Eklectus Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 For the past month since the release of the Old Blood, I've watched so much feedback on the Liches go by absolutely ignored. At this point, I highly doubt DE cares for it in favour of their own creative vision, so I'm not even bothering to try and reach out to them. Likewise, I've never actually seen anyone come out in support of the way things work now. So, I'd just like to know if any of the players here enjoy the change to Liches that occurred between their Tennocon reveal and release, particularly, the scripted instakill mechanic. Please, help me understand why DE thinks that a gameplay feature that involves you dying to progress, without giving a chance to survive based on player skill, would be enjoyable to their players. Many people joked that it's so they could show off their custom execution animation, but could that actually be the whole reason? As it stands now, their nemesis system was dead on arrival for me. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGuyver Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 As much as I like baseline level 75+ star chart stuff, running the same exterminate or capture missions has become incredibly boring. The liches have the same personalities, which has also become incredibly boring. The murmur grind is pretty painful too, now that the other two factors have become stale. Quirks are basically pointless, when you actually get one, and the liches having the same general archtype skills and WWE finishers has become a little bland. I was hoping they would have more abilities depending on the personality type and/or quirks but it's a little underwhelming. The system as a whole is a good start, and I hope they keep up with it by adding more personalities and a variety of other things. It's kept me entertained for a lot longer than most of the previous updates and I can't complain about that. 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thavie Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 Quote gameplay feature that involves you dying to progress Dying is overrated, really. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeroX4 Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 7 minutes ago, Eklectus said: For the past month since the release of the Old Blood, I've watched so much feedback on the Liches go by absolutely ignored. At this point, I highly doubt DE cares for it in favour of their own creative vision, so I'm not even bothering to try and reach out to them. Likewise, I've never actually seen anyone come out in support of the way things work now. So, I'd just like to know if any of the players here enjoy the change to Liches that occurred between their Tennocon reveal and release, particularly, the scripted instakill mechanic. Please, help me understand why DE thinks that a gameplay feature that involves you dying to progress, without giving a chance to survive based on player skill, would be enjoyable to their players. Many people joked that it's so they could show off their custom execution animation, but could that actually be the whole reason? As it stands now, their nemesis system was dead on arrival for me. i enjoy it since i dont need to do it anymore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Unreality Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 It's decent for the first Lich. It's not for the rest when you're trying to collect weapons for MR. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miser_able Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 I enjoy it, in moderation. 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SordidDreams Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 (edited) I speculate that it's because they wanted the nemesis to feel like a nemesis. It's not much of a nemesis if you wipe the floor with it every time, is it. So, they made it wipe the floor with you, to make it seem suitably threatening and to make it feel good when you finally take it down. I think it was a misguided decision and I don't enjoy the result, but I can kinda see the logic behind it. Needless to say I'd prefer the old system that was described pre-release. Also, I'm baffled by how late the change seems to have been made. Ever notice that the liches tend to say things like "I'll learn from this encounter" when you finally kill them? They seem to think they're going to come back. Same thing with references to how many times they've been dissected and upgraded, when in reality it only happened once. Seems to me the voice lines for killing the liches were written, recorded, and implemented with the idea that they'd die and come back stronger numerous times, and for some reason nobody thought to take them out when the system was changed. It must've been a last-minute change. Edit: Oh, and I hate the cutscenes. I thought inserting cutscenes into gameplay like that was a fad that had come and gone some years ago, and I was always thankful it seemed to have mostly bypassed DE and WF. Turns out they're just behind the curve. Edited December 1, 2019 by SordidDreams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AEP8FlyBoy Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 (edited) When more than 90% of Lich interaction doesn't actually involve any Lich interaction, and the interaction for the Lich that does exist is a guessing game to not die instead of a skill based sequence to avoid dying, and when dying is one of the ways to accelerate your Lich progress... yeah. It's not that exciting the 5th or 10th time around, in my honest opinion. That said, it really does have potential. Potential that is wholly wasted based on the fact that when you get a weapon you don't want you have to slog thru 2-3 hours of grind to try again (Not factoring in trading, which was only a band-aid in my eyes). Even when immediate duplicates can't happen, I've still gotten 4-5 overall duplicates. And it's really taken away a lot of my drive to do so. After Liches were hyped up to be this