Jump to content
(PS4)Jedi_Arts_

I think Vauban is maybe just a few changes away from being really good

Recommended Posts

I'm just going to get right into the recommendations. I think a lot of them are pretty self explanatory.

#1 Tesla Nervos

  • Change it not to prevent enemies from being suspended in Bastille.

#2 Minelayer

  • Honestly, just delete Vector Pad & Flechette Orb, then bring back Concuss and Shred. They were just better abilities and did not need to leave the kit. I know this is a pretty big change, but I don't think there's any saving these abilities. 
  • Give Shred a buff so it doesn't take copious amounts of Strength to achieve armor Removal. (80% would be appropriate as that matches Nyx's 2 which was created not too long ago) This will give Vauban an instant armor strip alternative to his 4.

#3 Photon Strike

  • This ability is quite good actually, and I appreciate the scaling.
  • However, this ability wants full Armor Strip to be effective. The key to making it better is to improve his 4.

#4 Bastille

  • Remove the "Enemies Affected" stat. All enemies in radius should be suspended. Range should be the limiting factor of the CC, not Range and Strength simultaneously. His 10 meter range is low enough as is. Strength does not need to play a role in CC abilities, unless they also deal damage. There are plenty of CC abilities in game with no "Enemies Affected" stat, and Vauban does not need to be arbitrarily disadvantaged by one. However, this may require changing Repelling Bastille.
  • Buff Armor removal per second rate from 10% to 20%. It should not take a full 10 seconds at base to remove Armor. Waiting 5 seconds to achieve full Armor removal (and consequently, damage potential of Photon Strike) would be long enough.
  • Armor Removal should apply to Bastille and Vortex. Vortex needs to be able to have this function as well, otherwise you have to wait for Vortex to end before you can use Bastille on the same enemies to get any Armor Strip done. It would also allow you to cast Photon Strike while the Armor removal is still ongoing during Vortex. It just makes sense for them both to have it.

 

Let me know what ideas you may have to improve Vauban in his rework follow-up.

Edited by (PS4)Jedi_Arts_
  • Like 3
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looked awesome pre-update, was more excited for him than Ember or any other renewed/new frame, and yet I'm playing a lot of Ember lately. And haven't played Vauban besides the re-forma I did on him.

He does feel a lot better than before, but I don't know. Didn't really connect with me yet. Emphasis on yet, though. I might still tinker a bit more in the future. Maybe my build for him is not ideal yet and needs a change in order for me to enjoy him.

Either way I do like these suggestions.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I’m all for removing Flechette/Vector mines. Concuss is great but instead of shred I’d like a mini health and/or shield mine instead just to help in higher level stuff.

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Vauban is nowhere near being good atm, and i'm pretty sure DE is aware of that since they didn't even tweak him since his release. Perhaps i'm wrong but i really hope they're reworking him better instead, dude has never been popular and he'll certainly never be more popular with such an awful kit.

Edited by 000l000

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, (PS4)Jedi_Arts_ said:

Honestly, just delete Vector Pad

Hard yes.

9 hours ago, (PS4)Jedi_Arts_ said:

& Flechette Orb

Very hard no. Why on earth would you remove Flechettes? They're insanely strong, by themselves and in conjunction with his other abilities. They're uniquely dependable in Warframe, where most abilities cannot be used effectively past level 40 or so, and they're the best competition weapons have had in ages, outside of Mesa's 4 and Saryn's spores + Miasma. 

9 hours ago, (PS4)Jedi_Arts_ said:

Concuss and Shred

Wasn't one just an AoE rad proc and the other an AoE armour reduction? Because one is more CC in a kit that already is almost all CC leaving it not that much room for use and the other is something that won't be relevant until weapons can't cope, and nothing should be balanced for that point because almost no one plays level 300+ void defense for 3 hours straight.

10 hours ago, (PS4)Jedi_Arts_ said:

This ability is quite good actually, and I appreciate the scaling.

