Nekros needs a rework

[Teridax68]

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

Its not baseline "necessary" for starchart nor for most sortie mods. In a pure range farm setup with pals or joining LFG (which doesnt even need despoil) it wouldnt be there either. But pool cap vs ability to regen are still different and importantly influence if e.g. one can double terrify or as i said, reuse shadows quickly.

But where do those situations appear? My point is that regen is so quick and plentiful that pool cap is pretty much irrelevant unless you're spamming the same ability at length, which Nekros doesn't need to do.

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

Its not reinterpreting, thats literally what it is on the 2nd page.

It's certainly not on the quote from said page I listed above.

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

Tested it for ya, nothing except soul punch hits that ouright kill (no yeet-despawn) or a before a ally kills them counts for nekros kills/assists. SP then killing yourself, with a weapon, sp soul impact aoe ragdoll if its not a direct contact for damage, terrify, creeping terrify ontop in case augment somehow changed the detection and shadows; noone of em count (at least on my screen) for kills or asists.

That's strange, because the bug is documented nowhere and doesn't seem to be affecting anyone else's stats, certainly not to your stated extent. 🤔

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

The disagreement was in removing the armor strip from the base ability, can even check the first page for this.

This is also false, as the disagreement stemmed from you calling the augment "useless":

On 2019-12-05 at 12:56 PM, Andele3025 said:

For allies only. As nekros you are already within short range of enemies to take advantage of weapons with gore chance and just technically your passive... but its mostly just gore chance being on melee and high falloff weapons. He doesnt depend on it at all, ESPECIALLY after slows got nerfed to not give condition duration. Its him not annoying allies which depends on the now borderline worthless mod.

It is only much later that you attempted to call my suggestion a nerf by claiming I had removed the armor strip entirely, when I had swapped it out with the slow in the augment.

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

Because you are repeating that you dont like SP, not actually countering the point of what it does for his kit. People complain because it deals no damage at any level where people care about abilities doing anything and because the cc is most likely annoying if you dont know how it works/why it "sometimes """randomly""" sends enemies to space vs knocks em down".

This is also untrue, as I gave numerous reasons for why SP doesn't work that don't boil down to personal dislike:

13 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Sure, but as mentioned already, that CC isn't actually effective, precisely because it doesn't disable a sufficient number of enemies, and disables them in a manner that makes killing them harder. Nekros is rarely if ever going to be concerned with enemies at long range, if only because long-ranged combat isn't really a thing in Warframe, and even if the cast is one-handed, it takes way too much time to disable a sufficient number of enemies, especially relative to Terrify, which as said above isn't even that good either.

And here:

13 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I don't think documentation is the issue here, as while the yeeting vs. knockdown is sort-of known, neither is well-liked, because CC that ragdolls enemies around is disliked across the whole of Warframe. This is, for example, one of the more common criticisms made of Titania when her CC is brought up, and hers affects more than one target.

I am also by far not the only one on this thread who has this opinion:

On 2019-12-16 at 8:23 AM, NSRKIRTAR said:

i think nekros is perfectly fine and he just need rework her 1st skill effects;

Or this one:

On 2019-12-10 at 10:04 PM, Klaleara said:

You will literally never convince me that soul punch is good.  Don't even waste your time on trying lol.

Also your rant on corpse explosion has confused the hell out of me.  Have you even used corpse explosion in another game?  D3 uses it, and its the fastest damn game I've played short of a bullet hell, far faster than Warframe. 

Or this one:

On 2019-12-10 at 7:42 PM, Deus-Machina said:

Heh yeah. Wasn't actually thinking of making more augments, just modifying the current one. But I'd agree that soul punch and shadow AI (or behavior) are the TWO biggest problems (not really problems, just areas that could be tuned) with Nekros

Or this one:

On 2019-12-03 at 3:02 AM, Rimril said:

I am aware of soul punches cc, I simply personally find targeted CC to be largely inconsequential when you are literally wading through seas of bodies 95% of the time.

Or this one:

On 2019-12-03 at 7:07 AM, Ekemeister said:

Yes. Nekros' 1/Soul Punch is derpy like most other 1's.

Or this one:

On 2019-12-02 at 8:47 AM, (PS4)LoisGordils said:

HAHAHA!

His 1 is absolute garbage.

So really, it's not just me.

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

Because you are using abilities to convert resources into other resources into ability casts with both nezha and trin having parts of the kit invalidate it to a certain degree. Certainly on nezha at least you dont mind recasting hoop from time to time (or even on allies with ward) no matter your armor and as long as strength is even vaguely decent (aka didnt dump it to 10%) because it has both a chargup period from damage and invul on break. Essentially whats nekros main thing is a optional sprinkle on top that is just barely worth the investment on him because of the base power loaded into his kit.

But you're not turning resources into other resources, that's just Equilibrium, which isn't necessary on Nekros either nor meaningfully alters his gameplay. He doesn't make novel use of resources, nor does his resource usage change the way he'd play relative to any other frame engaging in gunplay.

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

At best reverse (that it sounds on paper wrong but in practice you notice) because of how both wall-ignore ball charge and regular garuda are played, the execute doesnt do anything unless the straggler has a incomming damage calculation change or maybe spawned after you already jumped a enemy... and you can just entirely skip parts of her kit because most work semi-idependently because there are no true forced synegies (pure 4 support, weapons platform with mirror aug, etc).

How does the way Garuda plays invalidate what I've said, though? What is this incoming damage calculation change that prevents enemies from being executed properly?

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

Lantern was used as the comparison because of shared flaws, latnern having less of a issue even because you dont need a initial kill, just cast time.

... but they don't have the same flaws, though? Again, how are the abilities in any way similar?

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

Remember, till i brought up the augments and for it to work as a weapon buff, your point was that it would be a AOE targeted ability.

... yes, which does not make it even remotely approach Lantern in similarity. You are shifting the goalposts here, as you were clearly not telling the truth when telling me I pushed the Lantern comparison, and even here are the one insisting upon a comparison that does not work, as the modes of use are fundamentally different.

