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Who Here Actually Enjoys the Current Lich System?

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i hate this lich system, especially when the lich has a weapon that you already have. you know you will grind for the next few hours for nothing.

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I do.

But then I didn't rush into it day one. I tend to take my time easing into new content, as I do with any game.

 

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I read up on the kuva system, looks to be such a PIA that i cant be bothered with it, its on wows level of RNG ontop of RNG (i mean cmon, rng order to kill the thing and if you dont get it you WILL die no matter what? Thats just annyoing and waste of time)

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I'm on my first lich, and I already find it tedious. Someone also thought it would be a good idea to drop a few sentient mobs into a mobile defence node, narrative consistency be damned.

All in all it feels contrived, cobbled together and shoehorned in. And once the initial enthusiasm dies down, the chances to get a kuva lich PuG will be the same as for dark zone defection. The game mode still needs a lot of work.

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4 hours ago, Tinklzs said:

Remove the RNG on weapons, instead tie them to the rank of the lich. Kill a Rank 5 lich = max stats on the weapon

Now this is a great idea ...... DE Take notes  and let the community fix this disaster. ..

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56 minutes ago, (PS4)SolarPhantom82 said:

Now this is a great idea ...... DE Take notes  and let the community fix this disaster. ..

If it wasn`t for the ability to trade liches that will be coming soon to console finally. I would of stopped after the 8th weapon that got me MR28. The fact the chances to get a different weapon goes down as you get each weapon is an annoying frustration on any poorly designed farming system. Usually there better not be many things tied to it (usually having the farm be a branching system with smaller pools for specific goods for a more optimal approach) or it better just be a currency where one can choose what they want, with likely maybe having the quantity of the currency being the rng-sus or based on how effective you cleared said `round of grind.`

 

Kuva Seer, Kuva Ogris, Kuva Chakkur & Kuva Shildeg are honestly not that majorly interesting to me and most of the other 9 kuva weapons i have gotten, i have not touched passed the first 30 ranks of MR grinding since 5 forma is worth alot more value, then pushing a bunch of MEH weapons for that extra MR, when it takes a while to stock them and till plague star returns, i cannot enjoy a proper grind to deal with them, without wasting excessive amounts of plat to handle them. Heck, its probably only Kuva Quartakk & Kuva Twin Stubba that interests me since they have rather good stats, good ammo clips & a fire rate that makes me feel like they would make excellent status proccing monsters, especially with corrosive builds.

 

Plus yes, i kind of also been one of the many to point out that D.E. should of had lich `RANK` actually fking matter to the final product of the weapon, That way its actually beneficial to not rush on taking the lich down asap, By making it all the more sweeter when we finally do it. Which i would think even having the VARIANCE on where the elemental bonus % could land would be nice, where at rank 5, the variance could be between 50-60%, instead of having such a erratic value between 25% and 60%.

Because in all honesty, the amount of Kuva that D.E. tied to the lich and not have it also be acquired on shank attempts at rank 5 & when you convert/kill the turd, we should of also got a major lump of kuva alongside it to give a satisfying static reward for us to get out of it. Which i would think 2100 kuva per RANK of the lich upon its defeat, on top of the other kuva D.E. gave us on the lich `bleeding`, would of helped to make kuva liches a nice extension of kuva farming, then just another island system to chase after a rather meager item, that we have to grind to make it decent enough.

 

 

Edited by Avienas
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It would be fun if we solve puzzle to unlock how to kill lich. not farming murmurs and not via this ugly RNG

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My only real issue with the system is that it isn't integrated tight enough with the other systems.   Thus while doing liches i'm not really doing anything else which is a bit of a bummer.  This really isn't different than DE's normal methods...just just hoping for a bit of a shift with something like this.    So, the way this is going I will get the weapons and probably won't touch it again.   And that sorta makes me sad...was enjoying actually having to put mods on a weapons/frames to complete a mission.

