The problem with ESO (it ain't nuke frames)

[(XBOX)The Neko Otaku]

Since pablo was taken out of context from his stream about his opinions on sayrn in eso, attention has drawn to eso now again and we can probably fix it so it isn't so reliant on nuke frames to do well in the mode.

Now the lets look at why are frames like sayrn and equinox so effective in the first place. And the reason is of the massive number of kills needed to stat a float in the mode along with the prevention of spamming abilities. Sayrn excels in this as a well built sayrn needs to cast spores once and the small area fill to the brim of enemies will cause spores to build massive damage up quick and kill everything and equinox's maim just feeds off other players kills and simply jump towards a large group of enemies to nuke at once. Frames that needs to constant ability cast to kill can't keep up with these 2 frames as they only need to active they're abilities once per zone to effectively keep the meter up.

Now how do we solve this issue in eso that doesn't rely heavily on nuke frames? Take awat the spam prevention? That would lead to lesser nuke frame being thrown into the eso meta. Well i have few ideas that would relieve the pressure of using nuke frames but keep with killing enemies

1. Better efficiency stimulus and overclocked efficiency 

Currently stimulus just refill a bit of efficiency and that's it but why not have it give a buff to the whole squad that makes kills give more efficiency, but this buff be useless if someone just half hazardly grab these when efficiency is at 90%(we all done this) well that's were overclocking comes in basically it's just stacking additional efficiency but it decays faster than the first 100%. This would help players who struggle to kill the large amounts needed to substain the meter while rewarding those excelling and not letting the stimulus go to waste.

 

2. Vips 

introducing enemies that are tougher than rest but rewards large amounts of efficiency. These vips could come in the form of an old concept of sanctuary onslaught of a warframe specter with a randomized loadout. Alternative of this is making the warframe spectre a very high level and if you cand take it down you cause the portal to the next zone to spawn early giving incentive to ignore enemies to focus on one target.

So what is everyones opinions on these 2 ideas to ease reliance on nuke frames? is it enough or does eso need a complete rework?

[8faiNt]

TL;DR Eso has cooldown on 4

[StinkyPygmy]

The issue is that ESO encourages nuke gameplay because its all about killing as fast as possible, which is exactly the same as 90% of the rest of WFs content. Personally I'd rather ESO just be.... you know... something actually new and fun. Reworked entirely. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that anything where the goal is exclusively about killing as fast as you can is going to encourage people to gravitate to anything that will get that done efficiently. In the case of ESO, its not just people that love meta gaming, it encourages everyone.

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

1 minute ago, StinkyPygmy said:

The issue is that ESO encourages nuke gameplay because its all about killing as fast as possible, which is exactly the same as 90% of the rest of WFs content. Personally I'd rather ESO just be.... you know... something actually new and fun. Reworked entirely. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that anything where the goal is exclusively about killing as fast as you can is going to encourage people to gravitate to anything that will get that done efficiently. In the case of ESO, its not just people that love meta gaming, it encourages everyone.

not wrong 

[(XBOX)The Neko Otaku]

2 minutes ago, StinkyPygmy said:

The issue is that ESO encourages nuke gameplay because its all about killing as fast as possible, which is exactly the same as 90% of the rest of WFs content. Personally I'd rather ESO just be.... you know... something actually new and fun. Reworked entirely. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that anything where the goal is exclusively about killing as fast as you can is going to encourage people to gravitate to anything that will get that done efficiently. In the case of ESO, its not just people that love meta gaming, it encourages everyone.

If the efficiency decay wasn't a thing it would make way for use of different frames but then the "challenge" of eso disappears so rework is probably the better choice than struggling to fix current mode

[StinkyPygmy]

1 minute ago, (XB1)The Neko Otaku said:

If the efficiency decay wasn't a thing it would make way for use of different frames but then the "challenge" of eso disappears so rework is probably the better choice than struggling to fix current mode

Agreed. I can't say which would be the better path with certainty, but I definitely am leaning more towards just nuking ESOs time trial gameplay and breathing new life into it.

At this stage ESO is just glorified survival (and survival is probably my least favorite game mode). In fact, survival is superior IMO purely because I have the luxury of being able to use other frames and still be very successful. In fact, killing too fast in survival can sometimes work against you.

All that being said, I would be fine with ESO remaining mostly as is, as long as it doesn't lead to misdirected balances and nerfs. Nerfs and buffs both have a place, but in this case, I don't think frames should suffer because DE didn't seem to connect the dots and realise that people were obviously going to gravitate towards nuke frames. In this case, the issue is very much with the gamemode, not the tools we use.

[peterc3]

24 minutes ago, (XB1)The Neko Otaku said:

2. Vips 

introducing enemies that are tougher than rest but rewards large amounts of efficiency. These vips could come in the form of an old concept of sanctuary onslaught of a warframe specter with a randomized loadout. Alternative of this is making the warframe spectre a very high level and if you cand take it down you cause the portal to the next zone to spawn early giving incentive to ignore enemies to focus on one target.

