Nekros needs a rework

[Andele3025]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Aveflamewolf said:

I see no point in having a frame that can't do more then survive on the battlefield.

Agree with the idea (in this case the definition of loot being the non-combat resources), tho no frame is this last part, everyone has at least some form of hard cc, ally support or buffs/increases to damage dealt to enemies.

Edited December 12, 2019 by Andele3025

[(XBOX)KnightSlayer411]

On 2019-12-01 at 9:52 PM, TheSkeletonPolice said:

Nekros desperately needs a rework. Something to make him more useful than just a farmer. As he is his abilities aren't very effective for anything but farming resources. Id like something to make him feel more like a powerful necromancer with the idea being to make greater use of his summons. He just doesn't do much as it is. I'd like to be able to tell my summons what to shoot at or even use them as bombs to throw at enemies. Id like his abilities to synergize with his summons, the way a necromancer would.

Something like using an ability to mark enemies for the shadows to kill, or being able to sacrifice a shadow to buff yourself. Shadows also need to be stronger to be able to damage enemies.

 

He is a tank, a farmer and a CC....... I don't see the issue

[Teridax68]

On 2019-12-12 at 2:19 PM, Andele3025 said:

Ignoring all the lies, whine, cheap semantics and projecting

... where, exactly? Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

On 2019-12-12 at 2:19 PM, Andele3025 said:

If you want big range which is what a desecrate focused setup goes for, yes, you can hybrid going 40-90 on either stat (most likely 60% range 99% strength) which still leaves you with a slot cost where either equi, flow or HC need to be dropped to fit it. You wont drop vit or adapt or despoil since it would then be entirely dysfunctional so even on a hybrid setup you have to compromise.

That's not what is being asked of you, though, and my build manages to be tanky and have Desecrate capped for all intents and purposes. What build are you working from here? My own doesn't use Flow or Equilibrium, nor does it need to, so really, it looks like you're inventing "slot costs" here that don't actually have a meaningful impact on builds.

On 2019-12-12 at 2:19 PM, Andele3025 said:

No, you attempted to focus on what noone considers necromancy as necromancy. Noone thinks of invisibility as necromancy either yet it was seen as such during a short period of time. The classic definition and fantasy it goes over as a trope were explained already.

This is nice, except I've been in full agreement with Klaleara and keikogi on this, both of whom have argued with you on your own definition of necromancy. It's three against one, and the evidence itself is stacked against you... as was explained already.

On 2019-12-12 at 2:19 PM, Andele3025 said:

Except it hasnt. Youll find more rogueish archetypes having non-magical teleportation abilities than exploding corpses and even that is usually dubbed by its origin (some ninja ability) or made magic.

And rogues are relevant to the subject of discussion... how? Argue all you like, multiple games now have necromancers with corpse explosion abilities. No amount of red herrings will make you any less wrong on the matter so long as you continue insisting that necromancers somehow shouldn't be allowed to blow up corpses.

On 2019-12-12 at 2:19 PM, Andele3025 said:

You being unable to follow context isnt my issue. Your argument went non-loot part of nekros isnt known, i respond with the quote before about neither being stun saryn or night equinox being as well known as the nuke a room variants, you argue the opposite, i state the very quote you call a lie that flashy S#&$ will be what people remember, you start arguing about how nekros should be flashy. The only lies are on your part.

There's context, and then there's claiming the complete opposite of what happened. Your attempt falls into the latter, and no amount of "context" will save you from being called out on your dishonesty. The quotes have already been posted for everyone to see, on top of coming from this very same thread, so really, attempting to rewrite history with your own little narrative here serves no purpose.

On 2019-12-12 at 2:19 PM, Andele3025 said:

You have sub 200 hours on him, 0 knowledge of his ability intricacies and suggested to focus him on minions. So thats demonstrably not true.

I have demonstrated better knowledge of him than you, have significantly more kills and assists on him than you do, and proposed a version of him that far more agreed with than yours. Not only is my claim demonstrably true, it is in fact you who lack the proper knowledge of Nekros to discuss him with any amount of expertise, besides knowledge of how to leech with him, and who have been projecting your own insecurities throughout this thread.

On 2019-12-12 at 2:19 PM, Andele3025 said:

Except its demonstrably not,

Quick side note, but you've used the word "demonstrably" three times in this post alone, not to mention a whole lot of other times across this thread, and have still yet to use the word correctly. "Demonstrably" implies that your claim can be demonstrated, yet you have so far failed to demonstrate any of your claims, or even provide any evidence or means to demonstrate them. If you want to use the word and not have it come across as a meaningless buzzword you're repeating out of habit or as a means to fluff up your text, try to align it with evidence.

On 2019-12-12 at 2:19 PM, Andele3025 said:

he enables one of the most unique builds in warframe,

Which build exactly is "one of the most unique builds in Warframe", and why? Why is this unique build interesting?

On 2019-12-12 at 2:19 PM, Andele3025 said:

his fear is only disruptive to allies which should be fixed by baking in part of the bandaid augment now that it no longer provides any power to his 2,

This is false, since as already explained it is disruptive to Nekros as well (as anyone who actually plays Nekros knows, maximizing burst Slash damage is important, and frequently involves hitting weak spots). Moreover, you seem to be agreeing with me that the slow should be baseline, when previously you slagged my concept because of it.

On 2019-12-12 at 2:19 PM, Andele3025 said:

his corpse siphon is a corpse siphon

It's a loot dispenser; let's not kid ourselves.

On 2019-12-12 at 2:19 PM, Andele3025 said:

and his army keeps him alive by distracting enemies.

Yes, because clearly the highest thing an army of the undead can aspire to is providing mild distraction. You really are not making a solid case here.

On 2019-12-12 at 2:19 PM, Andele3025 said:

You do not understand (or even know) the kit, you refuse to use it and are suggesting a frame that isnt him. Go play nova if you want enemies exploding.

Except I clearly know him better than you do, and am suggesting a direction of change that plenty of people demonstrably agree with (and I can say "demonstrably" here because there are in fact post from other users advocating to make him more minion-based). You are, once again, hopelessly alone in your quest to promote a version of Nekros truly nobody wants. If you want to play a loot dispenser, go play Hydroid... while loot abilities last.

On 2019-12-12 at 2:19 PM, Andele3025 said:

No it doesnt, its a health loop or combat resource conversion depending on if you play him with despoil or not, loot can entirely be removed and it would still be a good core of his gameplay.

In other words, more loot popping up while your allies kill stuff. A gameplay loop implies some mechanic actively pushing the player to start, then perpetuate the loop, whereas even the health orb component doesn't do that, because players want to kill enemies anyway, and health orbs are only useful if the player is in combat. You are visibly grasping at straws here in trying to justify a non-mechanic.

On 2019-12-12 at 2:19 PM, Andele3025 said:

Except its a 1 handed animation that has 50 range and covers a weakspot of his kit, he is focused around himself thus a long range cc fits perfectly.

Except it doesn't cover the weakspot, because single-target CC is simply not good in the environments where Nekros is threatened, to say nothing of how its function as hard CC is made redundant by Terrify (itself a mediocre CC ability), and is disruptive to Nekros due to its ragdolling. It really isn't a good ability, and you have so far utterly failed to convince anyone on this thread of the contrary.

On 2019-12-12 at 2:19 PM, Andele3025 said:

For your allies.

And for Nekros as well. What's your reasoning behind this false distinction?

On 2019-12-12 at 2:19 PM, Andele3025 said:

Yes, because against the hordes of enemies that are right next to you you use your melee or shotguns (and terrify), you use his 1 for the thing his 1 does, either knock down or knock away a single enemy that is a threat or not practical to hit with melee.

... and which enemies would those be? Again, when is this ever going to be useful in an actual in-game situation? Give me even a single use case where Soul Punch would justify its existence.

On 2019-12-12 at 2:19 PM, Andele3025 said:

Also you dont have better stats, you have what 5% playtime, i got 40%.

... with a large multiple of your kills and assists. The fact that I managed this with a fraction of your playtime speaks volumes of your own... "expertise" with him, and comparisons aside, I do in fact have thousands of takedowns under my belt as him, so I do in fact get to say I have experience playing Nekros.

On 2019-12-12 at 2:19 PM, Andele3025 said:

Demonstrably isnt from titania lantern... or even the explosions of nova 4 (which is from a design point already some 5 levels of better warframe pacing from corpse explosions).

You are both repeating yourself and talking nonsense: Titania's Lantern, as said already in the quote you are responding to immediately below, has a delay and ragdoll effect that makes it too unwieldy to use properly, whereas Nova's 4 explosions do in fact work very well, and will often cause chain reactions. Enemy-based explosions work very well in Warframe, demonstrably so.

On 2019-12-12 at 2:19 PM, Andele3025 said:

Its on button hold. Be the delay casting the ability 4 times and enemies entering its range or getting a vauban to vacuum up enemies, kill 1-2 without killing every enemy and then pressing a button is not much of a practical difference unless you max range and the corpse explosion doesnt care for stats which is just afk turreting.

This similarly makes no sense, as you are comparing a single button press to multiple sequential actions, all of which combine to take a large multiple of the former's time. Also... how is exploding corpses "afk turreting"? Unlike Desecrate, you're going to have to be around to select corpses to explode, which is self-evidently a more participatory activity.

On 2019-12-12 at 2:19 PM, Andele3025 said:

yes, as is any flat damage non-true damage non-scaling ability even with the 3k damage of lantern

And? That's one of the reasons why I proposed to fix that with scaling damage on my corpse explosion suggestion. You are only lending support to my point here.

On 2019-12-12 at 2:19 PM, Andele3025 said:

That part got removed, its not a damage store same as nyx, nidus, garuda, etc.

From the wiki:

"Titania infuses an enemy with mesmerising light from up to 15 / 20 / 25 / 25 meters away, causing it to hurtle into the air with a swarm of razorflies. The Lantern source becomes invulnerable and unable to move or attack for 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 seconds. Enemies that come within 8 / 12 / 15 / 20 meters from the Lantern will be pacified and blindly follow the target, as long as they remain within range. Enemies within 2.5 meters of the Lantern will be dealt 200 / 250 / 300 / 350  Heat damage every second. Titania can have up to 4 Lanterns active at once."

Italics and underline mine. It took me a literal ten seconds to fact-check your claim in your stead, which makes me wonder why you failed to do so yourself, if this was even a genuine mistake.

On 2019-12-12 at 2:19 PM, Andele3025 said:

So you want a non-stat scaling weapon buff not corpse explosion.

... non-stat scaling? Where exactly did you get that impression? It also seems like you're interpreting my comparison far too literally out of pure spite here, as I am clearly referencing the max health-based damage on those mods, not their specific nature as weapon buffs or the resulting obvious lack of warframe stat scaling. Once again, I fail to see what direction you are giving your arguments here, as much of it is just a whole lot of thrashing about in the name of bad faith.

