nit picking wisp

[Hekkatos]

I love this frame. she's so versatile, her kit is great all round, and her design is really cool.
but there are a few things that need to be addressed

• the abilities screen still shows her default skin
• she really needs her own run animation when using melee. running around on her stumps looks stupid. yes it would mean creating a new animation and not just using the same animation set that the others use but that's the price you pay for making a frame that glides.
• could we get the ability to interact with the motes and recall them if needed? it's very frustrating accidentally throwing out an unintended shock mote and having to place up to six more motes just to clear it.
   

With that out of the way, here are a couple of augment ideas for the future.

• Wil-o-wisp releases surge sparks as it travels.
• bring back an ability she lost early on. using breach surge triggers an additional aoe depending on the mote targeted.
   

Edited December 1, 2019 by Hekkatos
spelling

[(XBOX)ShadowBlood89]

1 hour ago, Hekkatos said:

the abilities screen still shows here default skin

ok an whats wrong about that as so does ever other warframe then why should wisp be an exception?

[Aadi880]

1 hour ago, Hekkatos said:

bring back an ability she lost early on. using breach surge triggers an additional aoe depending on the mote targeted.

She already does this no? The range gets doubled.

[TKDancer]

only issue with wisp that i can think of is the tick rate of sol gate, i'd much rather sol gate's dmg was reduced by 75% and have it hit 4 times/sec for same dmg/sec but with more chances to trigger statuses

[EinheriarJudith]

3 hours ago, Aadi880 said:

She already does this no? The range gets doubled.

no. what was released was that reservoir increases the range of breach surge. what they showcased before release was that each reservoir would continuously pulse an aoe depending on mote. they scrapped that for what we have now.

[EinheriarJudith]

5 hours ago, Hekkatos said:

 

• she really needs her own run animation when using melee. running around on her stumps looks stupid. yes it would mean creating a new animation and not just using the same animation set that the others use but that's the price you pay for making a frame that glides.
• could we get the ability to interact with the motes and recall them if needed? it's very frustrating accidental throwing out an unintended shock mote and having to place up to six more motes just to clear it.

they should have gone all out on her animations imo so i completely agree on that.

id rather they get rid of the whole; hold > press > hold > press > hold. it would have made sense had they kept the original synergy with breach surge but it doesnt make sense now. combine all motes into 1 and reduce max by 2. the hold function could be used to collapse all or previous motes.

[Hekkatos]

10 hours ago, (XB1)ShadowBlood89 said:

ok an whats wrong about that as so does ever other warframe then why should wisp be an exception?

the other frames actually use your current appearance. I doubled checked with Equinox and Atlas.

Edited December 1, 2019 by Hekkatos

[Hekkatos]

10 hours ago, Aadi880 said:

She already does this no? The range gets doubled.

there used to be a specific aeo that was triggered depending on which more you teleported to. that was scraped before release. may as well use the excuse of augments to bring it back.

[TenebraeAeterna]

16 hours ago, Hekkatos said:

the abilities screen still shows here default skin

I'm indifferent on this one.

16 hours ago, Hekkatos said:

she really needs her own run animation when using melee. running around on her stumps looks stupid. yes it would mean creating a new animation and not just using the same animation set that the others use but that's the price you pay for making a frame that glides.

They're not going to do this...no matter how badly we want it. It's too much work, and the only way they would ever consider it is if they were going to give the same animations to other frames within the future to justify the time taken on such. Even then, it's highly unlikely...though it would be nice to see more floating frames with that fluidity of movement.

With that said, an extremely easy fix to the awkwardness of the withered peg-walk would be to have feet materialize whenever she lands...which wouldn't take nearly as much work as the above and provide something that looks much more visibly appealing for when she's using melee. She's an ethereal frame to begin with...so ethereal feet manifesting whenever she lands seems somewhat apt, and would set her up for her future prime form too.

16 hours ago, Hekkatos said:

could we get the ability to interact with the motes and recall them if needed? it's very frustrating accidental throwing out an unintended shock mote and having to place up to six more motes just to clear it.