amazing, in-your-face, challenge of a system, it is really disappointing to see the guessing game and slog of a grind that it turned out being. Needs some more work, definitely. Just not sure in what way would make it feel better to me. Edited November 30, 2019 by AEP8FlyBoy 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trst Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 Honestly people are far too hung up over the instant kill mechanic. Is it good? No not really. Is death actually a punishment in this game? Very very rarely. Beyond that I think the system is just fine as is but could use improvements. It has less rng than other things while also being more optional than most grinds we have. People being hung up over getting the weapons for mastery is silly for anything outside of completionism and getting max 60% rolls is more of a luxury than Riven mods are. But just being able to finally fight some slightly more level appropriate enemies without snoozing through an hour or so in an endless mode makes every shortcoming of the system worth it to me. At this point what I really want is the Corpus and Infested variants so I can find enemies to fight anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
More-L Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 (edited) A nemesis system that lasts about 3-6 hours or so with the only reward being a 10% chance at a cosmetic and a weapon requiring you to spend 5 forma to get all the mastery xp. Literally the only rewarding thing in this gameplay system is requiem relics from thralls and a "small" kuva bonus. DE made it sound like you would be with the nemesis for a long time. Here's a way to make that happen, when you "kill" them they don't actually die but instead give you their weapon/ephemera then cycle what they have based on what frame killed them with what weapons. That way they would actually be a long term nemesis not just some time sink for MR. They could have even tied the lore of the "old blood" to it. When a lich dies, that exact same 'old blood' stores the memories and remembers what you did to it, what powers you used, what weapons then gets a new tactic based on that when it is inserted in to the next Grineer. Even giving it the potential to store multiple kills worth of information to make it super difficult after a lot of kills, but still you could do things to disarm them to get their weapon or gain some other rewards even if they were 10x stronger than you could handle, that would be fun and rewarding. Also some real personality would be nice with voice lines specifically talking about your frame etc. Edited December 2, 2019 by More-L 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatternistSlave Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 I like it a lot, yeah. I think there could be more survivals and I'd like there to be something to do with all my captured pokemans, but all in all the system is dope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrivaMain Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 The lich system is a mixed bag for me. I believe DE’s intention is that they thought players would take their time to eliminate their liches like maybe 1 murmur a day. Hence, the long grind for to take out 1 lich. But you all know players are impatient and want to get those weapons as fast as possible. I don’t mind the grind. But the one letdown for me is probably getting liches with bad duplicates, which highly demotivating. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mints Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 15 minutes ago, Eklectus said: Please, help me understand why DE thinks that a gameplay feature that involves you dying to progress, without giving a chance to survive based on player skill, would be enjoyable to their players. Because half of the system is a placeholder dude. Kuva liches were supposed to be directly tied to Empyrean. DE really can't win anymore. Either they sit on Kuva Liches for months and watch their player count dwindle to nothing or they jury rig existing systems into a functioning gameplay loop and shuffle Liches out the door to keep people playing. Furthermore, as if death even means anything. Oh no one of your four revives must be expended in order to make an attempt on the Liche's life whatever shall you do? If the Liches bother you quarantine them to a couple of nodes and ignore the fact that they exist. It's not hard, I did it myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterc3 Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 26 minutes ago, Eklectus said: so I'm not even bothering to try and reach out to them So why expect anything in return? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 i like it, i didnt mind of grindfest much, i've been collecting all mask lich i ever want it, and im still gonna grind for my own research to see how many possibly total of lich out there, im aiming for 1000 lich hunt to see total of all generated lich out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphaPHENIX Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 I like it in the sense that it gives me a thing to do which requires more then my muscle memory and 1% of brain power (for now). I don't like it in the sense that it gives pubs a reason to think they are allowed to order me around...seriously, you know who you are, at least say ''please''. Also, I think many of us would have realy appreciated a bit more time spent in the voice lines recording booth. Lich: Are you ignoring me tenno? Me: Yes... Lich: You bruise my feelings. Me: I am so sorry. Here is a dictionary, please memorize every word up to page 3 untill the next Earth cycle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katinka Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 I like it. Spent most of today chasing Lichs. The instant death for not using the correct sequence doesn't even register as a problem for me. I used a revive, big deal. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TARINunit9 Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 38 minutes ago, Eklectus said: Please, help me understand why DE thinks that a gameplay feature that involves you dying to progress, without giving a chance to survive based on player skill, would be enjoyable to their players. Now that they added a fend-off mechanic I can speculate on the best excuse they have for it (I don't feel it's a good excuse but in absence of an official reason it's the best I have) Using a Requiem sequence is inherently risky. Thralls can just be stabbed in the face and killed, but for a being that just ressurects indefinitely you need to cut a little deeper, into their soul's connection to the physical plane. And when you reach that far, you might be off-balance if you miss. You might be left a little... vulnerable... Of course you can hide behind your shotgun, to keep yourself safe, but no pain equals no gain That's my theory of what the design doc says, anyway 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FurianStorm Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 Although the lich system isn't perfect. I don't realy dislike it. Dieing isn't a problem for me. I mean it's a matter of perspective. Usualy we rarely die. (unless you are as as me) So beging killed by a lich might be a way to make us feel a little bit more humble. Yes I would love to see more personality in the liches. But I think that's something they can fit in later. I have a feeling that atm everyone is working to get us into space with that new railjack. But I do love when my litch say's I have to pay idiottax. Made me laugh the 1st time and even the 100th time I still think it's funny. I don't realy like the murmer grind. Especialy the 3rd murmer takes a lot. But then I don't know how to make it better. Give us the murmer quicker? then there might be complaints that its to easy to get them. All I could think to improve the murmer system is the following. This would also properly solve the issue about people not stabbing their lich or having to kill someone's lich 3 times. Now picture this... What if the mods on the parazon where called out by your little lichy each time you stab him. Like he would give some sort of badass qoute as he breaks your back. maybe even name the mods different so they could be used in a sentence. I'm sure someone with a more creative mind could come up with a few cool sentenses. So at least that way we are NEEDED to stab our lich if you want to kill/convert your lich. Maybe then a small tweak in gaining your lich level must be needed with this system as well. so TLDR. I don't dislike the lich system. (love is a big word) But there is room for improvement. Wich I think will come when DE has some more breathing room. (after emperean and its quick patches.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabbynaru Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 I've killed my first Lich just for the heck of it, and haven't really bothered with the system since then, cause I see no reason to go out of my usual gameplay loop just to chase something that's supposed to be the thing chasing me. I've got better things to do than bother with that remote island. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridian Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 (edited) While I'm not exactly a fan, can you people be at least a bit objective in your rant? They changed and keep changing a lot based on feedback and as for the death - if one revive is so precious to you, then you need to get better at this game, or are you simply using it as one more reason to whine about the game? Edited November 30, 2019 by Ver1dian 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)The Neko Otaku Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 I like we finally have something threating to fight now. Just need some expansion like more warframe abilities for the lich to copy, lich and thralls spawning outside of lich territory so they don't feel so isolated. 52 minutes ago, Eklectus said: Please, help me understand why DE thinks that a gameplay feature that involves you dying to progress, When the last time you had to use more than one revive a week? Most players have 6 revives from arcanes so you not missing out if you lose one revive just some affinity but in return you get to check off a mod in your parazon and get closer to the right one, a bunch off progress towards a murmur, kuva and some higher level missions to mess with 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HelloItIsIJimbles Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 Kindof boring to me tbh. The ohhh so epic lich fights for me have just been pressing E until they die and then I either guess right or wrong. I've gotten to the point where I'll just quit the mission if I guess wrong because it's faster to get out change the mods and get back in then it is to finish the mission. I've only done a handful though, I can't find myself doing another for a little bit. I definitely burned out of it pretty fast. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loza03 Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 The SYSTEM? That much is fine and quite fun. How we have it now? It's a foundation, and needs serious work. I've had one lich be a threat to me out of some 10, and that was a considerable surprise, and mostly because I play quite the squishy frame (Limbo) whilst also limiting the use of some of the more game-breaking stuff. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HelloItIsIJimbles Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 2 minutes ago, (XB1)The Neko Otaku said: I like we finally have something threating to fight now. I do disagree with this though. I think some of the bosses and high-level stalker / the three guys are tougher then the liches. Though maybe I just keep finding ways to cheese the lich fights and I'm ruining the content for myself. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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