"Universal" medalions and conclave weapon skins

[Sandal-Senpai]

13 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

Well, my personal theory is that they were all too happy for some random schmuck to take the blame for their poor decision making and communication skills, this time around. (Barely dodged that bullet, high-five dev team.)

There would be absolutely zero blame to take if they left the universal medalions in. And why would they denaunce their own new idea? They came up with UM, and it wouldn't make sense to sit down, talk about it, and just ruin it out of their own volition. This would serve no purpose, other than to further diatance themselves from the topic of conclave. At this point I'm willing to pay plat to get those skins, but I guess grinding conclave is the only way to get the carrot.

[Kontrollo]

1 minute ago, Sandal-Senpai said:

There would be absolutely zero blame to take if they left the universal medalions in. And why would they denaunce their own new idea? They came up with UM, and it wouldn't make sense to sit down, talk about it, and just ruin it out of their own volition. This would serve no purpose, other than to further diatance themselves from the topic of conclave. At this point I'm willing to pay plat to get those skins, but I guess grinding conclave is the only way to get the carrot.

In case you didn't see it when I first wrote it: they didn't take anything out. The status quo hasn't changed.

Well, why don't you go ask them, not me? Fact is that they haven't improved on the situation in years. Maybe they just felt like being consistent for once?

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

4 hours ago, Sandal-Senpai said:

If that was the case, people wouldn't complain as much, conclave is by far the HARDEST syndicate to get max rank in. 

   Especially since completing most challenges is impossible when only deathmatch is ever active, and even then you need to actually score to get standing. The standing cap, at least for me is 27 500 per day, which means only around 55 000 in 48h IF and I can't stress this enough IF I were to sacrifice a good few hours a day, grinding a gamemode that simply isn't fun.

No not really, I go to max in conclave standing from 0 practically every week for relic packs. Its absurdly easy to get to max standing even just playing casually over a week or two. If you need any tips or advice on completing these challenges, I'd recommend joining the conclave discord. Those guys will help you with anything!

I complete every challenge except the lunaro challenges every week on accident. These challenges are literally as simple as "score one goal" or "kill 3 enemies with abilities". Those challenges are on top of getting 2-3k standing every match. I believe you can get standing even faster than I do, but you just have to go for it, man.

[(XBOX)TheLastDax]

13 hours ago, Sandal-Senpai said:

Effort? The only effort they put is to make it not appealing (slam-spam meta, only deathmatch gamemode ever active), I'm a veteran of 8+ years and never have I seen a divide in the community as big as with the vile conclave gatekeepers. Conclave takes fun and variety of Warframe and slaps the "only meta" mentality in one game it doesn't belong.

>as a veteran of 8+ years

Warframe was only in closed beta in late 2012. It's impossible for you to be an 8+ year veteran.

[Sandal-Senpai]

50 minutes ago, (XB1)Longfinger LOKI said:

>as a veteran of 8+ years

Warframe was only in closed beta in late 2012. It's impossible for you to be an 8+ year veteran.

I count 2019 to be already over, then it's like 7 if I got to be ultra speciffic

[Sandal-Senpai]

   As Kontrollo saw like 10min ago I am capable of topping the deathmatch, but as a whole I don't consider myself good in conclave and having to join a specific discord channel just to ease the grind is a bit absurd if you ask me. Then again I do want the skins so I guess I'd take any help I can get to make my Gorgon Prisma less monochrome. 

Edited November 29, 2019 by Sandal-Senpai

[(XBOX)TheLastDax]

38 minutes ago, Sandal-Senpai said:

   As Kontrollo saw like 10min ago I am capable of topping the deathmatch, but as a whole I don't consider myself good in conclave and having to join a specific discord channel just to ease the grind is a bit absurd if you ask me. Then again I do want the skins so I guess I'd take any help I can get to make my Gorgon Prisma less monochrome. 

If you're good enough to take first place in a match right now, just imagine how easy it will be for you take first if you actually practiced! Conclave is hard at first, but it gets easier. I believe there is an open invite to the discord somewhere, but you'd have to google it as I think there are rules about linking to Discord servers on the forums.

