Ash needs a rework

[(PSN)StealthyJ_thagod]

The reason he needs a rework cause he is one of the least played warframes because the lack of skills that he  should require like he’s first move u don’t get anywhere with that 

[Dark-Sheer]

His 4 is to slow. They should remove the marking mechanic.

Edited December 2, 2019 by Dark-Sheer

[(PSN)Vexx757]

I wouldn't say he needs a rework but he does need to be looked at again. The 1st ability is only good with its augment. Augments should be used as an option and not coz the ability on its own is bad, the 2nd ability could benefit by having better cc and even through ppl say that his invisible is too short I have no issue with it, the 3rd ability has potential to be so much better just of the concept of teleportation alone and the 4th ability is terrible when it comes to activation speed, it`s too slow and other ppl can take your kills (even in low levels) and even more things that make it bad.

Overall Ash is a contradiction to what DE wants ppl to do in this game.... PLAY AS A TEAM, that's why he needs to be looked at again and If I were to give him a re-visit, this is what I would do;

 

Ash:

·       All abilities can be cast while on a zipline.

 

1st Ability:

·       If enemy is killed in one hit it is considered as a stealth kill.

·       Holding the ability will make both shurikens target the enemy you`re aiming at dealing double slash damage and adds critical damage based on what mods you have equipped on your melee weapon.

·       The more health the enemy loses, the slower the enemy moves when bleeding out.

·       When the enemy stops bleeding, it will go back to its normal movement speed.

·       Depending what how much combo multi you have will determine how much damage it will do.

 

2nd Ability:

·       Increase the cast stun duration to 4 sec.

·       The smoke left behind will last for 10 seconds.

·       Enemies that enter the smoke will have a 6 sec stun duration and are 40% more susceptible to damage.

·       All stun durations cannot be increased by duration mods.

·       Increase smoke cloud radius by 7m

·       Smoke cloud`s radius can be increased by range mods.

·       The stun and the smoke damage buff will also work on bosses.

·       When Ash is invisible, the apparitions from bs are also invisible.

 

There are now new ways you can use this ability;

·       You can use it next to a dangerously high-levelled enemy to stun it and kill it with ease.

·       You can use it to block enemies in doorways. Since the smoke affect duration is 6 seconds and the smoke lasts 10 seconds, enemies will be stuck for a total of 12 seconds.

·       If you mod for less duration and more range, it will turn it into a better cc ability.

 

3rd Ability:

·       Holding the ability will show an indicator of where he can teleport to from the radical.

·       Teleporting to a wall will make ash hang to the wall for 3 seconds.

·       Not only it can teleport to anything with a health bar, it can also teleports to anything that can be scanned.

·       You can teleport through windows if there are allies, npcs, enemies or objects with a health bar on the other side of it.

·       You are able to teleport to enemies that are in the air.

·       After teleporting in the air, preforming melee attacks will keep him in the air.

 

4th Ability:

·       When activating the ability, it will start instantly.

·       Pressing the ability will bring you into the animation while holding the ability will send clones out to kill instead of you.

·       If you want to jump out of bs, press the ability again and the clones will continue to kill enemies.

·       Enemies that are red can be killed by players.

·       There is no limit to how many enemies he can kill within the radius of the enemy he`s aiming at.

·       An indicator is shown of the number of enemies that are going to be killed by bs.

 

Since Ash doesn`t have any synergy (or any good ones) here are some that will improve his performance;

 

Synergies

Smoke Screen + Shuriken, Teleport & Blade Storm:

·       If you use any ability while you`re invisible, enemy bodies will disappear.

·       The energy cost will also be cut down by half.

·       If you teleport to an enemy while you are invisible you will stun enemies around you.

·       Using you 1st, 3rd and 4th abilities on the smoke victim will increase the damage dealt to the enemy.

 

Shuriken + Teleport:

·       Using the 1st ability on an enemy will show their health bar through walls longer, making you able to teleport to them as long as they are continually receiving bleeding ticks.

 

Since DE is getting rid of the combo multiplier, here is a solution to building up damage.