Contrary to the Flechettes, Photon Strike is wholly underwhelming. I've found it to do less damage than a Flechette needle crit and overall, why use Photon Strike when I could launch a Kuva Tonkor or Lenz shot into the mix? Same exact result, except a bigger AoE and roughly five times the damage. It's an all right ability and it looks very flashy, certainly, but mechanically it is in direct competition with guns and it will lose that fight under pretty much all circumstances.

10 hours ago, (PS4)Jedi_Arts_ said:

Remove the "Enemies Affected" stat.

Strongly in favour of this one. Bastille is a decent CC but this part makes it just unreliable enough to really hinder Vauban's gameplay flow.

The only other thing that I should say here is that Bastille's armour buff duration needs to be doubled. 10 seconds is way too short for the amount of set-up required.

  • Like 2
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Il y a 1 heure, Colyeses a dit :

Contrary to the Flechettes, Photon Strike is wholly underwhelming. I've found it to do less damage than a Flechette needle crit and overall, why use Photon Strike when I could launch a Kuva Tonkor or Lenz shot into the mix? Same exact result, except a bigger AoE and roughly five times the damage. It's an all right ability and it looks very flashy, certainly, but mechanically it is in direct competition with guns and it will lose that fight under pretty much all circumstances.

Why keeping some dull Azima terrible mechanics (unless feets are some enemies weakness) when orbital strike has been added. Truth is that the whole minelayer mechanics are dated, awkward at best (throwing a grenade at your feet to get a buff, seriously ?).

Minelayer has to go, this set of minor skills basically suck and let be honest a second, switching between skills isn't what space ninjas need - it's clunky as hell.

Orbital strike damages are also scaling but maybe they mergie flechette ability to critically strike with it and call it a day. Something should be done with its awful range too cause Vauban is now a pain to gear - All of his powers are lacking of duration, range and power - We can't solve all of his powers weaknesses with one build and Orbital strike weak range really impairs its augment mod (quite decent tbh with enough range - but totally worthless with current stats).

Until DE reworks explosive damage too maybe it would be wise to (1) stop using this awful element or (2) maybe adding additional damages depending on your energy colour or whatever so Vauban could specialize himself thus leading to more interesting combinations.

Critical ability, slightly more range (or even doubling its range if thrown into a Bastille or a Vortex - i don't mind synergies since Vauban is still lacking of these) and combine another chosen elemental type to its explosive base damage - you wouldn't mind flechette to be entirely removed from the game.

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

Why keeping some dull Azima terrible mechanics (unless feets are some enemies weakness) when orbital strike has been added.

Because orbital strikes hits once in a small area, while the Flechette lasts 25 seconds, base, targets enemies in a slightly larger radius, and deals as much damage on a crit? Seriously, Flechettes are way, way, WAY stronger than Orbital Strike overall and are not in direct competition with gunplay. I find myself using Orbital Strikes... Never. If enemies are grouped up enough to get hit by it, a heavy attack from my Rapier will kill all of them without expending any resources, while dealing over a hundred times the damage. 

Flechettes on the other hand I can just drop down somewhere and rest assured that they will deal damage and kill enemies while leaving me free to do other things. Or I can plant them strategically and ruin the enemy's day by controlling a point without even being there. Ever dropped one in a narrow corridor? Massacres everything. AND you can plant four of them. So at higher levels you just drop two per spot and it will turn into a meatgrinder. Even higher levels, you drop three. Even higher, drop four. Max level, drop four and a vortex. Everything in a large radius now gets sucked into a meatgrinder. 

They're one of the best Warframe abilities in the game at the moment without being broken OP. They're pretty much -perfect-.

29 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

Minelayer has to go, this set of minor skills basically suck and let be honest a second, switching between skills isn't what space ninjas need - it's clunky as hell.

