Buff Armor and Health... and Damage for some frames

[(PSN)NewYorkGameflow]

The minimum amount of armor and health for any given Warframe should be 125.

I know some people will dismiss this by bringing up certain Warframes and their outcome given these buffs. I can bring up certain Warframes right now that can outclass most other Warframes in almost every way. The gap between the worst and best frames is way too big, and the enemies are not getting any weaker. Some Warframes have fallen way behind.

The abilities of a Warframe dont mean anything if that Warframe cant survive a mission. An example would be Embers rework. Its irrelevant because Ember cant survive past certain enemy levels that other Warframes can treat as a walk in the park. To make matters worse, Ember doesnt have the damage output some other Warframes have... im not sure why a Warframe that has been around since day one, and is even tied to the lore, is outclassed in every way by other Warframes. Im not saying Ember should be the strongest, but if the game had proper balance Ember should be as efficient at surviving and killing enemies as Saryn, for example. Saryn has more armor, energy, and health than Ember, and she can kill more enemies, way faster, way further, and at higher levels... and she strips armor.

If a Warframe cant survive as much as the next frame, and cant kill as much as the next frame, and cant crowd control as much as the next frame... then that Warframe is garbage.

[WhiteMarker]

1. Not Ember is the problem in your example, it's Saryn...

2. Seems like you didn't play Ember enough since her rework. She can survive quite a lot. And she can strip armor aswell. How about checking her out before talking about her?

[Oreades]

Really seems like a bandaid over a larger issue which is player power and enemy scaling. 

I think the intent from DEs perspective was that players would compensate these descrepencies in their suitability with Health/Armor/Shield mods. The problem is that that only works for the very early game because the game quickly gets to a point where you are either being one shot or doing the one shotting which turns what should be a dynamic into a strait binary option. One in which the survivability mods have no place because they either don't matter because you're killing everything or don't matter because you're being one shot by everything. 

There are a few exceptions but mostly because they are on the far end of the spectrum already like Hildryn or Inaros. 

[(PSN)FK2P]

Allow me to educate you. Although I’m sure your quite well emberssed 

This is a complicated question. Unfortunately not all warframes are designed to be mains. 

Around 2014, DE believed that the game should work by means of teamwork. Each player would bring something unique to the team whilst having inherent weaknesses which could be covered by other frames. 

Tanks were initially frowned upon, it was generally thought that crowd control was a healthier approach for the game to simply tanking the enemies by having the proper mods, this left no room for gameplay.

Later in the game, DE released updates which operated outside this doctrine because it too became stale, crowd control became holding up all the enemies  24/7 and banshee would just DPS them down, and trinity would provide energy. 

The wolf of Saturn was the end of this period, and the game has never been quite the same again, I remember distinctly how much of a fool I was, to buy the equinox prime pack, and whilst levelling her on hydron, I couldn’t put him to sleep, or maim him, or tank out of his damage,  I was flattened along with a volt, while an inaros and a nezha completely mowed him down by EHP facetanking him. Then the profit taker was launched which could fire homing rockets at INVISIBLE warframes... this anti-establishment game design is poor show. 

This means some warframes are niche role fillers, while existing in today’s climate. Selfish tanks and unsupported warframes like banshee do not co-exist.

Wisp was the warframe that was meant to change it all, a buffer for the frames with outdated abilities, for situations where frames with no health couldn’t be backed up with CC such as bosses and eidolons... the game is a total mess.

Most players are existing as weapon platforms with as much DR and armour as possible. The answer is not to buff, but to create content that doesn’t bypass each frames unique powers. Don’t have enemies that can kill through invisibility, don’t have enemies that can completely ignore crowd control. Don’t have enemies that can kill limbo in the rift, ETC. 

The current DPS tank meta exists because other frames are not functioning against enemies the same way they did in tower 4 survivals, which was when the game was most balanced. Every ability worked as designed, the raids were quite fun too. Nyx could mind control vay hek! That’s good because it’s an alternative unique offering to CC, I doubt she could touch the profit taker.

[Shaden73]

Don't get your hopes up.Every rework until this point felt like a band-aid to work around the core issue of the game(enemy scaling). Embers immolate is to compensate for her very poor survivability and the ridiculous enemy armor scaling and its very hit and miss due to the poor energy economy. They need to fix/upgrade the core game mechanics/enemies because at this rate it will hurt the game in the long run, booth in gameplay and creativity. 

[(PSN)NewYorkGameflow]

1 hour ago, WhiteMarker said:

1. Not Ember is the problem in your example, it's Saryn...

2. Seems like you didn't play Ember enough since her rework. She can survive quite a lot. And she can strip armor aswell. How about checking her out before talking about her?