 Shuriken + Blade Storm:

To increase the damage of bs you must use shuriken. As long as enemies continuously keep receiving bleeding ticks, your damage will increase over time with no limit.

·       Enemies need to be alive and bleeding from the 1st ability for bs to build up damage.

·       If no enemies are affected by slash, you will have five seconds before the damage is lost.

·       If the five seconds is up, the stored-up damage will decay overtime instead of disappearing completely.

·       There will be an indicator showing the amount of damage you are accumulating and the amount of time you have left.

·       If you get downed, the timer won`t start until you are revived.

 

Fixes:

·       Make Ash be able to teleport in and out of the same grates instead of just one direction.

·       Make opening enemies up to finishers consistent with 3rd ability.

·       Sometime ash is glitched and stabbing the air and he is unseen when using bs due to camera angle.

·       Make the “clones” look like him (like wukong`s 1st ability) instead of looking like a hologram.

·       When blade storm is done, Ash doesn’t appear at the same place he started at but instead is teleported in a different location.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

8 minutes ago, Dark-Sheer said:

His 4 is to slow. They should remove the marking mechanic.

Current bs problems:

 

·       The two stages of the killing process make bs slow, because of this, other players can take his kills before you get a chance to kill them which makes him not helpful in the team, not fun to play and in a fast-pasted game this is bad.

 

·       Marking enemies for some players is sickening because of the motion of moving the cursor onto enemies, even though it`s easier (but still a problem) to do this using a mouse, doing this on a controller is not as easy, an ability should be able to be easy to use no matter what you use.

 

·       Because enemies are highlighted by your chosen energy colour, it will make enemies more visible to other players to go and kill them which in their minds is a top priority.

 

·       If you want the full damage of bs, you have to mark the enemies three times which will slow you down or  makes you stationary (if you want to do it quickly) to mark enemies with three marks. In low-level missions, your energy will be refunded back to you if you over mark and in high levels you obviously going to want the full damage of it so there is absolutely no point in having to choose the amount of damage you want to dish out. With the old bs, you had the full damage regardless.

 

·       Bodies disappearing makes it to where you can`t bring him in a desecrating team with a nekros. While bodies disappearing makes sense on paper for him being a ninja and I like the idea, unfortunately, this just makes him a problem in that team.

 

·       The indicator shows how many marks instead of how many enemies affected by bs. Because of this, you have no idea how many enemies are going to be killed. If it showed how many enemies affected by bs, it will let the play know when to use bs again.

 

·       Using your 2nd ability to use less energy is not synergy. Synergy is meant to be a choice that makes a difference in missions however, this so-called synergy is a must to use it consistently which makes it a bad gimmick.

 

·       Using the 3rd ability to join the animation costs no energy but you need energy to be able to use it which makes no sense plus, in low-level missions, sometimes you`re not even going to get a chance use your 3rd ability because the apparitions have killed the enemies already. (depending on how many enemies you mark)

 

·       Apparitions (clones) appearance is not consistent. The visuals go from looking like you custom coloured Ash to a hologram version, to the original ash look with default colours. Also, this is a bug that the old bs had which means it has not been fixed.

 

·       When marking, you can`t mark enemies that are behind walls or objects which make you have to run around searching for enemies to kill and if you in a team, your marked enemies will be killed off by your teammates.

 

·       Even if Ash`s damage has increased to 2,000, (his damage now is still great) the damage is not as good compared to the old bs. The apparitions of the old bs was like Saryn`s 1st ability damage but slightly better, (and the terminator) the apparitions would not stop killing until the enemies were dead and even though attack speed mods can increase their killing speed, with the current bs, the apparitions only attack three times however the bleeding damage speed cannot.

 

·       You can`t pick an choose what enemies you want to kill; (which people claim you can do) on paper it makes sense however in practise the idea is not useful. For example, if you wanted to mark an energy eximus in-between two other enemies and you only have enough energy to mark one enemy, you are not able to.

