Squishy frames have no place in future content

[MixtheBlender]

I'm not talking about warframes being squishy base on build stats. I'm talking about frames that have no ability to protect themselves directly from the high damage deal by the high level enemies. This transitions directly from the newest update Old Blood where Kuva Lich made it easier for squishy frames to get instantly killed.

The most recent two frames that got reworked are Ember and Vauban. Simply take each one to run a lvl 5 kuva lich infected mission and you will know the difference between heaven and hell. New Ember is fit for dealing with Kuva Lich while Vauban will die to almost everything if you don't be careful.

Ember's rework covers from head to toe and it's a complete package, but Vauban's doesn't. New Ember's abilities covered both offensive and survival situation.

1. Fireball: straight for killing
2. Immolation: a protective shield with max 90% damage reduction. Augment can also share the damage reduction for team play.
3. Fire Blast: a CC and armor strip altogether. Augment heals for each enemy hit by it.
4. Inferno: decent aoe clearing. Augment gives energy orb for more ability sustain potential.

You see. She can kill, CC, and heal for survival. This is what a complete package should be. When facing lvl 100+ enemy, I don't need to worry too much about getting one shot, and if I did take too much damage, I can heal back quickly with augment and healing return. My solo run with her was smooth.

Now for Vauban: It is no doubt, that the new Vauban is very fun, but the direction of the rework is a bit narrow minded and Vauban's squishy downside is still the main problem why he is not fit to do kuva lich content. 

1. Tesla Nervos: it does CC and augment give it potential to deal high damage, but still tickles in level 100+.
2. Minelayer: 4 orbs are all okay. They cover from CC, damage, movement, and buff.
3. Photon Strike: deals high damage in strength build.
4. Bastille: pure CC.

As you can see, Vauban can CC and kill, but will have harder time than Ember when dealing with enemies that cannot be CC'd or one shot. During my lvl 5 kuva lich solo run with Vauban, I found myself have to constantly run away from enemies first and cast vortex to make sure it is safe to proceed. I use healing return, but the problem is that if I take damage, I mostly just die. Everything was under control when I can CC to protect myself while focus kill thrall. Things then went south in a blink on an eye when my lich boss showed up. I got one shot by a grenade out of nowhere once and murdered by lich 3 times. I ended up no choice but to abort because I didn't have the requiem mods and lost all murmur progress.

Older gen frames are mostly focused on one aspect of the game either CC, damage, heal or protect. Newer frames like Wisp can do all CC/damage/heal/protect in one frame and lucky new Ember got all the necessary parts to stay relevant in the new age of Warframe, but Vauban didn't and has to stay in the back watching the glorious Ember. While the new contents are mostly fine for newer frames, older frames often have no place in them. Soon, we will have New War and have to fight the toughest enemies yet aka Sentients. Older gen and squishy frames will become even more obsolete.

There are many more older gen frames that needed rework, but I think those that need immediate attention are frames that does not have survival ability.

• Hydroid
• Mag
• Banshee
• Mirage (3 is too unreliable)
• Excalibur
• Limbo (god mode or die is just not good)
• Volt (unlike Saryn that can heal)

 

 

[Miyabi-sama]

Yeah, sure, another "gimme damage resistance" thread.

This problem wouldn't exist if DE haven't released some frames capable of AFK under fire. Then DE created "challenging content" around those frames and called it a day.

We don't need DR for squishframes. We need to level the playground to create content where every frame gonna be viable.

[Ichsuisme]

I disagree. Squishy frames have a future as long as they can avoid damage or as long as they can continue to mod for their survival.

I honestly stopped using health, shield, and armor mods in exchange for rolling guard and I've been doing fine in all levels of missions. 3 seconds of invincibility is strong even with a cooldown -- plus now that I'm roll dodging more in order to proc the effect, I'm taking less damage in general. That's how I play my vauban and I don't die too often with him. CC-resistant and ability-resistant enemies do introduce problems but I'm not usually being flooded with those enemies. Other options like adaptation and quick thinking still also exist too. Now that more challenging content is being introduced, how we use defensive mods might need to change. When a squishy frame only has 300 shields and health to work with, +X% health or shields might not be the best option.

 

I don't disagree with some frames needing reworks. I've participated in a few of those discussions on these forums, but I don't think all those frames on your list deserve to be on it.