[Kontrollo]

Off-topic: As for a preview of Prisma Gorgon skins I own (and I'm generally using Day of the Dead anyway, but that's up to taste):

 

The one nice thing Conclave skins have is the glowing lines, though, which doesn't come across very well in static pictures.

Edited November 29, 2019 by Kontrollo

[PatternistSlave]

7 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

Spinning it as being the fault of a vocal minority is dishonest

No, they said specifically it was changed because of "feedback" and you're the one being dishonest to suggest otherwise.

[Kontrollo]

1 hour ago, PatternistSlave said:

No, they said specifically it was changed because of "feedback" and you're the one being dishonest to suggest otherwise.

Am I now? The official statement was that they discussed it and it didn't feel right to progress there without participation. Yes, they mentioned feedback, too, hence the witch hunt. The decision was entirely theirs, however. But yeah, have it your way (once again).

 

At least I'm basing what I write on things that happened, not some bizarro alternate universe.

 

Spoiler

 

 

P.S.: Salient little detail that I haven't seen any one of our resident pitchfork wielders talk about, either. The following is what "that one twitter guy" wrote right in response. But it's so much easier to leave out things that don't fit the narrative, right? Outrage is king, after all.

[Sandal-Senpai]

4 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

The one nice thing Conclave skins have is the glowing lines, though, which doesn't come across very well in static pictures.

   The most important part of conclave cosmetics for me is the balance of opaque and metal parts. Day of the dead won't allow for golden finish, while default prisma looks like a gold brick, conclave and some vandal variants (quanta vandal) have just the right balance for a fashionframe connaisseur. 

   if I have to use Arca Plasmor to get those skins - sorry, I can't earn them with UM's, so I do what I must, even if it means being cheese.  It's a lose/lose situation to not have them work with Teshin, being silent about it wouldn't make DE see the flipside, so here I am being vocal.

[Rubbertubtub01]

5 hours ago, Sandal-Senpai said:

   The most important part of conclave cosmetics for me is the balance of opaque and metal parts. Day of the dead won't allow for golden finish, while default prisma looks like a gold brick, conclave and some vandal variants (quanta vandal) have just the right balance for a fashionframe connaisseur. 

   if I have to use Arca Plasmor to get those skins - sorry, I can't earn them with UM's, so I do what I must, even if it means being cheese.  It's a lose/lose situation to not have them work with Teshin, being silent about it wouldn't make DE see the flipside, so here I am being vocal.

Arca Plasmor isn't even considered cheese at this point, with how brokenly overpowered melee is... 

DE just need to put 1 or 2 people on Conclave to just give it some constant tweeks that fix things people don't like. 

If you want to get Conclave standing without noticing, try being competitive. When you're in a match, try your absolute hardest to win. Since I play conclave a lot, I spend my standing on relic packs, and my standing is maxed again very quickly without even trying to max it. 

[Tyreaus]

1 hour ago, Rubbertubtub01 said:

If you want to get Conclave standing without noticing, try being competitive. When you're in a match, try your absolute hardest to win.

To expand on this a bit more:

If this advice happens not to work at some point(s), whether you end up on a losing streak or it doesn't help you focus away from the standing gain in a positive way, I'd say: screw around once in a while to break things up.

I've spent matches as Limbo just Banishing people at random. Not really trying to kill anyone. Just booping people into the Rift. Same with Equinox and sleep. Or you can try random weapons out of your arsenal, fully knowing it won't work out. See, e.g., Dex Furis and Prisma Grakata for maximum dakka.

You might not get a lot of standing, but just messing around a bit can help one relax and get back up to playing full-on, and at least you get something out of messing about.

[vomder]

It's called a UNIVERSAL SYNDICATE MEDALLION, conclave is a syndicate. Therefore it should apply. 

[PatternistSlave]

On 2019-11-29 at 2:27 PM, Kontrollo said:

Am I now?