I played Ember enough to believe shes nowhere near as good as Saryn... maybe you disagree. I picked Saryn as an example because she is one of the closest frames to Ember, in that, they both strip armor, and they are both focused on killing enemies, not controlling them.

Saryn had a double rework over a year ago, and ended up the way she is. The Devs obviously dont think shes a problem. Perhaps the problem is that after the Devs settled for Saryn being the way she is, they reworked Ember the way they did. I dont know for sure, all I know is that there are frames that are falling way behind. Ember, being a more recent rework should have had a much better... rework.

Again, im not saying one Warframe should be better than all, im just saying that a given Warframe should be at least up to par with the next one in some way or another. Maybe then we can start seeing better balance.

[Raikh]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb (PS4)GameflowPRO:

Im not saying Ember should be the strongest, but if the game had proper balance Ember should be as efficient at surviving and killing enemies as Saryn, for example. Saryn has more armor, energy, and health than Ember, and she can kill more enemies, way faster, way further, and at higher levels... and she strips armor.

If a Warframe cant survive as much as the next frame, and cant kill as much as the next frame, and cant crowd control as much as the next frame... then that Warframe is garbage.

Ember has more survivability than Saryn. Sure her base stats are worse but Immolation provides up to 90% damage reduction making her defesnive potential far outreach what Saryn can achieve. Even sitting at medium levels of around 70% Immolation makes her tankier than Saryn in a similar build.

Its difficult to comapre Ember and Saryns damage because they both work fundamentally different. The most notable difference are LoS requirements that Ember has and Saryn doesn't. Inferno hits decently hard but you simply can't nuke an entire room or more with it since you only hit targets in a cone in front of you. SImilarly SPores spread without any restrictions and Fire Blast has also LoS requirements mkaing it difficult for Ember to strip an entire rooms armor.

If you put Saryn and Ember in Simulacrum in front of a bunch of 100+ Heavy Gunners and both just start nuking EMber with a 100% armor strip at max Immolation into spamming 2-3 Inferons ont hem is gonna kill them faster than Saryn Applying Spores and pressing Miasma. I haven't done the math but the heat procs of Inferno can be quite powerful and an instant complete armor strip is just miles ahead of the slower Spores strip.

A lot of Misasma seemingly crazy performance is also due to viral which helps immensely. Generally the damage typijg of SPores and Miasma are so incredibly good and convenient which is what truly allows her damage to work the way it is working.

Saryn is also not really burst oriented. She doesn't snap her finger sand an etire room immeidately disappears. Sure against lower levle mobs that still works but the higher you go up the more it becomes evident that she just applies constant pressure in a large area, whereas other nuke frames can really snap their figners and stuff just dies (Hi Equinox).
Saryn also has fundamentally 2 AoE damage abilities. Ember only really has Inferno. Fire Blast does no notable damage its jsut a heat-sink and armor strip which also plays heavily into the match-up.

There are certainly ways to improve the new Ember, like reducing energy consumption and making her 3 do a bit more than it does currently. Getting rid of Fireball would be a nice touch as well, as its just a waste of space barring the augment, which is easily transferable to a replacement, but I doubt that in particular will happen any time soon.
The main conflcit at hand is however how Saryn can nuke maps due to not requiring LoS while Ember is way more limited in that regard. Inferno,s damage, especially with stripped armor can do a lot of work. If you could press 3 + 4 with Ember and hit everything within 40-50 meters she would be way closer to Saryn and I dare to say situationally better.

Edited November 25, 2019 by Raikh

[(PSN)NewYorkGameflow]

3 hours ago, Raikh said:

Ember has more survivability than Saryn. Sure her base stats are worse but Immolation provides up to 90% damage reduction making her defesnive potential far outreach what Saryn can achieve. Even sitting at medium levels of around 70% Immolation makes her tankier than Saryn in a similar build.

Its difficult to comapre Ember and Saryns damage because they both work fundamentally different. The most notable difference are LoS requirements that Ember has and Saryn doesn't. Inferno hits decently hard but you simply can't nuke an entire room or more with it since you only hit targets in a cone in front of you. SImilarly SPores spread without any restrictions and Fire Blast has also LoS requirements mkaing it difficult for Ember to strip an entire rooms armor.

If you put Saryn and Ember in Simulacrum in front of a bunch of 100+ Heavy Gunners and both just start nuking EMber with a 100% armor strip at max Immolation into spamming 2-3 Inferons ont hem is gonna kill them faster than Saryn Applying Spores and pressing Miasma. I haven't done the math but the heat procs of Inferno can be quite powerful and an instant complete armor strip is just miles ahead of the slower Spores strip.

A lot of Misasma seemingly crazy performance is also due to viral which helps immensely. Generally the damage typijg of SPores and Miasma are so incredibly good and convenient which is what truly allows her damage to work the way it is working.