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

If you ignore or cant see the point after god knows how many times, its pointless to even argue

Yes, it is, because ultimately you have failed to make a convincing point here. You are expecting me to take you on your word when you make up excuses on the spot for why this ability that has many similar and successful counterparts in-game already apparently wouldn't work, all while insisting upon making false comparisons to abilities that have nothing to do with the proposed mechanic, and also lying to my face when telling me I was the one to make said comparisons. If you want to convince me, provide evidence: if the only way you hope for me to believe you is for me to trust you on blind faith, don't bother.

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

Because the point was you need to make the ability degenerate like the very D2 example you cited (because it blew up the entire screen and self propogated) to make the requirement of a corpse work OR staple on extra stuff which is what the ability will actually be used for then.

... why? Also, why is D2's gameplay degenerate when it's notably fun? Again, you are expecting me to take you on your word here, as your argument is completely unsubstantiated.

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

No because you ignored the rest of the point. And the Div 2 note doesnt work because its on the player to choose not to have a on demand corpse (technically in D2 too, but thats going into levels of fiddly noone wanted to go into because speccing for something else to do the work and just 1 point into ce for generic mobs after half the pack was dead was enough). Arguing that corpse generation without kills isnt important for a well designed corpse explosion setup is like the argument that you can go 40+m diving without gear, sure but its both bad and unhealthy.

... which part did I ignore? Also, my point wasn't that the player can't choose to summon corpses, but that it's simply patently unnecessary for those abilities to function well, as demonstrated by D2. Again, you are making a whole lot of unsupported claims here that I have no reason to believe.

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

Kill enemy:
1) Get rewarded for kill enemy with resources you can spend however you want
2) Get a chance to help you in killing more enemies which could help kill more enemies, something which modern gaming agreed on to ask for a way to pregen corpses for it to work as part of the core game loop.

But that doesn't explain any difference, though, as "spend however you want" is also something you listed above in your defense of Desecrate as something to help kill more enemies. Additionally, the second part is unsupported by your above arguments, so really, no part of the point you are trying to make here holds water.

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

And nekros has CC that is selected by players action and positioning. If you dont want SP to yeet enemies, stop positioning at a angle so that the floor or wall are right behind them (or just slide when casting it, even moas dont get chukked more than some 7~m at worst and their soul punch soul exist path is fiddly due to how their center mesh is set up; and thats at worst, most enemies get knocked down on their ass and maybe slide for 1-2m). Its not just a personal opinion (which to be fair, so is mine about not wanting maldesigned skills be held up as ok by being given degenerate stats and that nekros should have something to cover him during his ramping up period), but entirely a self made gameplay issue.

Even the regular cast ragdolls enemies around, so my point still stands regardless of how one is angling SP. It's not the action and positioning that matters here, it's the fact that SP's core function is enemy displacement, which is fundamentally disruptive in its current implementation. As per the many above quotes, I'm not the only one pointing this out.

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

Well the simplest would be to copy garudas 10% hp as damage effect even if it doesnt do much with a floor of of 500+strength% damage, better would be something like at most 4% enemy hp, but either true damage or able to be modded (or both, since revenant can do that) for instead of flat like oberon and garuda. Especially because its single target.

But what would that achieve?

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

Then stop using it in the way that ragdolls the enemy across the room. Your own followup about feelings vs fact essentially applies to the very part it added on.

But it ragdolls enemies even when used normally, the issue is not one of distance here. Again, this is a fact, so you don't get to parrot my criticism back at me here.

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

Defense with ancients, drones/techs, shield lancers, napalms and arctic eximi
CC with puke crawlers/infested carpets, arsons, rattels/the zap skii, scorpions and even noxes (stacking slow)
expendable army with bumrush ai (chargers, oxiums, boilers, butchers, flameblades, guardsmen, shockwave and fusion moas, etc)
Prefered enemy due to abilities (e.g. jugger+brood or masters+comms for summons past the 7 limit, only battalysts when fighting sentients, etc), possibly giving them arena ai to try and survive while sticking close, etc.

None of those units will be any good if they just hang back, though, so even then you'd still want them moving forward with Nekros and everyone else. There's a difference between having smarter AI and designing AI to play the game for oneself as one goes AFK.

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

Because you suggested changing him from resource control to shadow spam (or in a even worse case scenario, effects that only hook off shadow spam with shadows needing even more babysitting and leashing to points than they already do)

This makes no sense, though, because the only "resource control" aspect of Nekros's gameplay is some heavily mod-reliant niche aspect of Desecrate that doesn't even have any impact on gameplay, whereas my proposed "shadow spam" is just Nekros summoning Shadows, much like he does now but without the clunk. Really, your opposition here visibly comes from personal preference, rather than criticism anyone else can agree with.

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

Here in very simple: your brain thinks about numbers, even if you dont realize it as long as you pay any attention, that infleunces optimization in gameplay, which is relevant for performance of the likes of nekros, harrow, garuda, etc, much less so for a nice big chunk of other frames which have their focus elsewhere.
Only point where there might be a argument that nekros doesnt fit in there/is "passive" about it is if going for farming setups (max range OV/jupiter/now railjack or whatever with hydro and/or khora and maybe a ivara or atlas) or if someone is actually leeching. The last case being a issue of that person. Or do you think its better to take up the flaw of harrow and nidus' designs that coop shouldnt have as good of a game loop as when doing it solo?
I mean i wouldnt mind if desecrate was "100% chance on corpses you created, 10% or less if you didnt kill the target", but thats because i dont mind solo play.

I don't agree with this, because no amount of thinking about numbers is going to affect how one plays Nekros, unlike Garuda, where one has to estimate an opponent's health bar for the execute. Nekros's resource management playstyle is in fact passive, because farming setups are what he's picked for, and even if he tries to go for another build his "resource management" is still not going to have him actively manage some resource, unlike Gauss or Ember. I don't think he should be given some meter or the like, because that has its problems as well, I just think we need to drop the pretense of resource management altogether in the form of Desecrate, as I think Nekros's real resource is Shadows, not health orbs or the like.

