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Warframe Balance Is Impossible


TriggerHappyWhiteGuy
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Basically warframes are useful based off of their skill or stats and most warframes do different things <-----common knowledge

 

The DE says they want to balance all warframe to make them equally as good but the issue is that this is impossible because not all skills are simple damage based and the useful ones are just for utility and do no damage.

 

Frost will always be useful for the fact that his snow globe blocks bullets<----makes balance harder

 

Vauban's Bastille will make him crazy useful in infested missions and also in combination with frost snow globe and some good weapons makes Tower 3 defense very easy<-----this will make it harder to balance

 

Novas(molecular prime) debuff makes guns more useful at higher levels(I say higher levels because lower levels is kinda pointless when they go poof)

 

Novas Antimatter drop shooting about 20 bullets with the best mods all maxed from the acrid can do about 70-100k damage from my personal experience fighting level 100+ corpus(I also dont think there is a damage cap on this skill because it seems like I was able to get it to hit 200k-300k+ a few times after putting about 60 shots into it before it explodes.

 

Rhinos Roar is short but affects power and weapon damage

 

Rhinos Iron skin makes it so he does not get knocked down<----very useful for the no knock down part but I guess the absorbing damage makes it more worth while

 

Rhinos Stomp does decent damage but I mostly use it for when I am surround and want bullets to stop hitting me just because they go into stasis for a bit(can kill them or run)

 

Nyx absorb now takes aggro so if someone on your team goes down you can use it and make it easy for your team to revive the fallen comrade.

 

Nekros desecrate gives lots of wonderful hp orbs and can be helpful fighting infested when those few toxic ancients get near you

 

Nekros Shadow of the dead can also be helpful if you kill a few ancient healers fighting infested or just in the void.

 

Trinity's Blessing can restore shields+hp and Temp invincibility

 

Excalibur/Excalibur Prime slash dash if you cant kill them then its great way to run away from them

 

Mag/Mag Primes Pull I don't care how much damage it does the rag doll effect is good enough to make high level mobs stop shooting me and with my setup I have crazy range it only cost 17 energy, it also takes them a bit of time to get up

 

I refuse to saying that nova is overpowered because it is possible to out kill her with a few other warframes

For levels 60 and should work for lower levels and not tested yet on the higher levels, I was able to do it with Embers World on Fire(fighting infested) and I was able to do it with Saryn's Miasma, Mag and Mag Primes Pull was actually the most efficient one doing this just because the range and how many targets it effects along with it taking such low energy. These where also tested on what nova can be at her best at Mobile defense and Regular defense . It is true that this might not be possible at the higher levels to be able to out kill her but I found a way at least for the lower levels instead of complaining that she takes all my kills.  

 

 

Point of all this is that the game has very many useful utility skills making balance impossible so they should stop treating it like it is possible and just face facts that some warframes will be better/more useful then others. We just need to go and as soon as they make a good warframe just to leave as is instead of crying out NERF and makeing it less enjoyable to the point no one likes it anymore. 

 

To the Veteran players I would like to see what you think could be the best warframes for a team of 4 you can think of for fighting very high levels(125+). Seeing how you can mostly only fight high level people in endless defense try and build it for that mission type. (Looking for all possibilities so can have more then 1 of the same frame in the build), Also if not in a rush to look for another post list skills and reasons why you chose those warframes.

 

I personally would go for a team with Frost, Vauban, Rhino, and Nova

 

To the trolls: I dislike you and request that you do not comment on this, I do know that asking nicely you will comment anyways but it was worth a shot.

 

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Theres only a really small pool of warframe with 4 usefull skills.

 

Frost ? You can forma the other 3 skills, they are useless.

Nyx ? Try to use psy blades and hit something.

Banshee? Silence....

etc.

 

And De can easy fix Raw damage frames like ember or volt making them to scale better. Also De never fix only Band-aid things.

Edited by Dasmir
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What's the point of that thread ? We already know that. DE should give better skills to other warframes, such as Volt, Ember, Ash or Banshee.

