Regarding Pablo's recent stream about saryn

[Violet_Xe]

4 hours ago, Cubewano said:

So you're just asking for it because of this specific frame? Why? And again, how? I stand by what I said before, which is that Saryn's current power level is just incompatible with co-op play, so are you requesting this game be redone as a solo game? Or is her power level actually relevant? Do you want every frame to be reworked to behave more like her? How is her power being maintained while keeping/giving other frames identities and playstyles without being rendered inert as was noted by yourself in your last response? 

And vague sentiments aren't what I'm looking for, those can crumble easily. Give me specifics on what you want, and no I'm not going to do a where's waldo with your posts to find your supposed scattered elaborations for you, make your argument and please be concise.

Unless you can counter the impact they have as I posited in my previous response your statement is still null and void. We are arguing objective game design and effects, not forum vocality. 

Then show those hundreds with fine detail. Do a whole spread through all instances of gearing, for you and other players. It working for a veteran against non-veterans should not be a baseline to design the game around. 

Nullification was brought to the game as a direct counter to power play like Saryn, they don't need to be without it. Most CC immune enemies are mini bosses and bosses, so that isn't prevalent enough a cause to invalidate them. Same for debuff immunity which operates on an even smaller roster. It's worth noting most of those units are also designed to brush off nukes as well, yet look how prevalent they have remained. None of these points are standard enough to invalidate full play remotely. 

It will not, as shown through numerous examples across my last several responses of where support capabilities thrived in the absence of tiers like Saryn's, and with far less potent utility than she would have even as just a support. I also said nothing of nerfing all dps, or tanks, nor see how that is necesarry since tanks and dps existed full and well while supports where thriving in the past as well, they do not remotely prevent their success or value, only when the scale of nukes went up did problems arise. 

You haven't given a route, just lots of grand notion sentiments of no specific detail or direction except to do it without touching Saryn. As for tackling everything in one go, I'm pretty confident rebalancing a handful of over powered frames is far easier done than vaguely remaking the entire game per your vague dream work, and far less messy in the long term. 

   Argh this is so frustrating >.< Also sorry for the late response, life stuffs.

   No, I'm not asking because of this specific warframe. She is one of many frames which I suggest content for and because she's popular. build content which either favors or doesn't favor her kit by silently pushing players away from her for said missions. She isn't incompatible with co op and does her job as DPS effectively as others in this thread have stated plenty of times. She is a dps and does dps. I've also brought up that she isn't unrivaled in dps and she has points of weakness so she isn't oppressive.
   Would I want more frames to act like saryn? yes, yes I would in the fact they use all of her abilities and has build variety. She's a healthy concept with game modes where she excels like any other warframe. I'll carify again I'm not against a nerf directly to her but the changes being suggested have a high probability of crushing her imo and I'm not alone in this.

   I'll give you specifics but if you want me to go in depth about all this then you're not gunna get it here. that's where I draw the line. Buff toxic and viral eximus to prevent viral and/or corrosive. Make new eximus which create an aura of -status% encouraging critical builds or vice versa. Make eximus which revive up to 3 times on death pushing players away from a nuke charge playstyle. Make new eximus which distort and make enemies harder to cast on or spread effects like invisibility auras. Make new enemies that ARE affected by CC but have resistances to damage. Make new AI and abilities for daily enemies. Make new health types that have either communities to said status or special quirks like a highly upgraded shield that is completely immune to status used on hyper elite corpus units. Make raids which focus on thrall hordes but also contain a focus on mission completion, objectives, and boss fights that have literally hundreds of millions of health. Radiation also turns saryn into the a backstabbing bish which means say a defense mission has a 100% chance of radiation, she's avoided at all costs like kohra or ember. Rework some missions, which need updates, such as defection, capture, excavation, and more which don't have nearly as much impact on killing. or perhaps make one that doesn't focus on killing at all like spy. make these missions have good rewards on par of quality with ESO. These all impact her in different ways than smacking her with the nerf bat, instead silently pushing players away from Saryn.
   No I won't go through thousands of missions to gather and record data for you and you specifically. I've got other games/things I wanna play/do. I'm not the type of player who will go and gather 1000+ mission results because someone asks me to prove that any frame can be competitive against saryn. That's called being unreasonable and untrusting because in the end it's up to you whether you believe me or not. Even if you don't believe me that doesn't make me wrong, it just means you don't believe me.