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When I did the first one, I swore it would be my last - knowing up-front that I was getting a Kuva Drakgoon (a weapon I don't like much), having to grind out the mods, chase murmurs, get ganked repeatedly, all of it contributed to a really depressing experience. So I was sure I'd not try twice.

I was wrong. I couldn't resist a second shot at it, and ended up with a Chakkhurr, which was cool. And having all the mods meant that half of the grind was gone, and the core of it - murmur farming - is basically just killing S#&$ and like, that's all we do in this game. So I rationalized that way, and I did it again, and got a Tonkor (meh). Anyway, I think I've done 7 now. And it is a bad grind - slogging through murmur farming, knowing ahead of time whether the payout will suck (yay, a 28% Kuva Seer), having multilayered RNG that contributes to that sucky payout. There are tons of things I'd change to make it so that no matter what you're doing, it's rewarding. Stuff like

1. Putting the weapons on a knockout list - you get them all, before you go 'round again (so you can try the to get better elemental percentages in the next cycle, but you're guaranteed to at least be able to master the weapons).

2. Putting requiem order information in special spy nodes, or hints to it in such places (I mean, spy is where critical data comes from, right?). Hell, make it 6 mods, and have logic puzzle clues in Spy missions (like "Lohk is next to Netra, but it's not next to Vome").

3. Have the Liches be rivals to each other, too -- if you help bring down someone else's lich, they'll pass on a secret about yours. "Xata is part of their 'true name.'"

Things like that. 

But I'll give 'em this: DE knows how to convince you to grind even when it's a bad grind. The Kuva Lich thing is seductive, especially because there's really nothing else but the usual stuff to do. I'm not sure I actually enjoy it, but I have a problem avoiding it. 

Edited by Ham_Grenabe
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I surely do not. It is nothing more than grind of old content. Neither the liches nor the thralls have any mechanics that make the counters interesting or unique in any form. The grind itself is way too inconsistent in how long it takes. Maybe there are weapons that have value. The two I got were nothing more than MR fodder.

After I ran two, not sure why would I ever run one again. It is recycled annoying content. And honestly, I am highly disappointed that the encounters with liches have zero mechanics, beside do not get close, or you will be on shotted (parazon stab on an incapacitated target does not count). 

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Il y a 22 heures, DoomFruit a dit :

But on the other hand, if they add complete and utter bullS#&$, then I'm not going to play that at all. So not only is there no game for me to play the next day, there is also no game for me to play on this day.

They added weapons with a peculiar way of getting those. After years of warframe, I still don't have a Hatred, but I have hundreds of Dreads and Despairs... That's OK, but lich weapons, inacceptable !

If I was to powerfarm Stalker to get Hatred, that would be sooo mindbreaking, so much more than doing it a little bit at a time, like you're supposed to do with lichs...

How is doing 30x10 rotations of disruption to get akarius OK but not lichs ? How is grinding an entire syndicate for 3 rakta weapons OK but not lichs ? How is doing 30 times the same capture fissure for that last prime part OK but not lichs ? Stalker (as mentionned above) OK but not lichs ? Detron and Brakk shenanigans OK but not lichs ? Doing god knows how many runs of that infested mission for nidus OK but not lichs ? God knows how many defection runs for Harrow OK but not lichs ? Doing hundreds of tridolon to get one full energize OK but not lichs ?

I don't understand why everyone is crying their hearts out now... We have a selection of fully built weapons, with more than decent stats, that you can fuse with duplicates to improve even more, with enough capacity for rivens and all the primes you can dream of, that you can trade, but oh no, you can't get those by bying a bp in market and spending 200 rubedo...

Now we need a safety net for duplicates (even though it has never ever been a talking point for the many similar cases), we can't stand doing anything longer than 20 minutes when it's asked of us (but people will still farm kuva for hours without any real incentive from the game) and we can't stand dying (even though, before TOB, everyone agreed that the death mechanic is very generous and inconsequantial), what changed really ?