Yup.  It's right in your post.  "player feedback".

[Kontrollo]

20 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

Yup.  It's right in your post.  "player feedback".

Alright then, wise guy. Then explain to me how if the player feedback and especially the opinion of "that one guy on twitter" was so important and we don't have the following in the game:

And in case you fail to grasp what's written there: this request was to have the exact same skin with the Conclave symbol replaced by a Lotus symbol.

 

Now here's some light reading that might be well worth your time: Argument by Selective Reading

 

No need to respond by the way, that was all rhetorical. I'd say we're done here.

[PatternistSlave]

2 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

Then explain to me how if the player feedback and especially the opinion of "that one guy on twitter" was so important

It was important enough to be cited specifically and you pretending otherwise is intellectually dishonest, like I said.

2 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

No need to respond by the way, that was all rhetorical. I'd say we're done here.

Yeah the mental gymnastics you're forced into to obfuscate responsibility don't hold up well to scrutiny.

[Xarteros]

On 2019-11-29 at 2:10 PM, Rubbertubtub01 said:

And I find it pretty funny how the PvE community don't want any DE resources on Conclave, but then complain that Conclave's S#&$, because DE don't spend time on it. This circle needs to be broken. 

Not entirely true. Largely, I find that the issues with PvE players against DE's resource input is that they are constantly spending time adding new weapons and frames to the conclave and tweaking this or that, but they aren't making any of the changes they need to in order to bring Conclave in line with the rest of the content.

I've been advocating for a few years now for DE to wipe the Conclave roster clean, add in 30-40 of our existing Tenno-design weapons to represent all the major weapon groups and combat styles and just balance those. Do what they did with Lunaro and make Warframes be nothing but a fashion choice, and maybe make some generic clones of the main abilities either as mods or as in-match pickups (like having a generic Frost globe, Volt speed, Loki Invis etc). Then, everyone gets to fight on equal footing, DE can make Conclave alerts with different modifiers (Bows only, melee only, defensive powers only etc) to entice people to try something different, and what resources they ARE putting into balance can get much more effect.

Beyond that, DE can bring more people to Conclave with more indirect PvP (like Lunaro, not just about killing each other). There could be Conclave for competitive racing, both in Obstacle courses, K Drive tracks etc. There could be game modes where opposing teams have to survive against overwhelming odds together and it's a race to which side lasts longer. They could make speedrun races to hack into spy vaults undetected, or complete challenges like our Mastery Rank tests. A lot of PvE players just don't enjoy direct combat, and would prefer there to be at least one option.

Furthermore, DE could make Conclave-friendly rooms in dojos, like a personal Lunaro arena, larger dueling rooms (for 2v2 or 3v3 etc), and perhaps some kind of system where certain 'featured' obstacle courses can earn Conclave standing for completing

[Rubbertubtub01]

3 minutes ago, Xarteros said:

Beyond that, DE can bring more people to Conclave with more indirect PvP (like Lunaro, not just about killing each other). There could be Conclave for competitive racing, both in Obstacle courses, K Drive tracks etc. There could be game modes where opposing teams have to survive against overwhelming odds together and it's a race to which side lasts longer. They could make speedrun races to hack into spy vaults undetected, or complete challenges like our Mastery Rank tests. A lot of PvE players just don't enjoy direct combat, and would prefer there to be at least one option.

This sounds like it's a VERY indirect PvP... Sounds nearly the same as people competing for the top of the current leader boards... 

4 minutes ago, Xarteros said:

Do what they did with Lunaro and make Warframes be nothing but a fashion choice, and maybe make some generic clones of the main abilities either as mods or as in-match pickups (like having a generic Frost globe, Volt speed, Loki Invis etc). Then, everyone gets to fight on equal footing

I do agree with this tho. 

[Stormdragon]

4 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

It was important enough to be cited specifically and you pretending otherwise is intellectually dishonest, like I said.