 

Reasons;

 

· Enemies are running around to where you will either run out of energy or you simply can`t mark the eximus.

 

· You will have to stand there trying to mark that one enemy.

 

· You have a chance to get hit by a stray bullet or by an explosion whether you use your 2nd ability or not.

 

· If you’re playing in a team, someone WILL take the kill from you.

 

· Teleport can do it better and is faster at it. (this alone destroys the purpose of using it that way)

 

People say that he is in a good place but he`s not, the only times he is good is playing him solo, in high-level missions and in missions where there are no killing warframes and even then, guns do it better. The majority of people (including new players) play low to mid-level missions and Ash`s bs mechanics doesn’t work there.

 

At the time ash was ranked the number one favourited warframe by votes on Mogamu`s channel in 2016. Now he is one of the least used warframe stated by DE themselves on life of rio`s video in 2018.

[BasKy]

hace 9 horas, (PS4)Vexx757 dijo:

Overall Ash is a contradiction to what DE wants ppl to do in this game.... PLAY AS A TEAM

I disagree. Ash is good at dealing damage and not much else. And that's fine, play as a team and bring others that help you defend the target if that's what you need.

And Bladestorm is relatively slow. Obvously, since people keep comparing it to nuke frames.
 

hace 9 horas, (PS4)StealthyJ_thagod dijo:

The reason he needs a rework cause he is one of the least played warframes

That's not a valid reason.

Shuriken and Teleport are the ones that need a change the most. At least Shuriken is at the same level as almost every other 1 ability (useless).

[(PSN)Vexx757]

24 minutes ago, BasKy said:

I disagree. Ash is good at dealing damage and not much else.

My first point alone proves that what I said is true. As much as I like Ash, he does nothing for the team.

[EinheriarJudith]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

My first point alone proves that what I said is true. As much as I like Ash, he does nothing for the team.

him not having abilities that boost teammates is not a problem. all teams need DPS. so yes. he does bring something to the team. which is further boosted by frames that buff. every frame does not need to have team skills.

Edited December 2, 2019 by EinheriarJudith

[NinjaZeku]

41 minutes ago, BasKy said:

Ash is good at dealing damage and not much else. And that's fine
[...] Bladestorm is relatively slow. Obvously, since people keep comparing it to nuke frames.

So, Ash being a damage Frame that falls behind other damage Frames, who also offer more to the Squad, is fine?
Can't really agree with you there, sorry.

TBH, I find Ash to be ~fun enough in solo play, and I've used him a bunch over the years
(he was my go-to Spy etc Frame for quite a while back when because Loki was more popular and I'm a hipster I guess lol),
but it's just hard for me to pick him in Squads nowadays since I quite enjoy having support options / something besides just damage,
and Ash is just ... not the Frame for that, and yet even his damage, as was pointed out, is not that amazing, either.

He needs something more. More damage, eh I guess that would be okay, but something besides that would be way more interesting, IMO.

But for now I guess I'll just keep using e.g. Wukong to make my Squad invisible and traverse maps quickly and safely
(woo dat Cloudwalker buff, pour one out for ol' Zephyr) while having some good DPS going on when it's fightin' time.

[Silvertap]

I dont play Ash, because he is slow, his invisibility is the shortest and i don't really like his kit... Loking at the warframes right now if we look at invisibility alone his is like hydroid, an old machine... But as i know that some people still use him for the shuriken thing, i don't know if a rework would be recomended, even if i would like one... Although Hydroid would be first on my list for reworks.

[Silvertap]

6 minutes ago, NinjaZeku said:

He needs something more. More damage, eh I guess that would be okay, but something besides that would be way more interesting, IMO.

I think Ash is the epitome of the ninja, and should be more of a thematic frame, i don't know, when u say "something more" i think he should have some more thematic skil, be more naruto like(?)... i don't really know, but i kind of agree with u too...

[EinheriarJudith]

20 minutes ago, -AI-Silvertap said:

naruto like(?)

if anything either shinobi or ninja gaiden. dont know why people jump to naruto as if it was the only ninja type. have people forgotten that ninja scroll existed?

