Nekros needs a rework

[Andele3025]

41 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

So first off, I would very much recommend you take a short break to see if this conversation is really your hill to die on, as you're already well on your way towards crashing and burning on these forums.

And i recommend you dont try to argue/give feedback that nerfs nekros when you dont know the basics of him. You clearly dont care about nekros or the quality of his kit enough to learn it in the first place, then dont comment on feedback threads about him. And no, you are the one with antagonism toward me, probably because i caught you in lies and you started looking into my stats (and idk, probably have more kills or better kills per playtime ratio or whatever else you would try to argue from a screen that cant keep track of eximus and eidolons properly). P.S. No you didnt, its 4s (or 3.9  if you dont account for recovery frame transitions, possibly 3.8 at best if you also remove windup and input time ontop; but thats not just hair splitting, but also pointless as the result is the same that from press to next time nekros can take any action its 4s).

[WarRelic]

#1: There could be a lot more utility built into Nekros' #1 ability. Via channeling. Multiple effects could be produced by several different cast channeling times. 

The Shadows of the Dead are effected by: 

-Death-Mark: Shadows prioritize this target for 7 seconds (costing 7 energy) +         (think Ash target selection for Blade Storm) 

-Sacrifice: Shadows hitting the marked target heal for 3% a second for 7 seconds  (costing 14 energy) +

-Haste: Shadows hitting the marked target gain 15% Reload speed, RoF and movement speed bonus for 7 seconds (costing 21 energy) +   

-Soul Punch (as we used to know it, aim-bot but via "Death-Mark")  

about one second to cast divided by 4 stages  

Essentially giving Nekros the ability to give Shadows orders and micro manage them. 

There was a time long long ago when Nekros could raise a true army of the dead now he has a firing squad.

Shadows management seems the best path for power synergies.

 

 

#1: The resurrection Soul Punch augment could be made to also heal a targeted shadow?

#2: The Creeping Terrify Augment could simultaneously cast haste on Shadows of the Dead or a knockdown on enemies.

#3: Despoil/Desecrate ...no change

#4: Shield of Shadows Augment could also teleport shadows that reach the end of their tether range to Nekros' location. 

 

 

[Teridax68]

13 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

And i recommend you dont try to argue/give feedback that nerfs nekros when you dont know the basics of him.

How exactly does my feedback nerf Nekros? I'm also clearly aware of how he functions better than you do, as noted by my better understanding of how to proc Desecrate, and why maxing out range for him doesn't really benefit the ability.

13 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

You clearly dont care about nekros or the quality of his kit enough to learn it in the first place, then dont comment on feedback threads about him.

... but I do, though? If I didn't care about Nekros, I wouldn't be giving feedback on him, and I clearly have the stats showing I've learned him. Meanwhile, your stats show your time spent on Nekros has predominantly been time spent leeching with him. As such, you are in absolutely no position to try to bar me from giving feedback on the frame.

13 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

And no, you are the one with antagonism toward me, probably because i caught you in lies and you started looking into my stats (and idk, probably have more kills or better kills per playtime ratio or whatever else you would try to argue from a screen that cant keep track of eximus and eidolons properly).

So putting aside how this is such a self-evidently false statement by its own merit, you are in fact the one who started being antagonistic towards me, namely here:

On 2019-12-05 at 2:20 PM, Andele3025 said:

Thank you for proving you arent using nekros and its entirely your bias talking.

This was you launching an unprompted personal attack, which then caused you to be corrected as your fraudulent credentials regarding Nekros were exposed, while my own stats on him can be seen by anyone and appreciated as valid. The fact that you continue to produce different excuse after different excuse to try to cover this up only further incriminates you in this regard. Really, you only have yourself to blame here.

13 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

P.S. No you didnt, its 4s (or 3.9  if you dont account for recovery frame transitions, possibly 3.8 at best if you also remove windup and input time ontop; but thats not just hair splitting, but also pointless as the result is the same that from press to next time nekros can take any action its 4s).

I literally produced a video proving you wrong, though? There's being a sore loser, and then there's this.

[Andele3025]

16 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I lierally produced a video proving you wrong, though? There's being a sore loser, and then there's this.

