running into some issues.

It'd be handy to know if either the height restraints are intentional or a bug, and if they're intentional, we should know upfront how many floors it takes up. We shouldn't need to wait for trial and error when that means having to build multiple rooms (and either waiting a long time to build them or rush with plat) only to then have to wait 2 hours at a time per room to demolish them because the layout still didn't work.

[Uhkretor]

See the catwalk floor? Count 2 up and 2 down.

[Keiyadan]

if i remember it right we were warend that this room will be big and we should find a place for it in the streams i did it had no problem placeing it so

[EinheriarJudith]

15 minutes ago, Keiyadan said:

if i remember it right we were warend that this room will be big and we should find a place for it in the streams i did it had no problem placeing it so

me either. my second floor had plenty of room for multiple of this size room.

[CobaltPhoenix]

29 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

See the catwalk floor? Count 2 up and 2 down.

Does that mean if I build something on the 1st floor, then try to build the dock on the 3rd floor beneath that it won't clear it?

Will it work if it gets built on the 4th floor?

[Uhkretor]

5 minutes ago, CobaltPhoenix said:

Does that mean if I build something on the 1st floor, then try to build the dock on the 3rd floor beneath that it won't clear it?

Will it work if it gets built on the 4th floor?

Most likely. Best thing to do is to build it on the ground floor, leaving you only 2 floor height to worry about, assuming that the "ground floor" is either the top or bottom floors.

Edited November 23, 2019 by Uhkretor

[ScaredScorpion]

I believe it at least used to be the case that reactors take up space below them, not sure if that's still true

[GruntBlender]

10 minutes ago, ScaredScorpion said:

I believe it at least used to be the case that reactors take up space below them, not sure if that's still true

It is. Also the obstacle course and observatory.

[Hawk1911]

Having issues and it's honestly infuriating that DE didn't think this through and just sent it out after the tested it on their no room Dojo.  The sheer size is bad enough but not being able to see what it is colliding with and the fact that if you don't have the space you have the combined waiting times to dismantle rooms that you have had for years and then the material cost to build and then the 12 hours times however many things that you had to build in order to get it to work.. just no, DE should have thought this through just like the Liches rather then sending it out piecemeal and not even remotely testing it.

[DrakeWurrum]

6 hours ago, Keiyadan said:

if i remember it right we were warend that this room will be big and we should find a place for it in the streams i did it had no problem placeing it so

We were NOT given specifics on HOW big, however. I wasn't expecting that I needed a specific area that wide, and that long, with five floors of empty space, both below and above the actual floor you're building on.

Edited November 24, 2019 by DrakeWurrum

[Ulvra]

On 2019-11-24 at 1:56 AM, DrakeWurrum said:

We were NOT given specifics on HOW big, however. I wasn't expecting that I needed a specific area that wide, and that long, with five floors of empty space, both below and above the actual floor you're building on.

Quite. Made preparations, expected to have space or have to do minor adjustments only, having tested with every one of the largest rooms we had prior to find out we're going to have to build an entire floor extra to do what we want. This room is beyond anything that's been released so far and to claim we should somehow have "expected" that is a bit ridiculous.

Edited November 25, 2019 by Ulvra

[Gottschick_J]

Well, all the new halls and elevators I've been building and demolishing over the last week have been for nothing then.
In no way did the interface tell me there was a Y dimension at play. Time to demolish some more bloody rooms... again...

[(XBOX)UnTestedMight]

My clan expected a big room. Before it even released on PC we cleared a giant place for it above and below. And I’ll guarantee it will fit where we will place it.  If you watched the video where they showed it off you should have expected it to take up so many floors. Did you really expect it would be the same height as say the obstacle courses? It’s a massive room meant to hold a massive ship. That’s your own fault for thinking it would take up less space. I mean go watch the video and you’ll see how big it was from the start. 

Edited November 29, 2019 by (XB1)UnTestedMight

[GruntBlender]

It's bigger than the rest of my dojo. Some options for placement, like a lift so it can adjusted vertically, would be great.

[Steel_Rook]

On 2019-11-25 at 11:38 AM, Ulvra said:

Quite. Made preparations, expected to have space or have to do minor adjustments only, having tested with every one of the largest rooms we had prior to find out we're going to have to build an entire floor extra to do what we want. This room is beyond anything that's been released so far and to claim we should somehow have "expected" that is a bit ridiculous.