The point is that the DE said that they wanted to make all warframes balanced so that why they keep nerfing good warframes and I am saying that it is impossible to balance based off of utility skills causing the unbalance so they should stop nerfing the warframes for the wrong reason. Warframes will still need tweaks to their skills but not major nerfs to because they are trying to make each frame balanced.

 

Example: I don't want Excalibur to be as useful as my Rhino and the main reason for that is Excalibur is just given to you and Rhino you have to grind for resources and blue prints.

 

Simple mechanic:harder the boss more rewarding the Warframe will be.

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The point is that the DE said that they wanted to make all warframes balanced so that why they keep nerfing good warframes and I am saying that it is impossible to balance based off of utility skills causing the unbalance so they should stop nerfing the warframes for the wrong reason. Warframes will still need tweaks to their skills but not major nerfs to because they are trying to make each frame balanced.

 

Example: I don't want Excalibur to be as useful as my Rhino and the main reason for that is Excalibur is just given to you and Rhino you have to grind for resources and blue prints.

 

Simple mechanic:harder the boss more rewarding the Warframe will be.

 

But balancing warframes doesn't mean anything. How can you balance two things that are completely different, for god's sake. Each Warframe has its own powers.

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The only way to make objective balance in a game is to give everyone the exact same stats and weapons. That said, most good games still try to balance things. Nova isn't objectively better than Volt (she technically doesn't have a hitscan damaging power, for instance), but most people would agree she is much better overall, and there is a subjective imbalance. For all the "omg-coop-don't-nerf-things" people, before you start flaming me, I said there was an imbalance. Whether or not it should be fixed is another question (I think they should, but again, that's a different matter altogether).

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They don't really have to be absolutely even. They just have to be able to 'compete', as such, or even offer something useful.

If a game like DotA with more than a hundred different heroes can have the vast majority of those heroes viable, why not Warframe? 
I understand that Warframe is PvE, not PvP, but doesn't that in fact make things easier? 

I don't think balance is impossible, I just think the devs need a bit more experience, and they gain that by feedback.

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Of course perfect warframe balance is impossible especially with number of people that play this game, each having a different opinion on how Things should be but they can always try to make it better. If i was a game dev i would center game balance around keeping things fair and not have anything gamebreaking while still trying to keep a majority of people happy with the balances. The first part would have priorities though but im not a game dev so what i am saying is probaly idealistic blaugher.

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"I refuse to saying that nova is overpowered because it is possible to out kill her with a few other warframes" 

 

Everyone knows that Nova IS overpowered.  Playing missions with Nova is a complete bore as yes, things go *poof* before I even have a chance to do much.  This is even on harder levels.  The beginning waves of Defense or Survival are trivialized by Nova.  And in later waves, if even your teammates choose to stick around, Nova can no longer spam one shot things but I dont want to wait 30 min before I feel I can really contribute to the fight.

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"I refuse to saying that nova is overpowered because it is possible to out kill her with a few other warframes" 

 

Everyone knows that Nova IS overpowered.  Playing missions with Nova is a complete bore as yes, things go *poof* before I even have a chance to do much.  This is even on harder levels.  The beginning waves of Defense or Survival are trivialized by Nova.  And in later waves, if even your teammates choose to stick around, Nova can no longer spam one shot things but I dont want to wait 30 min before I feel I can really contribute to the fight.

You should probably play with friends or people that know how to properly use Nova without having to result to spamming her Ult. You can easily play Nova and not use Molecular Prime for 10 waves or more if you wanted. The only reason a person would use it before that time is because they are too inexperienced to know how to use her properly and don't want to take the time to figure out her potential.

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The frames don't need to be balanced according to some arbitrary scale of utility and effectiveness. All they need is to play fair, and have a skillset that lets them shine at their given role. Several very successful games have shown that a player can have more fun when he feels he has tricks that are better than what other people can do in a given circumstance.

 

Of course, what makes them successful is that they allow every player to feel like that for a different circumstance. All it comes down to is making sure that every frame has a place to shine, and that none of those places are "blowing everything on the screen up with a push of a button".

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They don't really have to be absolutely even. They just have to be able to 'compete', as such, or even offer something useful.

If a game like DotA with more than a hundred different heroes can have the vast majority of those heroes viable, why not Warframe? 

