Squishy frames have no place in future content

[Raikh]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Miyabi-sama:

Stop calling it "tank" ffs?

Tank is a party role of a given person to draw aggro on itself defending party. There is literally no tanks in orthodox sense in WF. They're just beef sacs. That's why I loathe Inaros with passion. He's useless in terms of teamplay.

Should I call it "tanky frames" "Frames with high survivability" "High eHP Frames" "Frames with the survivability you would expect from a tank"?

We might not have conventional tanks in WF but that is precisely why we can call those especially tanky frames Tanks. We simply don't have a tank role in WF but we also don't have super handy word for those frames, Tank is a good fit because a tank is not just someone taking all the aggro but also someone extremely durable to take all the damage.

Not everything has to be taken into context of a classical RPG structure or in context of a role within teamplay. Especially not in games that are far from classical RPGs.

[EinheriarJudith]

17 minutes ago, Raikh said:

Should I call it "tanky frames" "Frames with high survivability" "High eHP Frames" "Frames with the survivability you would expect from a tank"?

We might not have conventional tanks in WF but that is precisely why we can call those especially tanky frames Tanks. We simply don't have a tank role in WF but we also don't have super handy word for those frames, Tank is a good fit because a tank is not just someone taking all the aggro but also someone extremely durable to take all the damage.

Not everything has to be taken into context of a classical RPG structure or in context of a role within teamplay. Especially not in games that are far from classical RPGs.

agreed, and actually we kinda do. any tanky frame using guardian derision can taunt. threat gain is just a tool for tanks to draw fire onto themselves and not something that definies the roll.

enemies have a targeting priority which people are forgetting. a tanky frame already draws enemy fire so long as they place themselves in front of less durable frame since enemies shoot the frame closest to them.

Edited November 27, 2019 by EinheriarJudith

[MrFrog9]

It's actually easier to survive with fragile frames than it's ever been, since melee weapons now give full frontal damage protection. You still can't charge into the middle of a room as Banshee but it's much easier to survive with proper positioning. In particular, tight hallways are now cake when they used to be blenders.

[(PSN)FK2P]

On 2019-11-27 at 1:07 AM, Miyabi-sama said:

Yeah, sure, another "gimme damage resistance" thread.

This problem wouldn't exist if DE haven't released some frames capable of AFK under fire. Then DE created "challenging content" around those frames and called it a day.

We don't need DR for squishframes. We need to level the playground to create content where every frame gonna be viable.

It’s a content problem not a frame problem. Some frames should be squishy as long as the game doesn’t make it ABSOLUTELY impossible not to take damage and allows their abilities to be useful enough to take them 

[Miyabi-sama]

13 часов назад, EinheriarJudith сказал:

enemies have a targeting priority which people are forgetting. a tanky frame already draws enemy fire so long as they place themselves in front of less durable frame since enemies shoot the frame closest to them.

Uh-huh, so Nyx is a tank.

14 часов назад, Raikh сказал:

Should I call it "tanky frames" "Frames with high survivability" "High eHP Frames" "Frames with the survivability you would expect from a tank"?

Just call it "useless beef". Tho quite few of them very useful in group.

[Raikh]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Miyabi-sama:

Just call it "useless beef". Tho quite few of them very useful in group.

Not sure what you're so angry about. Where has the bad Inaros touched you?

There are a few tank frames that are just bricks. There are also enough providing significant team support. Not that any form of team support matters in most situations. Most missions don't have enoguh enemies to keep one player busy, let alone 4.

I also find tanks to be quite handy as a solo palyer where my only concern ever is survivability as damage is much much later an issue. So from my PoV everything that can't take 150+ enemies to the face atleats occasionally or completely avoid them consistently is quite useless.

[Lone_Dude]

Vauban receives up to 1k armor while stripping it from enemies when using Bastille. So it's not pure cc. Add Arcane Guardian and Adaptation - even a slowpoke like me can comfortably survive on 100s. I'm not saying that I like it, or that it's super good. I'm saying that there is an option, you just gotta actually build for it and play a certain way.  

When it comes to fighting the Lich itself  - man they dumb af lmao. The only attack they have going for them is an extremely well telegraphed grab that you can avoid by rolling backwards.

Also, that one dude saying that there are no traditional tanks in Warframe is a dirty casul. Rhino actually does draw agro through his Iron Skin. Feel free to install that one mod that transfers damage from teammates to you when you're blocking and youre set. Thing is, usually, everyone is so powerful - you don't even need a tank.