They just cited "player feedback", which believe it or not also involves threads like this one, and i'm sure there were more players openly claiming that they were happy to finally be able to get pvp rewards without playing conclave even on feedback forums, so thinking that DE made a decision based on a single player's tweet without keeping in mind comments and threads like the one posted above is just delusional.

1 hour ago, Xarteros said:

Not entirely true. Largely, I find that the issues with PvE players against DE's resource input is that they are constantly spending time adding new weapons and frames to the conclave and tweaking this or that, but they aren't making any of the changes they need to in order to bring Conclave in line with the rest of the content.

That argument by PvE players is just moot since the newest frame available in conclave is Gara (released with PoE); recently reworked frames have just been removed from conclave (Wukong, Ember and Vauban); and no weapon added around Fortuna update has been added to conclave either other than stuff that was probably on the works from before (like Tatsu, which still doesn't have a PvP stance), has been made based on another weapon (Wolf sledge on release had pvp stats really similar to Jat Kittag, so it was probably made using JK's code as a starting point), or developed to be a reward for it that ended up being put somewhere else to avoid complaints from players (Zylok is named "ConclaveLeverPistol" in the game files, but was added as an event reward and is now obtained from baro's rotations).

And as has been seen lately they aren't fixing any of its issues either.

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

3 hours ago, Xarteros said:

Not entirely true. Largely, I find that the issues with PvE players against DE's resource input is that they are constantly spending time adding new weapons and frames to the conclave and tweaking this or that, but they aren't making any of the changes they need to in order to bring Conclave in line with the rest of the content.

I've been advocating for a few years now for DE to wipe the Conclave roster clean, add in 30-40 of our existing Tenno-design weapons to represent all the major weapon groups and combat styles and just balance those. Do what they did with Lunaro and make Warframes be nothing but a fashion choice, and maybe make some generic clones of the main abilities either as mods or as in-match pickups (like having a generic Frost globe, Volt speed, Loki Invis etc). Then, everyone gets to fight on equal footing, DE can make Conclave alerts with different modifiers (Bows only, melee only, defensive powers only etc) to entice people to try something different, and what resources they ARE putting into balance can get much more effect.

Beyond that, DE can bring more people to Conclave with more indirect PvP (like Lunaro, not just about killing each other). There could be Conclave for competitive racing, both in Obstacle courses, K Drive tracks etc. There could be game modes where opposing teams have to survive against overwhelming odds together and it's a race to which side lasts longer. They could make speedrun races to hack into spy vaults undetected, or complete challenges like our Mastery Rank tests. A lot of PvE players just don't enjoy direct combat, and would prefer there to be at least one option.

Furthermore, DE could make Conclave-friendly rooms in dojos, like a personal Lunaro arena, larger dueling rooms (for 2v2 or 3v3 etc), and perhaps some kind of system where certain 'featured' obstacle courses can earn Conclave standing for completing

ah yes, "remove conclave xd" with extra steps.

[PatternistSlave]

9 hours ago, Stormdragon said:

so thinking that DE made a decision based on a single player's tweet

When did I say this?  These forums I'm sure played as much a part in their decision as that random twitter user.  Still likely do.  This tiny group of what a dozen?  That are willing to completely disregard the interests of thousands of players and frankly their own best interests for fear of change.

[Stormdragon]

9 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

When did I say this?  These forums I'm sure played as much a part in their decision as that random twitter user.  Still likely do.  This tiny group of what a dozen?  That are willing to completely disregard the interests of thousands of players and frankly their own best interests for fear of change.

You're missing the point. Players happily claiming that they will finally be able to bypass part of the game (despite knowing that DE is against it) and still get its rewards aren't "completely disregarding the interests of thousand of players", but voicing such interests instead. Their opinions count as feedback too and add up to the reasons why DE decided against UMs being used in conclave but PvE players still put all of the blame on "a dozen? That are willing to completely disregard the interests of thousands".

[PatternistSlave]

17 hours ago, Stormdragon said:

despite knowing that DE is against it

DE made Universal Medallions in the first place.  The dozen or so Conclave players were "against it".  Not "DE".