I understand that Warframe is PvE, not PvP, but doesn't that in fact make things easier? 

I don't think balance is impossible, I just think the devs need a bit more experience, and they gain that by feedback.

First off I would like you to use a different example, comparing a moba to 3rd person shooter just seems kinda wrong. Second dota has hundred of champs that do basically the same thing with minor differences with skills and different animations. Third someone needs to re-explain balance to me again because the way I currently see it to achieve equilibrium between all warframes is to give them the same amount of USEFUL utility skills and take damage out of the equation, at least for now.

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The frames don't need to be balanced according to some arbitrary scale of utility and effectiveness. All they need is to play fair, and have a skillset that lets them shine at their given role. Several very successful games have shown that a player can have more fun when he feels he has tricks that are better than what other people can do in a given circumstance.

 

Of course, what makes them successful is that they allow every player to feel like that for a different circumstance. All it comes down to is making sure that every frame has a place to shine, and that none of those places are "blowing everything on the screen up with a push of a button".

Re-explain your first two sentences to me because you say" The frames don't need to be balanced according to some arbitrary scale of utility and effectiveness"  and then said "All they need is to play fair, and have a skillset that lets them shine at their given role". when I read that second sentence is sound like you want them to have a skill set that basically has utility and effectiveness based on their current role in the game.

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Re-explain your first two sentences to me because you say" The frames don't need to be balanced according to some arbitrary scale of utility and effectiveness"  and then said "All they need is to play fair, and have a skillset that lets them shine at their given role". when I read that second sentence is sound like you want them to have a skill set that basically has utility and effectiveness based on their current role in the game.

The first sentence means exactly what it says; frames shouldn't be balanced according to an arbitrary scale of utility and effectiveness. For example, just because Vauban's Bastille ability affects 12 enemies and lasts 15 seconds doesn't mean that every other CC in the game should affect 12 enemies and last 15 seconds. That kind of "balance" is not something that would benefit the game in any way.

 

The second one just means that every frame should have a skillset that allows it to shine in its own role, without making every other frame unnecessary in that role. For example, Vauban is presented as a tactical frame that focuses on crowd control, but that does not mean that you shouldn't bring any other form of CC with if you have a Vauban present.

 

Take Rhino Charge and Slash Dash for example; they're similar abilities, but far from identical, and while you could argue that one is better than the other, neither one makes the other one look like you're wasting your time and energy for using it. They also serve different purposes because the frames that they belong to have different roles.

Edited by InVermilion
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When DE said "balancing frames" they meant making OP frames a little less God Mode and other frames not as useless as the certain few. That way, skills that people dont use, will be useful in the future. How they will go about it? We're not sure yet. The plan is to have more "go-to" frames rather than a select few, which is why they said they will try and get other frames as close as they can to Vauban/Nova status. (Good "go-to" frames)

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Good points, TriggerHappyWhiteGuy.  And this is part of the reason why I don't want balance.  It's boring.  If the game was balanced, we wouldn't have all these fun abilities.

 

Everywhere you look in the human world you see 3 warring factions:  Excess, Moderation, and Austerity.  I think DE should face this fact by making environments to satisfy each faction.  So, send buffs to the excess environments.  Send nerfs to the Austerity environment.  Make some happy medium for the moderation environments.  This way, everybody is happy...ish.  You got to keep them separated ............

Edited by ThePresident777
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Good points, TriggerHappyWhiteGuy.  And this is part of the reason why I don't want balance.  It's boring.  If the game was balanced, we wouldn't have all these fun abilities.