[Andele3025]

Ignoring all the whine projecting.

6 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Which build exactly is "one of the most unique builds in Warframe", and why? Why is this unique build interesting?

Ability to consistently benefit from Equilibrium and Health Conversion.

Quote

"Titania infuses an enemy with mesmerising light from up to 15 / 20 / 25 / 25 meters away, causing it to hurtle into the air with a swarm of razorflies. The Lantern source becomes invulnerable and unable to move or attack for 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 seconds. Enemies that come within 8 / 12 / 15 / 20 meters from the Lantern will be pacified and blindly follow the target, as long as they remain within range. Enemies within 2.5 meters of the Lantern will be dealt 200 / 250 / 300 / 350  Heat damage every second. Titania can have up to 4 Lanterns active at once."

Enemies directly affected by Titania’s Lantern will now have any damage they take dealt to them when the Ability ends (a la Mind Control).

 

Edited December 16, 2019 by Andele3025

[kapn655321]

On 2019-12-02 at 3:47 AM, (PS4)LoisGordils said:

HAHAHA!

His 1 is absolute garbage.

It's extremely handy for pushing things away while reloading, but I wouldn't be opposed to it getting some other functionality.

[NSRKIRTAR]

i think nekros is perfectly fine and he just need rework her 1st skill effects; add the effect to kill enemies with less than X% on hp and summon him as a extra shadow if you kill him as augment mod with a maximun of 2 extra shadows (is a good idea if you think how everyone revive from the operator be released)

[kwlingo]

On 2019-12-01 at 9:52 PM, TheSkeletonPolice said:

 

Something like using an ability to mark enemies for the shadows to kill, or being able to sacrifice a shadow to buff yourself. Shadows also need to be stronger to be able to damage enemies.

 

Actually thats a great idea. Im guessing your referring to the Wukong twin effect. Yes, this would make them usefull. All they need to do is give the Shadows the same AI Wukong twins have. Id be totally okay with this. The only thing is then the game will become too lazy and that's not what DE wants. All the shadows to kill everything and we stand in one spot. It would be nice to see them do something with them. Since toggling between one ability is becoming a change in how frame abilities can work now, Vauban, Ivara, Wisp, I can see them adding something to the kit

Edited December 16, 2019 by kwlingo

[Teridax68]

51 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Ignoring all the whine projecting.

I.e. all of the points you are incapable of answering...

51 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Ability to consistently benefit from Equilibrium and Health Conversion.

... but why is that unique or interesting?

51 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Enemies directly affected by Titania’s Lantern will now have any damage they take dealt to them when the Ability ends (a la Mind Control).

"When the ability ends" being the key factor here. The enemy is still invulnerable while affected, so if you're using this ability for a quick explosion, that's still not going to work out great.

[Andele3025]

20 minutes ago, kwlingo said:

 All they need to do is give the Shadows the same AI Wukong twins have. Id be totally okay with this. 

Specter AIs greatest boon is pathing and weapon priority without the side behaviour of enemy AI types, their actual focus fire/aggro mechanic is actually quite close (on average, ofc some enemies that have the drone ai or ancient walk around/focus on cc if in proximity wont do so), the crux of the issue of shadows always being complained will stick, being hardset by priority and ai type. Most likely a improvement on average, but a bandaid not a fix.

20 minutes ago, kwlingo said:

All the shadows to kill everything and we stand in one spot.

Even if you gave all shadows specter/wuclone/equi double like behaviour, it would only inherit their kill everything capability depending on level and enemy armor. Its around base level+level 120~125~ish iirc where enemy weapons scale up to be with blind rage "equivalent" to a modded melee in its damage mod vs unmodded melee and thats ignoring enemy damage types and status chance which means takes at least a hour and half into kuva survival for them to actually be on a true while for guns it wildly varies but generally hits hypothetical "equal" around base level+90/final sortie IF one were to only pick the behaviour trees coded with accuracy that would make stormtroopers look like sharpshooters.
TLDR: While respectableish (enough over their base duration and count), shadows would still be extremely inefficient as a afk method.

[Andele3025]

37 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I.e. all of the points you are incapable of answering

Answers ignored before doesnt mean that by repeating the question the question was left unanswered.

37 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

... but why is that unique or interesting?

Because its a game loop that doesnt exist in the rest of the game (was attempted kinda with inaros and has similar idea based ones in oberon and garuda to a degree, but not the same in actual execution and player priorities) and its interesting because it shifts ones priorities during the base game loop/alters how you play. The level of interesting is subjective, but the fact of a resource 1 per kill to drop to resource 1+2 to to abilities to kills to resource 1 rotation whose success depends on your ability to keep killing enemies (or if coop, the groups as everyone is rewarded to a degree) is one not present elsewhere. A game loop with such a difference in play that its the suggested default for nekros.

37 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

"When the ability ends" being the key factor here. The enemy is still invulnerable while affected, so if you're using this ability for a quick explosion, that's still not going to work out great.

I mean so would having to first kill a enemy and have them near, thats the point. Sorry for a typo before but the point of the invul note was that unlike before (because of nagging in pablos stream for it to get fixed) its no longer a true invul as it was till the patch since till then it actually didnt store the damage, saving the enemy. Shifting where the delay of a condition dependant ability can alleviate or even fix the issue, it doesnt change that it requires extra resources. In this case enemies would have to be hard taunted or pulled to corpses/enemies or store/pause corpses till a fitting moment. Or as i first said, made into a copy of either nova (who exists) or of the augments in which case its a weapon buff/weapon augment at the cost of part of the kit which would need to have extra in combat effects on top because win more (or lose less) effects are usually restricted to augments (and a few passives, the passives usually being lose less due to them being "always benefitial" even when one doesnt trigger them). The 1 weapon buffs are augments, saryn 3 propegates her spores, harrows entire loop is about weapon based mid-combat benefits (and the biggest complaint is tha thurible being a rare-ish case of a eletctively risk reward win more ability being that it has no effect if allies are already doing everything despite his kits support role), etc. Essentially stacking bandaids is bad if the issue itself can be avoided OR from the start built around. In which case a new frame is the solution as its a new game loop (DE didnt turn mag into hilda or or frost into gara despite such gameloop reshifts).

[Teridax68]

4 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Answers ignored before doesnt mean that by repeating the question the question was left unanswered.

But then which answers were ignored? I've answered you thoroughly so far, whereas your above posts have been the ones to either repeat points that were already answered, or not answer at all.

4 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Because its a game loop that doesnt exist in the rest of the game (was attempted kinda with inaros and has similar idea based ones in oberon and garuda to a degree, but not the same in actual execution and player priorities) and its interesting because it shifts ones priorities during the base game loop/alters how you play. The level of interesting is subjective, but the fact of a resource 1 per kill to drop to resource 1+2 to to abilities to kills to resource 1 rotation whose success depends on your ability to keep killing enemies (or if coop, the groups as everyone is rewarded to a degree) is one not present elsewhere. A game loop with such a difference in play that its the suggested default for nekros.

But there's no difference in play, is the problem: with or without those drops, Nekros is still encouraged to fight in the exact same way, it's just that the health orb + HC loop is how he gets extra tankiness during combat. By contrast, the likes of Inaros, Garuda, Harrow, etc. are all encouraged to combo certain specific effects in sequence, which creates an entirely different loop from simple gunplay.

4 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

I mean so would having to first kill a enemy and have them near, thats the point. Sorry for a typo before but the point of the invul note was that unlike before (because of nagging in pablos stream for it to get fixed) its no longer a true invul as it was till the patch since till then it actually didnt store the damage, saving the enemy. Shifting where the delay of a condition dependant ability can alleviate or even fix the issue, it doesnt change that it requires extra resources. In this case enemies would have to be hard taunted or pulled to corpses/enemies or store/pause corpses till a fitting moment. Or as i first said, made into a copy of either nova (who exists) or of the augments in which case its a weapon buff/weapon augment at the cost of part of the kit which would need to have extra in combat effects on top because win more (or lose less) effects are usually restricted to augments (and a few passives, the passives usually being lose less due to them being "always benefitial" even when one doesnt trigger them). The 1 weapon buffs are augments, saryn 3 propegates her spores, harrows entire loop is about weapon based mid-combat benefits (and the biggest complaint is tha thurible being a rare-ish case of a eletctively risk reward win more ability being that it has no effect if allies are already doing everything despite his kits support role), etc. Essentially stacking bandaids is bad if the issue itself can be avoided OR from the start built around. In which case a new frame is the solution as its a new game loop (DE didnt turn mag into hilda or or frost into gara despite such gameloop reshifts).

That makes more sense, but I still disagree, again because we already have mods and effects that prove that enemies do go near corpses, and that making enemies explode on death works, so corpse explosions would in fact work as a mechanic in Warframe. The fact that explode-on-death exists on two separate weapons and Nova, yet feel different, I think also proves that such a mechanic need not be associated with just one frame or weapon, particularly as I'm suggesting to make the corpse explosion targeted, e.g. by making corpses and body parts explode in an area, instead of projecting an aura (and, because of how enemies approach the player, that would still work). With scaling damage, it wouldn't even have to be an augment, and I'd rather the health orb shower be the augment if one wants to play into that aspect: really, the disagreement here I think stems more from the ordering of certain effects, i.e. which version of my proposed ability should be baseline and which one should be the augment (e.g. Terrify's slow vs. its armor shred, Desecrate's drops vs. corpse explosions), rather than the specifics of the effects being proposed.

[Andele3025]

23 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

But then which answers were ignored? I've answered you thoroughly so far, whereas your above posts have been the ones to either repeat points that were already answered, or not answer at all.

Which specific things do you want me to reply.

23 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

But there's no difference in play

There is tho, not just in base gameplay but also in what the loop allows and tempts you to do. The actual effects are "passive"/triggered from mods, but they alter how you treat both abilities and enemies.

23 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Nekros is still encouraged to fight in the exact same way, it's just that the health orb + HC loop is how he gets extra tankiness during combat.

And the extra EHP means he can go in on enemies for longer (thus easier to keep adaptation stakcks) without having to cc them as long as he can keep killing just as the extra energy means he is encouraged to use abilities more (either to keep moving faster through a mission enabling heavy use of 4 to reheal and keep SOS or relocate if pushing longer/higher levels) OR save the energy to use energy orb drops then as HP if no mook enemies are around. Is similar/initiative reverse design to harrow and garuda trying to balance their shield/energy and hp/energy balance respectively (harrow gaining softer tankyness from alive enemies till you put adaptation or him or delayed tankyness via lifesteal if you cc enemies with the enemy recharge garuda risking her own survival unless augmented to get kill power and using living enemies for the recharge) and only it interacts with a modding option instead of depending on the kit.

