Reckoning - give it the Inferno treatment!

[Varzy]

I love Oberon, but Reckoning costs far too much energy for a damaging attack that barely does any meaninful damage. The fact that to maximise it (highest damage and armor stripping), you need to also use Hallowed Ground or plentiful radiation procs with Smite don't help.

Consider buffing Reckoning to only cost 10 energy per enemy, like Ember's Inferno. Consider also giving it a debuff like the blind so enemies killed have a chance to drop health orbs, like Nezha's Chakra.

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

1 hour ago, Varzy said:

I love Oberon, but Reckoning costs far too much energy for a damaging attack that barely does any meaninful damage. The fact that to maximise it (highest damage and armor stripping), you need to also use Hallowed Ground or plentiful radiation procs with Smite don't help.

Consider buffing Reckoning to only cost 10 energy per enemy, like Ember's Inferno. Consider also giving it a debuff like the blind so enemies killed have a chance to drop health orbs, like Nezha's Chakra.

Im all down for making it only cost energy based on enemies affected.

Ironically enough It does also have a secondary buff. Enemies killed reckoning it have a 25% chance to drop hp orbs. Sadly this ability becomes inert after a few levels, and if the energy change was added along with something like “enemies  affected by reckoning blind have a ____% chance to drop a health orb” then oberon would be perfect imo. 

[(XBOX)Dissodance]

Nah keep the reckoning ability as is, for players using a casting frame they have the option of using rage and his in kit healing to constantly be casting or running equilibrium and zenurik/energize to consistently maintain energy for continuous use. (if you arent being hit run a sword and shield and guardian derision, pull agro and fill your energy pool and then kill, with high enough energy pool and str you can continuously cast his heal for burst heal and survive high levels of enemy fire)

If the health orb issue is such a big deal, do what has been added to nezhas augment and create a proc/status on the enemy that lasts a few seconds on the target hit by the skill.  This will automatically increase health orb drop if the enemy is killed within that timeframe.

Reckoning isnt used for its damage.  If you are running a nuking oberon your running his flower patch augment instead and popping off 9-30K hits.  recknoning is used for armor strip and orb creation for a caster build.  for a wep build its entirely based upon as a good damage strip that interacts with other skills in his kit.  Oberon is one of the few frames in a great place that can survive high level content 160+ quite well.  Lets not play around with that.

Edit: tying energy use to his target max is an actual nerf to the skill as it is a CC and armor strip ability for large areas based upon a range/str build.  Maxing it at 10 in a full party requires more than multiple casts for an entire room

Edited November 29, 2019 by (XB1)Dissodance

[Shaburanigud]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)Dissodance said:

Nah keep the reckoning ability as is, for players using a casting frame they have the option of using rage and his in kit healing to constantly be casting or running equilibrium and zenurik/energize to consistently maintain energy for continuous use. (if you arent being hit run a sword and shield and guardian derision, pull agro and fill your energy pool and then kill, with high enough energy pool and str you can continuously cast his heal for burst heal and survive high levels of enemy fire)

If the health orb issue is such a big deal, do what has been added to nezhas augment and create a proc/status on the enemy that lasts a few seconds on the target hit by the skill.  This will automatically increase health orb drop if the enemy is killed within that timeframe.

Reckoning isnt used for its damage.  If you are running a nuking oberon your running his flower patch augment instead and popping off 9-30K hits.  recknoning is used for armor strip and orb creation for a caster build.  for a wep build its entirely based upon as a good damage strip that interacts with other skills in his kit.  Oberon is one of the few frames in a great place that can survive high level content 160+ quite well.  Lets not play around with that.

His reckoning augment can use some buffs to be honest. His 1,2,3 are all great but his 4 is really lacking.
Not the only frame who is. DE should really consider an 'augment 2.0' sometime in the future for lacking augments.

[(XBOX)Dissodance]

1 minute ago, Shaburanigud said:

His reckoning augment can use some buffs to be honest. His 1,2,3 are all great but his 4 is really lacking.
Not the only frame who is. DE should really consider an 'augment 2.0' sometime in the future for lacking augments.

Ya the augment is trash and could use an update but the skill itself is one of the few 4s in game that is useful in about every oberon build.  Modifying the augment I have no problem with or adding new augments to change the skill in different ways is great.  But a lot of these "buffs" are nerfs in disguise.

a max of 10 targets is a definitive nerf to a skill that had no max target range and provided a 2 tier CC and armor strip.