I don't know if it's entirely ridiculous. If you're trying to leave enough room for it in-between your rooms, then I'd argue you're already doing it wrong because you're betting on the room being of a certain size. I didn't know how large the room would be and what I saw during TennoCon looked VERY LARGE, so I planned to put the dock outside the footprint of my Dojo. That is to say, I built it where there were literally no rooms to the side, no rooms above, no rooms below, no rooms in any direction but back behind the door at which I was building it. I suppose the joke could have been on me if the Dry Dock curved back around its own door, but that seemed unlikely. If you know a room is large but don't know how large, don't bank on building rooms around it.

[Ulvra]

10 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

I don't know if it's entirely ridiculous. If you're trying to leave enough room for it in-between your rooms, then I'd argue you're already doing it wrong because you're betting on the room being of a certain size

Yeah, I'm not. I'm off to an extreme side with plenty space all around, even went down an extra level to be on the safe side, going down because I know the potential blocking room is taller up down down, but no, to claim that 5 floors of spacing vertically is somehow to be expected that is indeed ridiculous. Looking at rooms like the obstacle cources, they are plenty tall in comparison and since we still do not have even a remote indication in the dojo builder that vertical spacing is even a thing (wouldn't even be difficult, there's already the "1 DOOR / DEAD END" bit, could simply extend that to include "vertical space required: 1 up / 0 down), which to this day causes confusion and threads to be made here on the forums about why certain room seemingly without reason cannot be built in certain locations when space appear free, then release a room which requires not one, not two, not three, but five levels, then claiming that is to be expected, no, that is indeed ridiculous.

Also yes, it's partially my own fault for having certain aesthetic requirements here, but frankly, I'm not about to just give up and place it on an awkward side where it's placement will be an eternal eyesore for everyone and myself.

Anyways after a week of trial and error and finally finding a valid location the bloody thing defaults to a side entrance... why is this even a thing? Time to tear it down again and rebuild again again.

Also airing a lot of hot air here, because of the frustrations and wait this creates (and the "better than thou" forum people attitudes), but in actuality just happy that the dry dock is finally here and thanks to DE (seriously!) for putting in the hard work to push it out. We'll get it soon, just hate keeping clanmates waiting.

Edited November 30, 2019 by Ulvra

[Steel_Rook]

50 minutes ago, Ulvra said:

Also airing a lot of hot air here, because of the frustrations and wait this creates (and the "better than thou" forum people attitudes), but in actuality just happy that the dry dock is finally here and thanks to DE (seriously!) for putting in the hard work to push it out. We'll get it soon, just hate keeping clanmates waiting.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the Dojo "builder." That thing is a piece of garbage which not only doesn't give you good view of surrounding structures for a room that big but also gives you absolutely zero view of neighbouring floors. The inability to move rooms without having to wait multiple stretches of 2 hours and multiple stretches for 12 hours is itself utterly ridiculous and we're long overdue a proper planner.

I was just saying that there existed a way to be GUARANTEED to be on the safe side by planning the Dry Dock on a spot outside the Dojo's footprint where it literally cannot clip with anything. None of us expected the Dry Dock to be as large as it was, but there were options.

[Ulvra]

1 minute ago, Steel_Rook said:

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the Dojo "builder." That thing is a piece of garbage which not only doesn't give you good view of surrounding structures for a room that big but also gives you absolutely zero view of neighbouring floors. The inability to move rooms without having to wait multiple stretches of 2 hours and multiple stretches for 12 hours is itself utterly ridiculous and we're long overdue a proper planner.

I was just saying that there existed a way to be GUARANTEED to be on the safe side by planning the Dry Dock on a spot outside the Dojo's footprint where it literally cannot clip with anything. None of us expected the Dry Dock to be as large as it was, but there were options.

Aye quite. I knew I could have made decisions to make it certain and that it's in the end my own fault for having these peculiar aesthetical requirements ^-^;; I started out in a clan that had less than zero thought to their dojo design and it was an awful mess as a result, so as a result I want to do it proper for my own clan.

We'll get there, just some minor frustrations on the path. I really do hope we get vertical indications as well as room movement in the relative near future, that would be lovely, and if DE makes it possible to move rooms and keep its decorations then I could not ask for more, that's like a wet dream (and probably bloody difficult to implement).