Ignoring your hurt epeen and leeching projecting, no you did not. Animation without natural talent or sped up video: here, (even with a generous timing  by removing input delay of the game itself/time from keypress register on comp to game registering it) as you seem to be physically not capable of such a simple task. Even with the small fps loss at a point in the middle (which you can even see in the in game ui), tell me what exactly is 236 frames at 60 fps is in seconds? Or what 19 -15 (technically 19.1-15.2) or 9(.5)-5(.6) or 7(.1)-3(.2)? Its god damn 4.

 

12 hours ago, WarRelic said:

#1: There could be a lot more utility built into Nekros' #1 ability. Via channeling. Multiple effects could be produced by several different cast channeling times. 

Would slows down the game loop, thus without being innately a solid aoe disruptive. Or did you mean the selective effect like Ivara arrows and Vauban balls.

12 hours ago, WarRelic said:

#1: The resurrection Soul Punch augment could be made to also heal a targeted shadow?

Id argue too inefficient (25e/1shadow vs 100e/all 7+) and if used as a bandaid for unwanted shadows/only regenning certain units like keeping ancients or arctic eximus around, it would be much better to long term secure nekros by letting the player pick the shadow priority outside of the mission.

12 hours ago, WarRelic said:

#2: The Creeping Terrify Augment could knockdown on enemies.

Knockdowns makes headshots for allies harder to achive thus just returning the issue of terrify being inconvenient for the rest of the party members and might have some issues with repeat casts if a direct knockdown without ragdoll (a enemies under the recovery animation of a knockdown, stun, etc effect, if not in a ragdolled state, are immune to further applications of it and depending on implementation could have the same issue as with saryn miasma stun where casting it on a already debuffed enemy, even past its recovery animation, wouldnt cc again) and doesnt have much of a theme.

 

[WarRelic]

5 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Would slows down the game loop, thus without being innately a solid aoe disruptive. Or did you mean the selective effect like Ivara arrows and Vauban balls.

(Reply)No more like selecting targets for Ash's Blade Storm. Passive targeting then hold to execute the command, maybe the firing order would be rearranged so that the base effect of Soul-Punch would still snap fire and the "shadow commands" aspect of the channeling would kick in as you channeled. If the speed of the channeled ability was like that of a burst fire weapon for instance or Tatsus' spectral death heads, not to mention you've locked a target and can fire while jumping around. But it could easily be as Ivara or Vauban too, only I'd argue they are clunky to use. For me personally in practice I just choose the most useful of the options on Vauban and Ivara. Wisps tap to change, channel to deploy feels better for some reason... what ever timing they gave her is on point maybe it's because you don't really have to aim as well just deploy. That's why I think a passive deathmark would be needed for channeling o.25 seconds or o.5 seconds while executing parkour and aerial traversal.      

5 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Id argue too inefficient (25e/1shadow vs 100e/all 7+) and if used as a bandaid for unwanted shadows/only regenning certain units like keeping ancients or arctic eximus around, it would be much better to long term secure nekros by letting the player pick the shadow priority outside of the mission.

Easily fixed.Just make the #1 augments casting cost less when performing shadows healing as apposed to Resurrecting allies. It might be better that it would be used in a sacrificial manner turning one shadow into a health totem/fountain.  

• Quote

  Knockdowns makes headshots for allies harder to achive thus just returning the issue of terrify being inconvenient for the rest of the party members and might have some issues with repeat casts if a direct knockdown without ragdoll (a enemies under the recovery animation of a knockdown, stun, etc effect, if not in a ragdolled state, are immune to further applications of it and depending on implementation could have the same issue as with saryn miasma stun where casting it on a already debuffed enemy, even past its recovery animation, wouldnt cc again) and doesnt have much of a theme.

  A knockdown plus "Slowed" is a cheap way to make the Creeping Terrify augment an option, the idea is to only cause ranged CC for the duration of the slowed knockdown effect as apposed to getting shot at by slowed enemies that just runaway slowly firing at you,a weak debuff. The current Augment mod isn't worth the mod space. It's also a cheap concession to not getting Haste on allied Shadows which I'd probably prefer in the same Augment. I try and imagine a solution that would require the least work. 

[Andele3025]

36 minutes ago, WarRelic said:

(Reply)No more like selecting targets for Ash's Blade Storm. Passive targeting then hold to execute the command, maybe the firing order would be rearranged so that the base effect of Soul-Punch would still snap fire and the "shadow commands" aspect of the channeling would kick in as you channeled.

Issue with a bladestorm like version is that its time for 2 inputs instead of 1 for the targetted cc (in cases where terrify doesnt do a better job or cant be used due to being a upper body instead of 1h action)/players just wiggling the screen.

