Nekros needs a rework

[Andele3025]

5 minutes ago, keikogi said:

 I think DE takes into account loot skills when deciding cost becsuse you know they tried nerfing them which shows they arr aware of their existence and dislike them.

Or it might have been some person being greedy and wanting to add mod drop boosters.

5 minutes ago, keikogi said:

I might be taking fluff to seriously here but as far as I am concerned , thrme wise , Nekros is a necromancer not a health orb factory or a loot machine. Do you know why I think this?

Is draining life out of corpses not necromancy? Just because he doesnt drain it directly to his hp but instead in a way which gives loads of build options doesnt change the theme.

5 minutes ago, keikogi said:

Second , his prime trailer shows him gathering a spooky zombie army , not amassing a pile of health orbs.

It shows him slowly walking with a aura of fear that stunned the grineer due to raw intensity (instead of running away), it shows desecrate technocyte poof clouds all around him, it shows him using 2+ reload mods on his tigris prime, it shows him without finger spaghetti, it shows him with a slightly better soul effects on soul punch and it shows him amassing technocyte zomblers that dont fight. He has all but the better soul punch visuals and the disease of pinky spaghetti.

Tho i do wish tempo royale had the impale from it as its heavy attack.

5 minutes ago, keikogi said:

The fact DE #*!%ed up the execution of theme and his a health dispenser and loot pinata is besides the point.

Loot aside (for reasons said before), they didnt #*!% up the execution of the theme. They missed the tweaking point on his augments and pointlessly nerfed one recently, but he is the necromancer of the game. If you want a health dispenser, it are trinity and oberon (and maybe some other frame i cant remember right now) and the pizzas. Health gain via both action and theme of a ability like on nekros, inaros or harrow is not that. If anything he should get more of what you seem to call "health dispensering" by making his passive do something mid combat/be hp per hit or lifesteal that he would then share with allies in range, naturally giving some extra sustain not just to himself during ramp time for tanky builds but a extra bonus to both players and shadows and whatever else might be fighting along you. Lifesteal too is a very necromancy thing.

5 minutes ago, keikogi said:

As SIMARIS would say IRRELEVANT.

Looking at the direction DE took over the years ( lots of resources unaffected by loot abities ( cryotic , kuva , new rail jack stuff , mining stuff , fishing stuff ... )) these abities will become useless without ever being touched. 

As i said in the comment, core part of desecrate for his game loop is the life it drains by converting flesh/robotics into more technocyte (aka hp and with equilibrium energy) while on all others its a augment except the dog. Tho pets have their own massive list of problems. As long as its hp orb effect isnt removed itll work (tho also as said, i do wonder if DE would buff it to 100%).

[Klaleara]

2 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Or it might have been some person being greedy and wanting to add mod drop boosters.

Is draining life out of corpses not necromancy? Just because he doesnt drain it directly to his hp but instead in a way which gives loads of build options doesnt change the theme.

It shows him slowly walking with a aura of fear that stunned the grineer due to raw intensity (instead of running away), it shows desecrate technocyte poof clouds all around him, it shows him using 2+ reload mods on his tigris prime, it shows him without finger spaghetti, it shows him with a slightly better soul effects on soul punch and it shows him amassing technocyte zomblers that dont fight. He has all but the better soul punch visuals and the disease of pinky spaghetti.

Tho i do wish tempo royale had the impale from it as its heavy attack.

Loot aside (for reasons said before), they didnt #*!% up the execution of the theme. They missed the tweaking point on his augments and pointlessly nerfed one recently, but he is the necromancer of the game. If you want a health dispenser, it are trinity and oberon (and maybe some other frame i cant remember right now) and the pizzas. Health gain via both action and theme of a ability like on nekros, inaros or harrow is not that. If anything he should get more of what you seem to call "health dispensering" by making his passive do something mid combat/be hp per hit or lifesteal that he would then share with allies in range, naturally giving some extra sustain not just to himself during ramp time for tanky builds but a extra bonus to both players and shadows and whatever else might be fighting along you. Lifesteal too is a very necromancy thing.

As i said in the comment, core part of desecrate for his game loop is the life it drains by converting flesh/robotics into more technocyte (aka hp and with equilibrium energy) while on all others its a augment except the dog. Tho pets have their own massive list of problems. As long as its hp orb effect isnt removed itll work (tho also as said, i do wonder if DE would buff it to 100%).

Technically no, draining life is not Necromancy.  That is a gaming gimmick.  Necromancy by definition is dealing with the spirits of the dead (Which includes undead).  Nothing about poison, or life draining.

BUT, I do enjoy the aspect of life orbs, specifically with despoil.  It is a fun back and fourth game.  Only reason it kinda sucks, is due to the squishiness of Nekros already (Unless of course, you slap another augment on him, and keep his ult active 24/7).  

[Andele3025]

21 minutes ago, Klaleara said:

Technically no, draining life is not Necromancy.  That is a gaming gimmick.  Necromancy by definition is dealing with the spirits of the dead (Which includes undead).  Nothing about poison, or life draining.

Not really/very much depends on what context and if you are using those that dont include it, nothing about nekros would be necromancy. Greek/root of the word source of necromancy is divination via dead (not even dealing with them, using the souls of the dead to learn of the future), hebrew version includes exorcisms out of dead and creation of bone constructs and fetishes. Necromancy as in popular culture sourced from what christianity was trying to stomp out/use as propaganda tool that pagan cultures were devil worshippers is everything from transfer of life, knowledge and soul between dead, living and unliving (no matter which to which, including living to living/"healing arts" and some derpy ideas of old medicine due to common grounds for moss and lichen collection were gravesites), usually in the christian context using demons to do so. Meanwhile in germanic, norse and slavic lore its more tied to any forbidden art or ill one did vs the gods/nature (usually cursing one with unlife and losing onself/ones soul/place among gods/whatever the variant of the story is OR if one purifies those that do so, granting one the ability to bestow life and heal). In either case one of the protagonists of the bible (second half/post rewrite) can be called a necromancer.
Idk why note poisons unless you mean the og greek side/Hecate and Persephones ties to it which is more about knowledge on what can influence life and death, which is a "we added modern concepts of necromancy after the fact" since Hecate was very much a protector goddess (similar to the role as oldish fairy tales, being a light in the dark/protector of home/teacher of what kills you) while Persephone is sometimes noted to it because during harvest time its important to know what wont kill/poison you (aka send you to her husbands domain).