[Silvertap]

4 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

if anything either shinobi or ninja gaiden. dont know why people jump to naruto as if it was the only ninja type. have people forgotten that ninja scroll existed?

it is the most popular and magical i guess, but u got what i meant lol

[EinheriarJudith]

Just now, -AI-Silvertap said:

it is the most popular and magical i guess, but u got what i meant lol

true. him and loki are the closest we have to actual ninjas

[Ekemeister]

4 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

if anything either shinobi or ninja gaiden. dont know why people jump to naruto as if it was the only ninja type. have people forgotten that ninja scroll existed?

My personal exasperation stems from that normal inspiration about ninja typically returns to anime or surviving 1980s movie culture. 

Please read all the way thru ability changes and review/comment.

History about both ninja and shinobi is actually fascinating. An example is that real ninja absolutely loved guns (arquebus). The Iga were known as the "fire clan" because they had over 70 different compositions of gunpowder and literally hundreds of applications: grenades, mines, arquebus, cannons, explosive arrows, fireworks, flares, even metal-powders for use as makeshift cutting torches... Back to Warframe.

Honestly, Ash sits in a decent spot. The frame isn't overplayed in any game mode. Ash's passive extends the active time of those godly, armor-bypassing bleeds. The augment "seeking shuriken" strips all armor after 145% PwrStr. Period. Ash's Teleport and Bladestorm both open the enemy to finisher damage (the closest thing to true damage in warframe); to combo teleport into a finisher, hit 'X' while the target is staggered after teleport. Teleporting into Bladestorm gives Ash i-frames. Finally, stealth effectively halts incoming damage, adds melee damage bonus, 20x stealth kill dmg boost + affinity boosts, allows a reset of position / battle pace, easy revives, etc. At 170% PwrEff, a player can snag 15 sec for 7 energy.

Lastly, Ash's kit is monster with a sentinel+secondary+melee CO/hybrid setup. That being said, Most content doesn't survive 2k dmg/100% status electricity/viral hikou prime anyway. Warframe gives players weapons that would break even Borderlands; not every frame needs to be a walking WMD. However, Ash's kit still turns content into ghost towns with just 100% PwrStr.

Lastly, Ash can teleport to anything with a health bar including loot crates and roombas.

As for players fighting each other over kills? That's a teamwork issue. Good Teams make room for each other and synergize, not the opposite. As review, this is an online game; teamwork ironically isn't the strong suit of online gamers. If someone wants to try-hard for most kills in an extermination, let them have at it. Watch them; you may find their lacking awareness amusing.

As for Ash's Kit?

- Change 1./shuriken to a "Tool Kit" (hold 1 for use; tap 1 to switch tools):

   + Senbon Barrage: hold to add more senbon to throw. Applies status effects from IPS/elements in loadout. Tossed shuriken act as decoys, briefly drawing enemy attention (like wisps decoy). Senbon has its own ammo pool; senbon only refills its ammo from extra/unneeded weapon ammo drops on the ground (Shuriken are cheap/improvised tools).

   + Kaginawa: Grappling Hook. Pull, tether, disarm, hogtie enemies (look        up hojojutsu). Hold '1' to throw, latch to walls, or zipline. Throw the kaginawa at a foe to tether. Throw the Kaginawa at a foe and hit interact to hogtie. Hit Interact a second time to execute (finisher dmg). Hit Interact a third time to make the enemy into an effigy/example. Hitting a foe, Holding '1', and melee'ing successive enemies allows Ash to tether more foes using the same energy cord/chain without recasting, Constant energy cost per unit distance traveled. Executed enemies can be interacted with to create effigies. These ghastly effigies cause foes who wonder upon them to suffer a nervous breakdown: spraying gunfire and screaming in panic. Stray fire causes further enemy casualties; their noise acts like a beacon also drawing attention to themselves: resetting Enemy Alarm State after the 'scene' ends.