23 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

By contrast, the likes of Inaros, Garuda, Harrow, etc. are all encouraged to combo certain specific effects in sequence

Its different in that they dont have ramp time, not in the fact that they all still in the end use weapons to trigger their goals (or garuda ball if you enemies are behind walls or too heavy after charging up but thats because %+free scaling as long as she has energy siphon/energy regen source). And unlike the design side, in terms of gameplay from the examples inaros is actually the closest because of his synergy with high base+decent attack speed bonus on weapons much like slash/gore effects for nekros with the rest of his skills being also individually functional (meanwhile harrow 2 wouldnt work without his 1 almost at all while his 3 fuels the rest of it, tho at least not via forced synergy, just resource dependency).

23 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

That makes more sense, but I still disagree, again because we already have mods and effects that prove that enemies do go near corpses, and that making enemies explode on death works, so corpse explosions would in fact work as a mechanic in Warframe.

And as i said, if you base a kit around it, you probably could patchwork it to keep up the pace of warframe even to the point of it being that new frames core game loop. Probably with just 2 abilities if you load enough effects into them (hell we kinda do have that ability version of it on vauban 1 augment+vortex right now as the closest functional self contained version), however when one says corpse explosion and stats a aoe target (tho it would most likely be a pbaoe if not aura or weapon buff) of corpses, i wont assume the weapon buff which triggers on kill as the version instead of the written text.

51 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

With scaling damage, it wouldn't even have to be an augment, and I'd rather the health orb shower be the augment if one wants to play into that aspect: really, the disagreement here I think stems more from the ordering of certain effects, i.e. which version of my proposed ability should be baseline and which one should be the augment (e.g. Terrify's slow vs. its armor shred, Desecrate's drops vs. corpse explosions), rather than the specifics of the effects being proposed.

I still oppose the idea of corpse explosion/another win more effect stacked on nekros in addition to his passive and to a degree his 4 and since its a modern gaming addition to necromancy, but we are talking technocyte puppets so hells sake if it were turned into a channeled weapon buff some BS about technoctye eating up shot enemies making their death somehow trigger some infested-hive like explosion effect or whatever could be mashed in against the meta necromancy theme and still fit the frame lore itself. That is unless as you (or whoever it was some 2 pages ago) suggested desecrate becomes his passive (something like guaranteed hp orbs+double roll on energy and ammo) tho i severely doubt DE would ever do that because it would be 5 abilities worth of power then.

If the corpse blowup idea is comming from the angle of trying to "fix" the "nekros has no scaling damage" gap (as IMO its true from necro idea side but not sure from kit side), i still hold the stance that his 1 should patch that up because it already has damage on it and in all other terms serves to patch up the holes of the rest of his game loop. Or maybe 4 with some different form of scaling even if id rather have his 4 more customizable from a screen to fit multiple gameplay preferences instead of depending on whats preset from DE on who gets into the shadows and what behaviour tree is used. And noone of it addresses the one big flaw nekros actually has in that with life strikes change to heavy attack from lifesteal on all melee at a cost for energy, he has a power gap during ramp time (which used to be balanced/fit perfectly by having a "kill enough enemies before initial energy runs out/desecrate loop kicks in" incentive, but now no longer exists).

[Teridax68]

8 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Which specific things do you want me to reply.

Based on just the previous reply:

• Your build, what it is and what makes the "slot cost" for Shield of Shadows such a hindrance. Here is my build, for reference, plus Arcane Pulse and Arcane Energize, and as you can see it maxes out both tankiness and Desecrate range, with even a Primed Continuity thrown in for better Shadow uptime.
• The definition of necromancy, and the fact that you are clearly outnumbered on what is and isn't considered necromantic within the context of this discussion.
• Why you chose to claim we'd written the exact opposite opinions on kit flashiness relative to reality.
• Your dismissal of my verifiable credentials on Nekros.
• Why you believe Terrify only hampers Nekros's allies, given arguments to the contrary.
• Why you believe Soul Punch is a good ability, given arguments to the contrary.

8 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

There is tho, not just in base gameplay but also in what the loop allows and tempts you to do. The actual effects are "passive"/triggered from mods, but they alter how you treat both abilities and enemies.

What difference does the mechanic bring relative to regular shooting and looting, in that case?

8 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

And the extra EHP means he can go in on enemies for longer (thus easier to keep adaptation stakcks) without having to cc them as long as he can keep killing just as the extra energy means he is encouraged to use abilities more (either to keep moving faster through a mission enabling heavy use of 4 to reheal and keep SOS or relocate if pushing longer/higher levels) OR save the energy to use energy orb drops then as HP if no mook enemies are around. Is similar/initiative reverse design to harrow and garuda trying to balance their shield/energy and hp/energy balance respectively (harrow gaining softer tankyness from alive enemies till you put adaptation or him or delayed tankyness via lifesteal if you cc enemies with the enemy recharge garuda risking her own survival unless augmented to get kill power and using living enemies for the recharge) and only it interacts with a modding option instead of depending on the kit.

"Extra EHP" could be obtained from literally any durability effect, though, so it does not in any way make a case for uniqueness. By contrast, Harrow and Garuda's own durability effects aren't simply "extra EHP", they're situational durability boosts with gameplay and tradeoffs attached.

8 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Its different in that they dont have ramp time, not in the fact that they all still in the end use weapons to trigger their goals (or garuda ball if you enemies are behind walls or too heavy after charging up but thats because %+free scaling as long as she has energy siphon/energy regen source). And unlike the design side, in terms of gameplay from the examples inaros is actually the closest because of his synergy with high base+decent attack speed bonus on weapons much like slash/gore effects for nekros with the rest of his skills being also individually functional (meanwhile harrow 2 wouldnt work without his 1 almost at all while his 3 fuels the rest of it, tho at least not via forced synergy, just resource dependency).

Just because they all incorporate weapons does not mean they all play the same, though, as they have to actively use their abilities as part of their gameplay loop, and often have to do specific things for better returns, such as hitting enemies with headshots as Harrow or executing low-health enemies as Garuda. By contrast, Nekros just turns on his aura and plays normally.

8 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

And as i said, if you base a kit around it, you probably could patchwork it to keep up the pace of warframe even to the point of it being that new frames core game loop. Probably with just 2 abilities if you load enough effects into them (hell we kinda do have that ability version of it on vauban 1 augment+vortex right now as the closest functional self contained version), however when one says corpse explosion and stats a aoe target (tho it would most likely be a pbaoe if not aura or weapon buff) of corpses, i wont assume the weapon buff which triggers on kill as the version instead of the written text.

I don't quite understand this, as the corpse explosion effect as I've framed it would simply be a targeted ability that would explode corpses in an area, a mechanic that has already been explained to be functional in Warframe. Why would this require an entire kit around it to work, and why would it need to be implemented as an aura or weapon buff?

8 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

I still oppose the idea of corpse explosion/another win more effect stacked on nekros in addition to his passive and to a degree his 4 and since its a modern gaming addition to necromancy, but we are talking technocyte puppets so hells sake if it were turned into a channeled weapon buff some BS about technoctye eating up shot enemies making their death somehow trigger some infested-hive like explosion effect or whatever could be mashed in against the meta necromancy theme and still fit the frame lore itself. That is unless as you (or whoever it was some 2 pages ago) suggested desecrate becomes his passive (something like guaranteed hp orbs+double roll on energy and ammo) tho i severely doubt DE would ever do that because it would be 5 abilities worth of power then.

On the subject of win-more effects, though, isn't that just normal Desecrate? More broadly, any effect that requires the player to generate a corpse is likely going to qualify as a win-more effect anyway by that same logic, except at the very least, with an active corpse explosion ability it could encourage some more interesting strategies, like specifically focusing a higher-health target for a harder-hitting explosion, or using AoE against weaker enemies to create compound damage.

8 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

If the corpse blowup idea is comming from the angle of trying to "fix" the "nekros has no scaling damage" gap (as IMO its true from necro idea side but not sure from kit side), i still hold the stance that his 1 should patch that up because it already has damage on it and in all other terms serves to patch up the holes of the rest of his game loop. Or maybe 4 with some different form of scaling even if id rather have his 4 more customizable from a screen to fit multiple gameplay preferences instead of depending on whats preset from DE on who gets into the shadows and what behaviour tree is used. And noone of it addresses the one big flaw nekros actually has in that with life strikes change to heavy attack from lifesteal on all melee at a cost for energy, he has a power gap during ramp time (which used to be balanced/fit perfectly by having a "kill enough enemies before initial energy runs out/desecrate loop kicks in" incentive, but now no longer exists).

I'm not sure Soul Punch really can qualify as a damage source, as its damage is notoriously too weak to have an effect, and it's saddled to a CC effect that is itself not well-appreciated. I do think his 4 should offer better scaling, but I don't think that needs to be Nekros's only damage source either, so long as his killing power stems from enemy deaths throughout. I also did suggest that Shadows would generate automatically and give Nekros bonus health as his new passive in my version, however, so while he'd still need to ramp up, he'd still have quicker access to durability, in addition to what should be a better panic button. 

[Klaleara]

This thread is still going on?

Just wish they would come out with a Nekros variant, maybe a female, and make her not a farming frame.  And actually useful in high end content.  Then everyone who likes Nekros would be happy!

Edited December 17, 2019 by Klaleara

[keikogi]

9 minutes ago, Klaleara said:

This thread is still going on?

Just wish they would come out with a Nekros variant, maybe a female, and make her not a farming frame.  And actually useful in high end content.  Then everyone who likes Nekros would be happy!

Jou can't make everyone happy if there was another necromancer people would complain his skills are what nekros should have been. 

[Klaleara]

Just now, keikogi said:

Jou can't make everyone happy if there was another necromancer people would complain his skills are what nekros should have been. 

I mean, they aren't wrong.  But too many people want his current crappy kit.  Or at least 1 very, very, adamant person, and a couple outliers.  Not sure which.

[(XBOX)KnightSlayer411]

4 hours ago, Klaleara said:

This thread is still going on?

Just wish they would come out with a Nekros variant, maybe a female, and make her not a farming frame.  And actually useful in high end content.  Then everyone who likes Nekros would be happy!

Lol what?

[Andele3025]

8 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Based on just the previous reply:

• Your build, what it is and what makes the "slot cost" for Shield of Shadows such a hindrance. Here is my build, for reference, plus Arcane Pulse and Arcane Energize, and as you can see it maxes out both tankiness and Desecrate range, with even a Primed Continuity thrown in for better Shadow uptime.
• The definition of necromancy, and the fact that you are clearly outnumbered on what is and isn't considered necromantic within the context of this discussion.
• Why you chose to claim we'd written the exact opposite opinions on kit flashiness relative to reality.
• Your dismissal of my verifiable credentials on Nekros.
• Why you believe Terrify only hampers Nekros's allies, given arguments to the contrary.
• Why you believe Soul Punch is a good ability, given arguments to the contrary.