To the point tho, games didnt invent healing/life transfer as a part of necromancy. Be it video games or tabletop that influenced the video games or the books from the 1600-1800s that influenced the tabletop games AND the books that influenced those books in turn, all source it back in weird mishmashed legends that survived up till the 1300s~/Renaissanceish times (which, as it approached its end, had most of its more "wholesome"/less zombies and gore parts of it got split into whats modernly seen as more shamanistic practices or their own thing).

21 minutes ago, Klaleara said:

Only reason it kinda sucks, is due to the squishiness of Nekros already

Well health conversion does a decent job, HC+Adaptation even better, SoS only then needed for when the game goes mega stupid (or bugged like OV energy rifles, the Raptor wallhack lazor from time to time depending on sortie modifier. HC really needs a bugfix tho.

However i would very much like if his prime version (in addition to losing spaghettis and getting some mid fight sustain passive) to drop shields back down to 90 (yay for 666 shields with redirection then) while buffing base hp to 150 or even 175.

[Teridax68]

5 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Tho as stated before when the projecting goalpost mover wanted to focus on minionmancy, Desecrates point in nekros kit is hp orbs so going even more into loot chances of some things goes off topic. I do wonder that if it didnt provide loot, could the corpse to hp conversion rate be able to be bumped up from 54% to pure 100%.

So putting aside the hilarious levels of salt on display here, the topic is and has in fact always been loot with regards to Desecrate. As keikogi mentioned, being a health orb dispenser is pretty far down on the list of iconic necromancer abilities (if it's even on the list at all), when there are far more thematically relevant alternatives out there, including with regards to desecrating corpses (Nekros could explode them, for example). If spawning health orbs is really all you care about, you could indeed change his current passive to make enemies spawn a guaranteed health orb on death when near Nekros, which could open up a slot for some genuinely interesting active.

[Andele3025]

1 minute ago, Teridax68 said:

So putting aside the hilarious levels of salt on display here, the topic is and has in fact always been loot with regards to Desecrate. As keikogi mentioned, being a health orb dispenser is pretty far down on the list of iconic necromancer abilities (if it's even on the list at all), when there are far more thematically relevant alternatives out there, including with regards to desecrating corpses (Nekros could explode them, for example). If spawning health orbs is really all you care about, you could indeed change his current passive to make enemies spawn a guaranteed health orb on death when near Nekros, which could open up a slot for some genuinely interesting active.

Putting aside that you have demonstrably kept projecting and were wrong on all accounts, no. Its literally in top 3 things a necromancer does. Gain knowledge from the dead, raise the dead and gain life from both the living and the dead. Making corpses explode on the other hand is a thing chemical reactions caused by decay and bacteria/gas does, not necromancy.

And sure for the passive part, id love the mega buff of nekros having 5 abilities and desecrate unable to be nullified just like other passives.

[keikogi]

3 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Putting aside that you have demonstrably kept projecting and were wrong on all accounts, no. Its literally in top 3 things a necromancer does. Gain knowledge from the dead, raise the dead and gain life from both the living and the dead. Making corpses explode on the other hand is a thing chemical reactions caused by decay and bacteria/gas does, not necromancy.

And sure for the passive part, id love the mega buff of nekros having 5 abilities and desecrate unable to be nullified just like other passives.

What is he projecting really ? And why is he wrong ? 

Not a native speaker nor do I have deep knowleged on european culture but as far as I could find this is necromancy 

Necromancy (/ˈnɛkrəmænsi/)^[1][2] is a practice of magic involving communication with the dead – either by summoning their spirits as apparitions or raising them bodily – for the purpose of divination, imparting the means to foretell future events, discover hidden knowledge, to bring someone back from the dead, or to use the dead as a weapon.

Making bodies blow up does classify as using the dead as weapon. 

[Andele3025]

22 minutes ago, keikogi said:

What is he projecting really ? And why is he wrong ? 

All in prior posts and in short, he believes that baseline shield of shadows can compete with adaptation in damage reduction on per slot value and can be achieved faster on any level where you would need high DR, that shadows of the dead has a casting time of 3s and not 4s, that a frames core gameplay skill needs to be flashy, etc.

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Not a native speaker nor do I have deep knowleged on european culture but as far as I could find this is necromancy 

Necromancy (/ˈnɛkrəmænsi/)^[1][2] is a practice of magic involving communication with the dead – either by summoning their spirits as apparitions or raising them bodily – for the purpose of divination, imparting the means to foretell future events, discover hidden knowledge, to bring someone back from the dead, or to use the dead as a weapon.

Making bodies blow up does classify as using the dead as weapon. 

The weapon part is/was in functionally every case the corpse(s) being rasied as undead soldiers or spirits brought back for their sorcery/witchcraft/spellcasting.
Making corpses explode and calling it necromancy is a bit like bludgeoning someone with the butt or grip of a gun and calling it gun violence. True by taking the words on their own literally, not by technicality or definition.

Not to mention that because of the style of game warframe is and corpses having a 12-15s decay time without death animation modifiers, a corpse explosion effect wouldnt be very practical as a actual damage skill/to do anything to enemies without having someone (nidus or vauban) to vacuum them all together or it being a defense mission with high amount of choke points which is like 3 grineer tiles. Meanwhile spawning health orbs is not just functional for the game loop but also is a build enabler.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Andele3025

[Teridax68]

32 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Putting aside that you have demonstrably kept projecting and were wrong on all accounts, no.