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

Again, gameplay options same as listed above. Not everyone wants MC to be a turret, but neither should players be prevented from making it into one (and accuracy of non-sniper MC targets isnt as terrible as their behaviour priorit, certainly worse than specter AI, but not what makes it a joke at least at the levels i fiddled with it for a bit).

Okay, but which gameplay options are we talking about? What specific playstyles are we discussing here?

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

And that line explains the 85% of the issue.

How so?

[Andele3025]

23 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

But where do those situations appear? My point is that regen is so quick and plentiful that pool cap is pretty much irrelevant unless you're spamming the same ability at length, which Nekros doesn't need to do.

Often enough, even early in on chart missions like going 40 min+ on kuva survival.

23 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

This is also false, as the disagreement stemmed from you calling the augment "useless":

Because right now it is, baking it in default is to fixes a issue on the coop side exactly because its useless as a augment/doesnt give power nor usable utility for the player unless its a single enemy immune to fear (in which case Zenurik TB does the slow without costing a augment slot and zenurik was and still is, for the vast majorit of content, the best focus school and isnt subject to ability restrictions). Whe even on the first comment to it i said the slow nerf/removal of indirect condi dur from slows was dumb.

23 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

It is only much later that you attempted to call my suggestion a nerf by claiming I had removed the armor strip entirely

Because it is, augments shouldnt account for base frame balance but later scaling or changing some part of the game loop

23 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

This is also untrue, as I gave numerous reasons for why SP doesn't work that don't boil down to personal dislike

Except it are personal issues.

23 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

But you're not turning resources into other resources, that's just Equilibrium, which isn't necessary on Nekros either nor meaningfully alters his gameplay. He doesn't make novel use of resources, nor does his resource usage change the way he'd play relative to any other frame engaging in gunplay.

Energy to hp (and ammo) is the base one, Equi then further alters it. And it is unique because he is the one frame that can actually benefit from it consistantly.
As went over Nezha would be the other but he got a better iron skin in his kit.

23 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

How does the way Garuda plays invalidate what I've said, though? What is this incoming damage calculation change that prevents enemies from being executed properly?

Because you said "sounds good on paper, isnt in practice", when in practice its better than even what it sounds on paper while the execute is the part that sounds useful but isnt.
And you misread, incoming damage calc changes (like nox or jugger armor) which thus prevent ball combo from being as effective as they are on all enemies without such a effect (which is almost every enemy) is where the execute might actually be of use (assuming you dont turn them into a altar instead).

23 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

... yes, which does not make it even remotely approach Lantern in similarity. You are shifting the goalposts here, as you were clearly not telling the truth when telling me I pushed the Lantern comparison, and even here are the one insisting upon a comparison that does not work, as the modes of use are fundamentally different.

No, you just want to ignore that delay till ability can be used+even high base damage doesnt make a ability work for a core loop without the rest of the kit supporting it.

23 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Yes, it is, because ultimately you have failed to make a convincing point here. You are expecting me to take you on your word when you make up excuses on the spot for why this ability that has many similar and successful counterparts in-game already

Except it doesnt, you ignoring reality that even the closest multi ability combo (with vauban) is a multi ability combo that doesnt care for enemy to be a corpse and scales off incomming weapon damage.

23 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

o lying to my face when telling me I was the one to make said comparisons

Except it wasnt you, but me who said your version would have to be changed to a weapon buff version akin to the augments or at least aura to not actively hinder the game loop
And thats even without noting how you keep ignoring the point that such abilities need other effects to be abilities instead of in build trade offs.

23 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

If you want to convince me, provide evidence: if the only way you hope for me to believe you is for me to trust you on blind faith, don't bother.

You're the one working of blind ideas instead of precedent or even examples (do i have to remind you of adaptation and how long the shadows cast time is?).

23 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

... why? Also, why is D2's gameplay degenerate when it's notably fun? Again, you are expecting me to take you on your word here, as your argument is completely unsubstantiated.

Corpse Explosion builds (like a few other D2 builds) were degenerate, because they worked off disproportional power. CE specifically having been a 1 point pick no matter what since base packs let it self propegate (which in Warframe is turret gameplay) while full builds based on it had extra high aoe size ontop. Due to warframes lower enemy density but also faster pace the only way that could reasonably make it work is going as degenerate/doing the equivalent of equinox day 4 trigger stored its damage for the next 4 cast (as you keep blindly refusing other comments on it).

23 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

... which part did I ignore? Also, my point wasn't that the player can't choose to summon corpses, but that it's simply patently unnecessary for those abilities to function well, as demonstrated by D2. Again, you are making a whole lot of unsupported claims here that I have no reason to believe.

Except CE builds, despite being degenerate, didnt work in D2 because eventually the first corpse requirement was so high that either you did fiddly BS with making a corpse pre pack and pulling em around OR made a build around bone lance or nova. Its why both D3 and POE have corpse generators without killing, why Div OS2 has a cheap corpse gen and can generate more through other weak summons. To make the build actually stand on its own as a game loop without having to make it degenerate.

23 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

But that doesn't explain any difference, though

Yes it does. You ignoring the point doesnt make the point of tangible instant benefit vs potential combat benefit if the skill is OP enough or you have another ability in kit to group enemies quite the big difference.

23 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Even the regular cast ragdolls enemies around/But it ragdolls enemies even when used normally, the issue is not one of distance here. Again, this is a fact, so you don't get to parrot my criticism back at me here.

If you want to call a knockdown a ragdoll, sure. Doesnt change that its 1h and its main cover is for ranges at which one wouldnt fight to get the best out of the kit and that its you who has a issue with SP, not SP having a issue other than like a lot of abilities its damage being worthless after a point.

23 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

But what would that achieve?

Give it scaling damage.