36 minutes ago, WarRelic said:

 Wisps tap to change, channel to deploy feels better for some reason...

99% sure there is a toggle for which one you want to be the use ability in options menu.

36 minutes ago, WarRelic said:

That's why I think a passive deathmark would be needed for channeling o.25 seconds or o.5 seconds while executing parkour and aerial traversal.   

If its always on/truly passive instead of bladestorm, any amount of time over instant just hurts the speed of actions unless it has no animation time when you actually want to trigger it.

Instant also has the issue of "base duration of a mark" cant last long. Not to mention that multiple individual effects instead of "works on its own, indirect consequences result in synergy" isnt really how the rest of nekros kit works (its very oberon armor sticking to regen if there was the plant carpet-y and less "oh ofc shadows corpses themselves spawn more hp orbs, in game it are more npcs while in lore its him re-harvesting the technocyte used for them).

36 minutes ago, WarRelic said:

 It might be better that it would be used in a sacrificial manner turning one shadow into a health totem/fountain.  

While demonstrable to work very well, it would be heavily stepping on garudas toes.

36 minutes ago, WarRelic said:

The current Augment mod isn't worth the mod space.

Not disputing you there, since the slow nerf it is of no damage or scaling benefit for the player itself, just noting that the issue of adding knockdown unless coded specifically to also interrupt enemy animations and it doesnt fix terrify baseline being team disruptive.

[Klaleara]

Imo

Give Nekros an exalted pet.  He takes melee mods, and a % of those mods goes towards your shadows.  Help them scale, atm their damage is crap.  And the thought of badass soldiers just literally being walking damage sponges is boring.

Change his 1 to have your pet teleport to your target and attack

Terrify is boring imo, change it to something more exciting

Make despoil the default, and add an augment so it drops loot.  Otherwise just objective stuff, health, and energy

Nekros would then be far more active, and more entertaining.

[Grave.Knight]

Nekros, the master of Survival missions? One of the best off healers, and certainly the best healer that does't actually have a healing power? That Nekros?

10 minutes ago, Klaleara said:

Make despoil the default, and add an augment so it drops loot.  Otherwise just objective stuff, health, and energy

One, that sounds way too complicated. Two, if they did change it I wouldn't want them to remove the looting aspect of Desecrate. If anything they should make it so the Augment creates a Shadow for 10 or 20 energy as an additional cost.

[Klaleara]

3 minutes ago, Grave.Knight said:

Nekros, the master of Survival missions? One of the best off healers, and certainly the best healer that does't actually have a healing power? That Nekros?

One, that sounds way too complicated. Two, if they did change it I wouldn't want them to remove the looting aspect of Desecrate. If anything they should make it so the Augment creates a Shadow for 10 or 20 energy as an additional cost.

How is that complicated at all?

Also, I'd love to remove the loot part entirely from desecrate, without hte augment.  People might legit see how much Nekros needs a rework then.

[Grave.Knight]

Just now, Klaleara said:

How is that complicated at all?

Also, I'd love to remove the loot part entirely from desecrate, without hte augment.  People might legit see how much Nekros needs a rework then.

The code, most likely, just makes it so Desecrate causes corpses to make rolls on the drop table (with a higher chance of drop), hence why corpses cut in two will double the chance of Desecrate (that's basically a bug turned into a feature). With what you want, corpses would have to roll off a different loot table. Worse yet then there will be a card that uses a different rule? The current way it works is much simpler.

[Klaleara]

1 minute ago, Grave.Knight said:

The code, most likely, just makes it so Desecrate causes corpses to make rolls on the drop table (with a higher chance of drop), hence why corpses cut in two will double the chance of Desecrate (that's basically a bug turned into a feature). With what you want, corpses would have to roll off a different loot table. Worse yet then there will be a card that uses a different rule? The current way it works is much simpler.

Don't think it works the way you think it does.  Desecrate doesn't just roll off of a normal loot table, it has a far higher chance of dropping energy/health orbs.  Hell, like I said, just remove all loot.  GG.

[Andele3025]

4 hours ago, Klaleara said:

 And the thought of badass soldiers just literally being walking damage sponges is boring.

100% true that shadows scaling off some weapon would make them scale, but it are hardly badasses most of the time unless one summons jugger or sentients.