Saryn is also not really burst oriented. She doesn't snap her finger sand an etire room immeidately disappears. Sure against lower levle mobs that still works but the higher you go up the more it becomes evident that she just applies constant pressure in a large area, whereas other nuke frames can really snap their figners and stuff just dies (Hi Equinox).
Saryn also has fundamentally 2 AoE damage abilities. Ember only really has Inferno. Fire Blast does no notable damage its jsut a heat-sink and armor strip which also plays heavily into the match-up.

There are certainly ways to improve the new Ember, like reducing energy consumption and making her 3 do a bit more than it does currently. Getting rid of Fireball would be a nice touch as well, as its just a waste of space barring the augment, which is easily transferable to a replacement, but I doubt that in particular will happen any time soon.
The main conflcit at hand is however how Saryn can nuke maps due to not requiring LoS while Ember is way more limited in that regard. Inferno,s damage, especially with stripped armor can do a lot of work. If you could press 3 + 4 with Ember and hit everything within 40-50 meters she would be way closer to Saryn and I dare to say situationally better.

You made some solid points. Also, yes, getting rid of Fireball would be pretty nice.

I did run them both through the simulacrum earlier. Saryn had a much easier time surviving as well as dealing with lvl 100 and up corrupted heavy gunners. Saryns Molt kept her out of trouble most of the time, her Spores grew stronger over time... Saryn was way more efficient. Embers line of sight is one of her biggest issues. Her Immolation and Fire Blast are also an issue. 100% armor strip cant be sustained efficiently because every time you cast Fire Blast, which misses enemies due to its LoS, it costs energy and brings Immolation down to 70% which effects your damage reduction and cant strip 100% armor until it goes back up. Inferno also has its cost on energy...

At the higher strength levels theyr both up there as far as clearing enemies, but Ember has a difficult time sustaining. Where Ember misses her armor strip and is dealing with an Immolation and energy pool that are going up and down like a yoyo, Saryns spores grow stronger, reach further, dont have LoS, and dont need more energy to spread and strip armor.

Like I said man, Ember is just an example because both her and Saryn are offensive, armor stripping frames. Banshee can def use some buffing. I dont understand why DE is tippy toeing around reworks as if theyre worried they might make a frame too powerful.... when we have frames like Saryn, Nova, Octavia, Nidus... lol Inaros, talk about treating high levels like a walk in the park. The gap between some of the best frames and some of the worst is crazy.

DE is worried about players dealing with "finger acrobatics" when it comes to melee 3.0. but they bring out Ember in a state where players have to deal with brain acrobatics in order to sustain at high levels... just a joke... anyway.

[GPrime96]

13 hours ago, (PS4)FK2P said:

The wolf of Saturn was the end of this period, and the game has never been quite the same again, I remember distinctly how much of a fool I was, to buy the equinox prime pack, and whilst levelling her on hydron, I couldn’t put him to sleep, or maim him, or tank out of his damage,  I was flattened along with a volt, while an inaros and a nezha completely mowed him down by EHP facetanking him.

I has similar Moments with Wolf when i was leveling my Lenz and Banshee (yeah, he spawned there while was ranking her up in a seperate day). The time i was ranking up Lenz, it took us over 15 Mins to kill him but at the time where i was ranking up Banshee, he wrecked the squad and i couldn’t take a single step in the Fugitive’s fire. But he’s definitely not as tanky as that after his last Nerf but i had one of those wtf type of moments but a Frame that can just tank him would just cheese him of course.

Edited November 26, 2019 by GPrime96

[(PSN)thegarada]

On 2019-11-25 at 3:00 PM, (PS4)GameflowPRO said:

The minimum amount of armor and health for any given Warframe should be 125.

I know some people will dismiss this by bringing up certain Warframes and their outcome given these buffs. I can bring up certain Warframes right now that can outclass most other Warframes in almost every way. The gap between the worst and best frames is way too big, and the enemies are not getting any weaker. Some Warframes have fallen way behind.

The abilities of a Warframe dont mean anything if that Warframe cant survive a mission. An example would be Embers rework. Its irrelevant because Ember cant survive past certain enemy levels that other Warframes can treat as a walk in the park. To make matters worse, Ember doesnt have the damage output some other Warframes have... im not sure why a Warframe that has been around since day one, and is even tied to the lore, is outclassed in every way by other Warframes. Im not saying Ember should be the strongest, but if the game had proper balance Ember should be as efficient at surviving and killing enemies as Saryn, for example. Saryn has more armor, energy, and health than Ember, and she can kill more enemies, way faster, way further, and at higher levels... and she strips armor.

If a Warframe cant survive as much as the next frame, and cant kill as much as the next frame, and cant crowd control as much as the next frame... then that Warframe is garbage.