23 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

None of those units will be any good if they just hang back, though, so even then you'd still want them moving forward with Nekros and everyone else. There's a difference between having smarter AI and designing AI to play the game for oneself as one goes AFK.

All of those units have a different behavior tree (well some are mixed in because they would be better with the one the rest of the group has). No, you dont want your drones or ancients to rush the enemy, you want em standing behind nekros and the party. And yes, exactly why i want DE to let players pick which AI type is used and what each persons priorities are.

23 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Really, your opposition here visibly comes from personal preference, rather than criticism anyone else can agree with.

It comes because you are trying to change his game loop into something he isnt with a game loop that you can demonstrate with a sand shadow inaros build+a titania casting lanterns for you to be bad (a objective thing) AND because of personal preference because ofc i like the frame whose game loop i like playing with (a subjective thing). You ignoring the objective part wont make it go away.

23 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I don't agree with this, because no amount of thinking about numbers is going to affect how one plays Nekros, unlike Garuda, where one has to estimate an opponent's health bar for the execute.

THE EXECUTE IS WORTHLESS, it doesnt even come up in the throught process. Just what the toughest enemy is, if 1 or 2 or 3 jumps is correct and from what angle one can 4+ball as many enemies because they ALL DIE. If you have 20% of a tough enemies HP, add some more chip damage+whatever charge time one estimates to be needed (no more than 2s for all practical examples unless we go back to the nox thing or status immune stuff), then deal 245~380% of that damage AGAIN ONTOP AS TRUE DAMAGE, EVERYTHING DIES.

23 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Nekros's resource management playstyle is in by teridax68s opinion passive

FTFYY

23 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

because farming setups are what he's picked for

BECAUSE HIS 3 ALSO HAPPENS TO GIVE LOOT IN A LOOTER GAME. And if you are farming something specific solo you pick ivara or khora (or hydroid if you like hyroid) over him.
DE can remove the mods and resource drop part from him and it wouldnt impact his game loop the slightest, just the usage % by the playerbase.

23 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

as I think Nekros's real resource is Shadows, not health orbs or the like.

And you're wrong, he is all 4 of his skills, 1 to cover him, 2 as hard cc if enemies get tough and as a soft assist during ramp, 3 for the resource juggle and 4 for the aggro pull, the later 3 all working with one another in natural/non-forced ways.

23 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Okay, but which gameplay options are we talking about? What specific playstyles are we discussing here?

Same as talked prior with the nekros shadows.

23 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

How so?

Because it shows you dont care what the game loop is. If ou cant see the value in modding the song which influences the damage timing, cc strength and action for buff timing doesnt matter to you, then the game loop plays fundamentally doesnt.

[Teridax68]

9 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Often enough, even early in on chart missions like going 40 min+ on kuva survival.

Putting aside how 40+ minutes on Kuva Survival is nowhere "early in on chart missions" (sic)... how does that situation arise, exactly? Does Terrify magically cease to have any effect?

9 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Because right now it is, baking it in default is to fixes a issue on the coop side exactly because its useless as a augment/doesnt give power nor usable utility for the player unless its a single enemy immune to fear (in which case Zenurik TB does the slow without costing a augment slot and zenurik was and still is, for the vast majorit of content, the best focus school and isnt subject to ability restrictions). Whe even on the first comment to it i said the slow nerf/removal of indirect condi dur from slows was dumb.

You literally just contradicted your assertion that the augment was useless, while also trying to sidestep the fact that the point was not what you'd originally claimed it to be.

9 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Because it is, augments shouldnt account for base frame balance but later scaling or changing some part of the game loop

Same as right above on moving the goalposts here, but also my change is perfectly in line with a whole lot of other armor-removing augments that aren't mandatory. As such, I fail to see why I'd be trying to balance Nekros around this augment.

9 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Except it are personal issues.

So massive player consensus and clear arguments for why certain types of crowd control do not function well in Warframe are "personal issues". Got it.

9 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Energy to hp (and ammo) is the base one, Equi then further alters it. And it is unique because he is the one frame that can actually benefit from it consistantly.
As went over Nezha would be the other but he got a better iron skin in his kit.

Energy to ammo... how? Also, how does that "benefit" meaningfully alter his gameplay? At the end of the day, everything you are saying here can boil down just as easily to health regen.

9 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Because you said "sounds good on paper, isnt in practice", when in practice its better than even what it sounds on paper while the execute is the part that sounds useful but isnt.

How so?

9 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

And you misread, incoming damage calc changes (like nox or jugger armor) which thus prevent ball combo from being as effective as they are on all enemies without such a effect (which is almost every enemy) is where the execute might actually be of use (assuming you dont turn them into a altar instead).

But I didn't misread, then, you just inserted a red herring that does not prevent the execute from being generally useful against exceptionally durable single targets, e.g. Bombards and Heavy Gunners, not just Noxes or Juggernauts.

9 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

No, you just want to ignore that delay till ability can be used+even high base damage doesnt make a ability work for a core loop without the rest of the kit supporting it.

Where is the delay in my ability? Does my ability ragdoll enemies and send them floating into the air? Does my proposed ability deal flat damage?

9 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Except it doesnt, you ignoring reality that even the closest multi ability combo (with vauban) is a multi ability combo that doesnt care for enemy to be a corpse and scales off incomming weapon damage.

... why are we talking about multi-ability combos? My proposal isn't a multi-ability combo either, so you really are talking complete nonsense here.

9 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Except it wasnt you, but me who said your version would have to be changed to a weapon buff version akin to the augments or at least aura to not actively hinder the game loop

I never stated otherwise, and in fact I questioned your claims there too, as I see no reason why my proposal would have to be changed to whatever it is you're suggesting here in order to work.

9 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

And thats even without noting how you keep ignoring the point that such abilities need other effects to be abilities instead of in build trade offs.

Why? How do you substantiate that point?

9 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

You're the one working of blind ideas instead of precedent or even examples (do i have to remind you of adaptation and how long the shadows cast time is?).