Alright, by your logic, if you we had a frame that turned every enemy into powder, it would still be fun......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Alright, by your logic, if you we had a frame that turned every enemy into powder, it would still be fun......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Ok being realistic maybe not that strong but say like the vauban's Bastille was unlimited and now I think 15, to me seems a bit unnessary but it did not change much anyway. I did not think Original Ember was amazingly overpowered but because 1 skill did not fit they changed all. Before I only saw a few embers every once in a while but not rare and after the nerfs I havent seen them anymore. I enjoyed the original ember on the side but dont enjoy current one. I dont want them to make a bunch of Nuke skills and I also dont think everything should be god Tier, but keeping that in mind i also dont want this game never to have 1 or 2 God Tier frames for the very endgame players.<---this is kinda why I dont want a balance(probably think I am a power hungry person by now)

 

As of now based on levels some frames will be better at higher levels then others. To make it simple the more useful ones seem to be on a higher undefined tier. I use mastery rank for weapons to classify tiers and personally I like the system. I dont want to see everyone rank 0-6 walking around with the amazingly strong acrid. Because I saw how well the mastery rank worked with the weapons I suggested on the forums that warframes should have a mastery ranks instead of nerfs(even if the rank was low) and that was greatly hated on so I dropped that fast.

 

I don't know why the mastery rank is so hated on.<----DE should find out why, but resources are easier to get now and tons of weapons and warframes make it super easy to rank up. 

 

Still these are my personal opinions but I still would love for you guys to try and persuade me to think differently

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You should probably play with friends or people that know how to properly use Nova without having to result to spamming her Ult. You can easily play Nova and not use Molecular Prime for 10 waves or more if you wanted. The only reason a person would use it before that time is because they are too inexperienced to know how to use her properly and don't want to take the time to figure out her potential.

 

In void T3 def, I can't even be bothered to use M Prime unless there is a Mag or Vauban that pulls/vortexes for me.

Still prefer my guns.

Edited by fatpig84
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DE want this game became a team player where looking for objective mission. Not for kids who looking for dps competition with their "hero" and spam junk tears on forum if they are lose. 

 

Some kids said nova is op because of MP. MP doesn't work well on t3 def, just slow them. However, AD is more useful to kill monster with 20k+ hp. And yeah, those kids spam tears on forum because they're hardcore player on 1-5 wave xini then their "hero" lose on dps competition. 

 

Every warframe have unique ability and help team to complete the objective mission. If you thing your usual mission is to easy, you need more challenge such as t3 defense mission or narcissus 90 wave. 

 

My opinion this game is fun. I can choose easy mode or hard mode any time. I hope DE would release t4 mission or nightmare void mission. 

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Good points, TriggerHappyWhiteGuy.  And this is part of the reason why I don't want balance.  It's boring.  If the game was balanced, we wouldn't have all these fun abilities.

You would have loved the original Overload..  Except it was removed.  Because it was OP.  BECAUSE IT NUKED EVERY ENEMY THAT HAD SPAWNED.  This was back when Volt was a starter frame...  If you picked Volt as your starter frame, congrats!  You can now kill everything ever!  If you picked Loki or Excalibur, too bad.  For some strange and incomprehensible reason they nerfed it.  It's almost like it needed it.

 

Obviously that's an extreme case, but the point is, balance adjustments need to happen.  The frames have been getting progressively better as they've been released which would be nice except it means power creep which leaves the old ones in the dust.  Warframes obviously can't be "perfectly balanced," but making them overall equivalent is a task that people should undertake.  To not do so discourages personalization which is bad for everyone.

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You would have loved the original Overload..  Except it was removed.  Because it was OP.  BECAUSE IT NUKED EVERY ENEMY THAT HAD SPAWNED.  This was back when Volt was a starter frame...  If you picked Volt as your starter frame, congrats!  You can now kill everything ever!  If you picked Loki or Excalibur, too bad.  For some strange and incomprehensible reason they nerfed it.  It's almost like it needed it.

 

Obviously that's an extreme case, but the point is, balance adjustments need to happen.  The frames have been getting progressively better as they've been released which would be nice except it means power creep which leaves the old ones in the dust.  Warframes obviously can't be "perfectly balanced," but making them overall equivalent is a task that people should undertake.  To not do so discourages personalization which is bad for everyone.

 

 

My point, if you had understood it, is that one size does not fit all, which it the mistake that balance gurus often make.  You can argue all you want about balance but the fact is that a lot of people don't want your balance and others don't think it goes far enough.  So, it's best to think of the player base as three different factions and make environments suited to each faction's psycology.  Each faction has money to spend so they're all equally deserving of satisfaction which is something that balance gurus and nerfers don't seem to care about even if they do understand it.

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