   Scramba are fine. However nullifiers are unfair giant bubbles which hurt CC just as much as DPS playstyles but less so DPS because DPS frames actually kill the nullifier creating said bubble. They are a universal boon and whatever they were intended for they obviously hit all of our abilities and put a focus more on weapons which is, guess what, daaaamaaaage. Not only do they encourage damage but because you can't shoot into those bubbles it also pushes frames to tanks that survive such damage with arcanes and base stats like Inaros, Wukong, and Nidus while CC and support get shafted.
   I've also posted before about how nullifiers can be altered and changed to become fair. Some nullifiers can erase abilities but not bullets. some erase projectile powers but not nonprojectiles like cataclysm. I could go on but I'll simply generalize. Add conditions to color coded nullifiers for game fairness. Yet you seemingly skimmed over the fact that there are things deployed into the field which don't care about CC like sapping osprey traps.

   Onto CC immunity. Tell me, what enemies are immune to CC again??? Orb Mothers and Raknoids "posed as challenging" // Eidolons, "arcanes" // Vomvalyst, "Eidolon Helpers" // Nullifiers and Demo Units "tanky everyday content in important missions" // Capture Targets "quick relic runs" // Lich "kuva guns" // Thralls "challenging". // Plague star "easy reskinned content for repeat rewards" // Arbitration Drones "fk all". How many enemies in our IMPORTANT content have and apply CC immunity? Quite alot and infact you'll not only see these enemies daily but taking other bosses into account almost every day. Many of these enemies won't care about CC or debuffs either.
   Notice something? How many of these enemy areas do you see Saryn? No, you see Volt, Chroma, Mesa, Harrow, Revenant, Gauss, or others. She isn't perfect at all the content we care about and some players even say they don't see her all too often. The same goes for me, I don't usually see them.
   Support capabilities thrived preS3.0 but that's the past. Warframe continued changing over time and the first steps of CC falling in popularity were already there. What is harrow and trinity to healing return, desecrate, energizing dash, and more? Tell me if the game slowly oppressed CC and these important enemies are immune to both CC and debuffs? what's left? Damage and tanking. If damage is gone... well, you know what happenes if it's all not dealt with at once. Even if it is I've already said It'll be one messy launch.

   I have given a route, but I've left it open and flexible for DE and others to put their own spins and twists on it. Proposing a specific narrow route limits creativity and it'll most likely get ignored. my route is add content to the game which indirectly impact and silently pushes players away from content. Build content with representitives of their class LIKE the queen of ESO and the king of CC in mind. launch difficult content like suggested RAIDS PLEEEEASE. Yes those things, actual hard raids against a boss with hundreds of thousands of health and special abilities when you fight with 8 people, saryn will not be as viable there if it's built right. But guess what will be viable, CC and Support.
   Yours very well might be easier but it'll be less streamlined and sloppy and focus on regression instead of progression. Slowly adding content allows for feedback and refinement. Adding all of this at once overloads the community and means DE needs to fix all of these things at once leading to oversights and ignoring some bugs because they're deemed less important. It's also not vague, it's open and flexible to allow DE's teams to work and concept and create because they like doing that. If our ideas won't fit their world then suggest a model and let them mold that model to their vision so DE can't hide behind the "it doesn't fit out idea of what warframe is meant to me" mantra.

[Cubewano]

41 minutes ago, SpringRocker said:

Oh of course, what I meant is that the data itself seems off.

Going by the data it says that Ivara is around as common as Inaros. I can still count the amount of times I've even seen another Ivara while Inaros on the other hand is much more common.

Not saying you're wrong or the other guy is wrong, it just seems that the data that was provided to us is off a bit.

Oh, pretty sure it's just blanket usage across all content, or at least they never indicated anything further to it than that. Wouldn't be much reason to just show us partial usage charts when talking about overall usage, doesn't flatter them more or anything.  

Edited December 5, 2019 by Cubewano

[Radeon.]

