Kuva Weapon Bonus Percentages - Way too many low rolls

[(XBOX)LordCuddlesXO]

Howdy,

I was looking at the weapon bonus numbers that my wife and I have received, and while I’m not a statistician, I find the odds extremely low that we would be getting so many 25% bonuses.  
 

My wife’s rolls: 40, 55, 35, 25, 32, 30, 25, 52, 28, 29

My rolls: 37, 51, 27, 25, 29, 25, 25

It’s my rolls that really started to make me question it.  5 rolls in a row in the 20’s, with 3 of them being 25!  5 out of our total of 17 rolls being 25.  That’s almost 30% of our rolls being the lowest possible when the odds of a 25% is 2.7%!  And 9 of the 17 rolls are in the 20’s, 53% of rolls, when getting a 25-29 is 14%.
 

The wiki stats: “The amount of this damage is random, ranging from 25-60%...”   I’m assuming it was an even distribution, but maybe it’s heavily weighted to the low end?

Anyone seen something similar or know that the distribution is not even?

Thanks

 

[Lone_Dude]

My first 2 weapons had 50%ish bonuses. All the weapons I got after that, which is like 3 or 4 are around 25%. I still think that I'm lucky tho, since I at least didn't get 6 dupes(I got those weaps before the update that made it so you can't get 2 same weaps in a row) lmao.

The whole system is built to force player into a never-ending grind, so I wouldn't be surprised if some CRIMINALS(psst, good guys dataminers) discovered that your chances to get higher rolls are _{^{EXTREMELY LOW FOR A REASON.}} Kinda hard to trust certain individuals after forma drop rates thing, new frames coming out hidden behind grindwalls that are magically fixed 2 weeks later lol and rivens just existing.

But it has same chances of just being RNG. Everything is random and you can't blame anyone but yourself for not being blessed with luck, since it's always one the side of Yoshikage Kira I guess.

What makes it worse, is that we have systems in place to make the grind healthier without actually completely getting rid of it. I could go more in-depth but you probably don't care or understand it on your own, so yeah.

Edited November 29, 2019 by Lone_Dude

[Robolaser]

As you hypothesized it's most likely wheighted. I killed 20 liches with only 1 weapons above 50%, and my friends got about the same results. Which is to be expected, as frustration is a strong incentive for people to spend money in these kind of games.

 

Edited November 29, 2019 by Robolaser

[Lost_Cartographer]

The bonuses are probably weighted towards the lower end, as the weapons are likely balanced towards the lower end rolls, with anything above ~30-40% probably taking it into surplus territory all things considered

[Skaleek]

If they are weighted, we should be made aware of the weighting. This is effectively drop table data.

[Pizzarugi]

3 hours ago, Lone_Dude said:

The whole system is built to force player into a never-ending grind

Most likely to stave off content drought.

I'll ask the same question I posed on another thread like this: Would you engage in fighting Liches if they had a high chance of dropping 60% weapons and their ephemeras from the get-go? Once you get them, there's no reason to fight Liches anymore. You've exhausted everything they could offer, so you're back to slogging through level 1-60 missions or quitting until something new is added.

It's the same reason why it's so hard to make a god roll riven unless you're incredibly lucky (I've already rerolled my Fulmin riven 200 times and counting). Besides flooding the market with mods that give you the power to kill God, you'd just have one less thing to keep you invested in the game.

[Lone_Dude]

28 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Most likely to stave off content drought.

Well, duh, that's obvious. Also to boost plat purchases.

28 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

I'll ask the same question I posed on another thread like this: Would you engage in fighting Liches if they had a high chance of dropping 60% weapons and their ephemeras from the get-go? Once you get them, there's no reason to fight Liches anymore. You've exhausted everything they could offer, so you're back to slogging through level 1-60 missions or quitting until something new is added.