This would be nice.

Lag often has me tossing down the same mote from time to time.

16 hours ago, Hekkatos said:

Wil-o-wisp releases surge sparks as it travels.

This would be neat.

16 hours ago, Hekkatos said:

bring back an ability she lost early on. using breach surge triggers an additional aoe depending on the mote targeted.

Never knew about this.

[Hekkatos]

2 hours ago, TenebraeAeterna said:

They're not going to do this...no matter how badly we want it. It's too much work, and the only way they would ever consider it is if they were going to give the same animations to other frames within the future to justify the time taken on such. Even then, it's highly unlikely...though it would be nice to see more floating frames with that fluidity of movement.

this is the unfortunate reality of DE. they're about quantity over quality.
in game development animations are saved as clips and the actions you see ie idle to melee attack are creating by piping them into a flow chart and blending them (the blends are usually auto generated and you make any adjustments as necessary). you create sets for different areas of the body. so for this you'd start by replacing the animtion for her lower body and torso sets with the animation of her default walk/run animations.
then you blend to the melee attacks and check it for jank and make changes to any blends as needed.

I'd rather a studio put the time into it than try and S#&$ out as much content as possible as fast as possible. hell Old Blood should have been delayed but at least a month instead of releasing in the state it did.

but as you said. it'll never happen. it'll just become another ones of those things that turns into a legacy issue that they ignore and people make a post about every so often.
 

[TenebraeAeterna]

10 minutes ago, Hekkatos said:

this is the unfortunate reality of DE. they're about quantity over quality.

No more or less than other companies.

11 minutes ago, Hekkatos said:

in game development animations are saved as clips and the actions you see ie idle to melee attack are creating by piping them into a flow chart and blending them (the blends are usually auto generated and you make any adjustments as necessary). you create sets for different areas of the body. so for this you'd start by replacing the animtion for her lower body and torso sets with the animation of her default walk/run animations.
then you blend to the melee attacks and check it for jank and make changes to any blends as needed.

I can't speak from the position of a developer, but from the sounds of that...I can imagine it wouldn't be much better, in terms of difficulty.

14 minutes ago, Hekkatos said:

I'd rather a studio put the time into it than try and S#&$ out as much content as possible as fast as possible. hell Old Blood should have been delayed but at least a month instead of releasing in the state it did.

Some would; others wouldn't.

They're not really in the position to take too terribly long either, as they've yet to establish solid end-game content that's crafted carefully enough to keep people engaged. As it stands, the end-game is fashion frame, as much of a meme as it may be. This puts them in the awkward position where they're adding content via installments as a teaser to keep people interested, and provide their Streamers and YouTubers with content to keep pumping out, thus freely advertising the game.

There's not enough time-sinks in the game either...and the time-sinks that do exist are more-so tedious grinds than engaging, progressional, content that simply takes a while to complete. So...they really have to toss out these little chunks, or the hype is driven down and people potentially move onto new games and their Streamers and YouTube personalities have to do the same, or risk financial ruin.

That's the unfortunate position they're in...and yes, why Old Blood's first iteration came out as it did, dividing the community and fostering spite.

They have bigger issues than reworking Wisps animations for little payoff. It would please you, it would please me, it would please all Wisp mains in the game...but it's not going to stop the burnout if new content isn't released, nor if they don't ultimately implement some late-game content that's engaging enough to keep people replaying it without feeling that burnout.

A month wouldn't fix the issues with Old Blood, as it's got some foundational flaws that need addressed.

It needed several months, likely...if not an entire year and the entire system released in its entirety. As it stands, it's far too quick to burn through liches if you apply yourself...when it should be an overarching system that takes time, but is engaging enough as to not feel tedious. That's difficult to accomplish.

[Hekkatos]

56 minutes ago, TenebraeAeterna said:

I can't speak from the position of a developer, but from the sounds of that...I can imagine it wouldn't be much better, in terms of difficulty.

the difference is workflow efficiency. Wisp is one of the few that they actually would have had to put more work into for her walk/run. but it your workflow is good and depending on what software they are using a good deal of fixing her melee would be automated as you already have both animation sets there.
but it's just wishful thinking which is why I titled it nitpicking and not urgent.