Vit, PFlow, HQ, Equilibrium with the rest depending on level and if coop, These days its usually Despoil and Adaptation on all 3 and then Blind Rage+SoS if its a boss sortie with shotgun (or the bugged raptor lazor multiticking through solid walls), Intensify+Creeping Terrify for 95% of the rest of the content (as ehp of HC+Vit+Adapt is more than enough with more free slots) or 2 range mods if someone LF nekros for farming stuff like Hexenon. Exilus depends on build ofc tho i still stick to handspring for SoS because SoS has bugs where blast procs on allies and some knockdowns still knock you down/arent sent over to the shadows and being stuck in knockdown is often more damage taken than the extra 15% strength gives to SoS unless its a very lucky grineer case or one gets the OV hyena spawn drones while arcanes tend to be energize, guardian, strike or pulse and was/am testing the water with grace and avenger.

Im not outnumbered in whats defined as necromancy as a lot more both folk tales/lore and media (be it tabletop or video games) have the stuff that falls under the "middle ages definition" of it.

I did not. Argument went: "whats important in nekros kit">"what people find memorable" (with the point that just like a lot of frames, people focus on flashy stuff instead of the crux/enabler of the kit)>"argument over if his 4 should or shouldnt be his focus despite it thus far being just more bodies for enemies to shoot".

I dismissed your credentials because you are the one who started talk about credentials based on stats despite you having less time on him.

I dont, realistically it hampers noone if the group is coordinated, issue is warframe encourages even to pug over solo with more spawns and/or better mission time where Terrify does annoy allies unless you sac a mod slot which no longer provides any benefits to the nekros player (or in the most generous version, it doesnt provide benefits in cases where you want to cast terrify instead of a slow or cc, in almost every case being single target, in which case one has non-frame based alternatives), which is why it should be fixed default. Same as e.g. titania 3 got fixed to actually absorb damage.

And last but not least, because the arguments ignore the things soul punch actually does. It covers all the gaps of his hit and kit-encouraged playstyle. Its long enough range that the vast majority of dismember weapons or terrify cant do the work of cc, its a 1h ability thus has full cast freedom and the type of cc is selectable by the player in a way thats not "hold to switch what the ability does", but as a natural consequence of its implementation and games physics.

8 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

What difference does the mechanic bring relative to regular shooting and looting, in that case?

While low on looting party because unless playing without a vacuum effect, on regular Sword N Gunplay its higher reward per kill (aka build itself giving you more from the meat of the game), a resource time pressure juggle from point of being hit to the next kill for your survivability, a resource (hp & energy) loop which encourages you to keep spending both as to not waste POTENTIAL resource gain. It essentially gives you benefits that another frame might get with a press and forget ability outright, but ties it to performance.

One can argue that in premade parties that extra initiative is gone, but thats almost all frames (exceptions like nidus and harrow, where the benefits of their resource management helps the party more in turn being hurt in PUGs depending on efficiency of the RNG) and the removal of raids sadly shows organized content wasnt on DEs highpoint of priorities.

8 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

"Extra EHP" could be obtained from literally any durability effect, though, so it does not in any way make a case for uniqueness. By contrast, Harrow and Garuda's own durability effects aren't simply "extra EHP", they're situational durability boosts with gameplay and tradeoffs attached.

It does because you keep working for it and thus far sadly only nekros, nezha and trin can do it, but on the later two its slot inefficient due to ironically too high base DR (and end invul and on press full heal respectively).

8 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Just because they all incorporate weapons does not mean they all play the same, though, as they have to actively use their abilities as part of their gameplay loop, and often have to do specific things for better returns, such as hitting enemies with headshots as Harrow or executing low-health enemies as Garuda. By contrast, Nekros just turns on his aura and plays normally.

Headshots too can be defined as "play normally", they are rewarded on harrow much like how going up close and cutting enemies is on Nekros. And on garuda you dont actually want the execute because DR works on her 1 and it doesnt give the same benefit as the execute threshold so its execute only comes into play when the 4+weapon or blood ball didnt kill off a heavy but thats digressing.
Point is that all of them are rewarded in engaging with the main gameloop or at least some segment of it more.

8 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I don't quite understand this, as the corpse explosion effect as I've framed it would simply be a targeted ability that would explode corpses in an area, a mechanic that has already been explained to be functional in Warframe.

Except it hasnt, the closest on its own being the titania example i noted prior. Not just because targeted aoes are iffy enough due to warframes area detection (as any hydroid player will likely note/its part of his skill curve for his 1 to not end up barraging a wall for 1/3rd of his shots in a lot of maps). But also because the natural effects due to the pace of warframe would then ask for some sort of pull/group mechanic. Or if one wants to be degenerate from the design point, to have high explosion radius with wall ignore in which case it wouldnt/shouldnt be allowed to propegate (as saryn demonstrates).

8 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Why would this require an entire kit around it to work, and why would it need to be implemented as an aura or weapon buff?

Because if you want it as a targetted aoe you would need to make it worth the cast unless it has a effect ontop and even then its would remain a win more ability.

Thus why for good design it would be a aura or weapon buff that also have a secondary effect. When it comes to on kill augments its a choice to risk the power of a mod slot for potentially more kills/for win more effects. AND why i noted vauban 1 aug+vortex combo of something as close to a example of actual implementation without overloaded effects ontop of what it would/should be and even he has issues with his 1 targetting/game recgonizing its up to store damage.

8 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

On the subject of win-more effects, though, isn't that just normal Desecrate? More broadly, any effect that requires the player to generate a corpse is likely going to qualify as a win-more effect anyway by that same logic, except at the very least, with an active corpse explosion ability it could encourage some more interesting strategies, like specifically focusing a higher-health target for a harder-hitting explosion, or using AoE against weaker enemies to create compound damage.

Very technically, actually yes it is. And while the following point is semantics more/subjective instead of objective, generally in both games and orther cases where the term may apply, immediate resource benefit ones arent called such (despite technically fitting the definition) since there is no RNG on it being actually useful if you get the win more effect (e.g. a full heal on kill vs damage buff on kill in a pvp arena game). Corpse explosion effect in turn (from sobek and vauban at least since nova and JK aug have too low damage and range respectively even if focused on it to keep working) could doe something for the next kill. Its why games that tend to let corpse explosion effects be valid builds have ways to summon corpses outright without killing enemies first.

8 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I'm not sure Soul Punch really can qualify as a damage source, as its damage is notoriously too weak to have an effect

Which is why im suggesting to change its damage being weak (to a degree, imo it really shouldnt instakill past level 20ish mooks).

8 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

and it's saddled to a CC effect that is itself not well-appreciated.

Because its terribly kubrow-trail documented on how it works. I suggested the tips text for it to be fixed from "use on priority targets" to (and to TLDR it) "sharp angle from you to enemy to nearby surface = yeet, running towards enemy at same elevation or slightly below without a wall right behind the enemy = knockdown" back when the google docs suggestion form for tips was active. I dont mind if DE makes the soul/pruple puff more accurate in how it gets sent out from the enemy ontop to reduce the fiddlyness/make a comfy skill floor for it, but the explanation for its mechanics should damn be in game.

8 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I also did suggest that Shadows would generate automatically

Which reduces control one has over the shadows types and makes the ability that could potentially support multiple builds work as enemy shaped suicide charges that kill their equivalents in 3-6 melee hits or seconds depending on what point of the enemy ehp vs enemy damage curve the mission is.

8 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

and give Nekros bonus health as his new passive in my version, however, so while he'd still need to ramp up, he'd still have quicker access to durability, in addition to what should be a better panic button. 

And extra hp is ok, as is a lifesteal at the cost of hp or whatever else, just not as a forced synergy through the shadows. Especially not if some augments truly become mandatory to keep the gameloop he has, without it being a build choice. Hell one could go 1 up with the concept and entirely base nekros on a x resource (e.g. technocyte shields or just casting from hp) instead and then skip the forced synergy while keeping most of your suggestions. But at that point the better option for a fitting kit is to make a new frame instead.

Nekros doesnt need changes like nezha did where a core game loop was mostly mashed together like kinda simila puzzle parts struck to be stuck together with a hammer where pablo saw the parts that would still fit and actually made them good fits, what nekros needs is polish from the scraps of time where Soul Punch, Terrify, Desecrate and Shadows remain their own things and only interact due to consequences, not by force/by splitting what should be a base part of the ability if done at all. Which is why im still unsure on what direction any ability changes that dont alter the game loop should go because sadly that requires testing (which is impossible without access to the engine/dev build) if it isnt just math (like armor strip vs damage multi) and why i focus more on giving him a mid combat passive (and partially because i severely doubt the suggestion of turning desecrate into his passive, just without the loot and immune to nullies would ever be done by DE so its a open spot to do something desecrate doesnt do much better with actual effect on how you build and play nekros) and the augment efficiency.

[Andele3025]

4 hours ago, Klaleara said:

 And actually useful in high end content.

You mean, what nekros can and is still useful at with either 2 free slots or a decent build depending on what you define as high?

4 hours ago, keikogi said:

Jou can't make everyone happy if there was another necromancer people would complain his skills are what nekros should have been. 

Didnt people complain when inaros was released? Legit complaints only stand and stick if the new frame did both his game loop and everything he can do better. As long as the main way to play the frame is different, its just another frame (e.g. from recent releases gauss vs volt or mag vs hilda).

[Klaleara]

4 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

You mean, what nekros can and is still useful at with either 2 free slots or a decent build depending on what you define as high?

Didnt people complain when inaros was released? Legit complaints only stand and stick if the new frame did both his game loop and everything he can do better. As long as the main way to play the frame is different, its just another frame (e.g. from recent releases gauss vs volt or mag vs hilda).

Welp, even with full armor, and using SOTD, Nekros cannot be a boarder in high level Railjack missions.  He drops like a brick in a heartbeat.  That is even if you manage to kill enough things to fuel SOTD.  That or spam creeping terrify.  Both of which are pretty crap when you could just Gara, your survivability is a lot higher, and you can glass a whole ship.  

Nekros just doesn't provide anything in high level missions.  Can't even say Orbs are worth, as energy isn't much of an issue, and everyone can easily self-heal.

[Andele3025]

11 minutes ago, Klaleara said:

Welp, even with full armor, and using SOTD, Nekros cannot be a boarder in high level Railjack missions.  He drops like a brick in a heartbeat.  That is even if you manage to kill enough things to fuel SOTD.

Prime example of why i said his weakness during ramp time needs to be patched up.

Tho from tiny bit of experience with railjack and a lot of pals comments and from the rest of the net, the issue in this specific example isnt as much on nekros as it is on railjack being level 80+ content that lies about being "level 20" thus at its "level 80" its closer to level 460+ in terms of stats.