You're probably not asking me personally, but I'll reply to that question of yours. You can still have the grind and farming without it being 100% RNG. No need to give the player all the good stuff from the get-go. Why not create some actual progression with RNG elements? A lot of players proposed stacking elemental bonuses through Valence Transfer - even if you get a duplicate with lower % than you already have, using transfer on it provides a minimal % increase. Have that % saved on each transfer. So, for example, if you had a 25% weapon and got 4 25% dupes, after combining them you have a 35% weapon. But then you get a 50% drop. Instead of disregarding the 35% weapon completely, have the 10% that you have accumulated added on top. Add a kuva requirement for transfers on top of that. So that you pay kuva for each valence transfer. Have it scale(so first transfer, is let's say 1k kuva and the highest requirement/tier is 5k after which it doesn't go up), just like rivens, with pretty much same numbers. There you have it a 60% weapon - healthy progression, still based on RNG, uses an already existing mechanic, fits well with the Kuva theme, flows well with the requiem farming, doesn't disregard your hard work.

28 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

It's the same reason why it's so hard to make a god roll riven unless you're incredibly lucky (I've already rerolled my Fulmin riven 200 times and counting). Besides flooding the market with mods that give you the power to kill God, you'd just have one less thing to keep you invested in the game.

Rivens are basically lootboxes and using them as a positive example or comparison, is kind of uhhhh, yeah. Riven trading is rather toxic, crazy prices and "mafia-like" activity and drama are the proof. They could be fixed the same way as Lich weapons. But that won't happen since then market would crash and burn, cuz "why pay 3k plat for a riven if you can just ACTUALLY PLAY THE GAME WITHOUT HOPING FOR A 0,0000005% CHANCE THAT YOU GET LUCKY and 'craft' what you want instead ".

Edited November 29, 2019 by Lone_Dude
I learned english through anime, Lord forgive me for my mistakes

[Renzo]

29 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Most likely to stave off content drought.

I'll ask the same question I posed on another thread like this: Would you engage in fighting Liches if they had a high chance of dropping 60% weapons and their ephemeras from the get-go? Once you get them, there's no reason to fight Liches anymore. You've exhausted everything they could offer, so you're back to slogging through level 1-60 missions or quitting until something new is added.

It's the same reason why it's so hard to make a god roll riven unless you're incredibly lucky (I've already rerolled my Fulmin riven 200 times and counting). Besides flooding the market with mods that give you the power to kill God, you'd just have one less thing to keep you invested in the game.

In my case, this kuva lich system has failed badly. I managed to get all the kuva weapons (thanks to trading) in the end but it was not pretty. Before this kuva lich thing I used to play arbitrations, kuva missions (survival too) and the sorties and even some fissures. However when the update was released I spent all my time doing the liches ignoring everything else except sorties.

These days when I log in the game, I instantly feel like I don't want to play it anymore and probably just quit the game and go do something else. If I decide to stay I might or might not spawn a lich that I would kill during the day so that I could get the element I want on any of the kuva weapons I have, but on top of doing this the sorties are the only thing that I do constantly anymore. No more kuva missions, no more arbitrations, no more fissures, nothing. I am simply burned from having to rerun the same exterminates, captures, defense, interceptions and what not for the 10000th time with the only difference being slightly higher level and this mnakes the game feels like a chore.

I know I don't have to do the lich content, but as I said above I just don't want to do anything else either.

Edited November 29, 2019 by Renzo

[(PSN)IndianChiefJeff]

RNG isn't the best method to stick with in terms of elemental bonuses, Lich levels are. If DE wants to make the system rewarding, they need to tie stats to Lich levels. A level 5 Lich, if defeated in battle, would be able to provide the player with the most optimized version of the weapon they possess. It'd be more preferable over RNG any day. It should be this way, in fact.

[Pizzarugi]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)IndianChiefJeff said:

RNG isn't the best method to stick with in terms of elemental bonuses, Lich levels are. If DE wants to make the system rewarding, they need to tie stats to Lich levels. A level 5 Lich, if defeated in battle, would be able to provide the player with the most optimized version of the weapon they possess. It'd be more preferable over RNG any day. It should be this way, in fact.

It's not hard to get Lich to rank 5 though. You have to actually try to avoid ranking them up, which is almost impossible since you still have to test your requiem mod order even after getting the murmurs. I've only defeated one rank 1 Lich on the first encounter, because it happened to roll the exact same mods in the same order as the last one. Almost all the time, I get them to 5.