Sure, some frames certainly need their kit to be updated. But yeah, as other people said, we need a total rework of enemy damage and scaling not straight up dr on all frames. Also, DE promised us shield gating, that could provide reasonable help to certain frames. Oh boy, I'm sure they didn't forget about it. HAHAHAHAHAHAhahah... 

[Tatann]

4 hours ago, MrFrog9 said:

It's actually easier to survive with fragile frames than it's ever been, since melee weapons now give full frontal damage protection. You still can't charge into the middle of a room as Banshee but it's much easier to survive with proper positioning. In particular, tight hallways are now cake when they used to be blenders.

You're right about melee blocking, but it's also right it's also easier for tougher frames.

But enemies ignoring CC still impact squishies (CC-squishies, not DPS-squishies) the most, while tanks just don't care (at worst some of them must avoid Nulli bubbles, but even Atlas can jump into it and eradicate the Nullifier)

So this isn't an advantage for squishies, it's an advantage for all, and squishies still are set back in the whole scheme. If they add bonus evasion/speed due to their smaller frame (harder to aim), but some like Vauban (who doesn't have a smaller frame) are slow like a Rhino

 

[EinheriarJudith]

6 hours ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Uh-huh, so Nyx is a tank.

nyx can tank with assimilate. but she isnt a tank her durability is poor.

[MBouh]

First, stop asking to trivialize what's fine. If *you* can't survive lvl100 grineers with any warframe, then stick with the one that are easy to play and leave the others to the good players.

Second, for the one shot problem the solution is easy: add a mod that gives shield gating, or the ability to work like nullifiers' shield.

I find it quite telling that Mag was mentioned to be unsuited to lich lvl5 when she can annihilate them better than most warframes in game.

[Gurpgork]

8 hours ago, MrFrog9 said:

It's actually easier to survive with fragile frames than it's ever been, since melee weapons now give full frontal damage protection.

That's well and good, but it was significantly easier back when Trinity provided 99% DR, the game wasn't chock full of CC immune enemies, and people tended to fight lower level enemies with much lower damage output. 

[Krenlik]

23 hours ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Stop calling it "tank" ffs?

Tank is a party role of a given person to draw aggro on itself defending party. There is literally no tanks in orthodox sense in WF. They're just beef sacs. That's why I loathe Inaros with passion. He's useless in terms of teamplay.

 

A tank is an armored vehicle that can take tremendous abuse.. pretty much invulnerable to small arms fire.  The fact that WoW decided to give taunt effects, etc, to the class that can take the abuse is unrelated to the word.

 

Edited November 28, 2019 by Krenlik

[Miyabi-sama]

Kek, OK.

Looking how everyone hurries to play smart and correct me how am I wrong in understanding the "tank" meaning (i.e. "it's a different game" or "it's a irl assault vehicle") i've got a question. Or several.

Do you really believe it is ok?

It is OK that there exists 1000% eHP gap between many frames?

Is it OK that the new meta is based on survivability?

Is it ok if new content promotes survivability meta creating more and more oneshot lvl content, bringing nonexistent balance to a "digital" extreme, bringing topics like this to life?

[Lone_Dude]

1 hour ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Kek, OK.

Looking how everyone hurries to play smart and correct me how am I wrong in understanding the "tank" meaning (i.e. "it's a different game" or "it's a irl assault vehicle") i've got a question. Or several.

Do you really believe it is ok?

It is OK that there exists 1000% eHP gap between many frames?

Is it OK that the new meta is based on survivability?

Is it ok if new content promotes survivability meta creating more and more oneshot lvl content, bringing nonexistent balance to a "digital" extreme, bringing topics like this to life?

Spoiler

THEYRE ALL OUT TO GET YA MAN, THE TANKS, IT AINT OK BUT IM WITH YOU, GO GET EM PAL, HIT EM WITH YOUR DAKIMAKURA, IT WAS FOLDED 1000 TIMES AND SOAKED IN YOGURT, SUPERIOR WEEBANESE WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION, IT HAS TO WORK, PROVE EM WRONG, DONT LOSE YOUR WAY

I'm pretty sure you haven't noticed it, since you were too busy getting called out for being objectively wrong, but some people here already stated that the game is suffering balance-wise and giving everyone DR is not a solution, it's a symptom of a huge problem that can't be solved by just reworking frames alone. Everyone is having a nice conversation, people are discussing how Melee 3.0 affects squishy frames. Everything is fine, try to breathe through your nose lmao.