4 hours ago, Klaleara said:

Change his 1 to have your pet teleport to your target and attack

Killing his single target 1h cc for a ai teleport with aggro is a downgrade if anything even if shadows got copies of our mod loadout for their damage, especially if its 1 shadow instead of all 7.

4 hours ago, Klaleara said:

Terrify is boring imo, change it to something more exciting

Its a fear, on the necro frame, how is that boring? I mean its armor strip could be % damage increase as Xzorn suggested from the mechanics side of interest (tho it would have to have a way to stack/probably with augment) but from a theme side perfectly solid and even a part of his prime trailer.

4 hours ago, Klaleara said:

Make despoil the default

Despoil/hp cost as default kills the option being in the players hand if they want to prioritize stats.

4 hours ago, Klaleara said:

Nekros would then be far more active, and more entertaining.

Other than undefined terrify change and removing him having something to do vs far off enemies attacking objectives (or dangerous dps not cced/in range of terrify), hitting/grounding flying enemies without jumping while on melee and a cover during combat pauses it wouldnt change his game loop at all (which is entertaining enough already/in the perfect design spot where the minimum/floor of what you can do with him is decently high, but one can achieve much better results and survive for longer the harder the mission gets by being proactive).

[PsiWarp]

Soul Punch can do more IMO.

The soul projectile it throws out doing percentage-of-hitpoints/True damage. Pulling in instead of punching out if cast on Terrified enemies, while also adding the enemy type to the Grimoire (Shadows of the Dead) for your next batch summon. 

[Teridax68]

On 2019-12-08 at 4:45 AM, Andele3025 said:

Ignoring your hurt epeen and leeching projecting, no you did not. Animation without natural talent or sped up video: here, (even with a generous timing  by removing input delay of the game itself/time from keypress register on comp to game registering it) as you seem to be physically not capable of such a simple task. Even with the small fps loss at a point in the middle (which you can even see in the in game ui), tell me what exactly is 236 frames at 60 fps is in seconds? Or what 19 -15 (technically 19.1-15.2) or 9(.5)-5(.6) or 7(.1)-3(.2)? Its god damn 4.

Speaking of being unable to perform simple tasks, you didn't upload your video correctly. The video I linked was visibly not sped up, nor did the player use Natural Talent (which would've shortened the cast time significantly more, by the way), so you really are making stuff up entirely here.

21 hours ago, Klaleara said:

Imo

Give Nekros an exalted pet.  He takes melee mods, and a % of those mods goes towards your shadows.  Help them scale, atm their damage is crap.  And the thought of badass soldiers just literally being walking damage sponges is boring.

Change his 1 to have your pet teleport to your target and attack

Terrify is boring imo, change it to something more exciting

Make despoil the default, and add an augment so it drops loot.  Otherwise just objective stuff, health, and energy

Nekros would then be far more active, and more entertaining.

This doesn't sound bad at all. I'm not entirely in favor of a single exalted pet for Nekros, but I can definitely agree to making his abilities do more things for his Shadows. I also completely agree with you that, once you strip the loot component from Desecrate, he essentially ceases to have any solid purpose besides maybe extending Survival missions. In general, we should stop making excuses for frames with mediocre performances, as if they could be better, they deserve to be better. Nekros in particular could do a much better job of being a necromancer, as his current kit underdelivers on the fantasy with abilities that aren't as interesting or even as functional as they could be.

[Klaleara]

23 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

100% true that shadows scaling off some weapon would make them scale, but it are hardly badasses most of the time unless one summons jugger or sentients.

Killing his single target 1h cc for a ai teleport with aggro is a downgrade if anything even if shadows got copies of our mod loadout for their damage, especially if its 1 shadow instead of all 7.

Its a fear, on the necro frame, how is that boring? I mean its armor strip could be % damage increase as Xzorn suggested from the mechanics side of interest (tho it would have to have a way to stack/probably with augment) but from a theme side perfectly solid and even a part of his prime trailer.

Despoil/hp cost as default kills the option being in the players hand if they want to prioritize stats.

Other than undefined terrify change and removing him having something to do vs far off enemies attacking objectives (or dangerous dps not cced/in range of terrify), hitting/grounding flying enemies without jumping while on melee and a cover during combat pauses it wouldnt change his game loop at all (which is entertaining enough already/in the perfect design spot where the minimum/floor of what you can do with him is decently high, but one can achieve much better results and survive for longer the harder the mission gets by being proactive).

You talking about that single target crappy CC that launches the enemy wildly throughout the map?  When there are a plethora of frames who do the same thing, without launching them a billion miles away, and does it to multiple targets?