So you're saying that littering my posts on here with a single, desperate haha emoji each time, mentioning me even in posts where you're not addressing me with pure, childish rancor, and insisting with equal amounts of desperation that I'm the one projecting my issues here is... not salty? Sure, Jan.

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Its literally in top 3 things a necromancer does. Gain knowledge from the dead, raise the dead and gain life from both the living and the dead.

Which sources mention gaining life from the living and dead as a necromantic ability?

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Making corpses explode on the other hand is a thing chemical reactions caused by decay and bacteria/gas does, not necromancy.

Apparently elementary video game culture or even a quick Google search is too much to ask. Have some examples of corpse explosion abilities for Diablo II, Diablo III, Divinity 2, and Slay the Spire. Notice how each time the ability is either specifically referred to as necromantic magic, or used by a necromancer. Manipulating corpses is absolutely a necromantic ability, not just whichever tripe you mentioned about bacteria, just as zombies can come in necromantic or biohazard flavor as well.

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And sure for the passive part, id love the mega buff of nekros having 5 abilities and desecrate unable to be nullified just like other passives.

I'm of a similar opinion: I may not have come across this way, but I in fact want to buff Nekros, and make him better at everything he does now, minus bonus loot generation. Looking at what he does, he outputs utility, crowd control, and potentially good damage via indirect means, namely his Shadows: currently, he's not amazing at any of those individually, let alone together, so he really does deserve all the love he can get. In terms of pure gameplay, I'd also like him to have more toys to play with, especially because Desecrate is just an aura one toggles on, which makes it a passive ability taking up an active slot. Shifting the health orb drops to his passive would open a slot for another, proper active, eliminate the overlap between his current passive and 3, and also eliminate the annoyance of the ability turning off when downed, nullified, or reset after falling into a pit.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Teridax68

[Andele3025]

Ill let another persons post speak for me since following the topic is apparently a issue in addition to subtracting 5 from 9 when it comes to seconds.

2 hours ago, Klaleara said:

Technically no, that is a gaming gimmick.

As far as necromancy and life manipulation, Norse and Slavic myths (draugrs and revenant like creatures from the balkans), christianity describing it as such along with it being capable of other vile practices (some of which include illusions and invisibility by hiding ones own life essence, which only certain animals or gimmicks could reveal), pretty much a universal feature of whats now commonly dubbed as wraiths (mostly due to the nazgul, but point is over half the world has cold apparitions that drain life out of living creatures on touch, including odin himself summoning such creatures in norse myth), faust, bram stokers dracula, etc. Oh and merely the fact up to the start of humanism/up till the early Renaissance it was seen as a type of sorcery/magic used for utility and medicine and opposed on that ground by the churches of abrahamic religions?

Edited December 10, 2019 by Andele3025

[keikogi]

33 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

All in prior posts and in short, he believes that baseline shield of shadows can compete with adaptation in damage reduction on per slot value and can be achieved faster on any level where you would need high DR, that shadows of the dead has a casting time of 3s and not 4s, that a frames core gameplay skill needs to be flashy, etc.

He is kinda right about that adaptation is way worse than people think. Not going to dive into the math and reason but here somelese can do it. Here is a post on reddit explaining it 

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/ckav06/the_true_effectiveness_of_adaptation_almost_never/

Aditionaly you can recast shadow of the dead before you loose your DR. But you nekros does not have the kind of EHP necessary to tank before adaptation gets going

As far is I'm concerned shield of shadowns is just more realiable, it requires way to much streght but is better than adaptation.

Also why shouldn't the core gameplay loop be engaging and flashy ?

33 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Not to mention that because of the style of game warframe is and corpses having a 12-15s decay time without death animation modifiers, a corpse explosion effect wouldnt be very practical as a actual damage skill/to do anything to enemies without having someone (nidus or vauban) to vacuum them all together or it being a defense mission with high amount of choke points which is like 3 grineer tiles. Meanwhile spawning health orbs is not just functional for the game loop but also is a build enabler.

Not really enemies usually come in waves if you are not using am aoe weapon killing the first enemy them using his copse as a explosive would work really well.

Edit: sorry broken Lin gona fix ot assap FIxed

 

Edited December 10, 2019 by keikogi

[Andele3025]

38 minutes ago, keikogi said:

He is kinda right about that adaptation is way worse than people think. Not going to dive into the math and reason but here somelese can do it.

Its worse than just assuming its flat 90% because its calculation works along with the elemental resist mods, its still for most practical applications 87~90% DR (as enemies with high slash tend to come in melee or mixed damage packets and the sources of toxic and viral which have modifiers vs player hp are infested and most of the toxic and viral procs are non-scaling or extremely low scaling damage till it gets to the goo pools), it being more effective as single mod DR source and far more effective during the ramp period of nekros when he is the weakest/pre shadows and pre possible health conversion stacks if using it. If you check a few pages before you will note my pointing the very fact that SoS gets worth its slot as DR only when built around it which is a 2(.5) slot clost (it, blind rage and power drift, possibly not PD as 83.5% is more than enough ontop of the ehp of health conversion and adaptation), thus in almost all situations first going Adaptation (and possibly handspring if you find value in the half-bugged knockdown resist of SoS)

Edit: Forgot worst case of high division, so it merely still works out to reducing grineer mooks (lancers, troopers with that setup from 100-150 a shot/burst at mid levels to 20-30 damage or 3s of heavy gunner raffal going from a dead 740 hp with guardian up to just barely taken 140 hp worth of damage, so still floating around 80%.

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Also why shouldn't the core gameplay loop be engaging and flashy ?