Please don't bottom text the living S#&$ out of me, kek-dono.

Edited November 28, 2019 by Lone_Dude
Pleading for my life

[Raikh]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Miyabi-sama:

Do you really believe it is ok?

Nope. As I've stated I'm in alignment with the idea to rebalance survivability to close the gap and that jsut giving everyone their own 90% damage reduction is basically just a band-aid that feels all too impactful right now.

Most people here seem to be in alignment on the issue. Some people simply disagreed with your rather aggressive nitpicky notion of what a tank is supposed to be while you also didn't engage the actual argument of the post.

vor einer Stunde schrieb Miyabi-sama:

It is OK that there exists 1000% eHP gap between many frames?

Nope. It is fine for there to be tanks which are more durable than other frames. Some playstyles greatly benefit from more eHP and there is value in having tankier and squishier frames.
But the gap is definitely too large. Some frames  don't even feel enemies below 200 while others can get solidly killed by level 50s if they take the hits.

vor einer Stunde schrieb Miyabi-sama:

Is it OK that the new meta is based on survivability?

Survivability should definitely be a very important factor for defining a meta. It simply shouldn't be the only one. Ideally damage and survivability requirements are balanced in such a fashion that they grow similarly so that players have to balance damage and survivability or take risks in neglecting oen for th eother to push certain limits. Right now we lack content where we are truly pushed to optimize damage, so we can jsut go all-in on survivability without issues. And by the time optimzied damage is needed (inlcuding abiltiies and buffs) most frames providing those have no way to live through the content unless they virtually never get hit.

So there is not only an issue with the discrepancy of survivabiltiy among frames. There is also an issue with the damage and survivabiltiy balance among frames and weapons, which further reinforces the former issue and the meta.

vor einer Stunde schrieb Miyabi-sama:

Is it ok if new content promotes survivability meta creating more and more oneshot lvl content, bringing nonexistent balance to a "digital" extreme, bringing topics like this to life?

Damage to survivability sclaing issues on the enemy side. Higher level content is definitely what we need but those enemies deal way too much damage while being easily killed.

The topic is a symptom of the problem and also fair criticism, even if if doesn't offer the healthiest solution. If you don't want to rework the entire system (which would be the soundest option purely rationally, disregarding the playerbases feelings and attachments) then the next best solution would be to provide all Frames a means to live thorugh said content, as this also levels the playing field and diversifies the meta and options.

Ability disablement adds to the issue. Like I play pretty much only melee. If I wnat to do a long Disruption run I want a tanky frame. SInce Demolysts like to purge buffs from players within close proximity I can't even freely choose which tanky frame I want because if that tankiness is buff reliant I mgiht randomly die while engaging a demoylst, especially ebcause they spam purge and I can't even jsut recats immediately. SO which frame stares at me at the end of the tunnel? Inaros. The Dude-Frame who has essentially no abilities and has his entire pwoer budget in his base stats.
I play Inaros rarely, because I also like to have fun kits and might enjoy a little shorter run with a more fun frame more than a dry longer run.with Inaros. But he is just a good answer especially solo for such situations.

Its even worse for frames that rely on CC to survive. If you can't reliably apply what keeps you alive and entirely lack consistency, it seems very unappealing to even try if I can just play the safe option thats free of arbitrary discriminatory restrictions.

Edited November 28, 2019 by Raikh

[EinheriarJudith]

1 hour ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Kek, OK.

Looking how everyone hurries to play smart and correct me how am I wrong in understanding the "tank" meaning (i.e. "it's a different game" or "it's a irl assault vehicle") i've got a question. Or several.

Do you really believe it is ok?

It is OK that there exists 1000% eHP gap between many frames?

Is it OK that the new meta is based on survivability?

Is it ok if new content promotes survivability meta creating more and more oneshot lvl content, bringing nonexistent balance to a "digital" extreme, bringing topics like this to life?

more like i wanna see what DE will do without all the bandaids. i hate when they replace a power slot with <insert DR>. they wouldnt even need frames that boost guns damage if the core problem with that was fixed. right there 2 empty power slots for alot of frames.

imo i think survivability should be baked into the frames themselves and go up with the frames rank. same with weapon damage. but the kind of overhaul that would need to happen, i cant even imagine.

[Miyabi-sama]

43 минуты назад, Lone_Dude сказал:

Please don't bottom text the living S#&amp;&#036; out of me, kek-dono.

Okay, okay I am sorry for tickling your sarcasm button, really!