This is false, as I listed multiple precedents in Warframe, namely those weapon mods and Nova's Molecular Prime, for my Desecrate Proposal, to say nothing of how the evidence is also in my favor for why SoS is a better choice than Adaptation on Nekros. You are the one who gave up on that point after you realized no amount of repetition would make your miscalculations any less unconvincing.

9 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Corpse Explosion builds (like a few other D2 builds) were degenerate, because they worked off disproportional power.

Disproportionate... relative to what? D2 is full of powerful builds, and CE isn't even at the top, so that really is a weaksauce argument.

9 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

CE specifically having been a 1 point pick no matter what since base packs let it self propegate (which in Warframe is turret gameplay) while full builds based on it had extra high aoe size ontop.

... okay, but then my version doesn't self-propagate, so where's the issue? Also, if you think that's unbalanced, have you actually played D2?

9 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Due to warframes lower enemy density but also faster pace the only way that could reasonably make it work is going as degenerate/doing the equivalent of equinox day 4 trigger stored its damage for the next 4 cast (as you keep blindly refusing other comments on it).

Lower density? Really now? At this stage, it is questionable whether you play Warframe at all, as jumping into even a single mission will have enemies rushing the player in clumps, perfect for my proposed corpse explosion effect.

9 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Except CE builds, despite being degenerate, didnt work in D2 because eventually the first corpse requirement was so high that either you did fiddly BS with making a corpse pre pack and pulling em around OR made a build around bone lance or nova. Its why both D3 and POE have corpse generators without killing, why Div OS2 has a cheap corpse gen and can generate more through other weak summons. To make the build actually stand on its own as a game loop without having to make it degenerate.

... they work just fine, though? There is plenty of footage of D2 CE Necromancer, so you really are making things up here.

9 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Yes it does. You ignoring the point doesnt make the point of tangible instant benefit vs potential combat benefit if the skill is OP enough or you have another ability in kit to group enemies quite the big difference.

This is a rather interesting claim to make when you deliberately truncated the part of my quote where I explained why there is no difference between the two arbitrary options you raised. You have established a false distinction, that was easily pointed out, which itself constitutes the exact opposite of ignoring the point at hand. Your argumentation here is inconsistent with itself, and across the different points you have attempted to make regarding Desecrate.

9 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

If you want to call a knockdown a ragdoll, sure. Doesnt change that its 1h and its main cover is for ranges at which one wouldnt fight to get the best out of the kit and that its you who has a issue with SP, not SP having a issue other than like a lot of abilities its damage being worthless after a point.

As pointed out by the many, many, many quotes from other players, I am by no means the only one who has an issue with SP, and it is you who have been attempting to defend a notoriously poor ability. The ability is a ragdoll in all cases, and its one-handedness and range does not in any way meaningfully benefit Nekros relative to its baseline impotence.

9 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Give it scaling damage.

And given that you're proposing low amounts of scaling damage, what would that achieve?

9 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

All of those units have a different behavior tree (well some are mixed in because they would be better with the one the rest of the group has). No, you dont want your drones or ancients to rush the enemy, you want em standing behind nekros and the party. And yes, exactly why i want DE to let players pick which AI type is used and what each persons priorities are.

You are just restating yourself here, without advancing anything new. You are still failing to explain why your "behavior tree" would meaningfully benefit the game, or contribute to anything besides facilitating leeching playstyles

9 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

It comes because you are trying to change his game loop into something he isnt with a game loop that you can demonstrate with a sand shadow inaros build+a titania casting lanterns for you to be bad (a objective thing) AND because of personal preference because ofc i like the frame whose game loop i like playing with (a subjective thing). You ignoring the objective part wont make it go away.

And which objective part may that be? It is already within his current game loop to ramp up and generate Shadows, so once again, you are visibly arguing purely from personal preference here.

9 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

THE EXECUTE IS WORTHLESS, it doesnt even come up in the throught process.

To you.

9 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Just what the toughest enemy is, if 1 or 2 or 3 jumps is correct and from what angle one can 4+ball as many enemies because they ALL DIE. If you have 20% of a tough enemies HP, add some more chip damage+whatever charge time one estimates to be needed (no more than 2s for all practical examples unless we go back to the nox thing or status immune stuff), then deal 245~380% of that damage AGAIN ONTOP AS TRUE DAMAGE, EVERYTHING DIES.

The blood ball deals Impact damage though, and the execute is still valuable due to how the ball can be charged up anyway? Not much of what you're saying here seems to be anchored in reality.

9 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

FTFYY

And this is the part where you completely lose composure. Please explain how Nekros's "resource management" is in any way active, as it is literally just toggling on an aura for health orb drops.

9 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

BECAUSE HIS 3 ALSO HAPPENS TO GIVE LOOT IN A LOOTER GAME. And if you are farming something specific solo you pick ivara or khora (or hydroid if you like hyroid) over him.

... no? He still works better, but also you citing the obvious reason why he's picked in farm comps does not detract from he fact that he is picked pretty much exclusively for farm comps. Not entirely sure what point you are trying to make here.

9 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

DE can remove the mods and resource drop part from him and it wouldnt impact his game loop the slightest, just the usage % by the playerbase.

Indeed, to near zero, as farming is the only thing he's picked for.

9 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

And you're wrong, he is all 4 of his skills, 1 to cover him, 2 as hard cc if enemies get tough and as a soft assist during ramp, 3 for the resource juggle and 4 for the aggro pull, the later 3 all working with one another in natural/non-forced ways.

That's all very nice, except two of his abilities don't do anything worthwhile, one's a passive loot aura, and the fourth summons his undead army, so I'm in fact encouraging his abilities to come together even better.

9 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Same as talked prior with the nekros shadows.

Which playstyles?

9 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Because it shows you dont care what the game loop is. If ou cant see the value in modding the song which influences the damage timing, cc strength and action for buff timing doesnt matter to you, then the game loop plays fundamentally doesnt.