8 hours ago, ChaoticEdge said:

that is not the problem in fact the reason why players leaving is because we are waiting for the update "again" as usually, veteran, average players, pro, half pro, and ect of ppl are leaving the game because they get the game finish with in 3 days because the quest is "limited" which the dev is still updating the railjack where it can be flyable to be in space but it isn't implanted yet for it doesn't mean it is meaningless because we do go back for the game even thou it changes.  It just people have to learn how to adapt when changes come but some people don't like changes for the frame they work so hard and whatever listed they work so hard get rechange a lot and it wouldn't matter on my list at least because it

yes I know some people can't go on the flow trying to adapt but sometime here and there for there away reason why changes for you have to look reason why the "down" side reason for back then we had Galatine the regular one was the God-like founder weapon during old melee 1.0 or whatever it is exactly at because during that time charge attack was King because 1 hit = instance kill depend on the build and you can kill every players with mega build that actually bs the battlefield, need take down vor with in 1 hit galatine was your prime to go, need kill the jackle with in 1 hit, galatine will cut down the legs and finish it with 1 blow, need kill that dushbag bosses galatine is your bro to go with.  That why changes need to be made for there is was a good changes about it and self reason why it change to be channel energy then go back again better version of strong attack but more of 1.5 version for good and reasonable uses which the melee is whole example sounded like good and bad changes but mainly it was bad changes for ppl who is going though process of melee build because that was our captain ship right there for it supported ppl who love or being the weeb swordsmen have it hard like thick as rock.   At the time being yes there been up and down about these things but shouldn't revolt any reason to blame them for any occasions because there were lots nerf for it should be asking the question yourself "have we gone too much the level that break the game?" for yes we do attended break the game whole lot and massive amount of level that why the Dev had to nerf here and there because of either players abuse way too much power like the mooncatcher for yes there was massive abuse because thanks to the arcane it basically you made it another arca cannon as well there is reason why there is a nerf.  When reason things are what needed to be nerf or either to be or had to be nerf is because either you can blame ppl of the request of nerfing weapons and frame or ppl abuse power that suck the fun out of, for this isn't my problem basically we create problems that developed over time as to be we are drunk in power but never cared the responsibility any measure for we keep on building bricks by bricks for these dev making a fort to rule over but I don't think that how it should work, instead building a fort as violent nation but should of been fair equal trade like a merchant for it is wise to listen why then reevaluate things before we put a price on the nerf to be reasonable to be that type of cost.

you finish getting all kuva weapons and finding the most op melees in three days? comon bro. Waiting for new update can always be the reason but not this time. The last update and the upcoming ones could be quite important for this game but it seems not so satisfactory. All players are willing to adapt. But adapting just because it's what DE want? That's BS. 

Two years ago when eidolon came and the only weapon we could use is opticor they buffed snippers which made the hunting easier. And we were happy to stop using opticor and pick up lanka/vectis.

Now more enemies come with new power. And what DE have done?  They just nerfed almost all of the useful weapons (apparently frames on the way) and compensate negliable riven disposition on some totally useless weapons. And you are still saying 'We must be willing to adapt' ?

I hope when DE comes to the idea that 'fighting hand-to-hand is coooool so let's give up all weapons', you can still hold that opinion.

Edited December 5, 2019 by Tenma.Gabriel

[MageSkeleton]

HOW TO FIX SARYN:

Saryn's 1 spreads spores to targeted enemy, when the infected enemy dies the spores spreads to nearby enemies that can be infected based on half Saryn's range.

Saryn's 4: No longer makes a "poison nova" around saryn, however, enemies infected with saryn's spores explode and cause a poison nova around them. Explosion based on Saryn's range, poison nova based on half saryn's range.

[SneakyErvin]

11 hours ago, (XB1)Almighty Deity said:

That's not why it got nerfed, and it's nowhere near the highest DPS secondary. Not even close. It's because a bunch of MR27s ran around with it on their hip. That's literally why. Don't believe me? Listen to the streams and look at the reports. It wasn't average DPS, kills, or active wielding time. Just time it was there on your frame, regardless of use.

Nekros had his synergy broken with Hydroid right up until the community said no. I very little doubt they'll try again later. He's been nerfed before by reducing his max scaling on desecrate. No one other than booty pirate can loot better than him.

Inaros is right up there with Saryn in terms of use. Regardless of kit(most you mentioned aren't used, either). You're wrong on the tank factor. He's got the highest eHP of any frame. Second is Valkyr, and 3rd is Nidus. Speaking of you forgot the only one that literally can't die if used correctly.

Saryn isn't OP nor does she "remove gameplay from others". It's comments like this that make me wonder how many play any games mode past 20 minutes or at all. Claiming because miasma is AoE that she's OP is hilarious considering out of the 3 I've played with today(in close to 30 matches mind you), none have done more damage than my general setup cc mag. Don't tell me that mag is OP now too.