I propose a similar solution: Elite Lich ranks 6+. In order to create Elite Liches, you have to start feeding them kuva. Higher ranks means stronger Liches, but mission levels only go up by 5 per rank. As reward for seeking this extra challenge, you also raise the Elite Lich weapon's element stat by a percentage for every rank. The lower the weapon's base element roll, the higher the elite rank's gonna have to be if you want to max it out.

Edited November 29, 2019 by Pizzarugi

[akots]

The wiki is confused. The bonus does not seem to be random for a certain range, it is heavily skewed towards the low end for obvious reasons. It still apparently involves some pseudo-random dice rolls but the chance to get 25% do not seem to be equal to chance of getting 60%. So, strictly speaking, it does not fit the definition of random in a range. It is probably some drop chance for each percentage or percentage range. Something hypothetically like 40% chance from 25% to 30%, 30% chance from 30 to 35%, 15% chance from 35 to 40%, 10% chance from 45 to 50%, 4.9% chance from 50 to 55%, and 0.1% chance from 55 to 60%. The numbers can be estimated accurately by collecting enough data form the people or simply by DE actually posting them like they usually do once the dust settles.

Edited November 29, 2019 by akots

[000l000]

Il y a 9 heures, (PS4)IndianChiefJeff a dit :

RNG isn't the best method to stick with in terms of elemental bonuses, Lich levels are. If DE wants to make the system rewarding, they need to tie stats to Lich levels. A level 5 Lich, if defeated in battle, would be able to provide the player with the most optimized version of the weapon they possess. It'd be more preferable over RNG any day. It should be this way, in fact.

Random only isn't the best method if we can't do a thing with low RNG items. They could have allowed us to upgrade Kuva weapons with lower percentage versions as well (even by a small amount) but they didn't. Everything random isn't rewarding, it's only frustrating. We're just stuck with an awful long farm of randomly generated crappy weapons we can only sell for 7500 credits.

Something is highly wrong with how DE is handling such a tedious mechanics. Less random and more enhancement is what we need.

I mean getting the weapon you want is already such a pain, adding stupid random factors again and again is only making it worse. They're only fueling another platinium mafia, some no life players are already trying to get as many Kuva weapons as they can per day to sell the best one at insane prices (some are still not killing their own lich, which is annoying as hell to most other players, some are even leaving if they failed at finding the right requiem etc.). Let be honest one second, there's ONE thing DE systematically failed at: Anticipating players behaviours, especially the worst ones.

Is the whole Kuva lich mechanics rewarding ? Not at all, especially if a player can't play the whole damn day/night. Even ephemeras are nowhere to be found, my wife and I already have killed dozens of liches (50+), with only one ephemera. 🙄

Edited November 30, 2019 by 000l000

[(XBOX)LordCuddlesXO]

Thank you all for the replies and discussion.

Today both my wife and I got another set of 25’s!!!

That’s 3 in a row for me and 4 out of last 5.  To me, it seems like it’s not even random, it’s just give the lowest number possible.  It’s actually very frustrating.  If there is some mechanic like Lich level, or killing the larva with the same frame again or the phase of the moon, just tell me so I can adapt.  Or if there is some skewed weighting, tell me so I can decide if I want to spend my time doing Lich’s.  But to (nearly) always get the worst roll possible is just ridiculous and definitely not RNG.  

Regards,

Cuddles

[ShortCat]

11 hours ago, (XB1)LordCuddlesXO said:

To me, it seems like it’s not even random

Here are my hunts in order so far:
42, 27, 36, 25, 44, 27, 31, 44, 51, 37, 26, 35, 27, 25, 60, 25, 32, 25, 26, 45, 52, 26, 51, 35, 33, 29, 32, 30, 25, 28, 25, 45, 26...

Total: 33
Maxima: 1
Minima: 6
Elemental bonus goes from 25-60, so avarage would be 43 -> 8 rolls are above avarage; 25 are below avarage. 
While the sample size is rather small, distribution is obviously weighted towards the lower end.