17 hours ago, Stormdragon said:

Players happily claiming that they will finally be able to bypass part of the game

No, it's you who are "missing the point".  If a game mode is so offensive that players are rejoicing at the prospect of absolutely any way to not engage with it, the answer isn't to try and force them to.  It's right in Steve's tweet that trying to force everyone to play Conclave with rewards hasn't worked.

17 hours ago, Stormdragon said:

Their opinions count as feedback too

Yeah I get the only opinions you think should matter are those of you and the dozen or so other conclave players, but your opinions are hurting the game and the wider community who are the only reason Conclave even still exists.  Would Warframe survive without Conclave?  Would Conclave survive without Warframe?  This lack of respect shown to the PvE community is disgusting.

Your unwillingness to step back and look at the bigger picture is I think the main issue here, so let's do that.  When I first met you you seemed genuinely concerned with making Conclave seem inviting and friendly.  Why did you feel that was important and how do you think the bullheaded attitude of your community toward Universal Medallions has fostered that impression?  I for one would be playing conclave and offsetting the ridiculous standing grind with the occasional UM were it not for your community's response (as small an offset that would be.  I think I have a whole like 1).  Let's say for the sake of argument there would have been more players driven away from conclave than enticed into it by UMs.  How many?  Do you really believe this number offsets the number of people like me who now have a decidedly negative impression of Conclave because of their removal and was creating that impression worth it?

Edited December 3, 2019 by PatternistSlave

[Stormdragon]

4 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

DE made Universal Medallions in the first place.  The dozen or so Conclave players were "against it".  Not "DE".

So you'll keep pushing that argument despite the feedback provided by PvE players who claimed that conclave was finally being removed with the addition of UMs and how it could have had more weight than the opinion of PvP players, specially if you keep in mind that DE has announced a new race mode to get conclave standing and they most likely want people to give it a try, even if just for the rewards, instead of seeing it dead on arrival because of the wider community's huge reject to anything that looks like a chance to lose.

Btw, got some links (other than that twitter thread) to people who were vocally enough against it to have made DE decide against their initial announcement?

4 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

No, it's you who are "missing the point".  If a game mode is so offensive that players are rejoicing at the prospect of absolutely any way to not engage with it, the answer isn't to try and force them to.  It's right in Steve's tweet that trying to force everyone to play Conclave with rewards hasn't worked.

Gonna say it again: they have announced a racing mode for conclave as an alternative way to get its stuff. They also added lunaro long ago for people who wanted to get pvp stuff without killing other tenno, and as you can see, DE is willing to try new things when it comes to providing alternative ways to get those rewards to more people. 

5 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

Yeah I get the only opinions you think should matter are those of you and the dozen or so other conclave players

Your selective reading is showing: you've just quoted "their opinions count as feedback too" in which i was talking about the opinion of PvE players, but your response is just trying to make it look like i don't care about it, which is sort of funny since my opinions have as much weight as yours when to it comes to DE's decision making.

5 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

but your opinions are hurting the game

How? These are just that, opinions. I'd give you that point if DE suddenly started quoting my feedback or that of any PvP player to justify certain changes made to the game or if any of us had a final say on DE's decision making big enough to make them dismiss the opinions of everyone else. You can be quite certain that many things would be much different around here if we had that amount of power when it comes to shaping the game.

5 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

hurting the game and the wider community who are the only reason Conclave even still exists

Are you really saying that we should be thankful of that same wider community that keeps asking for pvp to be deleted at every single chance they get to do it?

I'd say the reason why it still exists is quite simple: no investment on DE's side but still getting players (even if it's just a small amount) is still a positive return on investment.

5 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

Would Warframe survive without Conclave? 

Most likely

5 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

Would Conclave survive without Warframe? 

Who knows? We can't tell unless DE finally decided to fix its issues and add things that should be there for any sort of PvP but haven't been added in years because of reasons.

5 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

This lack of respect shown to the PvE community is disgusting.