 

56 minutes ago, TenebraeAeterna said:

They're not really in the position to take too terribly long either, as they've yet to establish solid end-game content that's crafted carefully enough to keep people engaged. As it stands, the end-game is fashion frame, as much of a meme as it may be. This puts them in the awkward position where they're adding content via installments as a teaser to keep people interested, and provide their Streamers and YouTubers with content to keep pumping out, thus freely advertising the game.

There's not enough time-sinks in the game either...and the time-sinks that do exist are more-so tedious grinds than engaging, progressional, content that simply takes a while to complete. So...they really have to toss out these little chunks, or the hype is driven down and people potentially move onto new games and their Streamers and YouTube personalities have to do the same, or risk financial ruin.

That's the unfortunate position they're in...and yes, why Old Blood's first iteration came out as it did, dividing the community and fostering spite.

They have bigger issues than reworking Wisps animations for little payoff. It would please you, it would please me, it would please all Wisp mains in the game...but it's not going to stop the burnout if new content isn't released, nor if they don't ultimately implement some late-game content that's engaging enough to keep people replaying it without feeling that burnout.

A month wouldn't fix the issues with Old Blood, as it's got some foundational flaws that need addressed.

It needed several months, likely...if not an entire year and the entire system released in its entirety. As it stands, it's far too quick to burn through liches if you apply yourself...when it should be an overarching system that takes time, but is engaging enough as to not feel tedious. That's difficult to accomplish.

you've pretty much hit the nail on the head there.
They see the player base dropping and instead of putting their heads down and focusing on crafting meaningful content they panic and release it in an unfinished and undercooked state. they worry people will burn through it too quickly and leave and the easiest way of extending gameplay is to add grind and rng to it. but people will inevitably burn through it quickly because DE want to include everyone in new content so they don't actually make it as difficult as it should be.

I actually think the biggest problem is the framework itself and what we're seeing is the limitation of it.
I honestly think they should pull a FFXIV and overhaul it but I know they can't as they don't have the same access to resources as that team. best we can hope for is that Empyrean has gameplay that provides enough of a challenge that it buys them time to address some of the core problems in the foundation of the game.
it's the classic problem of fast, cheap, and good. you can only pick two. I just wish it weren't the two they are clearly picking.

Edited December 1, 2019 by Hekkatos

[TenebraeAeterna]

34 minutes ago, Hekkatos said:

the difference is workflow efficiency. Wisp is one of the few that they actually would have had to put more work into for her walk/run. but it your workflow is good and depending on what software they are using a good deal of fixing her melee would be automated as you already have both animation sets there.
but it's just wishful thinking which is why I titled it nitpicking and not urgent.

Understandable, and yeah...it's certainly something that all of us Wisp mains would have adored.

Truth be told, I wouldn't mind if the animations were applied to future frames too...as there's bound to be more frames that could utilize the style of movement Wisp does. Hell, I might even play more frames if they did...maybe. That's the only way I can really see them doing it though, and why I always suggest the manifestation of feets.

38 minutes ago, Hekkatos said:

you've pretty much hit the nail on the head there.

That's good, as hitting the finger with the hammer is never an enjoyable experience.

39 minutes ago, Hekkatos said:

They see the player base dropping and instead of putting their heads down and focusing on crafting meaningful content they panic and release it in an unfinished and undercooked state. they worry people will burn through it too quickly and leave and the easiest way of extending gameplay is to add grind and rng to it. but people will inevitably burn through it quickly because DE want to include everyone in new content so they don't actually make it as difficult as it should be.

Well, I mean...they're really in a difficult position.

It's not wrong for them to feel that way, and it's terribly difficult to get people to return to a game once they've moved on...as the game is typically out of date, regardless of updates, and players have moved onto the new hotness. On the flip side, they need complex content for end-game that keeps people engaged long enough for them to actually slow their pace down...so they're dealing with a pretty tricky situation. It makes sense that they would be updating in teaser-like installments...as they pretty much have to.