[Steel_Rook]

I sense another Dojo system redesign in our not-too-distant future, at least if DE keep insisting on making Dojos functional. Their current implementation is excessively sloppy and slapdash, basically crowbarring their procedurally-generated instance code into an application it wasn't designed for. And this was AFTER a major Dojo redesign, apparently. Maybe it's just me, but DE don't seem to do any amount of future-proofing or precision. We badly need an actual Dojo Editor with a full overview of the entire space including all floors, with the ability to at least place large strings of structures all at once to see if they'll fit and with the "tree graph" dependency entirely expunged. We need to be able to save rooms to either deconstruct/move them or to straight-up copy them so I don't have to Polychrome every single one of my 15 sodding Reactors.

Basically, we need a proper editor that's more than whatever the programmers could throw together over their lunch breaks. Because issues like yours are going to keep happening - it's understandable that people won't always be able to plan for rooms of unknown size. A proper builder SHOULD let you adjust fairly quickly even if large-scale rebuilds are needed, ideally without scrapping all that effort decorating rooms.

I was lucky enough to basically run my own Dojo, with a small clan of people who genuinely didn't care as long as the labs worked. Not everyone is that lucky, and multiple people have already attested to running clans with thrown-together, really old Dojos. A friend of mine actually still has a number of the old Orokin rooms which aren't even available to build any more, including their "starting room." If DE intend to keep asking us to build in our Dojos, they need to spend the effort and make the process not suck ass.

[(XBOX)UnTestedMight]

On 2019-11-30 at 6:06 AM, Ulvra said:

We'll get there, just some minor frustrations on the path. I really do hope we get vertical indications as well as room movement in the relative near future, that would be lovely, and if DE makes it possible to move rooms and keep its decorations then I could not ask for more, that's like a wet dream (and probably bloody difficult to implement).

I would love to be able to move whole rooms. Decorations maybe not so much cause that would be extremely hard to implement. But being able to move a room shouldn’t be because DOOM 2016 did it in there map maker. They could do it here as well. But I believe the stuff you had in the room was moved as well but I could be wrong. 

[GruntBlender]

6 minutes ago, (XB1)UnTestedMight said:

Decorations maybe not so much cause that would be extremely hard to implement

Why would it be hard? It looks like a tree structure, the decorations are parented to the room, so moving hte room wouldn't change any of the insides of it.

[(XBOX)UnTestedMight]

5 hours ago, GruntBlender said:

Why would it be hard? It looks like a tree structure, the decorations are parented to the room, so moving hte room wouldn't change any of the insides of it.

No it wouldn’t but depending on how they might implement the room moving process. Because if we rotate a hallway it’s decos are at different coordinates that they were originally therefor it could off set them. Same with the grand halls. Cause the grandest hall if I’m not mistaken has the stairs and platform thing going on and if we were to move it and rotate it 180 degrees the decos would have to completely refix their coordinates and that’s why it might be hard. Moving the rooms themselves though should be easy.

[GruntBlender]

40 minutes ago, (XB1)UnTestedMight said:

Because if we rotate a hallway it’s decos are at different coordinates that they were originally therefor it could off set them.

Most likely, the internal coordinate system of each room remains the same. If not, applying a translation/rotation matrix to all the objects is like 4 lines of code.

[(XBOX)Kavriel]

On 2019-11-23 at 5:14 PM, ScaredScorpion said:

I believe it at least used to be the case that reactors take up space below them, not sure if that's still true

 

On 2019-11-23 at 5:25 PM, GruntBlender said:

It is. Also the obstacle course and observatory.

I haven't noticed them taking up any vertical space, they certainly don't show on the map. I've built above and below both reactors and obstacle courses with no issue, however I did notice building an elevator under a reactor caused it to go down while all my other elevators went up. I wish there was a selector for whether they went up or down, as well as accommodation for multiple floors. Trophy rooms and the larger halls having doors on the upper floors would be nice too.

The Dojo editor could definitely use an overhaul, though, not the least of which should be halving the build/destruction times and the option to clone rooms. Polychrome should be completely removed in favor of the orbiter style of coloring, even if you still have to unlock individual colors via research. Ramps and the option to leave doors open would also be nice, but most importantly a way to place and move rooms using only the map with the ability to change floors at the press of a button. Put a console in the oracle room that opens a dedicated map editor, it's not like that room does anything useful anyway.

[(XBOX)UnTestedMight]

13 hours ago, GruntBlender said:

Most likely, the internal coordinate system of each room remains the same. If not, applying a translation/rotation matrix to all the objects is like 4 lines of code.

Eh true. I guess you’re right. It wouldn’t be that hard.