Again, fear is boring, it also has no synergy with his other abilities, Also making enemies run away is also annoying as hell..  I'd have the 2nd drain the enemy of strength in AoE, and provide it to your shadows or something.  Another thing where the augment is basically required for Nekros if you plan on using the ability.

And I'll agree that making despoil takes choice out, but barely anyone doesn't use it, it is almost a required augment taking up space.  Be better if the augment was to make it energy instead, as I'm positive that would be more beneficial to more people than not.

As for the Shadows, I don't know what you mean by only juggernauts and sentients being badass.  With the right mods, shadows could actually do damage, and add status effects.

[Andele3025]

8 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Speaking of being unable to perform simple tasks, you didn't upload your video correctly. The video I linked was visibly not sped up

Video plays perfectly even right now.  And yeah, the video you linked was sped up. Stop whining over your hurt epeen just because you were fractally wrong on everything.

2 hours ago, Klaleara said:

You talking about that single target crappy CC that launches the enemy wildly throughout the map?  When there are a plethora of frames who do the same thing, without launching them a billion miles away, and does it to multiple targets?

Its crappy because noone explained to you how it works (obvious by stating that it launches enemies through the map when it only does so if you angle the soul impact from the enemy right into a wall, but if you are running towards the enemy at same or slightly lower elevation than their center, its a flat knockdown or very short knockback+knockdown). And no, Volt 1 is a 1h cc that chains in exchange for having half the range, Frost who has projectile speed thus is actually crappy as cc but blows up his 3 instead (gara 1 too but it has a alt use and scales so its tap version being a fast projectile isnt actually a issue) and oberon 1 which can only knockdown but instead has delayed % Hp damage.

Quote

Again, fear is boring, it also has no synergy with his other abilities,

If all hard aoe cc is boring idk what to say to you and it has no FORCED synergy with the rest of his kit, what it does do is prevent enemies from shooting at you or your shadows (reducing how often you have to heal them) and making them easier to kill for his 3 by removing their armor.

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Also making enemies run away is also annoying as hell..  I'd have the 2nd drain the enemy of strength in AoE, and provide it to your shadows or something. 

I could argue you should be in range to hit them with nekros, but yes, its true enemies running around easily annoys allies that arent going melee or shotgun range, why i said it might be better to give the now entirely "team qol" augment a change and bake in some slow (or as @Xzorn suggested, turn the armor into % increase, then skill giving a baseline slow equal to that but letting you stack it with the augment). And sapping strength to shadows is the type of forced synergy that the game shouldnt rely on (compare how naturally the points of garudas kit flow "she drains hp for energy, she uses bit of energy to heal from enemy, she can store damage in a ball and throw it, she can cause all damage to trigger slash procs" vs oberons 2-3-4 forced """synergy""" "he can create a radiation plant zone for enemies, he can cause healing which also adds a armor buff if the ally is on the carpet/the casting points are close to the same because the healing is a invisible point aoe and if it ends enemies retain the carpets armor buff for a duration and his 4 is aoe cc+damage that if enemies are on the carpet have their base armor stripped and if it kills someone it may cause hp orbs". The forced synergy is in the abilities calling out eachother, not the logical consequences of actions.

TLDR: Fear causing enemies to take more damage (due to armor strip or whatever other version) = universal effect and effectively draining strength from enemies to all allies, explicit enemy damage reduction to boost shadows = pointless forced "synergy" without any raw benefit that shouldnt have then instead already been baseline.

Quote

As for the Shadows, I don't know what you mean by only juggernauts and sentients being badass.  With the right mods, shadows could actually do damage, and add status effects.

I meant infested juggers are cool badass enemies, so are sentients, random greneer mooks are just test tube babies in scrap metal, but w/e thats entirely flavour.
And i do agree that if DE wont give players the option to properly pick the shadow que priority and what ai type they follow that giving all spawned shadows either primary, secondary or melee (or even AW gun/melee) mod scaling would work as a fix. It also wouldnt hamper the rest of his kit.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Andele3025

[Teridax68]

24 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Video plays perfectly even right now.  And yeah, the video you linked was sped up. Stop whining over your hurt epeen just because you were fractally wrong on everything.