Tether needs fixing, Overdriver is fine, Vector Pad needs to be replaced and Flechettes are really, really strong. What I will agree with though is that the control method is clunky and slow, and it's encouraging me to only use one of the four abilities as opposed to swapping on the fly. Two methods to fix this:

1) Sequential casts. Press 2 to activate minelayer, then press the number of the corresponding mine to drop it and close the ability. That way you can just quickly press 2-1 to drop a tether, 2-2 to drop a flechette, etc. 

2) Toggle casts. Press 2 to activate minelayer, then press 1 to drop a tether, then press 2 to close minelayer. This method means we have room for one less ability, but I don't think anyone will miss Vector Pad.

32 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

We can't solve all of his powers weaknesses with one build

You sure? Because I am having zero issues outside of his survivability. I've got decent range, good duration and good strength. Streamline + 3 Ability mods + Augurs is a lot of stat boost on all fronts.

33 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

you wouldn't mind flechette to be entirely removed from the game.

I absolutely would because there's no reason to use Photon Strike over your weapons. Photon Strike is pretty much unconditionally worse than your weapons. Worse ammo economy, much slower, much less damage.

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
il y a 56 minutes, Colyeses a dit :

Because orbital strikes hits once in a small area, while the Flechette lasts 25 seconds, base, targets enemies in a slightly larger radius, and deals as much damage on a crit? Seriously, Flechettes are way, way, WAY stronger than Orbital Strike overall and are not in direct competition with gunplay. I find myself using Orbital Strikes... Never. If enemies are grouped up enough to get hit by it, a heavy attack from my Rapier will kill all of them without expending any resources, while dealing over a hundred times the damage.

That's some terrible biased argument since flechette struggles with numerous enemies when orbital strike hits all of them at once. Azima mechanics is all but interesting, it can't deal headshots, it fires randomly, misses a lot of shots, mostly aim at feets etc. You struggling with grouping enough enemies doesn't mean everyone is killing enenies one by one either - especially in high level Kuva lich missions, you may have to deal with dozens enemies at once - Flechette isn't helping with that kind of situations at all.

In fact it's pretty much the opposite of what you said, flechette is actually competing with gunplay cause most weapons won't deal with dozens enenies at once. Flechette is doing absolutely nothing i can't do with any gun. And as i said flechette and Orbital are redundant, so one of them can definitely be removed entirely - the only reason i would vote for flechette is that all minelayer skills are absolutely atrocious, clunky and not much precise nor fun to use (especially this joke of a wheel).

Anyway, i don't see why orbital strike couldn't be improved the way you want either, even lingering damages could be added to add some duration. At this point i don't care about which skill is doing the best damages, i only care about which one is likely to be used and not some crappy dated clunky mechanics DE should get rid of. 😄

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, 000l000 said:

Azima mechanics is all but interesting, it can't deal headshots, it fires randomly, misses a lot of shots, mostly aim at feets etc.

Flechette isn't Azima mechanics. Yes, it fires randomly, but while doing that it also locks onto nearby enemies' heads. I constantly hear the satisfying crunch of a headshot while these things are out. Have you actually used the Flechettes yet?

2 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

especially in high level Kuva lich missions, you may have to deal with dozens enemies at once - Flechette isn't helping with that kind of situations at all.

Because the Flechette makes it so the enemies cannot group up to that level. You block one or two entryways and the enemies have to trickle in elsewhere because everything in those entryways is dead on arrival. 

And none of that takes away that the Photon Strike hits multiple enemies if they're on the same stamp-sized bit of tile. It has a seriously atrocious AoE and does not function as good clear without the assistance of Vortex, at which point every weapon in the game benefits more.

5 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

In fact it's pretty much the opposite of what you said, flechette is actually competing with gunplay cause most weapons won't deal with dozens enenies at once.

It isn't, because you can use Flechette -AND- your guns. With Photon Strike, it's one or the other. And Flechette is still better with dealing with a large number of enemies than Photon Strike unless they've been sucked up by Vortex at which point every gun in the game does equivalent or better.