People ran around with it "on their hip" for a reason, because it was an OP gun and the nerf toned it down. It is still a good gun that insta gibs anything you may need to insta gib at slightly longer range than melee. Whoever tries to still live in denial about the power of Catchmoon needs to get a reality check.

And Nekros is fine now. He isnt overused, he serves two distinct purposes aswell as being possible to dabble with as a tank. What exactly should they nerf? I mean he isnt overused, he has no OP abilities or anything like that. So the whole idea that he'll get nerfed is illogical.

EHP matters very little in the content they balance around. All the other frames survive the same as Inaros in that content because none of them can get 1HKed there. And I'm talking hour long arbitrations, including disruption. And survival is the only thing sandman has going for him, so there is no reason to nerf him. I can see a nerf coming to him if they decide to rework his kit and rebalance his health at the same time. I didnt forget Nidus since he is pretty common while the others are often overlooked.

Saryn is OP because she has massive range and no actual need to stack strength in order to wipe out full maps. She has zero trouble with uptime on everything. It is also hilarious that you say she doesnt remove gameplay from others. It is one of the biggest issues with her atm, that she makes everything a ride along instead of an actual missions. And that goes on far up in the levels where killing is the need. In ESO I understand it because of how poorly designed efficiency is in there. When you go there you expect a Saryn, but you also have 3 other frames to pick from that helps alot in there to spread spores. But that is kinda the only content where she isnt a massively intrusive frame. Also, anecdotal evidence from some runs isnt really someting to use as evidence, facts or reasoning. A good frame in bad hands easily turns into a bad frame, that is really all that it shows.

[Hyohakusha]

I love how people just completely ignore that post from Pablo saying that he talks about all kinds of random s--- in his streams and that he's not working on a Saryn nerf. What should be more concerning is that anyone at DE had the idea that Ember was going to become a go-to Onslaught frame. You would need to spam her 4 to make that happen. Simaris slaps a cooldown on any ability that you use too frequently in Onslaught. That's a mechanic that was programmed into Onslaught. By the people at DE who made Onslaught.



At least it's amusing to watch everyone completely miss the point and misinterpret things.

[ChaoticEdge]

5 minutes ago, Tenma.Gabriel said:

you finish getting all kuva weapons and finding the most op melees in three days? comon bro. Waiting for new update can always be the reason but not this time. The last update and the upcoming ones could be quite important for this game but it seems not so satisfactory. All players are willing to adapt. But adapting just because it's what DE want? That's BS. 

that determind on RNG and no some ppl get bored out of their mind because well let say if you take a pistol M9 the most reliable pistol used, and then you see golden pistol version of it for yes I understand style but it is the same result as real gun but larger rounds if you get an AK-47, sure they both hit different because just shear power it doesn't mean both them cannot kill which make commonly the same as being bored which yes you success killing things it just gets boring.

Usually adapting what DE wanted isn't what DE wanted because due of "money progression" they wanted the game last long period of time like every youtuber who review reason why there is no end game is because DE don't attend make it as end game that way for they wanted make it longer, more where the people wanted in a ways which they have director who ask and quick thinking on his judgement that who has best idea which yes the director has reason to get involved with dev's work and the director plan things out here and there what the game should be easy or shouldn't be easy which it is in mediocre level, for the game hides being strong because these frames show all the cool moves and stuff but really it is all going in acting weak a bit which DE is just throwing some random idea that they could bunker up while it mush smash  then throwing into the blender and hopefully it turns good.  At the time being the dev are trying to joy to the players but when the players are really hitting the bottom of the barrel basically the dev try make sure there is more in the barrel that why we got all these mush smash chaos everywhere in the game for lore is unknown, stories seem incomplete and so on so because keep this in mind they are human and they aren't bots who can do manual works which there is always people's events real world time from future and present which all of us couldn't determined where the ball spin while moving and being hit really fast.  The dev is trying but sometime there is director wanted make sure the company has more money in their pocket because they know they are going owe lots company they try to pay back for them and also try get vacation for the dev and other who work in DE which everyone needed vacation for 1 day.  Don't expect try god-like result because people are perfection to complete a task right away.