[Teridax68]

14 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Vit, PFlow, HQ, Equilibrium with the rest depending on level and if coop, These days its usually Despoil and Adaptation on all 3 and then Blind Rage+SoS if its a boss sortie with shotgun (or the bugged raptor lazor multiticking through solid walls), Intensify+Creeping Terrify for 95% of the rest of the content (as ehp of HC+Vit+Adapt is more than enough with more free slots) or 2 range mods if someone LF nekros for farming stuff like Hexenon. Exilus depends on build ofc tho i still stick to handspring for SoS because SoS has bugs where blast procs on allies and some knockdowns still knock you down/arent sent over to the shadows and being stuck in knockdown is often more damage taken than the extra 15% strength gives to SoS unless its a very lucky grineer case or one gets the OV hyena spawn drones while arcanes tend to be energize, guardian, strike or pulse and was/am testing the water with grace and avenger.

Out of curiosity, why pick Primed Flow? If you're using Arcane Energize and Pulse, what would be the contribution of PFlow or Equilibrium? My own experience has been that, even at 45% Efficiency and without my arcanes maxed out, the bonuses from Energize and Pulse were more than enough to keep me sustained, particularly as more range on Desecrate plus the tankiness meant I took little damage and could resupply consistently.

14 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Im not outnumbered in whats defined as necromancy as a lot more both folk tales/lore and media (be it tabletop or video games) have the stuff that falls under the "middle ages definition" of it.

Such as? Nobody here is really disagreeing over what the medieval definition of necromancy is, it's more that you've specifically said corpse explosion isn't and cannot possibly be within the purview of necromancy, which is both a minoritary opinion here and one disproven by a corpus of video games with necromantic corpse explosion abilities.

14 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

I did not. Argument went: "whats important in nekros kit">"what people find memorable" (with the point that just like a lot of frames, people focus on flashy stuff instead of the crux/enabler of the kit)>"argument over if his 4 should or shouldnt be his focus despite it thus far being just more bodies for enemies to shoot".

But that's not true either, as you were attempting to argue that Desecrate was the most memorable effect in Nekros's kit because it was the flashiest:

On 2019-12-05 at 11:08 AM, Andele3025 said:

Doesnt depend on its augment, but more importantly, he isn't known for much more for the same reason why e.g. saryns melee aoe stun setup or a night equinox arent what people think of when someone says saryn or equniox. It doesnt matter how powerful something is in terms of good gameloop that scales, its about the big flashy kinda unique thing.

Which I disagreed with:

On 2019-12-05 at 11:26 AM, Teridax68 said:

I don't quite agree, because Sleep Equinox is in fact a pretty well-known build on her, either almost or exactly on par with her radial Slash aura build. Moreover, this can't really apply to Nekros, because Desecrate isn't a particularly flashy ability, certainly not when compared to the ability to, say, summon an army of the dead. As such, it stands to reason that Nekros isn't known as the farm frame because his farm gimmick is the glitziest ability in his kit, but simply because it's by far the most useful in a kit that is otherwise mediocre at best.

Which you then tried to counter:

On 2019-12-05 at 11:56 AM, Andele3025 said:

Nor are saryns or equis abilities as visually flashy (unless you colour them obnoxious pink or yellow in which case even desecrate death poofs stand out). As far as theme goes, its literally draining the remaining blood/life out of corpses for you and your allies to heal from.

And then only a few posts later you wrote this:

On 2019-12-06 at 6:50 PM, Andele3025 said:

You think core ability needs to be flashy, i do not.

There is therefore a clear contradiction within your line of posting, as you first attempted to use flashiness as a reason to promote Desecrate, then abandoned the notion of flashiness entirely in favor of claiming that a kit didn't need to have anything flashy at all.

14 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

I dismissed your credentials because you are the one who started talk about credentials based on stats despite you having less time on him.

This is patently false, as you were the very first to bring up credentials at all:

On 2019-12-05 at 2:20 PM, Andele3025 said:

Thank you for proving you arent using nekros and its entirely your bias talking.

It is that particular unprompted attack that had me compare our respective credentials for factual purposes, which showed that I have a very large multiple of your kills and assists as Nekros, despite the difference in time. To this day, you have given no clear explanation as to why there is such a stark difference, even though typically extremely high time spent playing, or Affinity gained, combined with extremely low kills and assists tends to be a clear indicator of leeching.

14 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

I dont, realistically it hampers noone if the group is coordinated, issue is warframe encourages even to pug over solo with more spawns and/or better mission time where Terrify does annoy allies unless you sac a mod slot which no longer provides any benefits to the nekros player (or in the most generous version, it doesnt provide benefits in cases where you want to cast terrify instead of a slow or cc, in almost every case being single target, in which case one has non-frame based alternatives), which is why it should be fixed default. Same as e.g. titania 3 got fixed to actually absorb damage.

If one has to coordinate just to avoid being hampered by an ability, though, that does imply the ability inherently has some kind of functionality problem that causes it to backfire. I don't think the above really answers the question of why this affects allies and not the Nekros player, but at least we both seem to agree that making the slow baseline would benefit the ability.

14 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

And last but not least, because the arguments ignore the things soul punch actually does. It covers all the gaps of his hit and kit-encouraged playstyle. Its long enough range that the vast majority of dismember weapons or terrify cant do the work of cc, its a 1h ability thus has full cast freedom and the type of cc is selectable by the player in a way thats not "hold to switch what the ability does", but as a natural consequence of its implementation and games physics.

Sure, but as mentioned already, that CC isn't actually effective, precisely because it doesn't disable a sufficient number of enemies, and disables them in a manner that makes killing them harder. Nekros is rarely if ever going to be concerned with enemies at long range, if only because long-ranged combat isn't really a thing in Warframe, and even if the cast is one-handed, it takes way too much time to disable a sufficient number of enemies, especially relative to Terrify, which as said above isn't even that good either.

14 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

While low on looting party because unless playing without a vacuum effect, on regular Sword N Gunplay its higher reward per kill (aka build itself giving you more from the meat of the game), a resource time pressure juggle from point of being hit to the next kill for your survivability, a resource (hp & energy) loop which encourages you to keep spending both as to not waste POTENTIAL resource gain. It essentially gives you benefits that another frame might get with a press and forget ability outright, but ties it to performance.

One can argue that in premade parties that extra initiative is gone, but thats almost all frames (exceptions like nidus and harrow, where the benefits of their resource management helps the party more in turn being hurt in PUGs depending on efficiency of the RNG) and the removal of raids sadly shows organized content wasnt on DEs highpoint of priorities.

More loot for doing the same thing isn't a change in gameplay, though, particularly as players are incentivized to kill anyway when in combat. It is, in that respect, not very much different from Oberon's regen aura.

14 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

It does because you keep working for it and thus far sadly only nekros, nezha and trin can do it, but on the later two its slot inefficient due to ironically too high base DR (and end invul and on press full heal respectively).

But as per the above "working for it" is just playing normally. Nekros isn't using an active ability to unlock a new path of play, or even modifying his or his allies' gunplay, he's simply turning an aura on so that he and nearby allies get more loot and healing. By contrast, Nezha and Trinity's healing orbs come from active abilities that are cast on specific targets, which provides novel gameplay in and of itself.

14 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Headshots too can be defined as "play normally", they are rewarded on harrow much like how going up close and cutting enemies is on Nekros.

That's not quite true on either side, though: headshots don't fall under "normal" play, because while the player is encouraged to get headshots, that obviously doesn't happen all the time, and the extra effort, aim, etc. needed to score more headshots does involve modifying play from the standard. Meanwhile, while damage multipliers do factor in for burst Slash damage, that mostly resumes itself to choice of weapon, with headshots occasionally factoring in.

14 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

And on garuda you dont actually want the execute because DR works on her 1 and it doesnt give the same benefit as the execute threshold so its execute only comes into play when the 4+weapon or blood ball didnt kill off a heavy but thats digressing.

Garuda gains strictly more charge to her orb if she executes her target, and the ability ignores all damage reduction effects on the victim as well. She has no reason to hold off on executing a target.

14 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Point is that all of them are rewarded in engaging with the main gameloop or at least some segment of it more.

Engaging with the main game loop is not the same as doing nothing but the core game loop. Desecrate does not add to the core game loop because it is not an active that constantly feeds into it, nor does it encourage the player to do anything but fight normally, as its rewards are triggered by fighting, and its health orb drops reward fighting with healing from prior fighting. No part of it changes the player's moment-to-moment gameplay.

14 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Except it hasnt, the closest on its own being the titania example i noted prior. Not just because targeted aoes are iffy enough due to warframes area detection (as any hydroid player will likely note/its part of his skill curve for his 1 to not end up barraging a wall for 1/3rd of his shots in a lot of maps). But also because the natural effects due to the pace of warframe would then ask for some sort of pull/group mechanic. Or if one wants to be degenerate from the design point, to have high explosion radius with wall ignore in which case it wouldnt/shouldnt be allowed to propegate (as saryn demonstrates).

This is simply not true, as you yourself acknowledged that I listed those weapon mods, and even brought up Nova, with Lantern relating far less to the proposed mechanic than the aforementioned explosions. As such, I'm not sure why you would repeat something that's already been contradicted.

14 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Because if you want it as a targetted aoe you would need to make it worth the cast unless it has a effect ontop and even then its would remain a win more ability.

Why exactly would scaling AoE damage and a Viral proc not be worth casting? It is also not a "win more" effect to strategically use one death to induce others when there is a factor of choice of target and positioning, though conversely the mass bonus drops from enemy deaths are absolutely within "win more" territory, so I fail to see the point of such self-defeating criticism.

14 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Thus why for good design it would be a aura or weapon buff that also have a secondary effect.

I fail to see how that would change your own criticism of the mechanic as you've listed it.

14 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

When it comes to on kill augments its a choice to risk the power of a mod slot for potentially more kills/for win more effects. AND why i noted vauban 1 aug+vortex combo of something as close to a example of actual implementation without overloaded effects ontop of what it would/should be and even he has issues with his 1 targetting/game recgonizing its up to store damage.

On-kill augments don't really have the choice or gameplay you are listing here, though, as the Jat Kittag and Sobek ones are just good mods worth equipping. Additionally, though, the fact that Vauban's 1 augment exist (and works) itself supports my proposal. 

14 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Very technically, actually yes it is. And while the following point is semantics more/subjective instead of objective, generally in both games and orther cases where the term may apply, immediate resource benefit ones arent called such (despite technically fitting the definition) since there is no RNG on it being actually useful if you get the win more effect (e.g. a full heal on kill vs damage buff on kill in a pvp arena game). Corpse explosion effect in turn (from sobek and vauban at least since nova and JK aug have too low damage and range respectively even if focused on it to keep working) could doe something for the next kill. Its why games that tend to let corpse explosion effects be valid builds have ways to summon corpses outright without killing enemies first.

D2 doesn't need to summon corpses for a corpse explosion build to work, nor do Divinity 2 or Slay the Spire. D3 is the only game I can think of, and in that particular case Land of the Dead is used as a permanent steroid for many more skills that consume corpses for various effects. At the end of the day, though, this is also an admission on your part that Desecrate in its current state is a win-more effect, so I fail to see why the criticism would apply to my proposal, but not the version you are defending.