You are supposed to be jumping from an activity to another, you can powerfarm something specific, but it's on you if you burn yourself out. TOB is another system like fissures, syndicates, invasions and others, you're supposed to mix and progress all of those at once, a nice varied game experience that way.

Or you can try to farm all prime parts in the game in a row, you'll be miserable, try to force all stalker's weapon and nothing else, you'll be miserable. And in the same way, you can powerfarm all lich weapons in a row and oh, surprise, you're miserable. In every game you have the possibility to rush through one aspect of the game, is it advised ? Generally not. I can spend 3 days in a row, farming nothing but the alchemy skill in skyrim, rushing through optimized routes, ignoring anything that is not increasing that skill. Is it authorized and probably the most optimized way of reaching that goal ? Yes. Did I ruin my game experience by my own actions and by no fault of the game ? Yes. Would have I not burn myself out if I managed better my time with the game ? Yes. Can I say "that game's alchemy system sucks, you have to do nothing but pickup plants for 10 hours until you're done" ? That'd be stupid.

So, I see two major cases : if you are bellow 1000 hours, maybe do something else ? You have so many different things to do, why do you keep smashing your head against that one spot on the wall ? You just can't accuse this game to be repetitiv if you're willfully ignoring entire chunks of content to cycle through.

If you're above 1000 hours, well, you're above 1000 hours with the game ! How about you stop saying stuff like "Warframe's boring now", " so little content" and such ? Uh ? Don't you realise how LONG you've managed to keep playing this game ? It's not that the game became boring all the sudden, it's you that have played the game for too long to stay interested like the first day. When something like TOB comes out, don't try and rush through it like a sweatshop worker, do 3 or 4 lichs, and once you've experienced the new update, go on with your life until next update, you'd even have leftover from previous update when you come back ! You can do what you want, but don't go around complaining that DE "makes" you do 30 lich runs in a row, you did that to yourself.

So, to come back to the post I was answering to : how is it BS ? Compared to everything we had before, how is it that much different ? Between running 30 fissure captures, collection those 10 reactants over and over, to get one prime weapon, and running 30 lich captures, stabing thralls over and over, to get a kuva weapon... How is it so different from what we've already had for years ?

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3 minutes ago, Fallen77 said:

So, to come back to the post I was answering to : how is it BS ? Compared to everything we had before, how is it that much different ? Between running 30 fissure captures, collection those 10 reactants over and over, to get one prime weapon, and running 30 lich captures, stabing thralls over and over, to get a kuva weapon... How is it so different from what we've already had for years ?

The two largest offenders by far are:

-Limited use mods

-Dying even after you've won the fight

A (dis)honourable mention also goes to them stealing your stuff and the so-called "dark patterns" involved in creating one. Normally, a big red marker over something indicates that you need to go and do this thing in order to complete the mission. Now, you get this big red marker over something that players are best off avoiding and which is completely orthogonal to the current mission. Actively misleading the playerbase is a very low thing to do, putting them on the same level as adware popups and Microsoft.

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Il y a 1 heure, DoomFruit a dit :

The two largest offenders by far are:

-Limited use mods

-Dying even after you've won the fight

A (dis)honourable mention also goes to them stealing your stuff and the so-called "dark patterns" involved in creating one. Normally, a big red marker over something indicates that you need to go and do this thing in order to complete the mission. Now, you get this big red marker over something that players are best off avoiding and which is completely orthogonal to the current mission. Actively misleading the playerbase is a very low thing to do, putting them on the same level as adware popups and Microsoft.

I'll give you the limited use, I get that it can be annoying. Although, considering the extremely low chances to get the 3 same mods on 2 lichs in a row, and that you can fuse used ones, I'd call those very durable.

Dying, as I said, is totally unconsequantial, it doesn't matter. You're not farming XP in lich missions do you ? And even if you did, the small amount lost is... Small.