[Kaotyke]

10 minutes ago, Hyohakusha said:

I love how people just completely ignore that post from Pablo saying that he talks about all kinds of random s--- in his streams and that he's not working on a Saryn nerf. What should be more concerning is that anyone at DE had the idea that Ember was going to become a go-to Onslaught frame. You would need to spam her 4 to make that happen. Simaris slaps a cooldown on any ability that you use too frequently in Onslaught. That's a mechanic that was programmed into Onslaught. By the people at DE who made Onslaught.



At least it's amusing to watch everyone completely miss the point and misinterpret things.

But then they focus on the "atm".

And go straight to the "They are thinking on it".

Like, holy . Its grasping at straws at the finest. I can say "I'm not planning to cut my hair atm", "We are not planning on drinking anything this weekend atm", "I'm not planning to sleep for the next 2 minutes atm".

Everyone at DE has a track record of never saying NEVER aside from the Founder items. For Pablo, it was the reasonable choice aside from saying "We wont touch her ever", bbbuuuutttt.... if he did that people would take it as one of those oh so great must not be broken promisses and should it ever come to pass DE are the scum they have been calling them. But, by saying "atm", he left it open to something that is not set in stone but has no plans right now, so OF COURSE people will jump down his throat for this "offense". Damned if you do, damned if you dont. And sadly he cant just tell people to f*ck off with their misconceptions because then he will be labled "scum". I mean, some bastard on twitter already said that he should be fired for hsi remark.

The annomity the Internet gives can bring the wrost in people. Nothing new there, they would be singing a very different tone if they were face to face with the person they were bad mouthing.

[(XBOX)Almighty Deity]

36 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

People ran around with it "on their hip" for a reason, because it was an OP gun and the nerf toned it down. It is still a good gun that insta gibs anything you may need to insta gib at slightly longer range than melee. Whoever tries to still live in denial about the power of Catchmoon needs to get a reality check.

And Nekros is fine now. He isnt overused, he serves two distinct purposes aswell as being possible to dabble with as a tank. What exactly should they nerf? I mean he isnt overused, he has no OP abilities or anything like that. So the whole idea that he'll get nerfed is illogical.

EHP matters very little in the content they balance around. All the other frames survive the same as Inaros in that content because none of them can get 1HKed there. And I'm talking hour long arbitrations, including disruption. And survival is the only thing sandman has going for him, so there is no reason to nerf him. I can see a nerf coming to him if they decide to rework his kit and rebalance his health at the same time. I didnt forget Nidus since he is pretty common while the others are often overlooked.

Saryn is OP because she has massive range and no actual need to stack strength in order to wipe out full maps. She has zero trouble with uptime on everything. It is also hilarious that you say she doesnt remove gameplay from others. It is one of the biggest issues with her atm, that she makes everything a ride along instead of an actual missions. And that goes on far up in the levels where killing is the need. In ESO I understand it because of how poorly designed efficiency is in there. When you go there you expect a Saryn, but you also have 3 other frames to pick from that helps alot in there to spread spores. But that is kinda the only content where she isnt a massively intrusive frame. Also, anecdotal evidence from some runs isnt really someting to use as evidence, facts or reasoning. A good frame in bad hands easily turns into a bad frame, that is really all that it shows.

Like I said, wasn't even close to top 5 secondaries for DPS, the counts were skewed, and you refuse to cover this at all, instead reverting to your typical song and dance you've used in other threads. It isn't exactly OP on your hip, not in use, is it?

DE was still going to nerf nekros. Regardless as to your opinion that was a thing up until cooler heads prevailed. He's only used as a farm frame now so please define "fine now". I don't get how you'll deny they literally set out to nerf him, but hey, it's illogical to believe they'd ever nerf him!

EHP being the fundamental measurement of a tank mattering very little towards a tank frame or a frame being OP! Great, that's another opinion presented as fact that's easily refuted by the stats. I don't care if you think they're all equal because they can't get 1 hit. Inaros literally has 2x the eHP of the next frame. This is why he's the 3rd most used.

At this point it's fairly obvious you're not bringing anything new to the table. You're going to simply stated "massive range and damage" when hardly anyone plays her outside of ESO or SO and there's numerous checks against her, especially in the new content. Oh well. But hey, just claim they're bad builds, as if MR25s don't have have access to corrupted mods or a whopping 1 forma!

[BlindStalker]

3 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

Oh of course, what I meant is that the data itself seems off.