6 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

Flechette is doing absolutely nothing i can't do with any gun.

Except for firing your gun while firing your gun. In opposite directions.

6 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

Anyway, i don't see why orbital strike couldn't be improved the way you want either, even lingering damages could be added to add some duration.

It could be, but that would require a massive overhaul that would end up with it just being turned into Flechette. Waste of time.

7 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

i only care about which one is likely to be used and not some crappy dated clunky mechanics DE should get rid of.

The one that's likely to be used is Flechette. I have played pretty much exclusively Vauban and I use Flechette all the time, and the Photon Strike only for fun on rare occasion when I have a full squad of enemies trapped in Bastille and stripped of all their armour. Even then, it's not necessary, because the same result can be achieved by simply stabbing once with my rapier. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
il y a 13 minutes, Colyeses a dit :

The one that's likely to be used is Flechette. I have played pretty much exclusively Vauban and I use Flechette all the time, and the Photon Strike only for fun on rare occasion when I have a full squad of enemies trapped in Bastille and stripped of all their armour. Even then, it's not necessary, because the same result can be achieved by simply stabbing once with my rapier. 

You're entitled to your own opinion, summoning the "specialist" argument is never quite relevant. It's only an arrogant way to try to shut off any kind of discussion. Since you rarely use Orbital strike i'm still wondering what kind of expertise you may have but that's another story.

 

  • Haha 1
  • Woah 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

summoning the "specialist" argument is never quite relevant.

I'm not entirely sure what that's about. I'm simply saying that in my playtime with Vauban I've gravitated very harshly towards Flechettes, with Photon Strike seeing little to no play anymore. It's big and flashy, and I like that, but it's decidedly underwhelming compared to a Flechette that autonomously secures a large number of kills over ~40 seconds when I place it right.

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After some more testing i decided to a summary of the new vauban's kit.

Nervos tesla:

Pros:
-teslas are not destroyed by nullifiers bubbles (but they doesn't affect him).
-they have no duration.
-tesla bank provide you good AOE damages.

Cons:
-multiple tesla can jump on the same ennemy.
-it's a "weak" CC, it doesn't work on important targets (boss, index, capture, lich...)
-they are too slow.
-they don't follow you if you move away from affected ennemies.
-they doesnt proc the Vauban's passive (+25% damages on CC ennemies).
-overall they doesn't do much without the augment.
-you need to charge the ability (if you want to throw all the tesla)
-redundant with the rest of the kit (vauban have stronger CC)

Minelayer:

Tether coil:
Pro:
-instant CC.
-the only Vauban's CC that work in index.
-proc Vauban's passive.
Cons:
-affect only 2 ennemies.
-redundant with the rest of the kit.
-stay atteched to dead ennemies.

Vector pad:
Pros:
-can repel ennemie.
Cons:
-can't be used on you while moving (the pad touch the ground too late, you need to slow down to use it).
-if you throw if on your feet, it aim in the wrong direction.
-can be annoying for the allies.
-overall, not usefull enough to justify his presence in Vauban's kit.

Overdriver:
Pros:
-Increase the weapons damages (also work with some abilities).
-can affect allies.
Cons:
-very impractical to use (it's hard to choose precisely your target .
-affect one target at the same time (you need to throw multiple overdrivers to buff the entire squad)
-duration is to low.
-cost too much for what it does (100 energy for th entire squad)
-require too much management (combined with the rest of the kit.

Flechette orb
Pros:
-scaling damages.
-affected by overdriver and by your passive (if ennemies are CC).
-good duration.
-can destroy nullifiers bubbles before touching it.
Cons:
-not accurate.
-small range.

Photons strike:

Pros:
-scaling damages.
-affected by your passive.

Cons:
-Base damages are too low.
-not affected by overdriver.
-explode before touching the ground
-small range (forced synergy with vortex).
-cost too much (75 energy, 175 with vortex, it's way to much for what it does).
-the augment is bland.