It's not even simply a matter of it being too easy, as the current iteration of the Lich system is basically the same old missions on a harder difficulty with periodic assassination attempts. When the new content is, in a way, an augment of old content...you're bound to ensure that people burn out on it quickly. This should have been an overarching progressional system with several stages leading up to the climax of taking out our nemesis...with its own story-missions that start us off, and unique missions to harvest both murmurs and requiem relics.

I truly believe the parazon should have been of Orokin/Grineer origin...with our first creation of a lich resulting in us getting absolutely destroyed during a mission where it returns to pay us back for its ascension...resulting in a failure of the current mission and the activation of a quest to seek out answers regarding what the hell just happened. This should have led us into an explanation behind the liches and, ultimately, the discovery of the parazon...a tool crafted by the Grineer as a failsafe to their new chosen, in the off-chance that their ascension stripped them of their genetic servitude or they simply needed a method of properly executing an immortal. We, naturally, steal it and acquire our parazon...along with the information regarding requiem relics and the mods. This would have sent us on new, solo or multi-player, missions to collect relics and murmurs...slowly working up to that climatic boss-like battle against the nemesis who periodically works towards impeding our progress and spreading their influence.

The problem is that they needed to entice...there's a constant need to entice.

I killed around five or six liches within, I believe, the first week...and then just stopped. That should have been the length of time to kill a single lich, if not longer...but designed in a way that wasn't tedious, but engaging...a progressional step-by stem that we didn't always have access too. Perhaps we needed to assault new kuva bases that only periodically spawned to obtain our relics and murmurs, slowing the pace down as we had to keep an eye out for them. Who knows...but there are ways to slow the pace beyond just grind.

I digress though, it's just understandable that they're breaking things up into chunks as a method of enticing the masses...they kind of have to right now.

1 hour ago, Hekkatos said:

I actually think the biggest problem is the framework itself and what we're seeing is the limitation of it.
I honestly think they should pull a FFXIV and overhaul it but I know they can't as they don't have the same access to resources as that team.

Yeah,

I've often posted to the Planetside 2 team that they need to run a Kickstarter for a Planetside 3 and do it right this time...without the faults of SOE's rushed launch and bringing in the content people wanted from the start with a fresh revamp with current tech.

I'd throw down $100 on that. I think many people still would, as the game has done pretty well for itself despite all the dips and issues. I honestly think that if Daybreak ran a Kickstarter for a sequel, while factoring in costs and promising to maintain and continue development on the current, they would meet their goals. It's a phenomenal game that's never really reached its full potential...not even close.

Should DE do the same...or as you suggest, similar to FFXIV?

I don't really know...I'm not an old enough player to know. I also think they would have a lot more issues in the sense that people are heavily invested in cosmetics, their builds, etc...and overhauls of that nature typically shake things up drastically. I don't even know if you're correct on their current limitations, as it may simply be entirely an issue with the fact that they're rushing to pump out content to a ravenous community they need to keep engaged. They might have absolutely everything they need but time, for all I know.

1 hour ago, Hekkatos said:

best we can hope for is that Empyrean has gameplay that provides enough of a challenge that it buys them time to address some of the core problems in the foundation of the game.
it's the classic problem of fast, cheap, and good. you can only pick two. I just wish it weren't the two they are clearly picking.

To be fair, the Old Blood update was bare bones first iteration of a system that's supposed to be much more grand and stretch clear into Empyrean...with liches getting their own ship. I think they have a decent foundational concept for what they're aiming for, it's just a matter of whether or not they'll actually accomplish it...and to do-so, they really need a lot of revamp's to this first iteration of Old Blood.

Still very fun at the beginning...but it was a very small drop of a taste, in regards to what it could be. It needs to be slow content, a slow burn leading up to a climatic explosion after a very tense process of working towards that moment so when you take down that lich...you absolutely revel in it.

