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why not condition overload and pressure point?


supernils
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Because of diminishing returns.  A maxed Pressure Point only gives as much additional damage as a maxed Condition Overload when 1 status is applied.  1!.  So why would you use Pressure Point that applies a fraction of the Base Damage bonus that Condition Overload can when you could otherwise use a more beneficial mod?  If you slot in an Elemental Damage mod then not only can that give you a larger increase in Total Damage due to how damage is calculated, but it can take advantage of enemy resistances/vulnerabilities as well as giving another status proc that Condition Overload can work with.

Edited by Jiminez_Burial
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You are better off either going with a crit damage mod or a single extra elelment if you have CO since both will benefit you more than PP/PPP. It all depends what type of weapon you run, if it is slashed based you are likely better off with an extra crit damage mod if you also use blood rush since that wont water down your damage type pool and it will benefit your slash proc damage. On weapons with low slash you are probably better off with an extra element, both for the innate damage it brings and the chance to increase CO a step further.

As someone who runs mainly slash weapons for taking care of high level mobs I tend to go viral, CO, BR, Organ Shatter, speed and reach with the last mod slot being used for either more crit damage or a utility mod like healing return or life strike. I ran weeping wounds for a while but didnt really see the massive benefit of it over more crit stats or dropping viral for heat. I just didnt wanna give up my utility mod, so rather dropped WW.

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1 hour ago, supernils said:

 

The new update changed how condition overload applied its buffs as base damage, meaning pressure point and primed no longer gain any appreciable benefits vs. running a 90% status, 60/60 status, or adding more crit.

Yeah, the new update wasn't exactly kind to pressure point or many of the old builds. New meta has moved to slash with viral or fire.

Edited by (XB1)Almighty Deity
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(Primed) Pressure point is good as long as you can one-shot enemies, Condition Overload (using as weapon with good status chance) is on par and gets better, as soon as you would need 2-3 hits.

However, with the general buff on melee, "as long as you can one-shot enemies" can be quite a stretch, especially on Crit-friendly weapons.

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Pure status melee got the short end of the stick with the CO nerf. It’s better to run a crit melee with a base 15, 20, to the very least 28% base crit chance with Blood Rush, or go for extremely high base crit chance from 28% above if you go for a heavy attack build with Sacrificial Steel.

The focus for builds these days is either go for pure crit or crit hybrid. Unless the weapon’s stance combos or heavy attack guarantees a Bleed proc, those weapons that aren’t designed with high base crit are more than likely to fall behind. I haven’t even accounted for attack speed either.

It would be appreciative of DE to revisit the Condition Overload algorithm again. Making it additive in final damage calculation to that of Pressure Point was the worst case scenario and it happened. Had there been a resolution to make CO it’s own multiplier without resulting in the mod multiplying its own damage exponentially, we would be in better strides.

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5 hours ago, supernils said:

Is this a new meta or something? I've never seen someone drop their base damage mods for a base damage riven for example

There is no reason to drop PPP if you also use CO unless you have a riven with +melee damage that replaces it in the slot, it just isn't as big of a boost as before U26 but not a dump mod either.

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45 minutes ago, (XB1)A Excal Umbra said:

Interesting... I haven’t heard of this yet but now I understand why. Gonna try it out.

This is your linchpin mod.

Strsight up shield bypass or gas, viral, corrosive combo. 

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Primed_Fever_Strike

tox for Corpus.

gas for infested.

corrosive for Grineer/armored enemies.

viral for everything (status)

Edited by (PS4)Silverback73
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1 hour ago, DatDarkOne said:

Remember back about two (maybe 3) years or so ago we discussed Hybrid builds with @(PS4)Crixus044 on Discord and only now are people really starting to see this?  😄  

I wasn’t on the Discord 2-3 years ago.

But I remember building melee 4 years ago just for ground finishers and slapping on syndicate augment mods for weapons that used them just to proc the syndicate AoE. Unfortunately I feel like melee went a full circle to those times back in melee 1.0.

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50 minutes ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

Primed fever strike is much much more beneficial than PPP 

I would avoid it if I went for a status build that includes Viral. No need to increase the damage on Viral because its purpose is the debuff while also screwing as little with your other status procs as possible. With a PFS you end up at 225% Viral combo and with only half the status chance bonus of a 60/60x2 setup. This cuts into your slash procs massively. Same reason why there is no purpose to run Primed Cryo on status based rifles, it just eats up too much of your damage distribution. The exception on rifles are ones that rely on Hunter Munitions through crits, which is a seperate instance from your regular status application, so isnt negatively impacted by PCR.

Viral just doesnt hit hard enough on its own to justify increasing the damage while reducing your chance for useful procs.