Even now that you've reuploaded it properly... the animation's clearly not 4 seconds? The clip clearly has Nekros pressing 4 at the end of the first second and still ending before the full four second mark, so it is in fact the same pace as the video I showed. You can whine about "epeens" and me apparently being "fractally wrong on everything" (sic) all you like, it is clear you are the one here being hilariously salty, and attempting to project it onto me.

Quote

Its crappy because noone explained to you how it works (obvious by stating that it launches enemies through the map when it only does so if you angle the soul impact from the enemy right into a wall, but if you are running towards the enemy at same or slightly lower elevation than their center, its a flat knockdown or very short knockback+knockdown).

Single-target knockdown is crappy whether it launches the target through the map or just a few feet away I think is the point they're making, though. By contrast, Volt and Frost's CC allow enemies to be headshot easily while stunned, and both frames can apply it to crowds of enemies at a time via their respective 4s.

Quote

If all hard aoe cc is boring idk what to say to you and it has no FORCED synergy with the rest of his kit, what it does do is prevent enemies from shooting at you or your shadows (reducing how often you have to heal them) and making them easier to kill for his 3 by removing their armor.

To start, Laleara didn't actually criticize "all hard aoe cc" in general, so that's a strange assumption to make, but also not all synergy is forced synergy, so that too is not an appropriate defense of the ability. Not all abilities need to have some forced mechanic to synergize with each other, and some of the best combos usually rely on some natural, well-designed synergy, e.g. Nidus's 1 and 2. Thus, almost any hard CC with an armor strip would be at least as good as Terrify simply by dint of preventing enemies from shooting at you and making them easier to kill, and in fact many would be better due to not making enemies run away, which is why the ability's generally unpopular. Once again, clearly you are in the minority in defending Terrify's current state.

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I meant infested juggers are cool badass enemies, so are sentients, random greneer mooks are just test tube babies in scrap metal, but w/e thats entirely flavour.
And i do agree that if DE wont give players the option to properly pick the shadow que priority and what ai type they follow that giving all spawned shadows either primary, secondary or melee (or even AW gun/melee) mod scaling would work as a fix. It also wouldnt hamper the rest of his kit.

This really sounds like an apples and oranges kind of deal: if the only reason to completely overhaul the way Nekros selects Shadows and give him several new new menus for priority and AI type is to just make them work better... why are we even going into such fiddly control options? Wouldn't it just be better to buff the current Shadows directly? As it stands, they already do scale with enemy level, it's just that the scaling for damage is so poor, and pet/enemy AI so generally ineffective, that they don't really do much.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Teridax68

[Xzorn]

Probably should just bake the %Slow into the base Terrify ability in addition to a small damage multiplier then have the augment strip armor.

The only reason to do it that way instead of the augment having a multiplier is the mod slot would justify a higher base Armor strip value and stacking.

You also don't always need the Armor strip so it functions more elective. Either would work though.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Xzorn

[DrivaMain]

I agree on everything you said except this.

 

On 2019-12-04 at 10:10 PM, Teridax68 said:

3 - Desecrate: Nekros explodes all body parts and Shadows in the target area, consuming them and causing each of them to damage nearby enemies based on the dead enemy's maximum health and shields, and inflict a Viral proc.

• Augment - Despoil: Each exploded body part also produces a shower of health orbs, Energy orbs, and ammunition drops.

 

Until DE rework the item drop system the 54% chance of extra loot has to stay. Don't want people screaming "ThIS GaME Is ToO GRinDy REEEEEE" and the lootframe drama to happen again.

[Teridax68]

23 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

Until DE rework the item drop system the 54% chance of extra loot has to stay. Don't want people screaming "ThIS GaME Is ToO GRinDy REEEEEE" and the lootframe drama to happen again.

Oh, I completely agree; if/when loot abilities are to be removed, that needs to go hand in hand with buffs to drops across the board. Because collecting loot is such a common part of Warframe, if we need to resort to specific frames just to have a decent chance at farming our stuff, something's seriously wrong. Conversely, I think if a frame's biggest claim to fame is its ability to generate more loot, that too is an admission that the frame itself doesn't contribute very much to the mission itself. We need better baseline loot drop chances, and we need to avoid directing players to only a certain few frames for bonus loot, which means getting rid of their bonus loot drop abilities. Ideally, though, I'm with you that buffs to loot drops across the board should take center stage when this happens, with the removal of loot abilities being a secondary consequence of it.