14 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Which is why im suggesting to change its damage being weak (to a degree, imo it really shouldnt instakill past level 20ish mooks).

But why does it need or deserve a damage increase? Do we really want Nekros spamming 1 to nuke people? The problem with Soul Punch is that it's a utility ability at heart, and not a very good one, so even if its damage can maybe kill some extremely low-level enemies, it's not really made to be useful or interesting as a nuke.

14 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Because its terribly kubrow-trail documented on how it works. I suggested the tips text for it to be fixed from "use on priority targets" to (and to TLDR it) "sharp angle from you to enemy to nearby surface = yeet, running towards enemy at same elevation or slightly below without a wall right behind the enemy = knockdown" back when the google docs suggestion form for tips was active. I dont mind if DE makes the soul/pruple puff more accurate in how it gets sent out from the enemy ontop to reduce the fiddlyness/make a comfy skill floor for it, but the explanation for its mechanics should damn be in game.

I don't think documentation is the issue here, as while the yeeting vs. knockdown is sort-of known, neither is well-liked, because CC that ragdolls enemies around is disliked across the whole of Warframe. This is, for example, one of the more common criticisms made of Titania when her CC is brought up, and hers affects more than one target.

14 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Which reduces control one has over the shadows types and makes the ability that could potentially support multiple builds work as enemy shaped suicide charges that kill their equivalents in 3-6 melee hits or seconds depending on what point of the enemy ehp vs enemy damage curve the mission is.

But what is the point of control here? The intent is absolutely for Shadows here to be expendable shock troops, if only because that'd make Nekros cycle through them quicker like a proper zombie army. I also did suggest a means of control by letting Nekros use the corpse explosion Desecrate on Shadows, which would let him make room for new ones as he'd desire.

14 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

And extra hp is ok, as is a lifesteal at the cost of hp or whatever else, just not as a forced synergy through the shadows.

Why not?

14 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Especially not if some augments truly become mandatory to keep the gameloop he has, without it being a build choice.

Which ones?

14 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Hell one could go 1 up with the concept and entirely base nekros on a x resource (e.g. technocyte shields or just casting from hp) instead and then skip the forced synergy while keeping most of your suggestions. But at that point the better option for a fitting kit is to make a new frame instead.

How exactly would that work?

14 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Nekros doesnt need changes like nezha did where a core game loop was mostly mashed together like kinda simila puzzle parts struck to be stuck together with a hammer where pablo saw the parts that would still fit and actually made them good fits, what nekros needs is polish from the scraps of time where Soul Punch, Terrify, Desecrate and Shadows remain their own things and only interact due to consequences, not by force/by splitting what should be a base part of the ability if done at all. Which is why im still unsure on what direction any ability changes that dont alter the game loop should go because sadly that requires testing (which is impossible without access to the engine/dev build) if it isnt just math (like armor strip vs damage multi) and why i focus more on giving him a mid combat passive (and partially because i severely doubt the suggestion of turning desecrate into his passive, just without the loot and immune to nullies would ever be done by DE so its a open spot to do something desecrate doesnt do much better with actual effect on how you build and play nekros) and the augment efficiency.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree here, because the way you described pre-rework Nezha I think also describes Nekros right now with perfect accuracy: Nekros's kit is disjointed and propped up by augments, as it otherwise falls apart, and even when he does make his abilities work, his playstyle is dull and fails to achieve what he's meant to, reducing him instead to a loot frame. He does have a theme, but it could be implemented much better, if what made him unique were brought to the forefront, even at the expense of the functional-but-boring components. I think Nekros deserves to be a frame that ramps up through enemy deaths and tries to constantly maintain an undead army while corraling enemies and blowing them up via nearby corpses (or his own minions). His playstyle should be much more active, and what he'd lack in the direct, immediate damage other frames can typically apply, he'd make up in crowd control and ramping power, while also having the option to mod for utility. What I'm proposing still plays into the main gameplay loop, but also adds to it via corpse explosions, and if you look at the original kit once again, I do think it's worth noting that I added quite a few tools to let Nekros manage his minions, even if it's not something as technical as a menu to adjust Shadow AI or the like, in which I don't see any real practical value.

[Andele3025]

9 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Out of curiosity, why pick Primed Flow?

Punch and Terrify casts and pre melee 2.9997 channeling. Didnt drop it since having 2-3 casts of 4 BR SoS means reliable shadows in case game ignores its own rules, 2-3 get wiped quickly due to priority and because of the sequential pull on recasting with full shadows meaning one to three of em can die mid cast if attacked.

9 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Such as? Nobody here is really disagreeing over what the medieval definition of necromancy is,

9 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

it's more that you've specifically said corpse explosion isn't and cannot possibly be within the purview of necromancy, which is both a minoritary opinion here and one disproven by a corpus of video games with necromantic corpse explosion abilities.

These two statements disagree with eachother. Point was and even someone noted, corpse explosion is a very modern addition and only within some games.

9 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

But that's not true either, as you were attempting to argue that Desecrate was the most memorable effect in Nekros's kit because it was the flashiest:

No, i stated in the second reply that it doesnt matter how good something is for the game loop (like desecrate), because people just remember the flashy bits (like shadow summoning which you noted for being memorable in your first reply).

9 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

It is that particular unprompted attack that had me compare our respective credentials for factual purposes, which showed that I have a very large multiple of your kills and assists as Nekros, despite the difference in time. To this day, you have given no clear explanation as to why there is such a stark difference, even though typically extremely high time spent playing, or Affinity gained, combined with extremely low kills and assists tends to be a clear indicator of leeching.

Well for one i did have 4k assists on nekros which idk what happened, i also leveled normal nekros with mostly soul punching infested around because i forgot to put mods on the melee yet it shows up as 0/0. I dont generally look at the stats screen so idk when that got reset. I do know that if you help yourself with SP and finish off with a weapon, the kill goes to the weapon. In this sepecific case, galatine prime which till TR got butchered was the weapon i used with him for 90%+ of the time and dont use on other frames. If you are so interested to compare "leeching", check and contrast total playtime and Kill/assist values.

9 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

If one has to coordinate just to avoid being hampered by an ability, though, that does imply the ability inherently has some kind of functionality problem that causes it to backfire

And i said the issue is in that since the augment no longer gives any power it should be baseline to avoid that or the power loss/condi duration increase returned to it.

9 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I don't think the above really answers the question of why this affects allies and not the Nekros player

Because you use melee and most of the slashy guns tend to stagger lock the enemy. You want to be up close/in 7-10m range of enemies for pickups and weapon range/pre dropoff so the issue is with the enemies allies wanted to shoot/kill. And yeah, baking CT in if condi duration increase doesnt return is just making the ability coop friendly/doesnt increase its main use power and if one just needs a single target slow options that are far cheaper and not a mod slot exist as i said some 4 times.

9 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Sure, but as mentioned already, that CC isn't actually effective, precisely because it doesn't disable a sufficient number of enemies, and disables them in a manner that makes killing them harder. Nekros is rarely if ever going to be concerned with enemies at long range, if only because long-ranged combat isn't really a thing in Warframe, and even if the cast is one-handed, it takes way too much time to disable a sufficient number of enemies, especially relative to Terrify, which as said above isn't even that good either.

Its effective enough for a cheap 1h long range effect, it covers the weakspots of his kit. If there is a group of enemies, you gap close and hit terrify, if 1-2 enemies among them are mega lethal, you SP em mid bullet jumps, if a sole enemy is flying off a void SP is faster and more effective than swapping to a gun when on melee, if on a gun it fills reload time.

9 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

More loot for doing the same thing isn't a change in gameplay, though, particularly as players are incentivized to kill anyway when in combat. It is, in that respect, not very much different from Oberon's regen aura.

9 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

But as per the above "working for it" is just playing normally. Nekros isn't using an active ability to unlock a new path of play, or even modifying his or his allies' gunplay, he's simply turning an aura on so that he and nearby allies get more loot and healing. By contrast, Nezha and Trinity's healing orbs come from active abilities that are cast on specific targets, which provides novel gameplay in and of itself.

Except he is, because you dont treat resources on him the same as on other frames (closer being garuda and harrow on gameplay effect instead of nezha and trin despite the latter 2 sharing orb generation with him).

9 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Garuda gains strictly more charge to her orb if she executes her target, and the ability ignores all damage reduction effects on the victim as well. She has no reason to hold off on executing a target.

She gains more in proportion to base use, she gains less than what she executes and when doing the room nuke garuda setup thats a strict downside while on the regular 4 focused setups 1-2 jumps and at best 1.5~2s of chargup tends to be enough even for extremely high level enemies due to it being % enemy hp scaled slash. Essentially the execute doesnt do anything unless the enemy is a unbroken head nox or the target didnt get caught in the 4 in the latter case. However thats digressing into the issue of how effective single target damage is.

9 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

This is simply not true, as you yourself acknowledged that I listed those weapon mods, and even brought up Nova, with Lantern relating far less to the proposed mechanic than the aforementioned explosions. As such, I'm not sure why you would repeat something that's already been contradicted.

Because you suggested a effect like lantern and referenced it multiple times till i started arguing over possible less pace disrupting implementations. Which still dont solve the issue of "you need to load something else onto them". Because a ability that is "intended for killing" that doesnt do work without you already killed a enemy is a win more effect that cant even be defended unless you make it degenerate for the game.

9 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

On-kill augments don't really have the choice or gameplay you are listing here, though, as the Jat Kittag and Sobek ones are just good mods worth equipping. Additionally, though, the fact that Vauban's 1 augment exist (and works) itself supports my proposal. 

They do, you sacrifice the power of a mod slot to potentially get more out of that mod slots power, you dont have it baked default into the kit. Thats why garudas ball has not just scaling and is on a gap closer shield skill, but can also be charged and is independent of any success other than ability cast. And why even the better range of the 2 weapon augs/acid shells is mostly used if a frame can group enemies.

9 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

D2 doesn't need to summon corpses for a corpse explosion build to work, nor do Divinity 2 or Slay the Spire. D3 is the only game I can think of, and in that particular case Land of the Dead is used as a permanent steroid for many more skills that consume corpses for various effects. At the end of the day, though, this is also an admission on your part that Desecrate in its current state is a win-more effect, so I fail to see why the criticism would apply to my proposal, but not the version you are defending.

D2 CE was a farm setup because it blew up the entire screen, Div 2 does have multiple corpse summons because how unbuffed summons work (and a 1 direct one in bloated corpse creature which can only boom into a corpse) and even lets you teleport carry corpses around. STS has a dot explosion on kill.
And again its about "use something when you win already to win at something else with varying degrees of success" vs "resource refund".

9 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

But why does it need or deserve a damage increase? Do we really want Nekros spamming 1 to nuke people?