Going by the data it says that Ivara is around as common as Inaros. I can still count the amount of times I've even seen another Ivara while Inaros on the other hand is much more common.

Not saying you're wrong or the other guy is wrong, it just seems that the data that was provided to us is off a bit.

Hey SpringRocker.

The chart that Azreal mentioned in their post is from a data sample set that DE collected during two weeks in August of 2018 (August 8-15, 2018) for the PC platform users only (that chart was made by Airwolfen when DE gave the raw numbers of the graph in a google sheet back in 2018). It's out of date since the usage numbers have moved around and a few new warframes were introduced since then.

The graph presented in Cubewano's post is the most recent data sampling that DE has done, shown from devstream #133 as (I can't remember what the time frame was for when Rebecca said this sampling was collected. I think it was PC users only again, when they sampled it. But it's fairly recent sampling, because it has 28 columns of data which indicates it goes up to MR28. So that's a good ballpark of how recent it was sampled). Granted, the 2019 graph is really not that helpful because it doesn't give us raw numbers to actually read from (it's really only good for showing on a devstream just for "eye-balling" stuff). The colours also might be faded on the main graph compared to their colour legends, so it might be a bit hard to fully determine where everybody is (MS paint colour picker couldn't quite match the colour legends to the colours on the main graph itself). You might need the original 2018 graph to extrapolate from there, a "rough idea" of where everybody sits (and include new frames as well). (When DE released the original 2018 graph, they also released the raw numbers that went with the graph so other players were able to make much more coherent and readable data stats from 2018. Sadly, DE did not release raw usage stat numbers this time, just the graph again).

Me and the two other Ivaraphile mains speculated that Ivara is actually that blue strip in the lower half of the columns. Just below Ivara, should be Inaros (that supposed vibrant pink one). That's where Inaros sat last time in the 2018 graph version. So in comparison (for 2019), Inaros' usage stats are significantly higher than Ivara's by a fairly wide margin. Note, in the original 2018 graph, the Warframes were listed in reverse alphabetical order from top to bottom (i.e Zephyr's colour was at the top, Ash was at the bottom). Supposedly, it's the same order for the 2019 graph version (along with the new frames inserted in). That's our "rough eyeball" speculation of Ivara's usage stats overall.

Edited December 5, 2019 by BlindStalker

[Violet_Xe]

1 hour ago, Hyohakusha said:

I love how people just completely ignore that post from Pablo saying that he talks about all kinds of random s--- in his streams and that he's not working on a Saryn nerf.

   Well yeah we all realize he said that. Comments were put on tac's video about that and msgs here so were not oblivious to that.... I hope. But this is a discussion and it can be pretty much boiled down to "Is saryn good in her current state or not". Because Pablo talked/joked about it attention was brought to it making it a topic players could discuss. In reality we could've made a thread like this for literally any other frame but the publicity that this joke got made this thead a centralized point of feedback on saryn's current state of various opinions. This is good to archive because it's feedback DE can come back to later IF they ever decide to make a warframe like saryn or rework/tweak saryn. Info is Info.

[TioMegaManX]

On 2019-12-02 at 9:44 PM, --C--Nehra said:

Whatever.... I put 2 umbral forma on her, and now I am mad at myself and at Pablo too for giving me this worry! XD, now I wouldn't even place my next umrbal forma on Inaros Prime when he drops, because apparently people are venting at him for being all tanky and naught else too over at forums.

I am more upset about the general base health on frames being so poor considering everything past Lv50 can kill you in a few shots, more so when survivability mods only scale from Lv1 base health and shields and not total (as in, fully ranked frames).

[Chicken-Biryani]

4 minutes ago, VanFanel1980mx said:

I am more upset about the general base health on frames being so poor considering everything past Lv50 can kill you in a few shots, more so when survivability mods only scale from Lv1 base health and shields and not total (as in, fully ranked frames).

Yeah a lot of stuff in game needs to be reworked. 

[SolarDwagon]

Are people really using the Catchmoon "nerf" to justify not nerfing anything else? Catchmoon was an OP piece of [redacted] and is still top of top tier. If that's the best argument to make you got nothing.

 

[844448]

2 hours ago, VanFanel1980mx said:

I am more upset about the general base health on frames being so poor considering everything past Lv50 can kill you in a few shots, more so when survivability mods only scale from Lv1 base health and shields and not total (as in, fully ranked frames).