Engaging and flashy are 2 different things, argument was about flashyness there. And refueling your hp and energy by having a reason to keep killing enemies is very engaging because you have a direct positive feedback for not skipping over enemies.

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Not really enemies usually come in waves if you are not using am aoe weapon killing the first enemy them isimg his copse as a explosive would work really well.

Except that thats only (partially) true in defense and still doesnt work if you are using a shotgun (especially with punchthrough) or melee (because of cleave). Most of warframe operates on a area kill speed basis, thats why pure damage skills that are single target tend to not be of much value without a secondary benefit or extreme scaling. Not to mention that clumped explosions tend to require weapon input to be of value to how one plays/builds a frame (vauban 1 augment is good since he can clump enemies over a big range himself and scales off your weapons damage, titanias lantern poof... well i doubt that many people even remember that it deals damage on the end of the effect... and it too inherently attempts to pull enemies close to it with a low taunt... iirc it couldnt kill level 80 butchers/crewmen/chargers).

 

Edited December 10, 2019 by Andele3025

[Teridax68]

34 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Its worse than just assuming its flat 90% because its calculation works along with the elemental resist mods, its still for most practical applications 87~90% DR (as enemies with high slash tend to come in melee or mixed damage packets and the sources of toxic and viral which have modifiers vs player hp are infested and most of the toxic and viral procs are non-scaling or extremely low scaling damage till it gets to the goo pools), it being more effective as single mod DR source and far more effective during the ramp period of nekros when he is the weakest/pre shadows and pre possible health conversion stacks if using it. If you check a few pages before you will note my pointing the very fact that SoS gets worth its slot as DR only when built around it which is a 2(.5) slot clost (it, blind rage and power drift, possibly not PD as 83.5% is more than enough ontop of the ehp of health conversion and adaptation), thus in almost all situations first going Adaptation (and possibly handspring if you find value in the half-bugged knockdown resist of SoS)

As pointed out in those very same pages, though, measuring in terms of pure slot costs is rather silly when Power Strength also benefits Terrify and SotD, and when SoS provides flat-out better and more reliable protection than Adaptation. Standing around in Operator Mode all the time in the hopes of stacking up damage resistance for some (but not all) incoming types might sound only slightly bad on paper, but is even worse in practice.

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

Ill let another persons post speak for me since following the topic is apparently a issue in addition to subtracting 5 from 9 when it comes to seconds.

This particular attempt at indirectness has had you say something so completely unrelated to how SotD's cast timer was being measured that it comes across as more than a tad awkward. Better luck next time, though.

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As far as necromancy and life manipulation, Norse and Slavic myths (draugrs and revenant like creatures from the balkans), christianity describing it as such along with it being capable of other vile practices (some of which include illusions and invisibility by hiding ones own life essence, which only certain animals or gimmicks could reveal), pretty much a universal feature of whats now commonly dubbed as wraiths (mostly due to the nazgul, but point is over half the world has cold apparitions that drain life out of living creatures on touch, including odin himself summoning such creatures in norse myth), faust, bram stokers dracula, etc. Oh and merely the fact up to the start of humanism/up till the early Renaissance it was seen as a type of sorcery/magic used for utility and medicine and opposed on that ground by the churches of abrahamic religions?

Literally none of those creatures mentioned are proper necromancers, though. As you yourself mentioned earlier, necromancy was typically thought of as divination magic, and it is only around the modern era that it expanded beyond the theme of raising the dead, to more general manipulation of life forces and whatnot. It is perhaps time to accept that necromancers as they are generally conceived of in gaming don't follow your own personal definition.

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

All in prior posts and in short, he believes that baseline shield of shadows can compete with adaptation in damage reduction on per slot value and can be achieved faster on any level where you would need high DR, that shadows of the dead has a casting time of 3s and not 4s, that a frames core gameplay skill needs to be flashy, etc.

Just to be clear, you are in fact projecting your original position upon me:

On 2019-12-05 at 11:08 AM, Andele3025 said:

It doesnt matter how powerful something is in terms of good gameloop that scales, its about the big flashy kinda unique thing.

Your words, not mine. I do, however, agree with keikogi that any frame's core gameplay loop should appear attractive even to someone who doesn't necessarily play Warframe yet. This is why it's not a great idea to make up excuses for Nekros apparently being this especially boring kind of necromancer under some definition you just made up, because it would be a lot better to make Nekros much more of the proper necromancer he's expected to be, and thus make him a lot more appealing to players right off the bat. Flashiness tends to be difficult to define precisely in video game terms, but engaging gameplay on the other hand tends to follow some more consistent rules: having a reason to kill enemies is certainly engaging, but orbs are likely not the most engaging reward to dangle over the player, and loot is only engaging because everyone wants more loot, not because it provides benefits within that same mission. Once more, it is not difficult to imagine necromantic effects that build off of corpses, such as corpse explosions or the like, so there really is no reason to defend a boring ability here when its core theme could easily be delivered a lot better.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Teridax68

[Andele3025]

On 2019-12-10 at 6:11 PM, Teridax68 said:

As pointed out in those very same pages, though, measuring in terms of pure slot costs is rather silly when Power Strength also benefits Terrify and SotD, and when SoS provides flat-out better and more reliable protection than Adaptation. Standing around in Operator Mode all the time in the hopes of stacking up damage resistance for some (but not all) incoming types might sound only slightly bad on paper, but is even worse in practice.

Except its not, i showed you a video that it takes sub 1s to stack up 90% of a type while just the animation for sotd is 4s and no, when you build full tank you have the strength because you put on the strength for SoS, not because you racked up strength beforehand (especially not now that CT got nerfed as before there was at least a reason to maybe slot intensify/umbral intensify) but since one already has HC and Adapation on and wants to go into levels that DE themselves are ignoring.