• Mag's counter pulse augment can basically prevent enemies from attacking. Plus she has two ways to restore her shields. She isn't squishy. She has access to defense.
• Mirage's survivability comes from her 1 mostly, those clones distract a lot of bullets. her 2 is a great CC and her high damage nullifies a lot of threats. she's still squishy but that's the price of her damage output, but even still, she avoids a lot of damage. Her 4th skill is a mess and that deserves a tweak, but I wouldn't call one change a whole rework.
• Limbo is basically invulnerable until you choose to take a risk -- if you ever even take that risk. The radial banish from his rift surge can limit how often you need to leave the rift too. 
• Excalibur isn't a rhino or a hildryn but he's still pretty solid. If you need blind everything and still have one CC immune enemy or lich attacking you, you shouldn't be quickly overwhelmed.

 

Hydroid is needs some work, there's a thread about him right now; other players and I have been making suggestions for him. And yes, Banshee is in a terrible spot she has nothing really going for her. Lastly, I don't play volt enough to really weigh in.

 

To be fair, I think tanky frames with lots of defensive options do have an easier time for some of this newer content, but squishy frames still have options to address their survivability. 

[Gurpgork]

I think you're pointing out the right problem but have the wrong solution. 

Giving everything a generic defensive ability homogenizes the roster. It creates a situation where basically all of the Warframes have the same gameplay. Like especially because you're advocating reworking Limbo, Volt, and Banshee, which all are about keeping themselves alive through skill-based means instead of just being able to facetank everything. 

I think the solution is to nerf enemy damage and tank abilities, and then rework mods like Adaptation. Then all Warframes will have a much more even playing field so that we don't have half the roster feeling immortal and the other half being unplayable. 

[Ikserdok]

2 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Yeah, sure, another "gimme damage resistance" thread.

This problem wouldn't exist if DE haven't released some frames capable of AFK under fire. Then DE created "challenging content" around those frames and called it a day.

We don't need DR for squishframes. We need to level the playground to create content where every frame gonna be viable.

you cant  create content for every frame to be viable as with how diversity between each freame we have, from literally something useless most time but for tryhards playable if they like this frame up to frames which are able to fit all or most roles in game at once - tank dmg and survive, heal through it, still deal good dmg to kill on high lvl, good viable cc and did I miss something? and so we have some frames which have most of this needed while also we have many old frames which have only single thing fromt hese which I mentioned and even they can have their thing pathetic and "pseudo" in compare to newer/good reworked frames and so old bad frames with only 1 thing mention dont even have that thing at all...as how bad it is now after that many changes

 

OP is right as with some frames really need drastic changes, reworks/buffs to be still playable outside low lvls, we have enough content where we are forced to take special and only frames to do this - holy four for tridolon hunts, god defense combos for hard defences (arbi excavation),  another holy four for ESO, mats farm and even for index we started to have much more choosen ones frames

yes, we are able to still run it with some different frames but alsop still if you want decent group you will see everytime same and same frame combos, no any other, just same frames everytime and this sometimes by this we get some frames limited to only one activity and mostly we got other frames not welcome at all in diferent activities

and now how we have more harder content released we cant even complete this content avaible for everyone with some/many old frames as hard content as it was written here...was created for newer frames...now if DE wanted to make playground for every frame to be viable then for 1st they shoudl nerf every most used to lvl of these bad, wors frames and then nerf content to not be so insane how we have now

but DE released and some reworked enough "OP" frames for current hard content which they started adding there is now way they will nerf this everything only to make it vialbe for older frames....only thing for what we can hope it is rework/buffs for many, mostly old very unused, useless frames

[Loza03]

I think I'm between OP and @Ichsuisme

I feel like OP is right for the current state of the game, but Ichsuisme presents a very important point - as long as one can reliably avoid damage, then being squishy is fine.

 

I think, however, the problem lies exactly there. How we avoid damage. Movement isn't a reliable way to avoid damage anymore. Sure, you can survive very well just on movement, but with Grineer, it's basically just extending your chances at a diceroll to whether you take Damage. The Corpus aren't really that much better either, since whilst you can in theory dodge their projectiles, in close-quarters they'll spam them at you, and in some cases (like the Scrambus's) they're homing shots, so dodging is a more involved endeavour - something that in a horde, you are unlikely to have space for. In other words, you're not so much meaningfully avoiding damage as you are flailing like a headless chicken and hoping it doesn't hit you a lot of the time, regardless of how skilled you are. Dodging isn't dodging, it's just 'keep moving'

The game itself, in terms of design, disincentives active dodging. How do you reliably avoid damage? Abilities. How do abilities avoid damage? By avoiding interaction with enemies. Raw Tankiness means you don't have to dodge. Invisibility prevents enemies from interacting with you. So do CC abilities. DPS nuking might as well prevent them from spawning. There's design fault on both sides.