Red markers on larvlings... Yeah... Could be better. I'd say add a line to the kuva guardian, making it sound like something you'd want to avoid (in lore at least).

But the stolen stuff... Come on man. It's nothing... You really feel like those 300 creds, 200 rubedo and 50 ferrite lost are that big of a deal ? You're even getting everything back at the end, what's the problem ?

And other counter point, yet to be confirmed : I feel like we're getting more ressources than we normally do when on lich territory. What makes me say that ? Endo. If I'm not wrong, you can only find drops 15 and 50 endo right ? But on lich turf, I always end up with scores like "42 turned into 38 endo" after theft. My interpretation is that DE is bumping up whatever loot we get in lich turf, so that we really don't loose that much, and so that the end reward is still substancial (with more or less success). Maybe that this has been discussed already, but nothing I've seen yet.

All that to say, I don't think any of your points warrant calling TOB BS... Not even by a mile. A few minor hickups, but nothing unfair or gamebreaking imo...

Edited by Fallen77
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3 minutes ago, Fallen77 said:

Dying, as I said, is totally unconsequantial, it doesn't matter. You're not farming XP in lich missions do you ? And even if you did, the small amount lost is... Small.

It's not that I have 4 revives (or 5, or 6, depending on arcanes), it's that the death was completely unjustified. Imagine that you're playing Sonic doing one of the chaos emerald special stages and that when you reach the emerald, the game has a 5/6 chance of flat out killing you instead of giving you the glowing magic thingy. Something like that would be flagged as a bug and would not pass QA testing.

Why should this happen?

Explain what I, the player, have done wrong in the mission that justifies me getting killed.

Explain why, after I have won the fight and am standing there with full health, do I deserve to die based on nothing more than a roll of the dice.

Justify me dying when I have done absolutely nothing wrong.

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In a sense, you have done something wrong: you tried to kill the demon by speaking its true name, but you got the name wrong. That results in Bad Things. 

However: I don't like it either, mind. I think you should be able to gather the specific order of requiem mods via the system itself; the guesswork thing leans too heavily on the "we're unkillable space ninja drones" bit of the lore for my taste (not to mention the "this is a video game so you can die and come back" bit too). Plus, it would make more sense if you had to find the precise order - through spy missions, or some other interesting twist on existing missions - instead of just guessing. 

Edited by Ham_Grenabe

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14 minutes ago, DoomFruit said:

Explain what I, the player, have done wrong in the mission that justifies me getting killed.

Explain why, after I have won the fight and am standing there with full health, do I deserve to die based on nothing more than a roll of the dice.

Justify me dying when I have done absolutely nothing wrong.

The only justification that people seem to have have is that the deaths don't matter.

I've asked this exact same question countless times and all I've ever gotten is silence or "It is just a revive bruh" said in another way.

As I said earlier in this thread, I am 100% sure that nobody would be campaigning for an automatic death if there never was one in the first place, which makes me question why everyone is so against people who want it removed.

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7 minutes ago, Ham_Grenabe said:

In a sense, you have done something wrong: you tried to kill the demon by speaking its true name, but you got the name wrong. That results in Bad Things. 

However: I don't like it either, mind. I think you should be able to gather the specific order of requiem mods via the system itself; the guesswork thing leans too heavily on the "we're unkillable space ninja drones" bit of the lore for my taste (not to mention the "this is a video game so you can die and come back" bit too). Plus, it would make more sense if you had to find the precise order - through spy missions, or some other interesting twist on existing missions - instead of just guessing. 

If the game provided me with a means to obtain the mod order and killed me because I did not use that means, then I would have died because of my (lack of) gameplay.

This would be absolutely fine - the death in that case is entirely on me and is therefore justified.

However, this is not how things are at the moment. There's also a huge disconnect between the fight outcome and the mods. As far as I know, there's nothing in the context button animation which relates even peripherally to the requiem mod order or that they even exist in the first place. No blade ricochet, no flying runes, no cancelling shields (think an Evangelion prying apart an Angel's AT field with its bare hands), no speaking killphrases to immobilise them. Either that you stab them or you don't.