[Shaburanigud]

8 minutes ago, (XB1)Dissodance said:

Ya the augment is trash and could use an update but the skill itself is one of the few 4s in game that is useful in about every oberon build.  Modifying the augment I have no problem with or adding new augments to change the skill in different ways is great.  But a lot of these "buffs" are nerfs in disguise.

a max of 10 targets is a definitive nerf to a skill that had no max target range and provided a 2 tier CC and armor strip.

No objection there, his 4 is one of those rare skills that can contribute a little bit of everything on every situation.

Do the enemies have too much armor? Strips armor
Do the enemies deal too much damage? Blinds and applies radiation status for CC
Are there a bunch enemies with low health? Deals fair amount of AoE damage

A great skill really. Wish the augment added something new to the skill or changed it completely for a possible different play style.

[DarthIronclad]

Ash's blade storm can also benefit from an inferno treatment also maybe some other abilities as well can work well with said treatment...helps reduce energy costs and you get better control of the nuke on top of it

[Raqiya]

To be honest there's more frames in need of buffs /reworks more than Oberon.
Anyway I don't think the ability needs anything else, its honestly fine the way it is.

[Lone_Dude]

The title of that post could be used as some beat em up, fighting or character action game name.

[Varzy]

7 hours ago, (XB1)Dissodance said:

Nah keep the reckoning ability as is, for players using a casting frame they have the option of using rage and his in kit healing to constantly be casting or running equilibrium and zenurik/energize to consistently maintain energy for continuous use. (if you arent being hit run a sword and shield and guardian derision, pull agro and fill your energy pool and then kill, with high enough energy pool and str you can continuously cast his heal for burst heal and survive high levels of enemy fire)

If the health orb issue is such a big deal, do what has been added to nezhas augment and create a proc/status on the enemy that lasts a few seconds on the target hit by the skill.  This will automatically increase health orb drop if the enemy is killed within that timeframe.

Reckoning isnt used for its damage.  If you are running a nuking oberon your running his flower patch augment instead and popping off 9-30K hits.  recknoning is used for armor strip and orb creation for a caster build.  for a wep build its entirely based upon as a good damage strip that interacts with other skills in his kit.  Oberon is one of the few frames in a great place that can survive high level content 160+ quite well.  Lets not play around with that.

Edit: tying energy use to his target max is an actual nerf to the skill as it is a CC and armor strip ability for large areas based upon a range/str build.  Maxing it at 10 in a full party requires more than multiple casts for an entire room

My suggestion is to have Reckoning cost 10 energy per affected enemy, up to a maximum of 100 energy, like Ember's Inferno. This would strictly be a buff..

And yes I'm suggesting it also behave like Charkram by causing a debuff on enemies so they drop health orbs, as opposed to needing them to be killed outright.

[(XBOX)Dissodance]

17 minutes ago, Varzy said:

My suggestion is to have Reckoning cost 10 energy per affected enemy, up to a maximum of 100 energy, like Ember's Inferno. This would strictly be a buff..

And yes I'm suggesting it also behave like Charkram by causing a debuff on enemies so they drop health orbs, as opposed to needing them to be killed outright.

It wouldn't be.   if it acts like inferno it locks its target limit to 10 at maximum.  ie a nerf.  if not it would take nearly 200 energy to cover some full areas in full games. what your asking for is strictly a nerf. 

[Varzy]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)Dissodance said:

It wouldn't be.   if it acts like inferno it locks its target limit to 10 at maximum.  ie a nerf.  if not it would take nearly 200 energy to cover some full areas in full games. what your asking for is strictly a nerf. 

I think there's some crossed wires here, Inferno definitely isn't limited to 10 enemies. Inferno affects all enemies in range, but only consumes energy for up to 10. Every enemy past the first 10 are affected for free.

Making Reckoning work like this would be a considerable buff.

[(XBOX)Dissodance]

1 hour ago, Varzy said:

I think there's some crossed wires here, Inferno definitely isn't limited to 10 enemies. Inferno affects all enemies in range, but only consumes energy for up to 10. Every enemy past the first 10 are affected for free.

Making Reckoning work like this would be a considerable buff.

OK that makes sense as I was unaware inferno still targeted more.  the question still remains why even buff a skill that isn't  1) a targeted damage skill like inferno 2) requires energy on a a frame that can have near unlimited energy out the gate with just rage modded?  

even with it being a buff Oberon isn't in a place where he isn't unviable in mobs of 150+  so why is the buff even needed?    Reckoning isn't the same as inferno.  it doesn't need to be. 

the only part that would be nice would be the nezha type. proc but it isn't required as people aren't using Reckoning for orb creation.  if you wanted that you would be running nezha.

edit: if anything modify the augment that is at this time useless and either increase damage based of allies healed by renewal or reduce energy based off number of allies being healed by renewal.  