Once again the narrative of "PvP players bad" kicks in while disregarding the lack of respect from PvE players to us who like PvP. I guess we just have to eat it all silently since any attempt to express an opinion different to that of "the majority" is labeled as toxic disrespect no matter what it is nor how it is presented.

Btw,it's quite odd to see you talking about disrespect because of a different opinion while in the same post you talk about the pvp community as "a dozen or so players" with a "bullheaded attitude".

5 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

Your unwillingness to step back and look at the bigger picture is I think the main issue here, so let's do that.

I've been looking at it for a while, and imo UMs don't do anything to fix the major flaws of conclave nor the most common reasons why people doesn't play it.

I wouldn't mind UMs being useful in conclave if PvP also provided a way to progress in the rest of the game in terms of gear acquisition (Teshin offering access to a wider selection of weapons and frame parts, bringing back catalysts as a possible end of match reward and perhaps even adding catalyst and reactor bp to teshin's offerings); resource gathering (add resource caches so players can craft stuff) and/or perhaps was turned into a safety net that allows us to choose between an RNG based grind or a goal (for example, allowing us to buy any ephemera for 132K standing) amongst some other stuff. I still can see some people throwing fits if DE made something like this even tough it wouldn't even touch the PvE side of the game and doesn't add any brand new exclusive content. 

If that ever happened, i wouldn't even mind if 2K and/or 5K universal medallions were added with a drop chance buff to those worth 1K standing.

In short, i'm sure most of us wouldn't even care about UMs as long as that also meant that PvP gets better treatment when it comes to development. But i guess i'm the one who's too bullheaded trying to push a single agenda without looking for middle points while refusing to step back and look for ways to provide options to as many people as possible that encourage PvP gameplay without making it mandatory ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

6 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

When I first met you you seemed genuinely concerned with making Conclave seem inviting and friendly.  Why did you feel that was important and how do you think the bullheaded attitude of your community toward Universal Medallions has fostered that impression?

I'm still concerned with making conclave inviting and friendly. Your stance bias just changed just because of DE's decision regarding UMs.

Projecting won't help you to make that point get across.

6 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

I for one would be playing conclave and offsetting the ridiculous standing grind with the occasional UM were it not for your community's response

These have been some of the most notable responses from my community (Trip's thread and Destined's thread are some good examples).

With these links in mind: Could you point where is the lack of respect you keep talking about? How are those views negative to the game? Or at least how these these go against the interests? Can you compare them to any of the countless posts calling for the removal of conclave just to get easy access to the skins?

Still i'd bet you'll keep trying to push the "Conclave players bad" narrative on upcoming posts after probably not reading the linked threads while you keep nitpicking from this one to push it.

6 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

Let's say for the sake of argument there would have been more players driven away from conclave than enticed into it by UMs.  How many?  Do you really believe this number offsets the number of people like me who now have a decidedly negative impression of Conclave because of their removal and was creating that impression worth it?

First: there was never a version of Universal medallions that worked for conclave, so it wasn't removed. It was just an announcement and DE decided to get back on it just like they have done plenty of times before (PvP server browser, damage 3.0, stalker mode, etc). If you want to talk about stuff that actually got removed from the game fespite doing no harm, we could talk about Catalysts being removed from conclave's end of mission rewards because of player feedback (clearly not from PvP players since most of us don't even look at the reward screen, just the score one)

Second: there is no real way to tell if the number of people enticed into conclave after spending UMs would have been enough to offset those driven away from it because of the possibility to bypass conclave, specially when it was more common to see posts claiming to be relieved to be able to bypass conclave by grinding for over a year if needed than people willing to actually play pvp and use UMs as a way to complement the PvP grind (like you). Still forums and social media in general are just a minority of the community, so anything made coming out based on it is just speculation.

---------------------

Other than that, your whole argument is just trying to put the blame somewhere which isn't constructive to the discussion. Feel free to take it to DMs if you want to talk about it, but to be honest, i really doubt that such discussion can lead somewhere, no matter if it's held privately or on public.