   +  Kusuri & Uchitake: Field Medicine and a heat candle known last hours irl. Allies in a radius receive healing and temporarily gain buffs to casting speed & power efficiency. Enemies who inhale the smoke are poisoned, see hallucinations, and attack each other until the toxin leaves their system. Like the toxin status, this bypasses shields. Surviving enemies rationalize the endeavor as a fit of madness, resetting the alarm state.

   + Shadow Partner: Calls one of Ash's clones for assistance. The clone mimicks Ash's movements, fighting in the same manner as its owner. If called and interacted with, the clone becomes a disguise, settling upon ash as a mantle and holographically mimicking the a member of the nearby faction. If assigned a target, the clone will grapple an enemy/open them for a finisher/briefly boost finisher dmg. Upon Death the clone explodes loudly and sprays fireworks in a sphere. The display blinds and deafens enemies in 20m for 12 seconds. Foes further afield converge to investigate the area. If Ash would suffer fatal dmg with the clone inside of 10m, the clone switch teleports/kawarimi to save ash. Only damage from the clone's owner and enemies can lead to the death of the clone.

- Change 2./Smokescreen: 

   + the stealth time to energy scaling remains unchanged.

   + the smokebomb produces a lingering smoke cloud that spreads to a base 15m.

   + Enemies entering the 15m cloud can no longer tell friend from foe and will see anyone within 2m as silhouettes. After traveling inside the cloud for 3 seconds, seeing or hearing signs of violence causes enemies to attack any silhouette they can perceive in the cloud with great panic (Similar to Nyx's 2).

   +  Whilst inside a smokecloud, Ash is stealthed indefinitely. The 3x or 4x stealth melee bonus always applies only so long as Ash remains inside a cloud; this cloud bonus scales up and down with Pwr Str. 

   + Once Ash leaves the smoke cloud, Ash is stealthed for smokescreen's traditional duration. Re-entering the smoke cloud resets stealth back to full timer.

  + If the smoke cloud disperses with one person (tenno, boss, or mook) standing starkly amongst dead bodies, all onlooking enemies in a further r+10m  who heard the death throes from the now dispersed cloud focus fire the "doomed spy" with manic, panicked fervor.

  + Calm enemies in a smokecloud are open to stealth kills, regardless of prior alertness state.

  + Smoke Cloud stealths all tenno!

  + Augment: Choking Gas. Smoke cloud causes enemies within to become debilitated/unable to attack. The cloud will also take on the element of the highest ally damage source added to it (similar to zephyr's tornadoes).

- 3./teleport Unchanged.

-4./Bladestorm Unchanged.

[Tatann]

6 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

if anything either shinobi or ninja gaiden. dont know why people jump to naruto as if it was the only ninja type. have people forgotten that ninja scroll existed?

Some people weren't born ;-)

[(PSN)Vexx757]

13 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

him not having abilities that boost teammates is not a problem. all teams need DPS. so yes. he does bring something to the team. which is further boosted by frames that buff. every frame does not need to have team skills.

If you were talking about the old bs, I would agree but that's not the case bs is too slow to be helpful.

[EinheriarJudith]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

If you were talking about the old bs, I would agree but that's not the case bs is too slow to be helpful.

no what actually the problem is, is that too many abilities are not usefull until enemies can stand up to frames damage and this is where bladestorm is a beast.

Edit: the last thing i want to see ash become is an ability spam frame like he used to be.

Edited December 3, 2019 by EinheriarJudith

[(PSN)Vexx757]

7 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

no what actually the problem is, is that too many abilities are not usefull until enemies can stand up to frames damage and this is where bladestorm is a beast.

Either way bs is still too slow and his old bs despite it`s problems is far superior. imo Ash`s abilities (and bs) needs a revisit hence my improvements to him.

[EinheriarJudith]

Just now, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

Either way bs is still too slow and his old bs despite it`s problems is far superior. imo Ash`s abilities (and bs) needs a revisit hence my improvements to him.

bladestorm doesnt need a revisit. people need to learn self control. a frame isnt only 1 power. his passive is enough to pull you through until its time to use bladestorm.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

1 minute ago, EinheriarJudith said:

bladestorm doesnt need a revisit. people need to learn self control. a frame isnt only 1 power. his passive is enough to pull you through until its time to use bladestorm.