Now 死ね! アホ...

33 минуты назад, EinheriarJudith сказал:

imo i think survivability should be baked into the frames themselves and go up with the frames rank. same with weapon damage. but the kind of overhaul that would need to happen, i cant even imagine.

Nerf the EHP scaling on abilities and put the hard cap on damage resistance, make it unstackable.

Wow, now people die a lot! And suddenly DE realizes what direction to move: nerfing enemy damage and accuracy scaling. They may leave enemies EHP intact, otherwise it will ruin weapons parody on fragile balance.

[Lone_Dude]

32 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Okay, okay I am sorry for tickling your sarcasm button, really!

Now 死ね! アホ...

Ouch, if I wasn't wearing my anti-weeblet jacket, your teleport behind me would surely nothing personeled my ass.

Dying is not my national ideology though, pal, so feel free to 自殺率を高める on your own, like the убoгий пoзер, that you are. Woo, Mr.Worldwide!

[000l000]

Almost half (well not half but really a lot) of the players i've met in arbitrations and high level Kuva Lich hunting were playing Inaros cause (1) Players don’t want challenge and (2) DE hasn't been able to design difficult content properly.

Adding oneshot/permadeath mechanics isn't how one should design higher difficulty stuff but let be honest a second, many players can't even handle spy mission or "overcomplicated" mission mechanics like disruption (or they even stupidly leave objectives to kill Kuva thralls who are coming for them anyway).

I wish there would be better AI enemies or more cooperative objectives though, looking for weaknesses and strategies is what one is supposed to do in difficult content. For now most players i've met are only looking for stupid ways to farm faster, trying to kill their lich and leaving the team as soon as they aren't pleased with the result... Hard times.

[GPrime96]

5 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

Almost half (well not half but really a lot) of the players i've met in arbitrations were playing Inaros cause (1) Players are lazy

^^ or still die in less than half hour or a hour as Inaros in Arbitration. Seriously seen that happen.

[000l000]

il y a 7 minutes, GPrime96 a dit :

^^ or still die in less than half hour or a hour as Inaros in Arbitration. Seriously seen that happen.

I didn't even know Iranos was able to die. 🙄

[(PSN)thegarada]

On 2019-11-28 at 2:24 AM, MrFrog9 said:

It's actually easier to survive with fragile frames than it's ever been, since melee weapons now give full frontal damage protection. You still can't charge into the middle of a room as Banshee but it's much easier to survive with proper positioning. In particular, tight hallways are now cake when they used to be blenders.

This goes both ways. Tanky frames also benefit from melee weapons frontal damage protection. It is not an advantage that Banshee has over Inarios.

And as always, it is not a question of what damage you can avoid, but the damage that you cannot is what hurts you. If CC cannot shutdown every single enemy, and 1-2 hits can kill your frame, arbitrations are out of your reach. Assassinations are out of your reach. Anything that dying is an issue is out of reach. 

And with the melee rework, most late game damage is just melee and go to town on mobs. Only things that matter is armor strip, buffing damage and survivability. CC does not, even if dying is not an issue. Mag has no damage advantage over Valkyr against level 120 mobs. Valkyr does (warcry). And obliviously, far superior suvivability.

And honestly, DE already realized this is an issue. Look at the last 4 frames. Baruuk, Garuda, Gauss and Grendal are very tanky. Recently remade frames, all got buffs to survivability. This is not a coincidence. Heck, even last primes releases, Wukong and Atlas, are quite beefier than the none primes. It is more of question of when, instead of if, most frames survivability will get buffed.

[Tatann]

2 hours ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

Recently remade frames, all got buffs to survivability.

Cries over Vauban lying corpse :'(

I wish he got the same treatment (I mean real stat adjustment, not the 1000 bonus armor that lasts 10 seconds out of Bastille and that you have to patiently build), certainly not like Atlas, but Oberon level

[(PSN)Gorbihn]

The frames with decent survivability are either tanks regardless, or have abilities that can protect them. Some of the the more squishy frames have augments that can increase it, but it doesn't really help against enemies that aren't really affected by abilities. I'd say to make enemies that are more resistant to standard damage and need more abilities to take care of and then you have more of a balance as to how things work. Maybe not control as much, but debuffs and maybe damage increased from abilities would be nice. Just a thought.

[Ekemeister]

Ok. I shouldn't have to say this, but....

The devs stated multiple times that warframe was not designed around endless runs or enemies over lv 200-ish...

As a hardcore player, you sail those seas at your own risk...