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This particular attempt at indirectness has had you say something so completely unrelated to how SotD's cast timer was being measured that it comes across as more than a tad awkward. Better luck next time, though.

What? Ill just attribute this word salad to your thought capacity.

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Literally none of those creatures mentioned are proper necromancers, though. As you yourself mentioned earlier, necromancy was typically thought of as divination magic, and it is only around the modern era that it expanded beyond the theme of raising the dead, to more general manipulation of life forces and whatnot. It is perhaps time to accept that necromancers as they are generally conceived of in gaming don't follow your own personal definition.

No. I myself stated ancient greece thought of it as divination. You have the time span from between 100~500 till the 1300s when necromancy was either utility magic, "the forbidden arts" or both (start and subtype of necromancy) depending on culture. It generally unifying during the Renaissance and codified from the 1600-1800s (mostly due to Gothic horror). You liking Diablos necromancer corpse explosion (or any of the games made by blizz or by ex-blizz staff that like the trope on necro characters) is your personal bias, not the staple of the fiction and not something you can port to warframe ignoring the differences in gameplay and design.

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Just to be clear, Teridax68 is in fact projecting:

Ty for acknowledging that. Its nice to see that you accept that Nekros power doesnt need to be flashy despite the flashy parts of a kit being what people latch on and that i was right, the non-loot parts of nekros being of value just as night equinox or ivaras quiver or excals blind are (last of which ironically is a flash yet the vast majority of people ignore the raw amount of damage it enables via stealth mod).

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This is why it's not a great idea to make up excuses for Nekros apparently being this especially boring kind of necromancer

Maybe he is boring to you because you dont know how to play him. Just as you are ignoring reality on what the classic necromancer in fiction is.

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because it would be a lot better to make Nekros much more of the proper necromancer he's expected to be

So, literally what he is? He fears, he drains life out of corpses and raises the dead as his mini army.

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 but engaging gameplay on the other hand tends to follow some more consistent rules

The very core things current nekros has in spades.

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having a reason to kill enemies is certainly engaging, but orbs are likely not the most engaging reward to dangle over the player,

Clearly, one of the most unique builds warframe has to offer by using hp to get orbs which bring both ehp and energy to get corpses to use his hp on, constantly encouraging him to kill and kill and kill while being able to either upkeep or store enemies for a new set of shadows, a ability to use for defense during the few weakpoints in his soul punch and a aoe hard cc that helps him safely ramp.

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Once more, it is not difficult to imagine necromantic effects that build off of corpses, such as corpse explosions or the like, so there really is no reason to defend a boring ability here when its core theme could easily be delivered a lot better.

Again, corpse explosion not only doesnt gel with warframes pace and enemy density, but is a thing influenced by 1) gas buildup on corpses 2) bomb trapped corpses during the world wars which Blizzard made a necro thing (others such as divinity series, scarred lands, pathfinder, MTG picking it up along the way sometimes not even as a necromancy but another type of magic). You cant argue from theme if your point isnt tied to the theme AND isnt practical in a way that works within the genre, Titania lantern doesnt work as a damage ability already, what makes you think a version without the poor taunt would? Or do you want a Copy of Mirages 2 augment with around 8x efficiency due to raw difference in targetable drops+ area vs mob density?

[Deus-Machina]

The only thing I'd like to see reworked is smarter shadow AI. 😃  It would be cool if SoS would pull them about. I'll admit it's a little hard to be on move with the shadows. (Rather then having to stick with your shadows, your shadows would stick with you. Just my Opinion.)

 

Also, you know those faction npc's? The ones you can click on and tell them to stay put or follow you? Yeah that would be awesome too.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Deus-Machina

[Klaleara]

8 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Again, corpse explosion not only doesnt gel with warframes pace and enemy density, but is a thing influenced by 1) gas buildup on corpses 2) bomb trapped corpses during the world wars which Blizzard made a necro thing (others such as divinity series, scarred lands, pathfinder, MTG picking it up along the way sometimes not even as a necromancy but another type of magic). You cant argue from theme if your point isnt tied to the theme AND isnt practical in a way that works within the genre, Titania lantern doesnt work as a damage ability already, what makes you think a version without the poor taunt would? Or do you want a Copy of Mirages 2 augment with around 8x efficiency due to raw difference in targetable drops+ area vs mob density?

You're right that corpse explosion was pretty much created by Diablo as far as I can tell.  Something else probably has it too.  Plenty of other games do.

But your statement on it being against the pacing is completely off, I'm not even sure how you could think that?  You kill something, you hit corpse explosion, and it explodes all corpses around you.  You can do this on the fly, and in an instant.

What is bad for pacing, is Shadow of the Dead, cause they just stay in one spot, and you can't kill them, or make them teleport.  At least other defensive abilities can be moved.

Also, Corpse Explosion is fun as hell in Diablo.  I wouldn't complain one bit about it being added to Desecrate.  Nekros certainly could use at least one ability that does damage.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Klaleara

[Deus-Machina]

Oh yeah here's an idea too! You know that soul punch augment? How about it creates a shadow of the player too? Considering rezzing without full health. AND if you have SoS on while you do it. It shields to the player rezzed.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Deus-Machina

[Klaleara]

6 minutes ago, Deus-Machina said:

Oh yeah here's an idea too! You know that soul punch augment? How about it creates a shadow of the player too? Considering rezzing without full health. AND if you have SoS on while you do it. It shields to the player rezzed.