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1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

I would avoid it if I went for a status build that includes Viral. No need to increase the damage on Viral because its purpose is the debuff while also screwing as little with your other status procs as possible. With a PFS you end up at 225% Viral combo and with only half the status chance bonus of a 60/60x2 setup. This cuts into your slash procs massively. Same reason why there is no purpose to run Primed Cryo on status based rifles, it just eats up too much of your damage distribution. The exception on rifles are ones that rely on Hunter Munitions through crits, which is a seperate instance from your regular status application, so isnt negatively impacted by PCR.

Viral just doesnt hit hard enough on its own to justify increasing the damage while reducing your chance for useful procs.

I meant primed fever on it's own...as a toxin damage, proc and a candidate for condition overload 

I don't run viral slash builds because turns out...they're very boring 

AND impractical with status immune enemies

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4 minutes ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

I meant primed fever on it's own...as a toxin damage, proc and a candidate for condition overload

But Primed Fever Strike doesn't increase the Status chance to allow procs or Condition Overload to even work.  

edit: I literally singled out and highlighted the reason in the post directly above yours before you posted this.  

Edited by DatDarkOne
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1 minute ago, DatDarkOne said:

But Primed Fever Strike doesn't increase the Status chance to allow procs or Condition Overload to even work.  

And that's where weeping wounds introduce itself 

That's the point i think with status builds right now 

You don't need to put all 60 60 mods as long as you have one mod that can scale your status chance...now you have more slots to put status damage mods like PFS and other 90% elementals

I think the modding is a lot better now

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13 hours ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

And that's where weeping wounds introduce itself 

That's the point i think with status builds right now 

You don't need to put all 60 60 mods as long as you have one mod that can scale your status chance...now you have more slots to put status damage mods like PFS and other 90% elementals

I think the modding is a lot better now

But what point is there in building a status build without slash? I mean it is the most appealing and universal status effect, it works the same against everything. Weapons without strong weight on slash arent really useful status weapons because they are very narrow in use. I honestly cant see a single non-IPS status build to incorporate PFS over another status mod except in a gas combo where you'd have 2x60/60+PFS for maximized toxin proc damage. It would also work in a crit focused hybrid relying on corrosive and brute force to wipe out the enemy.

In most other builds that 165% damage will just be a hindrance and you'd be better of with more 60/60 mods to keep the damage values as balanced as possible for as many procs as you can to buff CO, because the raw damage that PFS provied is low in itself because it is just toxin damage in the end.

I'm also wondering how you think Slash is impractical but toxin isnt as you mentioned in the other post. Slash mostly comes for free, with zero investments made towards the stat, Toxin requires a full mod slot and hits like a wet noodle just like viral does versus most status immune enemies. That is the reason I run hybrid setups or simply have a dedicated loadout for missions I know will have boss-like status immune enemies, like a specific lich build that swaps mods to fit the lich and their weaknesses, unless I decide to just cheese them with Mesa.

For most other things I just run a Sovereign Outcast Kronen Prime, where the neutral E combo just wrecks everything thougher eitherway with a balanced crit/status viral build.

 

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PPP and CO now affect the same thing. They are both for weapon damage. In the past, CO use to be on its own multiplier. Using both in the past was beneficial because of this. Current, since PPP is easily overtaken in 2-3 status procs, you don't have to use it. You still can, and your initial damage will be higher, but since CO does the same thing, it is generally more beneficial to drop it for something else, like attack speed, range, initial combo, a gladiator mod, etc.

PPP still applies in some cases, like using a heavy attack build, where you don't stack status or combo. You use it for initial upfront damage.

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23 hours ago, Diavoros said:

There is no reason to drop PPP if you also use CO unless you have a riven with +melee damage

Plenty of reason.

On 2019-11-11 at 12:47 AM, DeMonkey said:

It'll be an increase of the same amount every time, it's just that that increase percentage wise isn't that high with both on.

If you have a weapon with say, 100 damage. On build one you have Pressure Point and Condition Overload, on build two you have just Condition Overload.

#1: 

0 stacks = 220 damage.

1 stack = 340 damage, increase of ~55% damage.

2 stacks = 460 damage, increase of ~35% damage over previous, total increase of 109%.

3 stacks = 580 damage, increase of 26% damage over previous, total increase of ~164%.

#2:

0 stacks = 100 normal damage.

1 stack = 220 damage, increase of 120% damage.

2 stacks = 340 damage, increase of ~55% damage, total increase of 240% damage.

3 stacks = 460 damage, increase of ~35% damage, total increase of 360% damage.

Mathematically each stack with just Condition Overload is worth a larger increase in damage, comparatively, so when you're looking at "best in slot" Pressure Point can be substituted for something that multiplies off of Condition Overload, such as an elemental mod or crit.

Take build #2 for example, slap on a 90% elemental in the free mod slot not taken up by Pressure Point. At no stacks you're only 30 damage behind build one, at one stack you're at 418 damage whilst build 1 is at 340, 78 damage ahead. That lead grows with every stack.

Now, fair warning, I'm hella tired and half drunk, so everything I typed might be the ravings of a madman... but it makes sense to me.

(I used Pressure Point instead of the Primed version because... it was easier.)

 

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