It's a real shame that there are many ways in this game by which we can obtain information (spy, capture, intercept, maybe even rescue and disruption) but not a single one is used here right where it would have made sense and served to tie the system together.

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22 minutes ago, DoomFruit said:

If the game provided me with a means to obtain the mod order and killed me because I did not use that means, then I would have died because of my (lack of) gameplay.

This would be absolutely fine - the death in that case is entirely on me and is therefore justified.

However, this is not how things are at the moment. There's also a huge disconnect between the fight outcome and the mods. As far as I know, there's nothing in the context button animation which relates even peripherally to the requiem mod order or that they even exist in the first place. No blade ricochet, no flying runes, no cancelling shields (think an Evangelion prying apart an Angel's AT field with its bare hands), no speaking killphrases to immobilise them. Either that you stab them or you don't.

It's a real shame that there are many ways in this game by which we can obtain information (spy, capture, intercept, maybe even rescue and disruption) but not a single one is used here right where it would have made sense and served to tie the system together.

I'm in full agreement. I get the feeling they wanted it to be non-trivial to do the kill, but making it a random guess at the order of three items only increased the triviality of it. You just try it, and then rearrange, and try again, etc.

In any case: if I had to do any of the "gather data / secret info" missions to get the correct requiem order, that would be so much cooler. Even if you weren't guaranteed to get a piece of the order on every vault - just a chance to do so, perhaps enhanced by how many murmurs you've collected - would be a much more sensible way. 

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So,remember shadow of war?

Remember when you met "that orc" you know,that one who when you saw at a bad time you where like "OH NONONO!" Because,you where scared of them? Where you ever siting there thinking "What I am gonna get If I kill this orc"..No you where thinking. "What should even do with this guy?"

Remember how orcs would leave the areas they where from and go to a whole other place, just to beat your ass?

Remember getting gang bang by orcs?

Remember finally killing them and how you where "FINALLY THE NIGHTMARE IS OVER!" only for a few hours later to run into them again and they are stronger and more pissed.

Remember how you branded orcs because they seemed useful/cool to you?

Yeah, we have none of that..They have turned what should of been a proper foe for the Tenno/warframe into a crappy rng walking gun which is tradable..People,care more about the gun these clowns are carrying then them...THEY ARE THAT MUCH OF A WASTE OF SPACE. Because,they focus the rewards and stuffing a bunch of RNG into It (And somehow connecting It to the riven grind) then making a good proper foe for us...

I can only assume that is why the mods are a thing so,they would have a reason to stuff riven sliver and more kuva somewhere. And It just so happened The Kuva Liches are who suffer for It..End this abuse,make Kuva Liches true badass..Remove the Req mods..give them their own like floating lairs to find by beating their planets or something..and thing else but this

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1 minute ago, (XB1)TheRoflLizard said:

So,remember shadow of war?

Remember when you met "that orc" you know,that one who when you saw at a bad time you where like "OH NONONO!" Because,you where scared of them? Where you ever siting there thinking "What I am gonna get If I kill this orc"..No you where thinking. "What should even do with this guy?"

Remember how orcs would leave the areas they where from and go to a whole other place, just to beat your ass?

Remember getting gang bang by orcs?

Remember finally killing them and how you where "FINALLY THE NIGHTMARE IS OVER!" only for a few hours later to run into them again and they are stronger and more pissed.

Remember how you branded orcs because they seemed useful/cool to you?

Don't forget how if you did manage to reduce an orc's health to zero you didn't need to play a lethal game of match 3 to not die to them after you already won.