Decent idea, but Nekros doesn't need MORE augments to make an ability useful.  Should just be baked in.  Also even with that, I wouldn't call Soul Punch any good.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Klaleara

[Deus-Machina]

Heh yeah. Wasn't actually thinking of making more augments, just modifying the current one. But I'd agree that soul punch and shadow AI (or behavior) are the TWO biggest problems (not really problems, just areas that could be tuned) with Nekros

How about just changing soul punch to have a targeted shadow ability, just target the mob you want and BAM instant shadow of that mob (or player when he's been downed) I can't tell you how many times I wish I had a mob of a certain type when I saw it. Killed it and then 777'd and well I didn't have one.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Deus-Machina

[Andele3025]

16 minutes ago, Klaleara said:

But your statement on it being against the pacing is completely off, I'm not even sure how you could think that?  You kill something, you hit corpse explosion, and it explodes all corpses around you.  You can do this on the fly, and in an instant.

Well im judging it based on whats stated and existing comparable cases. Best case scenario its buff toggle that essentially gives all weapons a acid shells/vulcan blitz like effect and is a on kill effect instead of corpse explosion which cuts away from weapon augment options. If you even need to hit the button (even if its a 1h or just upper body action), you already have a requirement for a big aoe slow or clumping effect if either range or damage arent overtuned or causes corpses to trigger hard taunts OR it encouraging you sitting in a place and spamming the button with maxxed out range with enough damage to kill mooks if it has any ability to kill enemies in the first place unless you make enemies killed by the explosion itself not create valid corpses for the explosion (which just turns it into the 2016 desecrate but instead of guaranteed hp is a maybe aoe damage to 3~ish enemies on a clumped map).

And then add on the logical consequences of either case. Making a frame around exploding enemies on kill without extra effects that are useful no matter what the explosion itself does 100% isnt impossible, it just takes 2-3 abilities depending on how many effects one wants to load in at once and most likely the frames passive to not escalate into either useless or now/no game loop turret play.

19 minutes ago, Klaleara said:

 I wouldn't call Soul Punch any good.

Its damage isnt any good, but its cc is for a 1h 50m base range ability for which you can pick the type of cc with positioning is solid as 1h 1 abilities goes.

[Andele3025]

24 minutes ago, Deus-Machina said:

How about just changing soul punch to have a targeted shadow ability, just target the mob you want and BAM instant shadow of that mob (or player when he's been downed) I can't tell you how many times I wish I had a mob of a certain type when I saw it.

That (as in spawning a shadow on soul punch use of the mob) + giving either a shadow of the player when cast on them (with its damage being proportional to the % of your energy used, since after all player loadouts are massively higher in dps) without the increased aggro flag or giving the rezzed ally invul duration (again proportional to energy used) would be perfect for updating the augment as rezzing with potato kid is as safe and extremely rare is the situation where there isnt time for void dashes to the enemy.

[Klaleara]

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

Well im judging it based on whats stated and existing comparable cases. Best case scenario its buff toggle that essentially gives all weapons a acid shells/vulcan blitz like effect and is a on kill effect instead of corpse explosion which cuts away from weapon augment options. If you even need to hit the button (even if its a 1h or just upper body action), you already have a requirement for a big aoe slow or clumping effect if either range or damage arent overtuned or causes corpses to trigger hard taunts OR it encouraging you sitting in a place and spamming the button with maxxed out range with enough damage to kill mooks if it has any ability to kill enemies in the first place unless you make enemies killed by the explosion itself not create valid corpses for the explosion (which just turns it into the 2016 desecrate but instead of guaranteed hp is a maybe aoe damage to 3~ish enemies on a clumped map).

And then add on the logical consequences of either case. Making a frame around exploding enemies on kill without extra effects that are useful no matter what the explosion itself does 100% isnt impossible, it just takes 2-3 abilities depending on how many effects one wants to load in at once and most likely the frames passive to not escalate into either useless or now/no game loop turret play.

Its damage isnt any good, but its cc is for a 1h 50m base range ability for which you can pick the type of cc with positioning is solid as 1h 1 abilities goes.

You will literally never convince me that soul punch is good.  Don't even waste your time on trying lol.

Also your rant on corpse explosion has confused the hell out of me.  Have you even used corpse explosion in another game?  D3 uses it, and its the fastest damn game I've played short of a bullet hell, far faster than Warframe. 

[Andele3025]

7 hours ago, Klaleara said:

You will literally never convince me that soul punch is good.  Don't even waste your time on trying lol.

Ok. Tho im not against DE fiddling with the damage on it.

7 hours ago, Klaleara said:

D3 uses it, and its the fastest damn game I've played short of a bullet hell, far faster than Warframe. 

Well for one in D3, its viable GR setups dont use corpses for corpse explosion, you clump enemies, drop LotD and then spam it hoping it generates enough CD for the next big packing (well corpse lance is the corpse skill used due to higher mods, speed and proliferation, but thats semantics). And in ok, pace in D3 is a much smoother curve due to selectable difficulty levels, but if one is comparing what people stick to play in D3 and WF, D3 is still slower on actions done that arent waiting basis (guesstimating by power creep by now the average should be GR75-100 instead of GR100-ish being the top end best play vs Kuva/Lich/sticking to ESO instead of leaving in 1-4, etc/ with the equivalent of base game from normal to T7~10 being starchart+sorties), being paced with periods of movement, damage buildup and then usually big pops of loot (or extra time/meter in "end game") before returning the movement period.

TLDR: It feels faster because you are doing stuff while ""waiting"" while in warframe a nice chunk of mission types actually do have waiting with too low spawn rate to make it not waiting without rewards for going beyond.
Actually its topical slightly to nekros since most people use him to patch up the flaw of low spawn rates for survival.

[Teridax68]

On 2019-12-10 at 7:15 PM, Andele3025 said:

Except its not, i showed you a video that it takes sub 1s to stack up 90% of a type while just the animation for sotd is 4s

Which was in exceptional circumstances and only against a single damage type. Given that there are sixteen damage types in the game, even if SotD was a full second longer, as you keep insisting against all evidence, it would still be superior, particularly as in the situation you showcased the enemy would be applying at least two other damage types simultaneously that you'd be stacking no DR against.