Repeat casts arent exactly nuke any more than Oberon 1 and Garuda jump are.

9 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

The problem with Soul Punch is that it's a utility ability at heart, and not a very good one

Except it is because it does its job and why if its changed its letting the damage portion of it do something.

9 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I don't think documentation is the issue here

I do.

9 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

But what is the point of control here? The intent is absolutely for Shadows here to be expendable shock troops, if only because that'd make Nekros cycle through them quicker like a proper zombie army.

To allow people to make the shadows suit their playstyle and because not all enemies that can be brought back work as shock troops. And zombies are in most origins and fiction still relatively tough to kill.

9 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

his playstyle is dull and fails to achieve what he's meant to, reducing him instead to a loot frame. He does have a theme, but it could be implemented much better, if what made him unique were brought to the forefront, even at the expense of the functional-but-boring components. I think Nekros deserves to be a frame that ramps up through enemy deaths and tries to constantly maintain an undead army while corraling enemies and blowing them up via nearby corpses (or his own minions).

9 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

and what he'd lack in the direct, immediate damage other frames can typically apply, he'd make up in crowd control and ramping power, while also having the option to mod for utility. What I'm proposing still plays into the main gameplay loop, but also adds to it via corpse explosions, and if you look at the original kit once again, I do think it's worth noting that I added quite a few tools to let Nekros manage his minions,

9 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree here,

You yourself said it for this. Essentially describing a different frame there.

9 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

His playstyle should be much more active,

Which it is already as resource juggling games can be as interactive on player side raw ability use.

9 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

even if it's not something as technical as a menu to adjust Shadow AI or the like, in which I don't see any real practical value.

Imagine if octavia didnt have her mandachord. Or imagine how nyx could augment her gameplay if MC target actually had brains (and behaviour tree options as well) instead of the ability making the AI bug out harder than any pathing issues or taunt spam ever can.

[Teridax68]

32 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Punch and Terrify casts and pre melee 2.9997 channeling. Didnt drop it since having 2-3 casts of 4 BR SoS means reliable shadows in case game ignores its own rules, 2-3 get wiped quickly due to priority and because of the sequential pull on recasting with full shadows meaning one to three of em can die mid cast if attacked.

I still don't really see why that's necessary, given that there are so many ways of generating Energy that one is unlikely to ever run out with a full build, even with minimal Efficiency and Energy reserves. This isn't just for Nekros, either, Primed Flow I think has become a dated mod ever since the changes to Zenurik and shifting of Arcanes to Eidolons, the latter of which made access to Arcane Energize much easier.

32 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

These two statements disagree with eachother. Point was and even someone noted, corpse explosion is a very modern addition and only within some games.

They don't disagree at all, though, since by both your admission and mine, corpse explosions are a recent addition to the necromancer archetype. We thus do not disagree on the medieval definition, only on the modern interpretation, where you are in the clear minority.

32 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

No, i stated in the second reply that it doesnt matter how good something is for the game loop (like desecrate), because people just remember the flashy bits (like shadow summoning which you noted for being memorable in your first reply).

I am failing to see why you are trying to reinterpret a quote that was just posted once again.

32 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Well for one i did have 4k assists on nekros which idk what happened, i also leveled normal nekros with mostly soul punching infested around because i forgot to put mods on the melee yet it shows up as 0/0. I dont generally look at the stats screen so idk when that got reset. I do know that if you help yourself with SP and finish off with a weapon, the kill goes to the weapon. In this sepecific case, galatine prime which till TR got butchered was the weapon i used with him for 90%+ of the time and dont use on other frames. If you are so interested to compare "leeching", check and contrast total playtime and Kill/assist values.

I don't buy that either, because killing an enemy with a weapon will still register that kill to the warframe you're using in the stats, as you can verify by looking at my Trinity Prime stats. Also worth noting is that your kills and assists have not advanced meaningfully since the first time I brought them up: as I am typing this, your kills on Nekros Prime are at 624, whereas they were at 565 when I screenshot your stats nearly two weeks ago. Unless you are somehow cursed, I do not really see where this discrepancy comes from otherwise, nor do I believe comparisons of overall kills and assists are going to help when my stats clearly indicate I have spent the majority of my playtime as Trinity, the least lethal warframe in the game.

32 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

And i said the issue is in that since the augment no longer gives any power it should be baseline to avoid that or the power loss/condi duration increase returned to it.

Sure, glad we've ultimately agreed on my original proposal to make the slow baseline to Terrify. Adding to this, though, I did also propose an AI change to the fear CC so that it would make enemies clump together, and not simply run away at random.

32 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Because you use melee and most of the slashy guns tend to stagger lock the enemy. You want to be up close/in 7-10m range of enemies for pickups and weapon range/pre dropoff so the issue is with the enemies allies wanted to shoot/kill. And yeah, baking CT in if condi duration increase doesnt return is just making the ability coop friendly/doesnt increase its main use power and if one just needs a single target slow options that are far cheaper and not a mod slot exist as i said some 4 times.

The Tigris Prime tends to work fine for applying lots of Slash damage in one go, as does the Kohm and other Slash guns, plus Desecrate's radius extends way beyond 10m with a proper build, so I don't really think that's how it works. In the end, though, at least we seem to agree that baking in the slow would be a positive.

32 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Its effective enough for a cheap 1h long range effect, it covers the weakspots of his kit. If there is a group of enemies, you gap close and hit terrify, if 1-2 enemies among them are mega lethal, you SP em mid bullet jumps, if a sole enemy is flying off a void SP is faster and more effective than swapping to a gun when on melee, if on a gun it fills reload time.

This is purely an argument by repetition, as this point was already said in almost the exact same way, with the same key words, and was answered already. It's not "effective enough" even for its low cost and one-handed cast animation, fails to cover any "weakspots" in his kit, and is redundant next to Terrify, hence why the ability is unpopular.

32 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Except he is, because you dont treat resources on him the same as on other frames (closer being garuda and harrow on gameplay effect instead of nezha and trin despite the latter 2 sharing orb generation with him).

Why not?

32 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

She gains more in proportion to base use, she gains less than what she executes and when doing the room nuke garuda setup thats a strict downside while on the regular 4 focused setups 1-2 jumps and at best 1.5~2s of chargup tends to be enough even for extremely high level enemies due to it being % enemy hp scaled slash. Essentially the execute doesnt do anything unless the enemy is a unbroken head nox or the target didnt get caught in the 4 in the latter case. However thats digressing into the issue of how effective single target damage is.

This only makes sense on paper, as in practice it doesn't at all factor casting cost and animation, as well as opportunity cost, so you are still better off executing targets even if you could've technically spammed the ability three more times for twice the benefit or whatever. Single-target ability damage may not be the best thing around, but her execute nonetheless does have applications against high-level Grineer heavy units, and not just the Nox.

32 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Because you suggested a effect like lantern and referenced it multiple times till i started arguing over possible less pace disrupting implementations. Which still dont solve the issue of "you need to load something else onto them". Because a ability that is "intended for killing" that doesnt do work without you already killed a enemy is a win more effect that cant even be defended unless you make it degenerate for the game.

How is the effect like Lantern? This is also completely untrue, as you were both the first to bring up Lantern at all:

On 2019-12-10 at 5:37 PM, Andele3025 said:

Except that thats only (partially) true in defense and still doesnt work if you are using a shotgun (especially with punchthrough) or melee (because of cleave). Most of warframe operates on a area kill speed basis, thats why pure damage skills that are single target tend to not be of much value without a secondary benefit or extreme scaling. Not to mention that clumped explosions tend to require weapon input to be of value to how one plays/builds a frame (vauban 1 augment is good since he can clump enemies over a big range himself and scales off your weapons damage, titanias lantern poof... well i doubt that many people even remember that it deals damage on the end of the effect... and it too inherently attempts to pull enemies close to it with a low taunt... iirc it couldnt kill level 80 butchers/crewmen/chargers).

And also the first and only person to bring it up in direct comparison to my proposed mechanic:

On 2019-12-10 at 7:15 PM, Andele3025 said:

Again, corpse explosion not only doesnt gel with warframes pace and enemy density, but is a thing influenced by 1) gas buildup on corpses 2) bomb trapped corpses during the world wars which Blizzard made a necro thing (others such as divinity series, scarred lands, pathfinder, MTG picking it up along the way sometimes not even as a necromancy but another type of magic). You cant argue from theme if your point isnt tied to the theme AND isnt practical in a way that works within the genre, Titania lantern doesnt work as a damage ability already, what makes you think a version without the poor taunt would? Or do you want a Copy of Mirages 2 augment with around 8x efficiency due to raw difference in targetable drops+ area vs mob density?

So this is yet another problem entirely of your own invention. Your suggestions were all beside the point, because the problems they attempted to solve are similarly made-up, especially since you've already said not to have an issue with Desecrate's health orb drops despite being a "win-more" mechanic.

32 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

They do, you sacrifice the power of a mod slot to potentially get more out of that mod slots power, you dont have it baked default into the kit. Thats why garudas ball has not just scaling and is on a gap closer shield skill, but can also be charged and is independent of any success other than ability cast. And why even the better range of the 2 weapon augs/acid shells is mostly used if a frame can group enemies.

You literally just admitted Garuda's blood orb damage scales by default, so why should Desecrate's baseline damage be any different? What about the scaling damage on Oberon's Smite, or on Vauban's Flechette Orb and Photon Strike? Again, this is a wholly manufactured problem, one that is contradicted by many different concrete in-game examples, including the one you listed here.

32 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

D2 CE was a farm setup because it blew up the entire screen, Div 2 does have multiple corpse summons because how unbuffed summons work (and a 1 direct one in bloated corpse creature which can only boom into a corpse) and even lets you teleport carry corpses around. STS has a dot explosion on kill.

Okay, so out of the games you just listed, two don't have corpse summons at all, and the last one's corpse summons aren't mandatory as you previously stated. By your own implicit admission, your argument is therefore invalid, and corpse summons are not necessary for a corpse explosion ability to function.

32 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

And again its about "use something when you win already to win at something else with varying degrees of success" vs "resource refund".

Please explain the difference.

32 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Repeat casts arent exactly nuke any more than Oberon 1 and Garuda jump are.

Both of those abilities have effects that aren't spammable or are at least safe when spammed, namely the rad proc and the shield/orb. By contrast, it doesn't take much stretching of the imagination to imagine what Nekros would be incentivized to do if his ragdoll were also his main damage ability: personally, I'd rather not have enemies get constantly flung across my screen, just because spamming a disruptive CC ability is how Nekros would deal meaningful damage.

32 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Except it is because it does its job

How?

32 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

and why if its changed its letting the damage portion of it do something.

How?

32 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

I do.

That's nice, but people already tend to know how the ability can be used to fling people, and ragdolls are notoriously unpopular, as listed in the portion of the quote that you omitted. Feeling that something is true is different from the thing in question actually being true, and in this case your opinion visibly does not cohere with reality.