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4 hours ago, Fallen77 said:

How is doing 30x10 rotations of disruption to get akarius OK but not lichs ? How is grinding an entire syndicate for 3 rakta weapons OK but not lichs ? How is doing 30 times the same capture fissure for that last prime part OK but not lichs ? Stalker (as mentionned above) OK but not lichs ? Detron and Brakk shenanigans OK but not lichs ? Doing god knows how many runs of that infested mission for nidus OK but not lichs ? God knows how many defection runs for Harrow OK but not lichs ? Doing hundreds of tridolon to get one full energize OK but not lichs ?

To be honest I skipped the rest because of what I quoted here.

I got the gauss weapons within 2 hours of him going live, and gauss being built in the foundry within 3-4 hours of him going live. FAR less time than it takes to get 2 weapons under the Kuva Lich System. And the new mission they add (disruption) was actually fun. Unlike Kuva Lich where you're doing the same content you've done before, the same missions, but instead of doing it for the reward (like you did disruption for gauss/his weapons) you're doing it for the kuva lich system, oh and KL steals stuff.

I think you've been reading the forums blind for awhile, players have been asking that Stalker, G3, Zanuka all get changes to no be so RNG and also be an actual threat. I and many others have advocated for Salvage, Defection to be more interesting and less... buggy to say the least. But DE rarely listens.

As for Eidolons, actual boss fights that have some challenge (had for those who've memorized them). This is your weakest example by far, and I'm going to break it down.

#1 You can be going for grace/energize and get other arcanes, while the arcanes variety in value, you're still getting something for your effort that is worth something, plat.

#2 With how energize/grace have been added to nightwave, they're more affordable than ever, piece by piece has always been cheaper than the full set for buying outright. 

Kuva Liches - doing the same content we've been doing for years, unabated now doing the same missions for one or thirteen weapons, with a very high chance of a duplicate. The issue between duplicates from disruption vs KL is this.  I can get a duplicate gauss part during rotation, but that doesn't stop me from getting parts from the amalgams and vis versa. KL if I get stuck with a duplicate I have to slog through an unfun grind, knowing my time is being wasted because I already have the reward, and pray to RNGesus that I get something I don't already have. That is not fun and is a major difference between The Old Blood and the rest of warframe.  I can get a duplicate primed part, and be able to trade it for plat and buy what I want, I get a duplicate with the old blood, and it has no value.   Now before you even bother mention slave trading, that's a band-aid system to further increase how long it takes to get what you're after.   

 

4 hours ago, Fallen77 said:

So, to come back to the post I was answering to : how is it BS ? Compared to everything we had before, how is it that much different ? Between running 30 fissure captures, collection those 10 reactants over and over, to get one prime weapon, and running 30 lich captures, stabing thralls over and over, to get a kuva weapon... How is it so different from what we've already had for years ?

In the end, the amount of time spent for the lack of reward (and RNG on reward). DE can do better, it really is as simple as that. 

They can make something be a timesink without it feeling unrewarding, and when thousands of players are all saying the same things, and giving out constructive criticism to help alleviate the bad to help the good shine a bit more, and still ignored - that shows where DE is coming from. They just want an update that will take longer, they don't even care if it's fun to do again, they just want something that wastes your time in such a way so some players won't come to the forums and complain of content drought.

 

4 hours ago, Fallen77 said:

TOB is another system like fissures, syndicates, invasions and others, you're supposed to mix and progress all of those at once, a nice varied game experience that way.

Don't need invasions, fortuna made those obsolete. 1-2 DI/Fieldron/MM per 10 hours, vs 1-2 per chance of bounty.   Syndicates you can farm passively, but also focus on their simple straightforward missions, and fissures - we got our own reskin of that in KL.   So those who had nothing better to do but kuva farm or eidolons wanted something at least worth the time. The shame here is, two very successful games were created on this system, and were played for many hundreds of hours by myself, yet KL immediately turned me away, why?

The rewards simply aren't there, doing all that grind for a weapon - duplicate or not - is too much, especially when you can radshare for 99% of the other prime content in warframe. 