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and no, when you build full tank you have the strength because you put on the strength for SoS, not because you racked up strength beforehand (especially not now that CT got nerfed as before there was at least a reason to maybe slot intensify/umbral intensify)

This argument makes no sense. It is of no importance what your intent is when building Strength, the stat will still benefit the other abilities all the same.

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but since one already has HC and Adapation on and wants to go into levels that DE themselves are ignoring.

And with what, exactly? Putting aside how this completely contradicts your earlier claim that one cannot go for a tank build and a Desecrate build at the same time, anyone who's played Nekros would know you'd also need a Vitality, and that Adaptation is notoriously inept at providing the immediate durability you so desperately want to pretend it gives. At this point I'm curious as to what your build even is, given how the modding advice you've given thus far seems to be contradicting itself.

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What? Ill just attribute this word salad to your thought capacity.

Or perhaps your own, as the statement is grammatically, syntactically, and semantically correct. You tried to be smart, and failed.

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No. I myself stated ancient greece thought of it as divination (and jews had their own weird thoughts about it). You have the time span from between 100~500 till the 1300s when necromancy was either utility magic, "the forbidden arts" or both (start and subtype of necromancy) depending on culture. It generally unifying during the Renaissance and codified from the 1600-1800s (mostly due to Gothic horror).

You are literally just agreeing with what I've said regarding the history of necromancy.

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You liking Diablos necromancer corpse explosion (or any of the games made by blizz or by ex-blizz staff that like the trope on necro characters) is your personal bias, not the staple of the fiction and not something you can port to warframe ignoring the differences in gameplay and design.

Slay the Spire and Divinity 2 were not made by Blizzard or ex-Blizzard staff, so this isn't me speaking from personal bias, this is you speaking from some loopy conspiracy theory, where apparently you think Blizzard has infiltrated gaming companies, all just to instil the notion that necromancers can make corpses do this thing you don't think they should do. Corpse explosion has entered the range of archetypal necromancer abilities in video games since it was introduced; deal with it.

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Ty for acknowledging that. Its nice to see that you accept that Nekros power doesnt need to be flashy despite the flashy parts of a kit being what people latch on and that i was right, the non-loot parts of nekros being of value just as night equinox or ivaras quiver or excals blind are (last of which ironically is a flash yet the vast majority of people ignore the raw amount of damage it enables via stealth mod).

I love how the cognitive dissonance is so strong here that you cannot even bring yourself to quote me properly. Also, you are full-on lying here, yet again:

On 2019-12-05 at 11:08 AM, Andele3025 said:

Doesnt depend on its augment, but more importantly, he isn't known for much more for the same reason why e.g. saryns melee aoe stun setup or a night equinox arent what people think of when someone says saryn or equniox. It doesnt matter how powerful something is in terms of good gameloop that scales, its about the big flashy kinda unique thing.

You are claiming to have said the literal opposite of what you've actually said. Meanwhile, this was my response:

On 2019-12-05 at 11:26 AM, Teridax68 said:

I don't quite agree, because Sleep Equinox is in fact a pretty well-known build on her, either almost or exactly on par with her radial Slash aura build. 

So why lie? Why act in such a blatantly dishonest manner in this discussion when you should well know that this publicly destroys your credibility? Just admit that you were wrong initially, or don't mention it at all. Drawing attention to the fact just means you'll get fact-checked. Meanwhile, I'm not even advocating your own point that abilities shouldn't be flashy; as I am specifically pushing the point that abilities should at the very least look appealing even to people not immersed in the game or its details, which may or may not result in the ability being flashier. Really, your tactics here don't make any sense, as you're attempting to rewrite what I've said when my post is literally right above yours, and can be quoted back at you on-demand.

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Maybe he is boring to you because you dont know how to play him. Just as you are ignoring reality on what the classic necromancer in fiction is.

I clearly know how to play him better than you do, though, as our respective stats show. I can even give you my build to try out, and have asked for yours. Similarly, I'm not ignoring reality in any way, as even you have agreed with me on the history of necromancy, with the one difference being you thinking the ability to explode corpses somehow has nothing to do with manipulating the dead, and is an evil conspiracy by Blizzard to make you look wrong on this internet argument.

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So, literally what he is? He fears, he drains life out of corpses and raises the dead as his mini army.

And all in the most boring, ineffectual manner possible. His fear is more disruptive than helpful, his "life drain" is just an extra item spawn chance, and his mini-army hits like a wet noodle even with high Power Strength. He deserves better, and if you cared at all about Nekros beyond his ability to press 3 and leech, you'd be asking for better as well.

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The very core things current nekros has in spades.

... where?

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Clearly, one of the most unique builds warframe has to offer by using hp to get orbs which bring both ehp and energy to get corpses to use his hp on, constantly encouraging him to kill and kill and kill while being able to either upkeep or store enemies for a new set of shadows, a ability to use for defense during the few weakpoints in his soul punch and a aoe hard cc that helps him safely ramp.

... do you actually play Nekros? Because in practice Desecrate just boils down to more loot popping up while your allies kill stuff, Soul Punch is too piddly to do anything meaningful besides lob a single enemy around, and Terrify makes enemies harder to kill properly. You cannot honestly convince anyone here that you're this master of Nekros, let alone a better Nekros player than someone with better stats on him than you, while insisting that Soul Punch is a good ability to use against the hordes of high-level enemies advanced players typically face.

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Again, corpse explosion not only doesnt gel with warframes pace and enemy density,

This is complete bull, as Klaleara pointed out. Diablo 2 and 3 are similarly fast-paced games where the ability works just fine, and Warframe typically has a high density of enemies, so the ability would be a perfect fit.

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but is a thing influenced by 1) gas buildup on corpses 2) bomb trapped corpses during the world wars which Blizzard made a necro thing (others such as divinity series, scarred lands, pathfinder, MTG picking it up along the way sometimes not even as a necromancy but another type of magic).