[(PSN)Gorbihn]

35 minutes ago, TenebraeAeterna said:

To be fair, the Old Blood update was bare bones first iteration of a system that's supposed to be much more grand and stretch clear into Empyrean...with liches getting their own ship. I think they have a decent foundational concept for what they're aiming for, it's just a matter of whether or not they'll actually accomplish it...and to do-so, they really need a lot of revamp's to this first iteration of Old Blood.

Still very fun at the beginning...but it was a very small drop of a taste, in regards to what it could be. It needs to be slow content, a slow burn leading up to a climatic explosion after a very tense process of working towards that moment so when you take down that lich...you absolutely revel in it.

Giving them their own boss node would have been nice.

In regard to Wisp, yes melee animations would have been nice, and being able to recall the motes would be welcomed wholeheartedly. I personally wish the sparks that come off of enemies affected by Breach would more actively find enemies. Hitting them with an automatic and watching the multitudes of sparks just fly away into nothingness is depressing as it is enraging.

[TenebraeAeterna]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Gorbihn said:

Giving them their own boss node would have been nice.

Indeed...

I kind of assume that's what they have planned, with the liches getting their own ship...but I fear that the foundation of the system itself needs a lot of work too.

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Gorbihn said:

In regard to Wisp, yes melee animations would have been nice, and being able to recall the motes would be welcomed wholeheartedly. I personally wish the sparks that come off of enemies affected by Breach would more actively find enemies. Hitting them with an automatic and watching the multitudes of sparks just fly away into nothingness is depressing as it is enraging.

Yeah...

The homing needs a little work, to say the least. They could even linger like willo'of the wisps...looming ominously and then darting towards the heads of any who enter into their proximity. It would be pretty and more effective.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

On 2019-11-30 at 5:49 AM, Hekkatos said:

 

• she really needs her own run animation when using melee. running around on her stumps looks stupid. yes it would mean creating a new animation and not just using the same animation set that the others use but that's the price you pay for making a frame that glides

bring back an ability she lost early on. using breach surge triggers an additional aoe depending on the mote targeted.
 

1. You’re oversimplifying the extent of how many animations will need to be altered for Wisp. Every. Single. Melee Stance. That’s far too much work for just one frame.

2. So you want the ability that upon reveal made many people dismiss Wisp as MR fodder. Absolutely not.

[Hekkatos]

11 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

1. You’re oversimplifying the extent of how many animations will need to be altered for Wisp. Every. Single. Melee Stance. That’s far too much work for just one frame.

2. So you want the ability that upon reveal made many people dismiss Wisp as MR fodder. Absolutely not.

why would that make people dismiss her as MR fodder?

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

2 hours ago, Hekkatos said:

why would that make people dismiss her as MR fodder?

Because she looked horrible on her first reveal.

[Hekkatos]

2 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Because she looked horrible on her first reveal.

I'm taking about that specific aspect of breach surge. why did that make her look like MR fodder?

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

6 hours ago, Hekkatos said:

I'm taking about that specific aspect of breach surge. why did that make her look like MR fodder?

Because having a third ability that was 100% dependent on the first ability is terrible design.

[(PSN)Gorbihn]

8 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Because having a third ability that was 100% dependent on the first ability is terrible design.

Grendel:

[GPrime96]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Gorbihn said:

Grendel:

Pretty sure he needs his 1 to make his 2 & 3 work.

[(PSN)Gorbihn]

2 hours ago, GPrime96 said:

Pretty sure he needs his 1 to make his 2 & 3 work.

And his 4.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

5 hours ago, (PS4)Gorbihn said:

Grendel:

Grendels different. Since you want to always be using his 1 you’ll always have access to his other abilities. Wisps 1 is completely stationary and separate from the frame, so needing that cast that just to cast her 3 was just terrible design.

[(PSN)Gorbihn]

10 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Grendels different. Since you want to always be using his 1 you’ll always have access to his other abilities. Wisps 1 is completely stationary and separate from the frame, so needing that cast that just to cast her 3 was just terrible design.

You need his one in order to use the others, and with the energy consumption rate being what it is when you have the enemies in the gut, you either don't have enemies close by (because you ate them) or no energy to use them.