Bastille/Vortex:

Pros:
-good AOE CC (for trash mod only...)
-good range
-transfer ennemy armor to you (not that effective)

Cons:
-"weak" CC, it doesn't work on important targets (boss, index, capture, lich...).
-ennemy limit on bastille.
-duration is low.
-armor transfer doesn't work if ennemies are CC by another ability.
-armor is too long too transfer, require armored ennemies and cost too much too maintains for a bonus who is not that great.
-bastille collapse when you throw a vortex (look like it's only here too justify the synergy with photon strike but since it feel forced and not that effective, it's more an issue than an advantages).
-ennemies attracted by vortex can ragdoll in the walls and stay blocked.

General opinion:
-Vauban is way too squishy (i think the main problem is the way the game work in high level), as long as the devs don't address these in-game problems vauban need better stats.
-the abilities's casting time is way too long, natural talent can solve this issue, but currently, Vauban need too many ressource to be effective, the devs need to lower the requirement and give some arguments to his new kit.
-he is supposed "to be the king on CC", in reality, Vauban's CC are rather weak compared to other warframe. For example Khora's strangledome is more interesting than the integrality of the vauban's cc, it's a strong CC (it work vs a lot of target), it synergyse with his first ability (while Vauban's first ability penalize bastille due too the CC overlapping), and it can attract ennemy fire giving you indirect resistance.
-overall multiple weak CC are not better than a single strong CC. That's why Vauban doesn't excel in his speciallity (area CC). As long as endgame ennemies are immune to CC, Vauban won't be able to be on par with the top tier warframes (this is a larger problem, Vauban isn't the only one affected by this but he is one of the worst).


 

 

Edited by Icecryos

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Deleting Flechette, especially to replace it with even more CC is a big no for me. I wonder if OP has used it at high level to see how it scales.

Also Shred would be useless now with Bastille already doing the job without needing to heavily invest in strength.

Edited by Tatann

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Colyeses said:

Contrary to the Flechettes, Photon Strike is wholly underwhelming. I've found it to do less damage than a Flechette needle crit

I really disagree that Flechette does more damage than Photon Strike. Photon Strike factors enemy level into its calculation, so it can actually deal a lot of damage. There's an example on the Wiki showing how in a scenario with a level 101 enemy, it can deal like 45k damage.

With a maxed Mod TT 20pxIntensify and an incapacitated enemy at level 101, Vauban will deal 2,500 × (1 + 0.3) × (1.0 + 0.25) × (11) = 44,687.5 Blast b Blast damage.

That's pasted directly from the Wiki.

I will admit that I wasn't aware until now that Flechette uses a very similar calculation that also benefits from enemy level scaling. But I still find that its damage is rather lacking with how many shots it tends to miss. And its base base damage is 300, while Photon starts at 2,500, so there's no way Photon does less damage. In my testing, Flechettes were dealing around 4k at most on crits to Armor Stripped Enemies at level 100. Meanwhile, Photon was doing stuff like one-shotting level 100 Bombards.

I mean, if people really like Flechette that much, I don't mind if it stays. It's only one part of Minelayer. Honestly, I would be just as fine with something replacing Tether Coil, because that's pretty underwhelming, and redundant with Vortex. As long as there's something I actually want to use in Minelayer besides Overdriver.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know why, but I've had more impressive results with Flechettes than with Photon. Might be headshot + Crit. Either way, Flechette is a powerful tool that really should stay.

12 minutes ago, (PS4)Jedi_Arts_ said:

I mean, if people really like Flechette that much, I don't mind if it stays. It's only one part of Minelayer. Honestly, I would be just as fine with something replacing Tether Coil, because that's pretty underwhelming, and redundant with Vortex. As long as there's something I actually want to use in Minelayer besides Overdriver.