But in practice the only influence the Mandachord has had is that it's encouraged high-BPM messes for maximum damage instead of allowing for freeform song creation, which was the original intent. None of this, by the way, is a "game loop", as the Mandachord is edited prior to mission start, and Octavia's abilities are all self-managed deployables. In the end, I do agree that our difference in opinion here explains why we've disagreed so much, because ultimately you don't seem to understand what a game loop is, let alone active versus passive gameplay, and are instead prepared to argue complete gibberish in defense of whichever unloved playstyle you're promoting at the time. Really, behind all of these arguments, the simple truth is that you're far too protective of Nekros in his current state to accept any meaningful change to him or his playstyle, and are willing to erect wall upon wall of text in the hope that it'll scare away people who suggest that he changes. As it stands, you have failed against even a single person, to say nothing of how your actions are but a drop in a sea of wider criticisms of Nekros and his current kit. 

[NuclearCoffeePot]

On 2019-12-01 at 10:52 PM, TheSkeletonPolice said:

Nekros desperately needs a rework. Something to make him more useful than just a farmer. As he is his abilities aren't very effective for anything but farming resources. Id like something to make him feel more like a powerful necromancer with the idea being to make greater use of his summons. He just doesn't do much as it is. I'd like to be able to tell my summons what to shoot at or even use them as bombs to throw at enemies. Id like his abilities to synergize with his summons, the way a necromancer would.

Something like using an ability to mark enemies for the shadows to kill, or being able to sacrifice a shadow to buff yourself. Shadows also need to be stronger to be able to damage enemies.

 

I am creating lots of rework ideas for various frames, i've already done a brief zephyr post- two more in-depth ones about my boi hydroid and queen titania, I want to look at nekros and frost next so I'm gonna run some ideas by you real quick to gauge how well they are conceptually-

Passive- current- ok but it has more potential- it also doesn't help much when you can;t kill things

New- Soul Spark-When enemies die or are effected by certain abilities while near nekros he will collect a soul spark from them- this heals him for x amount- if he is at full health he will increase his max health so long as he has soul sparks- Soul sparks are stored and visually represented as a decaying resource bar(i know o god not another meter idea) - the meter interacts with other abilities to enhance their effects

1-After reading the dismember post I have devised my own soul punch concept-

Tap cast- dash to the target enemy and rip part of their soul from their body, gaining a soul spark- if they are below x hp value(scaling with strength) you recieve more sparks and deal more damage- if an enemy dies they release what remains of their soul as x projectiles that seek nearby enemies and either reduce armor or max hp

hold- hold cast to dash to a location in front of the targeted enemy and lift them and nearby opponents into the air- these enemies are subjected to both physical and spiritual damage on attacks having a chance to take slash damage on any attack and drop soul sparks- 3 will deal a slash proc and steal extra soul sparks from effected enemies

2-Terrify- Nekros signals the end for his enemies, exhuding an aura of dread- enemies in range have their nerves shaken and have decreased accuracy the closer they get to a tenno- Nekros continually releases soul sparks(1 per enemy in range not effected by a soul spark)- enemies struck by sparks have their defenses reduced(costs soul sparks)

-Enemies within x meters of nekros who come in line of sight become instantly terrified and flee, dropping their ranged weapons in the progress and losing the ability to cast...well abilities

3-Desecrate-My only real change- enemies effected by desecrate drop soul sparks

4-Shadows of the dead is pretty unique- while some frames summon clones and ai none summon as many as nekros, only mirage clones take no damage- while many ai are hindered by poor damage this is not a problem because do to their numbers their greatest purpose is aggro- however, as a funky change- number of enemies summoned limited to x amount- shadows recieve damage multipliers based on your held soul sparks

[Andele3025]

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Putting aside how 40+ minutes on Kuva Survival is nowhere "early in on chart missions" (sic).

It is.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

how does that situation arise, exactly? Does Terrify magically cease to have any effect?

No, as said its just that multiple (be it same or different ability) casts at a time become more valueable (and the closest to elevate effect for energy is energy pizzas which not everyone spams or would rely on as in that case one could equally argue that vitality is outdated).

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

You literally just contradicted your assertion that the augment was useless, while also trying to sidestep the fact that the point was not what you'd originally claimed it to be.

No i did not, its literally objectively worthless. Its a augment that doesnt give any extra power or utility, instead being a fix for the ability, designed only for pug coop.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Same as right above on moving the goalposts here, but also my change is perfectly in line with a whole lot of other armor-removing augments that aren't mandatory. As such, I fail to see why I'd be trying to balance Nekros around this augment.

No. Its just you nerfing the ability as stated initially and making the augment mandatory.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

So massive player consensus and clear arguments for why certain types of crowd control do not function well in Warframe are "personal issues". Got it.

Yes. Its your own bias and inability to use the ability correctly.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Energy to ammo... how? Also, how does that "benefit" meaningfully alter his gameplay? At the end of the day, everything you are saying here can boil down just as easily to health regen.

Desecrate. And as i said, because it+HC+Equi allow for a unique game loop of resource juggling. Stop ignoring the truth to troll the thread.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

How so?

Because garuda already kills everything by ignoring armor and shields and everything but alt DR calcs.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

But I didn't misread, then, you just inserted a red herring that does not prevent the execute from being generally useful against exceptionally durable single targets, e.g. Bombards and Heavy Gunners, not just Noxes or Juggernauts.

No its not. A bombard, just like every other unit gets hits calculated as normal thus get killed.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Where is the delay in my ability?

Corpse requirement.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

... why are we talking about multi-ability combos? My proposal isn't a multi-ability combo either, so you really are talking complete nonsense here.

BECAUSE TO WORK IT HAS TO BE JUST AS IT IS IN THE ONLY COMBO ONE COULD EVEN COMPARE THAT WORKS IN GAME.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I never stated otherwise, and in fact I questioned your claims there too, as I see no reason why my proposal would have to be changed to whatever it is you're suggesting here in order to work.

Then you didnt think about game design.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Why? How do you substantiate that point?