 

2 hours ago, Fallen77 said:

You're even getting everything back at the end, what's the problem ?

That's under the assumption that you're beeline focusing the KL - I've had 6 sortie's worth of rewards stolen from mine, I could kill him, I finally got his three trigger words (100% solo player here, bad net) but have no incentive to kill him because I could easily kill another larvae by mistake and start this whole system over again.   Until it's 100% opt-in, where you cannot make a mistake mid-mission and start another KL, it truly isn't opt-in for me. I've said it before, make it a quest you can toggle on/off, larvae would only spawn on kuva floods when the quest is on, and won't spawn at all when off. Very simple, and everyone benefits.   https://imgur.com/a/dpchdJ5  Incase you don't believe me on KL stealing stuff. 

 

All in all - the Kuva Lich system could  be made much better, what happens when you eventually (if ever) get all the weapons? Then you abandon it and go for the next 'shiny' thing, the problem is this system could easily have static rewards (kuva, endo other sought after resources or tradable rewards) that give incentive to continue. The real shame here is the kuva lich system could be changed into something fun instead, they'd rather keep it a dull grind.  If you like it how it is, good for you - but please don't say it's fine, it could be made better and that's what disappoints me.

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So, to come back to the post I was answering to : how is it BS ? Compared to everything we had before, how is it that much different ? Between running 30 fissure captures, collection those 10 reactants over and over, to get one prime weapon, and running 30 lich captures, stabing thralls over and over, to get a kuva weapon... How is it so different from what we've already had for years ?

 

That an easy one to answer: When I'm running those fissure modes I'm at least getting something useful (items that can be traded for ducats, forma bps, etc.) even if I'm not getting what I'm looking for. With this system there is nothing more soul crushing than getting a 25% useless weapon that you already have knowing it will take at least 2 hours to get rid of it and that's if you have already stockpiled the required requiem mods.

The "being able to sell the Lich" is absolute BS. No one is paying for 25% weapons and you have to use trade chat which scrolls rivens so quickly you can barely read it.

Changes are needed and badly or this "system" is soon dead on the vine.

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8 hours ago, Ham_Grenabe said:

When I did the first one, I swore it would be my last - knowing up-front that I was getting a Kuva Drakgoon (a weapon I don't like much), having to grind out the mods, chase murmurs, get ganked repeatedly, all of it contributed to a really depressing experience. So I was sure I'd not try twice.

I was wrong. I couldn't resist a second shot at it, and ended up with a Chakkhurr, which was cool. And having all the mods meant that half of the grind was gone, and the core of it - murmur farming - is basically just killing S#&$ and like, that's all we do in this game. So I rationalized that way, and I did it again, and got a Tonkor (meh). Anyway, I think I've done 7 now. And it is a bad grind - slogging through murmur farming, knowing ahead of time whether the payout will suck (yay, a 28% Kuva Seer), having multilayered RNG that contributes to that sucky payout. There are tons of things I'd change to make it so that no matter what you're doing, it's rewarding. Stuff like

1. Putting the weapons on a knockout list - you get them all, before you go 'round again (so you can try the to get better elemental percentages in the next cycle, but you're guaranteed to at least be able to master the weapons).

2. Putting requiem order information in special spy nodes, or hints to it in such places (I mean, spy is where critical data comes from, right?). Hell, make it 6 mods, and have logic puzzle clues in Spy missions (like "Lohk is next to Netra, but it's not next to Vome").

3. Have the Liches be rivals to each other, too -- if you help bring down someone else's lich, they'll pass on a secret about yours. "Xata is part of their 'true name.'"

Things like that. 

But I'll give 'em this: DE knows how to convince you to grind even when it's a bad grind. The Kuva Lich thing is seductive, especially because there's really nothing else but the usual stuff to do. I'm not sure I actually enjoy it, but I have a problem avoiding it. 

All really good ideas, If DE would just lession to the community, they can fix this...

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