Not sure what your build is but my Nyx is able to take more than a few shots before going down

[844448]

Boy, this thread surely has derailed pretty bad

Calm down people, there's no proof there's any nerf on saryn coming yet.

I'm just putting my opinion on saryn where spores is OP for being able to climb really high here

[TioMegaManX]

6 minutes ago, 844448 said:

Not sure what your build is but my Nyx is able to take more than a few shots before going down

Any build, I wouldn't care if a proper scaling would make tank frames tankier but all frames need their final HP to be higher than it is right now, a measly 300/300 is just stupid considering the game is not the same style it used to be.

[kwlingo]

1 hour ago, SolarDwagon said:

Catchmoon was an OP piece of [redacted] and is still top of top tier.

 

50% now 25% from last I heard and might be even lower today. DE got what they wanted.

6 minutes ago, 844448 said:

 there's no proof there's any nerf on saryn coming yet.

Key work "yet"

[844448]

1 minute ago, VanFanel1980mx said:

Any build, I wouldn't care if a proper scaling would make tank frames tankier but all frames need their final HP to be higher than it is right now, a measly 300/300 is just stupid considering the game is not the same style it used to be.

Perhaps this is where I can say about people wanting a distinct class system. Didn't people want endgame that requires teamwork? No teamwork needed if everyone can take hits and deal damage so tanks be tanks, squishy casters stay on back line and cast

[844448]

1 minute ago, kwlingo said:

50% now 25% from last I heard and might be even lower today. DE got what they wanted.

Key work "yet"

I can argue the only broken thing from saryn is her spores. Put the cap down to 1k or 2k and she won't nuke things out like now

[TioMegaManX]

1 minute ago, 844448 said:

Perhaps this is where I can say about people wanting a distinct class system. Didn't people want endgame that requires teamwork? No teamwork needed if everyone can take hits and deal damage so tanks be tanks, squishy casters stay on back line and cast

Considering the devs want to avoid "taking away player choice" and still end up enforcing a certain meta because only a handful of frames can take so much punishment in high level missions (and I say High end like murmur farm and final sortie level) is just lacking coherence, I know we will always have power creep because that's how they make money but not everyone likes to play the game the same way others to, some players want to play their less beefy frames and not die to a sneeze they didn't even see where it came from, Adaptation is quite the band-aid mod until you realize taking two or three 500 dmg shots will only give you three stacks of resistance with less than 600 eHP which is just insulting, we still have self-damage for no good reason and yet DE keeps adding more useless code like Cautious Shot and patching out some frames just because people played around self-damage in a way they didn't want to (Trinity for example).

[(PSN)The1stAzrael]

7 hours ago, Cubewano said:

I believe they are talking about this mess of a chart -

That came out last Devstream showing the usage rate frames across mrs

DE provides charts for these kinds of things from time to time, I believe the one Azrael posted is from a devstream just like the one I've supplied above. 

Wow...I can barely read that chart. I'm typically very good at discerning different shades of color but Mesa and Gauss' bars are practically identical. Mirage Prime looks like Inaros, Frost looks like Wukong Prime, etc. Too bad they didn't release the raw numbers this time as well, it would've made it much easier to determine each frames standing in popularity.

[SneakyErvin]

8 hours ago, (XB1)Almighty Deity said:

Like I said, wasn't even close to top 5 secondaries for DPS, the counts were skewed, and you refuse to cover this at all, instead reverting to your typical song and dance you've used in other threads. It isn't exactly OP on your hip, not in use, is it?

DE was still going to nerf nekros. Regardless as to your opinion that was a thing up until cooler heads prevailed. He's only used as a farm frame now so please define "fine now". I don't get how you'll deny they literally set out to nerf him, but hey, it's illogical to believe they'd ever nerf him!

EHP being the fundamental measurement of a tank mattering very little towards a tank frame or a frame being OP! Great, that's another opinion presented as fact that's easily refuted by the stats. I don't care if you think they're all equal because they can't get 1 hit. Inaros literally has 2x the eHP of the next frame. This is why he's the 3rd most used.

At this point it's fairly obvious you're not bringing anything new to the table. You're going to simply stated "massive range and damage" when hardly anyone plays her outside of ESO or SO and there's numerous checks against her, especially in the new content. Oh well. But hey, just claim they're bad builds, as if MR25s don't have have access to corrupted mods or a whopping 1 forma!