If you feel that he don`t need a revisit, that's fine it`s your opinion but imo the probs I listed say he does.

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

16 hours ago, Ekemeister said:

 Ash's Teleport and Bladestorm both open the enemy to finisher damage (the closest thing to true damage in warframe);

Actually his 4 does just straight true damage. Few frames can do true damage, but they include ash, hydroid and frost that i can remember

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

9 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

bladestorm doesnt need a revisit. people need to learn self control. a frame isnt only 1 power. his passive is enough to pull you through until its time to use bladestorm.

The issue about Ash’s 4 isnt how strong or weak it is, but the amount of effort required to use it effectively. Ash would be better (and more fun) if his 4 had the same mechanic as ember’s 4, where enemies you can see before you have clones sent on them, and you get charged energy based on the enemies affected up to a cap of 10 enemies. This doesnt mean you can only affect 10 enemies, it means you only use 10 enemies to drain energy max. So at most 100 energy 

[EinheriarJudith]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

The issue about Ash’s 4 isnt how strong or weak it is, but the amount of effort required to use it effectively. Ash would be better (and more fun) if his 4 had the same mechanic as ember’s 4, where enemies you can see before you have clones sent on them, and you get charged energy based on the enemies affected up to a cap of 10 enemies. This doesnt mean you can only affect 10 enemies, it means you only use 10 enemies to drain energy max. So at most 100 energy 

ive seen what embers rework has done. its hilarious. all the press 4 spam. nah ash doesnt need that imo. it doesnt take alot of time to press 4, sweep your crosshair, and press 4 again. also bladestorm is a toggle that refunds energy used by marks if they are killed by your weapons or other frames.

blade storm is a heavy unit (tough unit) killer any unit that would easily die to a gun or melee or shuriken is one you wont use bladestorm on anyway.

you want press 4 spam? play saryn or ember.

Edited December 3, 2019 by EinheriarJudith

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

Just now, EinheriarJudith said:

ive seen what embers rework has done. its hilarious. all the press 4 spam. nah ash doesnt need that imo. it doesnt take alot of time to press 4, sweep your crosshair, and press 4 again. also bladestorm is a toggle that refunds energy used by marks if they are killed by your weapons or other frames.

blade storm is a heavy unit killer any unit that would die to a gun or melee or shuriken is one you wont use bladestorm on anyway.

you want press 4 spam? play saryn or ember.

Its not easy for consoles first off.

secondly, I fail to see the issue from your PoV with a change like this. It doesnt change the normal playstyle (activating 4, turning DPI to 8000 and jerking the mouse) but also reduces the tediousness of such a gameplay loop that is [hit 4 and spin mouse]. Its like Gauss when he got his changes. He was already a good frame, but was tedious to play effectively when compared to other frames, so he got a bunch of buffs to alleviate the issue

[EinheriarJudith]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

Its not easy for consoles first off.

secondly, I fail to see the issue from your PoV with a change like this. It doesnt change the normal playstyle (activating 4, turning DPI to 8000 and jerking the mouse) but also reduces the tediousness of such a gameplay loop that is [hit 4 and spin mouse]. Its like Gauss when he got his changes. He was already a good frame, but was tedious to play effectively when compared to other frames, so he got a bunch of buffs to alleviate the issue

instant access to the most lethal damage in the game is a no no. its really not hard to understand. slash status is much stronger than viral (miasma) and much stronger than heat (inferno). you want to turn bladestorm into instant press death so it can be spammed like crazy. i absolutely disagree with this opinion.

his gameplay isnt tedious at all. bladestorm has no animation. when you press 4 it doesnt stop you from moving, shooting, reloading, or anything else. same for when you deactivate it. you can turn it on at the beginning of every mission and wait until you actually need it. god forbid frames have skills that have situation use and are not mindless press spam.

Edited December 3, 2019 by EinheriarJudith