[z3us32610]

I have suspected that it is weighted towards the lower numbers as well, since I have killed several dozen liches and I have received more elemental bonuses in the 20's than any other sub-set. I've had 3 above 50 (with a 60% toxin Ogris as my third weapon, which I was stoked about!) but about 1/3 of my rolls have been 29 or less.

So I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the lower numbers are weighted.

[Modorius]

Out of 26 liches, I've received 6 weapons with +25% bonus. That is 23% of all of the weapons / liches.

80% of the bonuses are below +40% (21 out of 26).
50% of the bonuses are below +30% (13 out of 26).
 

After getting all the weapons, the last 10 weapons had bonus below +35%. At least for me there is no real incentive here anymore. It feels like a waste of time.

[000l000]

I'm more concerned about us not being able to do anything with this low roll weapons (except from getting 7500 credits) than actually dropping them. DE should have implemented a way to improve elemental percentages, using a lower roll weapon to get a few more % for example. I don't even get why they're worried about us getting max Kuva weapons since almost no one is getting such high rolls on a regular basis. We're only stuck with tons of crappy weapons we've spent hours and hours to get... Not much rewarding.

DE only managed to create another source of revenue for people who can spend their days farming Kuva liches and lucky enough to not getting 25% damage bonus only. Once again, it will end with platinium and frustrate a lot of players in the process.

[(PSN)nitto420s]

Worse yet I have re done and fuse 4 and 5 times all the weapons over 50 lich to get to 60% But weapon says 57.6 58.1 worst yet I redid my weapons four and five times to get them to 60% and yet on the weapon stats says 57.3 58.1, 59.3 when it top it says 60 when at top says 60%

[NinjaZeku]

11 hours ago, (PSN)nitto420s said:

I redid my weapons four and five times to get them to 60% and yet on the weapon stats says 57.3 58.1, 59.3 when it top it says 60 when at top says 60%

Could you post screenshots showing these discrepencies?

Also, you kinda necro'd a 2019 topic, where the main issue, useless low-% weapons, was since fixed via Valence Fusion and all.

A new topic, under Bugs, may have been more appropriate.

[-LookWhatICanDo-]

RNG can be cruel

Edited February 17, 2022 by iBrent_98

[George_PPS]

Among few Kuva Weapons I have farmed, most have low 20-30% numbers. Kuva weapon system was designed at the time DE tried to nerf everything and increase grinding. I wonder if the % get better after the latest update.

[Hawk1911]

Been trying to finish off my Chakkur (however you spell it) so far the past 2 that I've gotten, technically 3, have been the exact number, 28% status... this is nonsense and again it pushes me away from wanting to do this especially given that the entire system, from the fight to the guessing of the runes is all random and really not enjoyable, let alone worth  my limited time.  I know DE likes to think everyone on the planet has all of the time in the world to play one activity for days on end without getting meaningful rewards but really, the real world outside of their office is very different than the world that they imagine.

[George_PPS]

On 2019-11-29 at 9:05 AM, (XBOX)LordCuddlesXO said:

Howdy,I was looking at the weapon bonus numbers that my wife and I have received, and while I’m not a statistician, I find the odds extremely low that we would be getting so many 25% bonuses.  

My wife’s rolls: 40, 55, 35, 25, 32, 30, 25, 52, 28, 29

My rolls: 37, 51, 27, 25, 29, 25, 25

It’s my rolls that really started to make me question it.  5 rolls in a row in the 20’s, with 3 of them being 25!  5 out of our total of 17 rolls being 25.  That’s almost 30% of our rolls being the lowest possible when the odds of a 25% is 2.7%!  And 9 of the 17 rolls are in the 20’s, 53% of rolls, when getting a 25-29 is 14%.

The wiki stats: “The amount of this damage is random, ranging from 25-60%...”   I’m assuming it was an even distribution, but maybe it’s heavily weighted to the low end?

Anyone seen something similar or know that the distribution is not even?

Thanks

Few Kuva weapons I have acquired also have very low %. This is just plain weird.