Because win more abilities need tangible benefits if you dont want to use a entire kit but at best a passive and/or other ability to make its win more effect work.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

This is false, as I listed multiple precedents in Warframe, namely those weapon mods and Nova's Molecular Prime

I listed them and novas 4 is a example of "effects ontop", everyone uses it for the slow/speed up and damage multi, not the poofs.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

f how the evidence is also in my favor for why SoS is a better choice than Adaptation on Nekros. You are the one who gave up on that point after you realized no amount of repetition would make your miscalculations any less unconvincing.

No its not. I demonstrated so going as far as posting a clip showing how easy and better adaptation is being a single instead of a 2 mod slot cost. Stop trolling.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Disproportionate... relative to what? D2 is full of powerful builds,

Which are expensive and rely on items, but in exchange tend to work universally/depend on manipulating or overcomming enemy stats instead of being able to ignore everything but extra skill ranks/range and item chance.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

and CE isn't even at the top,

because it requires a initial corpse which means a build dedicated to something else actually works outside of speed farming. WHICH IS THE ISSUE OF WIN MORE ABILITIES.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Also, if you think that's unbalanced, have you actually played D2?

Yes, just because something is unviable at chunks of the game due to bad design (or lacking fix in a corpse generation skill like D3, DivOS2, PoE, realized) doesnt mean its well balanced.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Lower density? Really now? At this stage, it is questionable whether you play Warframe at all, as jumping into even a single mission will have enemies rushing the player in clumps, perfect for my proposed corpse explosion effect.

Even ESO barely compares to D2 in terms of mob density, god forbid D3 or PoE are added to the equation.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

This is a rather interesting claim to make when you deliberately truncated the part of my quote where I explained why there is no difference between the two arbitrary options you raised. You have established a false distinction, that was easily pointed out, which itself constitutes the exact opposite of ignoring the point at hand. Your argumentation here is inconsistent with itself, and across the different points you have attempted to make regarding Desecrate.

Just because you dont understand that "i get more from kill" is different from "i gamble for a kill to help another kill" doesnt make the argument somehow invalid. It just means you are ignoring years of game design.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

As pointed out by the many, many, many quotes from other players, I am by no means the only one who has an issue with SP, and it is you who have been attempting to defend a notoriously poor ability. The ability is a ragdoll in all cases, and its one-handedness and range does not in any way meaningfully benefit Nekros relative to its baseline impotence.

You having a personal issue with SP is still merely you having a personal issue with SP and ignoring that it covers parts not addressed by nekros' kit other than damage.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

And given that you're proposing low amounts of scaling damage, what would that achieve?

Scaling. A ability doesnt need to 1 shot enemies to be good.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

You are just restating yourself here, without advancing anything new. You are still failing to explain why your "behavior tree" would meaningfully benefit the game, or contribute to anything besides facilitating leeching playstyles

BECAUSE IT ALLOWS DIFFERENT PLAYSTYLES AND BUILDS, STOP IGNORING REALITY JUST BECAUSE IT COUNTERS YOUR OPINION AND NO, its your version supports leeching by attempting to chrun everything into god damn aggro mode despite how a lot of mobs work.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

And which objective part may that be? It is already within his current game loop to ramp up and generate Shadows, so once again, you are visibly arguing purely from personal preference here.

Because you are changing it from resource control to only shadows. Again ignoring the point wont change it and only means you keep trolling the thread.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

To you.

No, its mathematically worthless for everything that cant alter the balls incomming damage calc for 4.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

The blood ball deals Impact damage though, and the execute is still valuable due to how the ball can be charged up anyway? Not much of what you're saying here seems to be anchored in reality.

You do know how her 4 works, right?

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

And this is the part where you completely lose composure. Please explain how Nekros's "resource management" is in any way active, as it is literally just toggling on an aura for health orb drops.

Because it encourages you to kill more and think about your resources and their expenditure. Im sorry if the idea of "leave energy orbs around/be at high energy and let shadows die midway through to gen more orbs because of enemy damage output to heal back up from them in time to kill the enemies to have EHP to survive burst damage" is too complex of a concept compared to presses x to never die, but unlike said press x to never die thats what interactive gameplay actually is.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

... no? He still works better, but also you citing the obvious reason why he's picked in farm comps does not detract from he fact that he is picked pretty much exclusively for farm comps. Not entirely sure what point you are trying to make here.

STOP TROLLING (or ignoring reality or forgetting your own attempted point). Nekros would work no matter if he gives non-combat items or not despite you not understanding that he isnt just a loot frame.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Indeed, to near zero, as farming is the only thing he's picked for.

No. I play nekros for the kits gameloop.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

That's all very nice, except two of his abilities don't do anything worthwhile, one's a passive loot aura, and the fourth summons his undead army, so I'm in fact encouraging his abilities to come together even better.

No, you were just suggesting to nerf him out of lacking knowledge about how he works.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Which playstyles?

Offense, defense, CC, optionally quick expendable mooks vs slower ramp of stronger boss mooks or even a functionally shadowless (or MCless) gameplay by making them not wander nor stick to player depending on what AI trees would DE allow.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

But in practice the only influence the Mandachord has had is that it's encouraged high-BPM messes for maximum damage

High BPMs value is for stealth and its more because the timing is desynched from both audio and visual que (later because the visuals scale with power range).

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

instead of allowing for freeform song creation, which was the original intent. None of this, by the way, is a "game loop", as the Mandachord is edited prior to mission start, and Octavia's abilities are all self-managed deployables.

Yes it is, ignoring reality wont make the fact that your gameplay loop depends on your build any less true.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

In the end, I do agree that our difference in opinion here explains why we've disagreed so much, because ultimately you don't seem to understand what a game loop is, let alone active versus passive gameplay, and are instead prepared to argue complete gibberish in defense of whichever unloved playstyle you're promoting at the time. Really, behind all of these arguments, the simple truth is that you're far too protective of Nekros in his current state to accept any meaningful change to him or his playstyle, and are willing to erect wall upon wall of text in the hope that it'll scare away people who suggest that he changes.