[Miyabi-sama]

41 минуту назад, Gurpgork сказал:

I think the solution is to nerf enemy damage and tank abilities, and then rework mods like Adaptation. Then all Warframes will have a much more even playing field so that we don't have half the roster feeling immortal and the other half being unplayable. 

Can only dream of this day.

[GPrime96]

Especially when DE bringing more and more Enemies that’s Ability immune which makes Frames like Chroma or Mirage more used for the heavy Damage and possibly one shotting, or just nullify Abilities and leaving the Squishy Frame open towards death like Demolyst. Doing long Survivals is where squishier Frames have a better place (atleast outside of Arbitration), but in places like, Disruption Solo, that’s where the enemies would see you stripped down in a bad situation and mow you down at high levels while the Demolyst is running away from you. If DE would want squisher Frames as good as Tanks in newer content, they would need something that would make Tanks become less useful while making squishies a viable option at the same time.

[DarthIronclad]

Tbh is is better to rework enemy scaling as a while, but de will prob and more likely go in the direction of the ember rework, basically giving them some form of damage mitigation. While this can allow for more frame diversity,but gameplay diversity will be killed off at the same time, as it will be just activating the Dr ability while using the other abilities to do damage or cc. 

I do understand from a marketing standpoint...reworking frames can allow de to earn more money overall than just changing a math equation to balance scaling, but still enemy scaling is still a big issue in the game currently...the game prob even need a makeover... 

Edited November 27, 2019 by DarthIronclad

[EinheriarJudith]

3 hours ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Yeah, sure, another "gimme damage resistance" thread.

This problem wouldn't exist if DE haven't released some frames capable of AFK under fire. Then DE created "challenging content" around those frames and called it a day.

We don't need DR for squishframes. We need to level the playground to create content where every frame gonna be viable.

stop making so much sense ^_^.

[Noralen]

my suggestion

 

[Hypernaut1]

so give 90% DR to all frames??? isnt this game easy enough?

[zakaryx]

Personally I think this problem should be solved with teamwork. Play Ivara and give out cloak bubbles.

 

Play trinity/oberon/octavia/gara/ember with augment/nezha with augment/Nidus/ash with augment/Hildryn/titania/frost/Whoever I'm forgetting.

Every one of those frames has abilities that either negate or severely reduce damage by a large portion. Back when I started playing warframe there was a reason why almost every squad had a trinity in it to help the team actually finish the mission. Revives were daily instead of per mission so having someone actually die was a HUGE disadvantage for actually completing things.

 

 

If you're talking about solo play then I guess you're out of luck.

 

Edit*

Play nekros with augment and literally punch the soul back into someone.

Double edit*

Play Equinox in night form and give all enemies a negative damage multiplier while healing your teammates.

Edited November 27, 2019 by zakaryx

[Gurpgork]

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

so give 90% DR to all frames??? isnt this game easy enough?

It would be the wrong way to do it, but at least then we'd have a level playing field instead of massive power gaps. 

Like giving everything 90% DR isn't really okay, but Banshee having ~100x less EHP than a Gara with Adaptation isn't really okay, either. It should be a 3x difference at the most. 

[Tatann]

9 hours ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Yeah, sure, another "gimme damage resistance" thread.

This problem wouldn't exist if DE haven't released some frames capable of AFK under fire. Then DE created "challenging content" around those frames and called it a day.

We don't need DR for squishframes. We need to level the playground to create content where every frame gonna be viable.

Considering DE still gave Vauban's Bastille a limited number of enemies affected by it (or enemies simply ignoring CC), I don't see them leveling the playground.

OP is right in some way : since DE is neutering CC/damage avoiding (stealth, evasion, ...) warframes with more and more enemies ignoring abilities, only the tanks can survive constant enemy fire, AoE damage, etc...

I would like a squishy able to survive by negating enemy damage, but DE is not on this path since a long time (hence all the demands for rework of Vauban, and the feedback since the rework)

[PabloX732]

11 hours ago, MixtheBlender said:

• Hydroid
• Mag
• Banshee
• Mirage (3 is too unreliable)
• Excalibur
• Limbo (god mode or die is just not good)
• Volt (unlike Saryn that can heal)

Hydroid and banshee I totally agree with you, they need rework as soon as possible.