A bullet sponge, susceptible to the same tactics that already dominate the mode, or something that actually challenges the skill of the players that will cause an avalanche of barely legible "feedback"?

2 minutes ago, StinkyPygmy said:

All that being said, I would be fine with ESO remaining mostly as is, as long as it doesn't lead to misdirected balances and nerfs. Nerfs and buffs both have a place, but in this case, I don't think frames should suffer because DE didn't seem to connect the dots and realise that people were obviously going to gravitate towards nuke frames. In this case, the issue is very much with the gamemode, not the tools we use.

Except the gameplay in ESO absolutely shines a light on X or Y frame or weapon outdoing most other options. Nerfs and buffs have a place, but not the nerfs and buffs you don't want.

[StinkyPygmy]

10 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

Except the gameplay in ESO absolutely shines a light on X or Y frame or weapon outdoing most other options. Nerfs and buffs have a place, but not the nerfs and buffs you don't want.

Please don't strawman like that. I could flip it on its head and say the exact same thing to you. "but not the nerfs and buffs you don't want" is a completely disingenuous statement to make when i said nothing of the sort and adds literally nothing to your point. I could even take that further and say "Well yeah, no poop" the same applies to literally anything, including your own opinions. Get your clown logic out of here and  Do not put words in my mouth.

ESO is not the bar to balance for and it doesn't highlight anything except that in this very small and niche part of the game, very specific strategies are effective.

You don't give players such a straight forward goal and then blame the tools they use when you literally made your own bed in that regard.

On a side note, I've historically supported nerfs to frames and weapons etc more then buffs, so no, its nothing to do with personal feelings about certain frames. Its because its simply what i see as the most logical solution. No idea why you're so argumentive from the get go.

Edited December 2, 2019 by StinkyPygmy

[peterc3]

9 minutes ago, StinkyPygmy said:

Get your clown logic out of here and  Do not put words in my mouth.

So then, what data do you have to say DE's changes are misguided and your ideas aren't?

13 minutes ago, StinkyPygmy said:

ESO is not the bar to balance for and it doesn't highlight anything except that in this very small and niche part of the game, very specific strategies are effective.

You don't give players such a straight forward goal and then blame the tools they use when you literally made your own bed in that regard.

On a side note, I've historically supported nerfs to frames and weapons etc more then buffs, so no, its nothing to do with personal feelings about certain frames. Its because its simply what i see as the most logical solution. No idea why you're so argumentive from the get go.

Given this thread starts off by saying ESO being the reason to nerf Saryn is totally out of context, how do you say ESO is being used as the bar to balance against? Nobody is blaming anyone or anything. You didn't pay attention to what Pablo said, did you?

[StinkyPygmy]

9 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

So then, what data do you have to say DE's changes are misguided and your ideas aren't?

Given this thread starts off by saying ESO being the reason to nerf Saryn is totally out of context, how do you say ESO is being used as the bar to balance against? Nobody is blaming anyone or anything. You didn't pay attention to what Pablo said, did you?

You have made a lot of assumptions here and clearly didn't pay attention what I said, cherry picking very specific statements and ignoring the rest of what was said, removing context as you see fit.

Firstly, I haven't even mentioned pablo, I'm responding to the thread here. I know there's a lot more going on regarding the topic and i may be missing some information, but not once did bring any of that into the discussion. I'm addressing whats going on here.

Secondly, what data is there to provide? Its a pretty subjective issue here. Its not really a matter of numbers and spreadsheets. Once again I could flip that very statement on its head and say what data do you have to present?

I have no idea why you are so argumentative. if you have some information i might be missing how about you share it and have a legitimate discussion about the topic rather then being deliberately disingenuous, vague, and willfully ignorant. I'm done discussing this with you until you learn how to play nice.

Edited December 2, 2019 by StinkyPygmy

[(PSN)Agent_CHAR]

2 hours ago, StinkyPygmy said:

In the case of ESO, its not just people that love meta gaming, it encourages everyone.

It goes well beyond that in the sense that ESO is tuned to such a degree that *not* using the meta nuke frames pretty much ensures that you fail.  A very real comparison is survival which is another game mode all about kills per second.  The difference is survival is tuned much differently and above that there are multiple abilities like desecrate that allow a player to "adjust" the tuning in their favor.  If you want to run a survival with any frame you pretty much can.

TL/DR survival is fun and done well while ESO is a turd that I will never play unless forced by nightwave.

[DrivaMain]

ESO Efficiency drain gets more and more bigger the farther you go. The farthest zone I managed to get so far without using A nuke frame solo is Zone 6, because the drain is faster than the gain.
 

I would say reduce the efficiency drain by half or increase the number of stimulus present in a zone or re-allowing gear items in ESO. Now before you scream “BuT MuH LEaDErBoArDs”, add a new gamemode that is called Competitive Sanctuary Onslaught  that has the same drop table as ESO but with the gear restrictions applied and the function of that gamemode is to get the highest score to earn your place in the leadorboard.