[keikogi]

32 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Oh, I completely agree; if/when loot abilities are to be removed, that needs to go hand in hand with buffs to drops across the board. Because collecting loot is such a common part of Warframe, if we need to resort to specific frames just to have a decent chance at farming our stuff, something's seriously wrong. Conversely, I think if a frame's biggest claim to fame is its ability to generate more loot, that too is an admission that the frame itself doesn't contribute very much to the mission itself. We need better baseline loot drop chances, and we need to avoid directing players to only a certain few frames for bonus loot, which means getting rid of their bonus loot drop abilities. Ideally, though, I'm with you that buffs to loot drops across the board should take center stage when this happens, with the removal of loot abilities being a secondary consequence of it.

I don’t even know why people cling so tightly to loot abilities, DE has made their choice ( look at last round of new resources , they are not affected by loot abilities at all ), resource boosting skills have no Future in warframe. Because, the best way to both balance the resource economy and increase diversity while farming is abolishing loot frames.

[DrivaMain]

41 minutes ago, keikogi said:

look at last round of new resources , they are not affected by loot abilities at all )

At least they have a very high drop chance (50% chance). Imagine farming 15 argon crystals, 5000 mutagen samoles, 20 orokin cells if they remove loot abilities without balancing the droprate. It would be a progression nightmare.

Edited December 10, 2019 by DrivaMain

[keikogi]

10 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

At least they have a very high drop chance (50% chance). Imagine farming 15 argon crystals, 5000 mutagen samoles, 20 orokin cells if they remove loot abilities without balancing the droprate. It would be a progression nightmare.

The problem with the current drop rate is they are balanced around a farming combo

[Andele3025]

3 minutes ago, keikogi said:

The problem with the current drop rate is they are balanced around a farming combo

Seeing how DE added Khora 4 augment and and changed chesa (and technically boosted atlas in cases where you aint afking with hydroid due to gaze being instant instead of having a stoning time despite drop from 50% to 25%, at least when it comes to practical play), i kinda doubt most resources are balanced around loot frames. Tho a lot of 0.03% mod drops very much are made with the idea of obscene grind yet most of them tend to have a pre-req ontop of them in the first place (of either resources or time).
Tho as stated before when the projecting goalpost mover wanted to focus on minionmancy, Desecrates point in nekros kit is hp orbs so going even more into loot chances of some things goes off topic. I do wonder that if it didnt provide loot, could the corpse to hp conversion rate be able to be bumped up from 54% to pure 100%.

And either way for now this doesnt matter right now (due to any loot rework being probably far behind even behind duviri or whatever else DE has planned if anywhere at all in the future and) compared to his win more passive and the 1,2 and 4 augments being outdated/lacks something more, unjustly nerfed and its cc transfer part bugged (along with having the highest mod cost for capped DR/is equivalent to rework embers 2 0 heat without extra strength) respectively.

[keikogi]

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

Seeing how DE added Khora 4 augment and and changed chesa (and technically boosted atlas in cases where you aint afking with hydroid due to gaze being instant instead of having a stoning time despite drop from 50% to 25%, at least when it comes to practical play), i kinda doubt most resources are balanced around loot frames.

Loot arguments probably exist because back them DE probably tought they were a good way to revive unpopular frames. Look at the frames that received loot arguments Hydroid , Atlas and Khora. All these frames suffered from beig bad at launch ( some still bad today ) and ended up being forgotten. They changed their mind when they trird the loots changes but that did not go well with the community. I think DE takes into account loot skills when deciding cost becsuse you know they tried nerfing them which shows they arr aware of their existence and dislike them.

 

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

ho as stated before when the projecting goalpost mover wanted to focus on minionmancy, Desecrates point in nekros kit is hp orbs

I might be taking fluff to seriously here but as far as I am concerned , thrme wise , Nekros is a necromancer not a health orb factory or a loot machine. Do you know why I think this ?

First , his name is nekros not colonus

Second , his prime trailer shows him gathering a spooky zombie army , not amassing a pile of health orbs.

The fact DE #*!%ed up the execution of theme and his a health dispenser and loot pinata is besides the point.

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

And either way for now this doesnt matter right now (due to any loot rework being probably far behind even behind duviri or whatever else DE has planned if anywhere at all in the future and)

As SIMARIS would say IRRELEVANT.

Looking at the direction DE took over the years ( lots of resources unaffected by loot abities ( cryotic , kuva , new rail jack stuff , mining stuff , fishing stuff ... )) these abities will become useless without ever being touched. 

Edited December 10, 2019 by keikogi