Mirage, the 1st ability helps you survive a lot, even in high level content, don't see a problem and I rarely Die with her.

Mag, the 4th ability gives you plenty of shiled, with [adapdation] she can keep herself alive without a problem.

Excalibur, [healing return] and [chromatic blade] keeps you alive without a problem.

limbo, it's meant to be played that way, if it's not to your like it's not your warframe to play.

volt, [capacitance] his 4th ability gives you shield and CC a entire room, with [adapdation] you're a god.

[Teridax68]

11 hours ago, Gurpgork said:

I think you're pointing out the right problem but have the wrong solution. 

Giving everything a generic defensive ability homogenizes the roster. It creates a situation where basically all of the Warframes have the same gameplay. Like especially because you're advocating reworking Limbo, Volt, and Banshee, which all are about keeping themselves alive through skill-based means instead of just being able to facetank everything. 

I think the solution is to nerf enemy damage and tank abilities, and then rework mods like Adaptation. Then all Warframes will have a much more even playing field so that we don't have half the roster feeling immortal and the other half being unplayable. 

My thoughts exactly. There is clearly a problem of enemies dealing excessive damage to warframes at higher levels, so the solution to that should be to address that excessive damage directly, not give literally every frame in the game some generic workaround just for them to be viable.

Part of the problem here as well is that when every frame's tanky, no-one is, as the end result would simply be that every frame would be powercrept to some higher EHP level that we'd then be judging everything against. Adding to that, there's then the issue of players likely complaining that higher-level content would cease to be challenging to frames who'd be able to shrug off most damage, which would then warrant a raising of enemy levels or the like, and so on and so forth ad nauseam. While there are some cases where frames likely need a rework to fit the game better (namely, every hyper-specialized frame that ceases to become viable the moment their prime contribution becomes less desirable, e.g. Loki or Nyx), homogenizing frames in order to address a systemic problem just makes the game worse for everyone, and harder to balance and design for in the future. In fact, there are a whole lot of frames right now that likely absolutely do not need a durability steroid, such as Mesa, Ember, or Gara, and just have one because it's what they need to function properly in high-level content.

Edited November 27, 2019 by Teridax68

[Loza03]

9 hours ago, Noralen said:

my suggestion

 

It's not just the frames, remember. Many of the bad habits of frames exist to counter iffy design of enemies. That doesn't change the fact the frames are poorly designed, of course, it just means that we can't only look on one side or the other - balance is, well, a balance.

A lot of games that have combat that you can meaningfully avoid damage in, by producing situations where you can dodge - in other words, even if there is a lot of enemies, they'll measure how many threats you have at any one time to let the player meaningfully process them. I've played an older game called Jedi Knight where ranged enemies would usually stand still rather than approach (which, without cover, enemies in WF often will just march forward) and, whilst it's a cursed term around here, Destiny does have a decent chunk of its enemies actively try and keep their distance, which is more realistic, but far more importantly, means that enemies are more dodgeable. Devil May Cry has enemies be fairly slow or pass you by - good enemy design lets you control the damage you take through skill.

Warframe tends to just throw enemies at the player without any stopgap. Yes, it will limit how many enemies are firing at any one time, but that's somewhat random to my understanding.

[Gurpgork]

15 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

It's not just the frames, remember. Many of the bad habits of frames exist to counter iffy design of enemies.

Yes, but there's a two way problem here that's leading to a never-ending arms race between players and enemies. Like the whole situation was that Warframes were too powerful (mostly CC at the time), which led to introducing enemies that could counter (read: negate) our abilities, which led to Warframe design switching towards more of a self buffer route, which pushed the power curve of the game,,,,,,,,,,,,

Still, the conclusion is the same. Enemy scaling and Warframe abilities should be redone until we finally have healthy player/enemy interactions again. 

[Raikh]

vor 14 Stunden schrieb Miyabi-sama:

Yeah, sure, another "gimme damage resistance" thread.

This problem wouldn't exist if DE haven't released some frames capable of AFK under fire. Then DE created "challenging content" around those frames and called it a day.

We don't need DR for squishframes. We need to level the playground to create content where every frame gonna be viable.

Surely the healthier solution.

We've come to a point where not only the difference in survivability between frames is absolutely insane but also the difference between our throughput and our survivability is absolutely out of sync.
We run way earlier into survivability  issues than we run into damage issues. You can cut straight through a 150 heavy (and way higher heavies, too) but there are a lot of frames who have trouble surviving under constant fire of level 150 enemies or can even get oneshot by more bursty enemies.