I'm sure it wasnt the top DPS, but no other secondary (and few primaries) had the shear damage per shot and AoE utility of a catchmoon. It was a straight upgrade to the Arca Plasmor and in a secondary slot. So you could still use the most damaging primary and catchmoon with zero drawbacks. Plus it was crit based. DPS really doesnt matter when everything dies to 1 shot. DPS really only matters when you get into places where you need sustained damage. The user percentage on this weapon doesnt lie because the usage was just that much higher to a point where it was silly. The usage was several hundred percent above the runner up and that is because it was just that good. It is still a damn good secondary and I doubt I'll ever use something else.

No, they were going to nerf loot frames across the board where nekros was the one impacted the least since you could still stack him in groups with auto-gore frames like Frost for roughly the same end result as a Hydroid/Nekros group mix. As for right now, he is used for more things than just loot, like being a reliable survival frame and tank in general.

It does matter very little until you get to the point where you need more EHP. No content that the game is balanced around hit the point where Inaros' extra EHP matter. The point where it matters is content where he lacks efficiency in other needed things. Regarding Inaros being the third most used, well obviously since he is a simple frame and a crutch people can lean on when they dont want to actually get into the game mechanics and learn what they actually need. I personally wouldnt mind if his HP got reduced if it ment he'd get an interesting and useful kit. Currently all he can do is soak up damage, he brings very little to group play.

ESO should not be a reason to keep a frame broken. If ESO requires things like Saryn then the game mode should obviously change to cater to more than a handful of frames on the whole roster instead of being balanced around those few frames. Balancing around a specific few frames is bad design and something that has been stressed by the community from the release of SO and ESO. And I'm not talking bad builds, I'm talking bad players as a whole. People also do play her alot outside of ESO/SO. Defense, interception and survival are popular places for her aswell and I run into her often in those. Defense turns into watching paint dry, though slightly worse, interception the same mostly since the nodes are packed too tight on most maps. In survival you just wanna pull the trigger on the Saryn, because not only is it like watching paint dry, the paint is also spreading your life supports over an area of 50m+, inside side rooms, other small spaces and across several elevations where you may not actually find it. And in those situations she also tends to split up the group and kill efficiency. She is a very intrucive frame and sadly ESO is designed around her, turning it into a flawed and unfun game mode.

Change Saryn, change ESO and change the other few AoE no LoS frames. It would make most parts of the game far more enjoyable.

[(XBOX)Almighty Deity]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

 

It wasn't even in the top 10 in terms of DPS, but nothing. Most of the others that beat it were better SPECIFICALLY because they dealt with mobs better. Hate to tell you but the arca isn't that good... It's a mob killer too. Woo. Obsession with wide-arching non-focused damage guns is duly noted. User percentage and power have absolutely nothing to do with each other, but nice attempt to sneak that in. Moving on. 

The only frame that would be used then would be hydroid because he has +100%. Khora has decent cc and utility, but nekros has very little value outside of his farming ability, effectively making the nerf disproportionately affect him in multiple ways. He's considered bad for tanking and is rarely used other than for farming, so no, you're wrong.

It really doesn't matter what you're going to argue about eHP, it's not going to be accurate, just like your statements about damage. Inaros is exclusively used simply because of his disgusting eHP and that's it. He's a lazy frame for lazy people. Literally every other tank requires some abilities to tank except him. The fractally wrong thing you've said about him especially is that it's mainly high MRs using it. It's no crutch or a training frame. He's literally a lazy frame. No abilities required. It's not hard to understand, is it? You're seriously going to argue with me on this of all things?

Nope on Saryn and meh on ESO. Leave it to rot. Saryn is fine. Her kit works well together and she kills. Rather have a powerful frame than a frame that can't do anything like she used to be. If you want to disagree I really don't care at this point. It's clear you're not seeing the same picture or really any at all it seems.

Edited December 5, 2019 by (XB1)Almighty Deity

[tzadquiel]

13 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

Oh of course, what I meant is that the data itself seems off.

Going by the data it says that Ivara is around as common as Inaros. I can still count the amount of times I've even seen another Ivara while Inaros on the other hand is much more common.

Not saying you're wrong or the other guy is wrong, it just seems that the data that was provided to us is off a bit.

ivara is a stealth frame. best way to play stealth is solo, numptie.