Edited November 29, 2019 by (XB1)Dissodance

[(XBOX)Dissodance]

4 hours ago, Raqiya said:

To be honest there's more frames in need of buffs /reworks more than Oberon.
Anyway I don't think the ability needs anything else, its honestly fine the way it is.

completely agree.  changes to Reckoning augment would be good.  not the skill itself.  however there are far more frames (looking at you zephyr and hydroid) in needs of retooling as opposed to Oberon,one of if not the most balanced kit Ingame 

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

11 hours ago, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

“enemies  affected by reckoning blind have a ____% chance to drop a health orb”

All abilities with a feature like this need to work that way. The secondary functions are often tied behind being the cause of death... on abilities that cap out  on their ability to kill pretty early. 

It should just be as long as you used that ability on them, then there's a chance of " " when they die. 

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

2 hours ago, (XB1)Dissodance said:

It wouldn't be.   if it acts like inferno it locks its target limit to 10 at maximum.  ie a nerf.  if not it would take nearly 200 energy to cover some full areas in full games. what your asking for is strictly a nerf. 

Inferno doesnt have a target limit. The limit is related to how much energy is spent. Inferno can hit as many targets as you see with a cap of 10 costing energy, so you never spend more then 100 energy per cast

[Raqiya]

44 minutes ago, (XB1)Dissodance said:

completely agree.  changes to Reckoning augment would be good.  not the skill itself.  however there are far more frames (looking at you zephyr and hydroid) in needs of retooling as opposed to Oberon,one of if not the most balanced kit Ingame 

Don't forget Nyx and Banshee.

[(XBOX)Dissodance]

2 hours ago, Raqiya said:

Don't forget Nyx and Banshee.

Hasn't nyx had like 2 reworks?  I dont know enough about her as Ive never played her banshee for sure though.  Her and Mirage are good for the game style when they were released but seem to be needing updates

[Raqiya]

32 minutes ago, (XB1)Dissodance said:

Hasn't nyx had like 2 reworks?  I dont know enough about her as Ive never played her banshee for sure though.  Her and Mirage are good for the game style when they were released but seem to be needing updates

Nyx's rework was nowhere near enough. She pretty much got 0 actual substantial boons from her rework besides her armour strip, which is such a dull ability.

[(PSN)NewYorkGameflow]

I really like Oberon, hes my favorite frame. Im all for him getting better, but the thought of.... his reckoning is not bad, adjusting it... it might just backfire.

If its an over the top crazy buff, im all for it. We already have frames with ridiculously powerful abilities (that DE doesnt seem to have a problem with), might as well add Ober to the list. If its something mediocre, something we have to micromanage... just leave my buddy as is and work on the augment, as mentioned above.

Or, give some love to frames that really need it.

[(XBOX)Dissodance]

6 hours ago, (PS4)GameflowPRO said:

I really like Oberon, hes my favorite frame. Im all for him getting better, but the thought of.... his reckoning is not bad, adjusting it... it might just backfire.

If its an over the top crazy buff, im all for it. We already have frames with ridiculously powerful abilities (that DE doesnt seem to have a problem with), might as well add Ober to the list. If its something mediocre, something we have to micromanage... just leave my buddy as is and work on the augment, as mentioned above.

Or, give some love to frames that really need it.

The problem with any crazy buff is it runs the risks of over inflating play of one frame over all else at higher MRs and throws a frame into nerf territory.  especially one like Oberon that has a full on good kit. na lot of the op abilities or skills on Warframes are on OK if not decent kits. 

modify the augment for utility or efficiency based off of other skills.. but even more importantly.  fix frames that aren't viable or used.  then allow for a pass of all augments and increase augment number for all frames.  

edit: you could do all sorts of things for Oberon augment that pushes kit synergy and turns Reckoning into a nuke.   turn Reckoning into a holy flare ie.  press Reckoning for 10-15 second all health healed to allies on the hallowed ground  through your renewal adds to a counter. once the timer elapses or player uses Reckoning again (release costs no energy) have all healed health do damage  with a 10x modifier in an aoe around Oberon and have a 100% to proc flame/radiation.  have it maintain his cc but to a milder form and have it strip some armor but not all as potentially he can in Reckoning current form, but in the form of  a fire proc.  this would be a buff in damage at the expense of cc/armor strip.  force a player to interact with the rest of his kit to do this damage and limit the procs to a minimum of 300 hp healed. 