Its all fine and dandy if you have a Warframe with an amazing damage kit but then just have no consistent way to stay alive against enemies where that damage is needed.

WHich is precisely why we have this heavy emphasis of tanks. You can go fine without damage buffs, surviving is a much alrger issue for endurance runs.

There are ways to "cheat" on survivability like Protective Dash but those are pretty high maintenance and would personally describe thme as not very fun.

Groups can also create setups where the entire team gets very tanky but that is organized play, not public and especially not solo play.

Without changing how the entire framwork of enemy damage and Warframe survivability works getting a ~90% damage reduction ability seems to be the desired ticket to endurance run city. I can absolutely understand asking for sometihng like it. If I were to rework or design a Warframe in the current environment a strong damage reduction ability would be pretty much on the top of my list. Having the greatest ability drivne frame is irrelevant to me if I can't take it to 1h+ Arbi runs without constant fear of getting randomly deleted. And I simply don't enjoy beating up level 50 puppies with godslaying powers. I want to slay gods with godslaying powers.

It would however be way better if we reached a more levelled playing field where we don't need to streamline every Warframe to have a 90% damage redcution ability. It would be an effective large scale band-aid but it would at the end of the day still be a large-scale band-aid.

 

 

[Miyabi-sama]

28 минут назад, Raikh сказал:

WHich is precisely why we have this heavy emphasis of tanks.

Stop calling it "tank" ffs?

Tank is a party role of a given person to draw aggro on itself defending party. There is literally no tanks in orthodox sense in WF. They're just beef sacs. That's why I loathe Inaros with passion. He's useless in terms of teamplay.

[Gurpgork]

14 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Stop calling it "tank" ffs?

Tank is a party role of a given person to draw aggro on itself defending party. There is literally no tanks in orthodox sense in WF. They're just beef sacs. That's why I loathe Inaros with passion. He's useless in terms of teamplay.

"Tank" is the most broadly understood word to mean a durable Warframe in this community, and it has 4 letters. 

This is not a traditional RPG, and we do not have traditional RPG roles. Therefore there is a serious limit to how useful traditional RPG terminology is. 

[Sdric]

Mirage

Base health increased by 200.

Ability 3:

• Maximum damage reduction reduced by 7.5% (95% -> 87.5%).
• Grants status- and self-damage immunity.

Makes Mirage's defenses more consistent as lighting mechanics don't always act as a player would expect. Better defense against burst damage, worse defense against consistent damage.  Ups her explosive game.

Ability 4:

• While active Mirage gains full light bonus on ability 3.
• Casting speed increased by 50%.

Allows triggering to offense more consistently. While the ability will still be bad on itself, it gets some degree of consistency.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Small changes with a big impact on how to make her more reliable.

[(PSN)thegarada]

There is an issue with all frames that rely heavily on CC for survivability, since most of the time they have little armor, making damage received extremely high. If you cannot CC? You are toast. And lets face it, if you want to go beyond 10 minutes in an arbitration you do need much survivability. If you are playing for any long runs of any sort, whatever you think can go wrong, will go wrong. 

Honestly, the game is in a design dilemma. CC frames trivialize content, so DE came up with Nullifiers and arbitration drones. But to deal with Nullifiers and arbitration you need very tanky frames to handle the incoming damage, which these frames lack, so they are pushed out.

To add assault to injury, we have adaption, that already needs a tank frame to function, but decrease damage significantly. And the melee update, makes melee a far stronger damage option in content in level 100+ territory. A tanky frame can have effectively have hundreds of times more suvrvivability compared to a frame like Banshee. 

So, should we remove Nullifiers and arbitration drones? A frame like Limbo or Mag will shut down the whole map, regardless of the enemy level. Should we start giving some mobs breakbars. But that would be Nullifiers and arbitration drones, just in a different form. 

OP, fyi, all frames can heal. Just get a rank 3 magus repair. It costs like 50-60P. That is the same cost of a prime frame. Just farm one, sell it and buy magus repair. So yes, Volt and Excilbar (and every other frame) can heal.

[Ikserdok]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

 OP, fyi, all frames can heal. Just get a rank 3 magus repair. It costs like 50-60P. That is the same cost of a prime frame. Just farm one, sell it and buy magus repair. So yes, Volt and Excilbar (and every other frame) can heal.

while I agre with your full post I will add this to your end:

and at the end when every frame can heal..not every frame will ahve use of that heal if get 1shotted by his glass cannon nature