Even Tether Coil has a solid function in his kit but it has trouble carrying it out due to the way it works. It's not a pull like Vortex or Larva, but instead it's some kind of elastic cord that stretches to the target, and it stops pulling them once they get within a certain range. This makes them not work the way they're intended: As range amplifiers for nearby deployed tools. It's meant to grab faraway enemies and drag them into a Bastille or Flechette, but it currently really struggles to even pull something over a flat surface. If that were fixed and minelayer's controls were better, I'd be using it a hell of a lot more.

If anything should get replaced in Minelayer, it's absolutely Vector Pad. It has no relevant use and I'd rather see it replaced with a canister that spews the same green gas warframes use to resuscitate one another. AoE heal over time and automatically revives fallen allies. Excellent support tool and something to make Vauban's area lock-down even stronger. Currently if the area doesn't have a lot of cover, he can still struggle due to his lack of survivability, but if he could deploy such a canister, he could anchor himself much more solidly.

Edited by Colyeses

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Vauban is pretty decent but really only needs a look at the bastille buff coming a little slow without 250+ power strength.  His flechettes can hit for 2-3k per needle and having 2-3 in a pile destroys groups, strip armor and throw his 3 and just awe in burst.  he can hit upwards of 100K with his 3 if you strip armor.  (enemies level 125+)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Main gripe from me is his 4. Takes to long to get the armor, and more importantly it has really low armor bonus duration. While it's fine inside of the radius, its so short that you often loss it when you have to move. So your stuck with being anchored to were you threw your net, or spend 100. Would bump it to atleast have to same base duration as the nades at 25

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Le 30/11/2019 à 21:40, (PS4)Jedi_Arts_ a dit :

I really disagree that Flechette does more damage than Photon Strike. Photon Strike factors enemy level into its calculation, so it can actually deal a lot of damage. There's an example on the Wiki showing how in a scenario with a level 101 enemy, it can deal like 45k damage.

With a maxed Mod TT 20pxIntensify and an incapacitated enemy at level 101, Vauban will deal 2,500 × (1 + 0.3) × (1.0 + 0.25) × (11) = 44,687.5 Blast b Blast damage.

That's pasted directly from the Wiki.

I will admit that I wasn't aware until now that Flechette uses a very similar calculation that also benefits from enemy level scaling. But I still find that its damage is rather lacking with how many shots it tends to miss. And its base base damage is 300, while Photon starts at 2,500, so there's no way Photon does less damage. In my testing, Flechettes were dealing around 4k at most on crits to Armor Stripped Enemies at level 100. Meanwhile, Photon was doing stuff like one-shotting level 100 Bombards.

I mean, if people really like Flechette that much, I don't mind if it stays. It's only one part of Minelayer. Honestly, I would be just as fine with something replacing Tether Coil, because that's pretty underwhelming, and redundant with Vortex. As long as there's something I actually want to use in Minelayer besides Overdriver.

That's pretty much how orbital strike is working, it deals huge damage at once when flechette will take a few sec (if it can aim at your target) to kill most enemies. Both should be merged and properly balanced.

The only point OP has made is that flechette is a lingering dot, which is mostly used as a lazy chokepoint. As i said previously, any additional lingering damage on Orbital strike would work the same way (at a higher cost) so i don't get why we're stuck with two redundant skills. Orbital strike alone could work as a temporary (radiation or fire for example) lingering AoE so they could replace minelayer with something more relevant and less dated.

In the long run though Flechette is more powerful than Orbital strike, especially energy wise. You can pretty much lock a few corridors for really little energy and stay afk. If they don't remove it, they should look at its damage, energy cost, number of mines limitation or even its duration. Orbital strike is in a better spot, it can pretty much oneshot everything stuck in a Bastille without being highly spammable unless you're using its augment mod (or an efficiency/high energy build).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2019-11-29 at 7:05 PM, (PS4)Jedi_Arts_ said:

Flechette Orb

now scales with enemy level, you can easily kill with it, the only useless ability now is vector pad.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...