Edited November 30, 2019 by (XB1)Dissodance

[Varzy]

9 hours ago, (XB1)Dissodance said:

The problem with any crazy buff is it runs the risks of over inflating play of one frame over all else at higher MRs and throws a frame into nerf territory.  especially one like Oberon that has a full on good kit. na lot of the op abilities or skills on Warframes are on OK if not decent kits. 

modify the augment for utility or efficiency based off of other skills.. but even more importantly.  fix frames that aren't viable or used.  then allow for a pass of all augments and increase augment number for all frames. 

An ability shouldn't need an augment to be good. And just because other frames need buffs doesn't mean we can't make adjustments to existing abilites.

Reckoning is pretty much only useful at high level for the armor stripping, and it takes two casts plus a cast of Hallowed Ground... that's 250 energy at base, and it only affects the enemies standing on Hallowed. The only time this is justified is against huge numbers of enemies or bosses, whereas adjusting it to be energy-per-enemy would give you a reason to use it against fewer targets. Adding the Nezha-style debuff to force-drop health orbs would give another reason to use it.

You seem to be against a buff for fear of power creep, but power creep has long been an issue for older frames like him. Ember is a prime example. The other frames -- especially the new ones -- have kits that encourage using the whole gamut of their skills. We should revisit older frames to tune them up.. He can have a lot of energy with Rage, sure, but it's by no means unlimited. Oberon has a good kit, but Reckoning is so weak and situational compared to other 100 energy cost abilities.

[GPrime96]

1 hour ago, Varzy said:

You seem to be against a buff for fear of power creep, but power creep has long been an issue for older frames like him. 

^ For sure

[(XBOX)Dissodance]

3 hours ago, Varzy said:

An ability shouldn't need an augment to be good. And just because other frames need buffs doesn't mean we can't make adjustments to existing abilites.

Reckoning is pretty much only useful at high level for the armor stripping, and it takes two casts plus a cast of Hallowed Ground... that's 250 energy at base, and it only affects the enemies standing on Hallowed. The only time this is justified is against huge numbers of enemies or bosses, whereas adjusting it to be energy-per-enemy would give you a reason to use it against fewer targets. Adding the Nezha-style debuff to force-drop health orbs would give another reason to use it.

You seem to be against a buff for fear of power creep, but power creep has long been an issue for older frames like him. Ember is a prime example. The other frames -- especially the new ones -- have kits that encourage using the whole gamut of their skills. We should revisit older frames to tune them up.. He can have a lot of energy with Rage, sure, but it's by no means unlimited. Oberon has a good kit, but Reckoning is so weak and situational compared to other 100 energy cost abilities.

Power creep is a problem yes, but thats not the reason Im against buffing reckoning.  Here is the problem:

1)  You are trying to buff a frame that is already viable when other frames require far more work. 

2) Reckoning is not a mediocre skill, it is 2 forms off CC (lift, knockdown -animation lock of multiple enemies) plus a radial blind, and plus an armor strip of 40-60% with fields

3)250 energy is nothing, why are you having energy problems on a frame with 740+ with prime flow?  So a build that plays oberon requires 250 energy to strip armor at high levels.  That is a field, a radial radiation proc per second (great CC) a lift and knockdown twice, a radial blind (possibly) and damage on top of it.   This is not a bad deal for killing level 100+ enemies.  Hell if you want to play pure caster oberon  for another 150 energy you could kill all of those enemies you just armor stripped with casting hallowed eruption on a meager 200% power strength build too.  Literally 2-3 seconds under fire in any enemy above level 80 and you are sitting above 300 energy from 0 (heal yourself or keep renewal up and begin casting again)  edit: even better hallowed eruption is a guaranteed radiation proc against all enemies in your field too.  more CC!

This isnt a fear of power creep its the reality of buffing a frame that doesnt require a buff.  If you were trying to fix a skill that A) did not work mechanically B) did not fit into the kit of a warframe I and a lot of other people would be all aboard.   If you want to modify a skill that is already a good choice to use in multiple builds then you would have a better chance adding an augment.  

Reckoning is a great skill out of the box

Edit: comparing skill usage at high level is disengenious.  Almost all frames abilities taper off at high level.  Thats not an ability being underpowered thats a problem with NPC scaling.  Buffing an ability is a bandaid, DE would have to fix scaling first (which they have already discussed doing in multiple dev streams)

Edited November 30, 2019 by (XB1)Dissodance

[(XBOX)Dissodance]

What frames 4 are you comparing to oberon? which one is more OP at high lvl enemies as compared to his?

 

Edited November 30, 2019 by (XB1)Dissodance