Man, Ember does all the things you say she does not do.. after the remake. Not really what is the point Ember cannot survive beyond. Level 250? 300? You can comfortably do level 150 anyway. Saryn, arguably, is less survivable than Ember now. Both frames have solid survivability anyway.

I do think that most frames (especially primes) need status adjustment. Not necessarily armor or HP though. I think shields is what needs to go up across the board, particularly for frames that it is their main form of survivability. Like Mag, Banshee, among many other. Most frames need movement speed as well. Movement speed seems very arbitrary to me. Why does Mesa have faster movement speed than Mag? Mag needs much higher mobility. And I am not suggesting we nerf Mesa. 

[Andele3025]

On 2019-11-25 at 9:00 PM, (PS4)GameflowPRO said:

The minimum amount of armor and health for any given Warframe should be 125.

No, tho the base hp of a lot of warframes that arent inaros and grendel and that dont have DR that applies to shields (or over everything like iron skin) in their base kit should be bumped by a solid 50~75 depending on frame (and shields for those that do have shield DR).

 

Quote

Saryn has more armor, energy, and health than Ember, and she can kill more enemies, way faster, way further, and at higher levels... and she strips armor.

Ember got her DR back around which was balanced. Her EHP is over 40% higher than Saryns at minimal in every situation.

On 2019-11-25 at 9:06 PM, WhiteMarker said:

1. Not Ember is the problem in your example, it's Saryn...

See comment above.
If you mean Saryns map nuking power, its more to do with how her stat scaling across abilities got designed (especially the low need for power strength if you max range for high spore damage and the 4x multi on miasma with the fact that multiple spores per target proccing low status can compete and even beat a build that saccs range or efficiency for status chance) and doesnt impact the fact that baseline/kit only Saryn is actually way less tanky than Ember.

Edited November 26, 2019 by Andele3025

[(PSN)NewYorkGameflow]

Ember is a low tier frame. She kills and tanks but shes not great at either. She lacks power and has line of sight. She also has to manage her damage reduction along with her armor strip which are not consistent. She cant keep either up to max for long. I brought up Embers killing potential against Saryns, not her damage reduction, even though its really nothing special in comparison as I can survive with Saryn at pretty high levels. Where exactly would you bring Ember over Saryn? Elite Onslaught? High tier Interception? High tier Defense? Survival is probably her best bet, and shes easily outclassed by other frames there as well.

In regards to Ember killing enemies- Saryn kills and strips armor with less effort, way further, and she does it consistently in 360 degrees. You cant start stripping 100% armor with Ember right away without throwing a few Infernos down the drain, which are weak and cost energy.

In regards to Ember being a tank- I can pick out Inaros that tanks consistently and doesnt have to deal with micromanaging energy and damage reduction through a bong meter... and I'll go much further than Ember, any day.

Ember deserves more than this. Shes iconic to this game yet shes outclassed in every way once again. The window im typing in has Ember on the right side..... anyway. The point I was trying to make with this post is that there are frames who are falling way behind, buffing their survivability would be a good start. Survivability cause reworks dont come around often, and when they do, they dont always do the frame justice. At least with some more survivability more frames would see play time.

[Miyabi-sama]

В 25.11.2019 в 23:00, (PS4)GameflowPRO сказал:

Saryn has more armor, energy, and health than Ember, and she can kill more enemies, way faster, way further, and at higher levels... and she strips armor.

Wait? Buff frames cuz you're envy or what?

[Chaemyerelis]

What the hell kind of nonsense is this thread? Ember is insanely tanky and can sit in an arbitration solo for a long time and dish out a tonnnnnn of damage. Not only that but her energy economy is great if you pay attention and use her 3 when her heat hits 90%. Sorry but this seems like a huge l2p issue.

I also use saryn in arbitrations a lot and although she is amazing saryn can still get insta deleted under the right circumstances after the 30 minute mark whereas ember still brushes off damage.

The only change ember needs is something to make her 1 worth using. 

Edited November 27, 2019 by Chaemyerelis

[(PSN)NewYorkGameflow]

I never said Ember isnt tanky. I said that there are frames that can treat enemy levels where Ember falls off like a walk in the park... which makes Ember a lower tier frame to those other frames. Ember being the most recent rework should have been reworked up to par with the best of the tanky, and damage frames since thats what shes built to do. Also, I never said that Ember has no damage output, but compare to other frames shes nothing special... again, a lower tier frame. Maybe thats how DE wants Ember, I dont know. Some people may say that tanky frames like Inaros are broken... well, I dont see DE complaining about them, until they do I will compare other frames to them. All id like to see is more balance across frames. Maybe Ember was a bad example since shes much more tanky than she was, but shes far from being up to par with the best of them. Who knows... its not my game, DE will decide in the end.