Or, you know, just manipulating the dead? I don't even understand what you're trying to argue here, as you're expecting me to believe this narrative you've made up on the spot that fails to exclude necromantic means of making corpses explode.

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You cant argue from theme if your point isnt tied to the theme AND isnt practical in a way that works within the genre, Titania lantern doesnt work as a damage ability already, what makes you think a version without the poor taunt would? Or do you want a Copy of Mirages 2 augment with around 8x efficiency due to raw difference in targetable drops+ area vs mob density?

Titania's Lantern doesn't work because the explosion is severely delayed and weak, and its ragdolling and enemy invincibility effect both do more harm than good. It has virtually nothing to do with the ability discussed, i.e. an immediate explosion with scaling damage, which has proven to work well on Vulcan Blitz and Acid Shells.

Edited December 12, 2019 by Teridax68

[(PSN)Aveflamewolf]

I support reworking Nekros to not be farming based. DE has recently added several resources in which no loot frame can augment or increase. If DE continues to added more resources that can't be affected by drop-rate abilities, I see no point in having a frame that can't do more then survive on the battlefield.

Edited December 12, 2019 by (PS4)Aveflamewolf
Misspelling

[Andele3025]

Ignoring all the lies, whine, cheap semantics and projecting

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And with what, exactly? Putting aside how this completely contradicts your earlier claim that one cannot go for a Shield of Shadows tank build and a Desecrate build at the same time

If you want big range which is what a desecrate focused setup goes for, yes, you can hybrid going 40-90 on either stat (most likely 60% range 99% strength) which still leaves you with a slot cost where either equi, flow or HC need to be dropped to fit it. You wont drop vit or adapt or despoil since it would then be entirely dysfunctional so even on a hybrid setup you have to compromise.

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You are literally just agreeing with what I've said regarding the history of necromancy.

No, you attempted to focus on what noone considers necromancy as necromancy. Noone thinks of invisibility as necromancy either yet it was seen as such during a short period of time. The classic definition and fantasy it goes over as a trope were explained already.

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Corpse explosion has entered the range of archetypal necromancer abilities in video games since it was introduced; deal with it.

Except it hasnt. Youll find more rogueish archetypes having non-magical teleportation abilities than exploding corpses and even that is usually dubbed by its origin (some ninja ability) or made magic.

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I love how the cognitive dissonance is so strong here that you cannot even bring yourself to quote me properly.

You being unable to follow context isnt my issue. Your argument went non-loot part of nekros isnt known, i respond with the quote before about neither being stun saryn or night equinox being as well known as the nuke a room variants, you argue the opposite, i state the very quote you call a lie that flashy S#&$ will be what people remember, you start arguing about how nekros should be flashy. The only lies are on your part.

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I clearly know how to play him better than you do, though, as our respective stats show. I can even give you my build to try out, and have asked for yours.

You have sub 200 hours on him, 0 knowledge of his ability intricacies and suggested to focus him on minions. So thats demonstrably not true.

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And all in the most boring, ineffectual manner possible. His fear is more disruptive than helpful, his "life drain" is just an extra item spawn chance, and his mini-army hits like a wet noodle even with high Power Strength. He deserves better, and if you cared at all about Nekros beyond his ability to press 3 and leech, you'd be asking for better as well.

Except its demonstrably not, he enables one of the most unique builds in warframe, his fear is only disruptive to allies which should be fixed by baking in part of the bandaid augment now that it no longer provides any power to his 2, his corpse siphon is a corpse siphon and his army keeps him alive by distracting enemies.
You do not understand (or even know) the kit, you refuse to use it and are suggesting a frame that isnt him. Go play nova if you want enemies exploding.

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... do you actually play Nekros? Because in practice Desecrate just boils down to more loot popping up while your allies kill stuff,

No it doesnt, its a health loop or combat resource conversion depending on if you play him with despoil or not, loot can entirely be removed and it would still be a good core of his gameplay.

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Soul Punch is too piddly to do anything meaningful besides lob a single enemy around,

Except its a 1 handed animation that has 50 range and covers a weakspot of his kit, he is focused around himself thus a long range cc fits perfectly.

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and Terrify makes enemies harder to kill properly.

For your allies.

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You cannot honestly convince anyone here that you're this master of Nekros, let alone a better Nekros player than someone with better stats on him than you, while insisting that Soul Punch is a good ability to use against the hordes of high-level enemies advanced players typically face.

Yes, because against the hordes of enemies that are right next to you you use your melee or shotguns (and terrify), you use his 1 for the thing his 1 does, either knock down or knock away a single enemy that is a threat or not practical to hit with melee. Also you dont have better stats, you have what 5% playtime, i got 40%.

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This is complete bull, as Klaleara pointed out. Diablo 2 and 3 are similarly fast-paced games where the ability works just fine, and Warframe typically has a high density of enemies, so the ability would be a perfect fit.

Demonstrably isnt from titania lantern... or even the explosions of nova 4 (which is from a design point already some 5 levels of better warframe pacing from corpse explosions).

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Titania's Lantern doesn't work because the explosion is severely delayed

Its on button hold. Be the delay casting the ability 4 times and enemies entering its range or getting a vauban to vacuum up enemies, kill 1-2 without killing every enemy and then pressing a button is not much of a practical difference unless you max range and the corpse explosion doesnt care for stats which is just afk turreting.

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and weak

yes, as is any flat damage non-true damage non-scaling ability even with the 3k damage of lantern

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 enemy invincibility effect

That part got removed, its now a damage store same as nyx, nidus, garuda, etc.

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which has proven to work well on Vulcan Blitz and Acid Shells.

So you want a non-stat scaling weapon buff not corpse explosion.

Edited December 16, 2019 by Andele3025