32 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

To allow people to make the shadows suit their playstyle and because not all enemies that can be brought back work as shock troops. And zombies are in most origins and fiction still relatively tough to kill.

Which origins and fiction? Zombies are used in so many works of fiction and to so many degrees of movement, expendability, etc., that this is an entirely moot point. Also... which different playstyles are we talking about? Which units are we talking about?

32 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

You yourself said it for this. Essentially describing a different frame there.

You yourself mentioned the ramping component, the CC, and the utility, and I'm still proposing a necromancer with the same core theme and mechanics. How exactly is what I'm proposing a different frame, given the Nekros we have now?

32 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Which it is already as resource juggling games can be as interactive on player side raw ability use.

This sentence makes no grammatical sense, but I'm guessing you mean that resource management can be an active playstyle... which isn't the case for Nekros, who passively generates resources in such a way that it doesn't at all change the way he or his allies fight.

32 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Imagine if octavia didnt have her mandachord.

I can imagine that very easily, as Octavia's Mandachord is an almost purely cosmetic gimmick with no real impact on her gameplay.

32 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Or imagine how nyx could augment her gameplay if MC target actually had brains (and behaviour tree options as well) instead of the ability making the AI bug out harder than any pathing issues or taunt spam ever can.

I personally think the single biggest improvement to MC would be to give the affected enemy 100% accuracy and remove all of its defensive maneuvers, so that it would do nothing except charge the enemy and deal maximum damage. How exactly would a behavior tree or more complex AI help things here?

[Andele3025]

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I still don't really see why that's necessary, given that there are so many ways of generating Energy that one is unlikely to ever run out with a full build, even with minimal Efficiency and Energy reserves. This isn't just for Nekros, either, Primed Flow I think has become a dated mod ever since the changes to Zenurik and shifting of Arcanes to Eidolons, the latter of which made access to Arcane Energize much easier.

Its not baseline "necessary" for starchart nor for most sortie mods. In a pure range farm setup with pals or joining LFG (which doesnt even need despoil) it wouldnt be there either. But pool cap vs ability to regen are still different and importantly influence if e.g. one can double terrify or as i said, reuse shadows quickly.

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I am failing to see why you are trying to reinterpret a quote that was just posted once again.

Its not reinterpreting, thats literally what it is on the 2nd page.

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I don't buy that either, because killing an enemy with a weapon will still register that kill to the warframe you're using in the stats, as you can verify by looking at my Trinity Prime stats. Also worth noting is that your kills and assists have not advanced meaningfully since the first time I brought them up: as I am typing this, your kills on Nekros Prime are at 624, whereas they were at 565 when I screenshot your stats nearly two weeks ago. Unless you are somehow cursed, I do not really see where this discrepancy comes from otherwise, nor do I believe comparisons of overall kills and assists are going to help when my stats clearly indicate I have spent the majority of my playtime as Trinity, the least lethal warframe in the game.

Tested it for ya, nothing except soul punch hits that ouright kill (no yeet-despawn) or a before a ally kills them counts for nekros kills/assists. SP then killing yourself, with a weapon, sp soul impact aoe ragdoll if its not a direct contact for damage, terrify, creeping terrify ontop in case augment somehow changed the detection and shadows; noone of em count (at least on my screen) for kills or asists.

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Sure, glad we've ultimately agreed on my original proposal to make the slow baseline to Terrify

The disagreement was in removing the armor strip from the base ability, can even check the first page for this.

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

This is purely an argument by repetition, as this point was already said in almost the exact same way, with the same key words, and was answered already. It's not "effective enough" even for its low cost and one-handed cast animation, fails to cover any "weakspots" in his kit, and is redundant next to Terrify, hence why the ability is unpopular.

Because you are repeating that you dont like SP, not actually countering the point of what it does for his kit. People complain because it deals no damage at any level where people care about abilities doing anything and because the cc is most likely annoying if you dont know how it works/why it "sometimes """randomly""" sends enemies to space vs knocks em down".

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Why not?

Because you are using abilities to convert resources into other resources into ability casts with both nezha and trin having parts of the kit invalidate it to a certain degree. Certainly on nezha at least you dont mind recasting hoop from time to time (or even on allies with ward) no matter your armor and as long as strength is even vaguely decent (aka didnt dump it to 10%) because it has both a chargup period from damage and invul on break. Essentially whats nekros main thing is a optional sprinkle on top that is just barely worth the investment on him because of the base power loaded into his kit.

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

This only makes sense on paper, as in practice it doesn't at all factor casting cost and animation, as well as opportunity cost,

At best reverse (that it sounds on paper wrong but in practice you notice) because of how both wall-ignore ball charge and regular garuda are played, the execute doesnt do anything unless the straggler has a incomming damage calculation change or maybe spawned after you already jumped a enemy... and you can just entirely skip parts of her kit because most work semi-idependently because there are no true forced synegies (pure 4 support, weapons platform with mirror aug, etc).

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

How is the effect like Lantern? This is also completely untrue, as you were both the first to bring up Lantern at all

Lantern was used as the comparison because of shared flaws, latnern having less of a issue even because you dont need a initial kill, just cast time.
Remember, till i brought up the augments and for it to work as a weapon buff, your point was that it would be a AOE targeted ability.

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

So this is yet another problem entirely of your own invention. Your suggestions were all beside the point, because the problems they attempted to solve are similarly made-up, especially since you've already said not to have an issue with Desecrate's health orb drops despite being a "win-more" mechanic.

If you ignore or cant see the point after god knows how many times, its pointless to even argue

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

You literally just admitted Garuda's blood orb damage scales by default, so why should Desecrate's baseline damage be any different? What about the scaling damage on Oberon's Smite, or on Vauban's Flechette Orb and Photon Strike? Again, this is a wholly manufactured problem, one that is contradicted by many different concrete in-game examples, including the one you listed here.

Because the point was you need to make the ability degenerate like the very D2 example you cited (because it blew up the entire screen and self propogated) to make the requirement of a corpse work OR staple on extra stuff which is what the ability will actually be used for then.

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Okay, so out of the games you just listed, two don't have corpse summons at all, and the last one's corpse summons aren't mandatory as you previously stated. By your own implicit admission, your argument is therefore invalid, and corpse summons are not necessary for a corpse explosion ability to function.

No because you ignored the rest of the point. And the Div 2 note doesnt work because its on the player to choose not to have a on demand corpse (technically in D2 too, but thats going into levels of fiddly noone wanted to go into because speccing for something else to do the work and just 1 point into ce for generic mobs after half the pack was dead was enough). Arguing that corpse generation without kills isnt important for a well designed corpse explosion setup is like the argument that you can go 40+m diving without gear, sure but its both bad and unhealthy.

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Please explain the difference.

Kill enemy:
1) Get rewarded for kill enemy with resources you can spend however you want
2) Get a chance to help you in killing more enemies which could help kill more enemies, something which modern gaming agreed on to ask for a way to pregen corpses for it to work as part of the core game loop.

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Both of those abilities have effects that aren't spammable or are at least safe when spammed, namely the rad proc and the shield/orb. By contrast, it doesn't take much stretching of the imagination to imagine what Nekros would be incentivized to do if his ragdoll were also his main damage ability: personally, I'd rather not have enemies get constantly flung across my screen, just because spamming a disruptive CC ability is how Nekros would deal meaningful damage.

And nekros has CC that is selected by players action and positioning. If you dont want SP to yeet enemies, stop positioning at a angle so that the floor or wall are right behind them (or just slide when casting it, even moas dont get chukked more than some 7~m at worst and their soul punch soul exist path is fiddly due to how their center mesh is set up; and thats at worst, most enemies get knocked down on their ass and maybe slide for 1-2m). Its not just a personal opinion (which to be fair, so is mine about not wanting maldesigned skills be held up as ok by being given degenerate stats and that nekros should have something to cover him during his ramping up period), but entirely a self made gameplay issue.

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

How?

Well the simplest would be to copy garudas 10% hp as damage effect even if it doesnt do much with a floor of of 500+strength% damage, better would be something like at most 4% enemy hp, but either true damage or able to be modded (or both, since revenant can do that) for instead of flat like oberon and garuda. Especially because its single target.

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

That's nice, but people already tend to know how the ability can be used to fling people, and ragdolls are notoriously unpopular, as listed in the portion of the quote that you omitted.

Then stop using it in the way that ragdolls the enemy across the room. Your own followup about feelings vs fact essentially applies to the very part it added on.

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Also... which different playstyles are we talking about? Which units are we talking about?

Defense with ancients, drones/techs, shield lancers, napalms and arctic eximi
CC with puke crawlers/infested carpets, arsons, rattels/the zap skii, scorpions and even noxes (stacking slow)
expendable army with bumrush ai (chargers, oxiums, boilers, butchers, flameblades, guardsmen, shockwave and fusion moas, etc)
Prefered enemy due to abilities (e.g. jugger+brood or masters+comms for summons past the 7 limit, only battalysts when fighting sentients, etc), possibly giving them arena ai to try and survive while sticking close, etc.

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

You yourself mentioned the ramping component, the CC, and the utility, and I'm still proposing a necromancer with the same core theme and mechanics.

Because you suggested changing him from resource control to shadow spam (or in a even worse case scenario, effects that only hook off shadow spam with shadows needing even more babysitting and leashing to points than they already do)

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

This sentence makes no grammatical sense

Here in very simple: your brain thinks about numbers, even if you dont realize it as long as you pay any attention, that infleunces optimization in gameplay, which is relevant for performance of the likes of nekros, harrow, garuda, etc, much less so for a nice big chunk of other frames which have their focus elsewhere.
Only point where there might be a argument that nekros doesnt fit in there/is "passive" about it is if going for farming setups (max range OV/jupiter/now railjack or whatever with hydro and/or khora and maybe a ivara or atlas) or if someone is actually leeching. The last case being a issue of that person. Or do you think its better to take up the flaw of harrow and nidus' designs that coop shouldnt have as good of a game loop as when doing it solo?
I mean i wouldnt mind if desecrate was "100% chance on corpses you created, 10% or less if you didnt kill the target", but thats because i dont mind solo play.

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I personally think the single biggest improvement to MC would be to give the affected enemy 100% accuracy and remove all of its defensive maneuvers, so that it would do nothing except charge the enemy and deal maximum damage. How exactly would a behavior tree or more complex AI help things here?

Again, gameplay options same as listed above. Not everyone wants MC to be a turret, but neither should players be prevented from making it into one (and accuracy of non-sniper MC targets isnt as terrible as their behaviour priorit, certainly worse than specter AI, but not what makes it a joke at least at the levels i fiddled with it for a bit).

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I can imagine that very easily, as Octavia's Mandachord is an almost purely cosmetic gimmick with no real impact on her gameplay.

And that line explains the 85% of the issue.