No, the difference is that you dont care about gameplay, just the results and never put any effort into learing how to play nekros and are now trolling by ignoring points.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

As it stands, Teridax68 has failed against even a single person, to say nothing of how Teridax68s suggestions are but a drop in a sea of wider criticisms of Nekros and his current kit form people that dont play him.

FTFY. Now stop trolling.

[Andele3025]

3 hours ago, NuclearCoffeePot said:

New- Soul Spark-When enemies die or are effected by certain abilities while near nekros he will collect a soul spark from them- this heals him for x amount- if he is at full health he will increase his max health so long as he has soul sparks- Soul sparks are stored and visually represented as a decaying resource bar(i know o god not another meter idea) - the meter interacts with other abilities to enhance their effects

To start, not ever frame needs to have the nidus thing, even so:

3 hours ago, NuclearCoffeePot said:

Tap cast- dash to the target enemy and rip part of their soul from their body, gaining a soul spark- if they are below x hp value(scaling with strength) you recieve more sparks and deal more damage- if an enemy dies they release what remains of their soul as x projectiles that seek nearby enemies and either reduce armor or max hp

Dash would need to keep the 50m range to keep with SPs use. Also below x would probably be better as "gains x more resource proportionally with current enemy hp", encouraging you to dash to new targets with the damage portion then being reverse of it. That way it also works off max hp reduction.

3 hours ago, NuclearCoffeePot said:

hold- hold cast to dash to a location in front of the targeted enemy and lift them and nearby opponents into the air- these enemies are subjected to both physical and spiritual damage on attacks having a chance to take slash damage on any attack and drop soul sparks- 3 will deal a slash proc and steal extra soul sparks from effected enemies

The entire part could be fused into 1 instead of 2 alt cast types when the second is just more effective: dash/teleport, on hit enemy is debuffed for duration and subject to stomp/bastille/exodia like static lift, for the duration incomming damage guarantees a mid body dismember/double orb rolls from desecrate on kill and gives "soul sparks" on hit proportional to damage dealt.

3 hours ago, NuclearCoffeePot said:

2-Terrify- Nekros signals the end for his enemies, exhuding an aura of dread- enemies in range have their nerves shaken and have decreased accuracy the closer they get to a tenno- Nekros continually releases soul sparks(1 per enemy in range not effected by a soul spark)- enemies struck by sparks have their defenses reduced(costs soul sparks)-Enemies within x meters of nekros who come in line of sight become instantly terrified and flee, dropping their ranged weapons in the progress and losing the ability to cast...well abilities

Accuracy drop isnt required due to shadows already doing that with high aggro priority. Making Terrify a channel suits a augment more. Fear disarming enemies unless they can get them back steps heavily on lokis toes.

 

[NuclearCoffeePot]

5 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

To start, not ever frame needs to have the nidus thing, even so:

Your right, however in terms of effectiveness as a passive it is far more impactful for his survival on a whole- Just because a mechanic is pioneered by 1 frame does not mean other frames are not obliged to utilize it if it fits what they need

5 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Dash would need to keep the 50m range to keep with SPs use. Also below x would probably be better as "gains x more resource proportionally with current enemy hp", encouraging you to dash to new targets with the damage portion then being reverse of it. That way it also works off max hp reduction.

Understandable 

5 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

The entire part could be fused into 1 instead of 2 alt cast types when the second is just more effective: dash/teleport, on hit enemy is debuffed for duration and subject to stomp/bastille/exodia like static lift, for the duration incomming damage guarantees a mid body dismember/double orb rolls from desecrate on kill and gives "soul sparks" on hit proportional to damage dealt.

I considered this- the idea I had in mind was more quick cast for a single target excecute or hold to cc a group and make them easy to kill- fusing them is certainly more gameplay friendly however-

Idea- On cast Nekros dashes to a target enemy, he then fashions their souls into strings that spread to nearby enemies- all enemies effected become suspended in the air and are counted as the lifted effect- attacks guarantee slash damage that dismembers the body if they are below a % hp-

On initial cast Nekros drains sparks from them based on their current hp(more for more)

Enemies killed while effected drop additional energy/health on desecrate 

5 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Accuracy drop isnt required due to shadows already doing that with high aggro priority. Making Terrify a channel suits a augment more. Fear disarming enemies unless they can get them back steps heavily on lokis toes.

Channel was the plan- fair point on the accuracy drop- and while I understand it steps on Loki's toes I feel like if a lord of death from a bygone age of ancient weaponry showed me visions of my inevitable demise I would drp my gun as I S#&$ my pants and run for the hills. The choice was more thematic- and unlike loki it happens only when enemies are close enough to Nekros and in line of sight- plus it is attached to a drain based ability- It gives nekros the plan of activate terrify and run at enemies scaring them S#&$less before using whatever else to punish them rip them to shreds and harvest their remains

 

One afterthought: Shadows of the dead is thematically appropriate but on this idea feels out of place- after all with ideas involving terrifying enemies, dismembering them, and harvesting their souls a shadow that aggro's enemies while is nice for drawing aggro fit's less

Ideas-

1- Nekros calls upo the aspect of death, transforming him into deaths herald- while in this mode Nekros becomes melee only striking with swipes using his elongated fingernails- abilities have increased efficiency- gain an armor bonus/ efficiency based on soul spark numbers-fear range of 2 is increased- 1 hits additional enemies and pulls them together in a group

2-Macabre Tailor/Gallows- Nekros fashions enemies souls into strings that attach around enemies necks(number of strings based on base amount plus available soul sparks- Enemies effected are slowed by x amount effected by power strength- if they turn their back on Nekros they are yanked back, recieving a knockdown, taking slash damage ,and being pulled closer- 

 

[NovusNova]

Thread has failed to remain constructive and respectful.

If you disagree with another user then either disagree respectfully and continue contributing to the actual topic at hand or move on without posting, insulting them or reporting them for disagreeing with you is not the way to solve differing opinions on feedback.

Closing.