Regarding Pablo's recent stream about saryn

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

13 hours ago, (NSW)Sniperfox47 said:

 

Given the nature of what this chart is attempting to convey, they should have added prime+non-prime into a single color/category.  The difference between the two is negligible, and as it is, this chart is just visual diarrhea.

 

[BRZZAFK]

11小时前 , (NSW)Sniperfox47 说:

No game will ever be perfectly balanced. In CS go you'll always have your AWPs and your Scouts that see higher usage, on DotA you'll always have your Meta heroes, in Destiny you've got Hunter which is a more popular than others.

No game will have balanced usage because people have preferences and because there will *always* be a META that people gravitate towards.

And if that's Inaros then PC players pick totally different frames than console because I have seen as many Inaros players in my time on Switch as I have Zephyr players (that is to say not a lot) and none of them low MR because of the quest he's behind.

About the only place I see him consistently is arbitrations and that's because, like Saryn and ESO, that's a game mode that caters to the specific skill set he has (alongside some other frames like Wukong, Rhino, Chroma, etc.)

And for the record something being low skill is not a bad thing. Warframe is a PVE game where the challenge is what you make it. If you find Inaros boring to play, play something more fun. I personally find Titania modded with a crud-ton of bullet jump mods to be a blast to play so she's the frame I use for spy missions. Is she the easiest frame to play for them? No, I need to actually think about the vaults, but I have a lot more fun with her. For players who are less skilled it's okay to have an option like Ivara/Loki/Limbo that enables them to complete the mission. It doesn't take anything away from you for them to be able to have fun too.

It's true that no perfect balance.but it's mater of degree. while people are complin about top dps do 15% more damage than the low tier dps in world of warcraft. we stand up for a frame who can clear room by pressing 3 buttons and have 10 time more use rate than unpopuar frame in warframe.

People dont just choose only by preferences specially for MR27 veteran. If a warframe have high use rate it's most likely because they can fit in and doing great in numerous game mode. people keep saying saryn is the only frame can do ESO and only good at ESO but that's both not true. saryn is good at game mode required to kill in general. Yes maybe she cant compete Mesa in open field,but she still better than most of dps in open field and open field not even a common thing in warframe level design.

Take for example like Excalibar. As a dps frame what kind of game mode will Excalibar outclass saryn?  None of then. Best way is not chose him at all. And it's not the problem only occur on Excalibar. It's a problam for all exalted weapons warframe. they dont good at killing a lot because nuker do it  better. they dont good at killing boss or sigle strong enemey because a buff frame with op weapon like Rhino, Chroma can do it better. they dont do good cc or support so basically a joke.

It's a bad idea that player who want challenge have to use poorly design frame and have no rewarde to doing so. it's basically saying this game have nothing to offer just create your own game or go play another game. It's a bad excuse for poorly balanced game.

Edited December 10, 2019 by BRZZAFK

[(NSW)Sniperfox47]

3 hours ago, BRZZAFK said:

It's true that no perfect balance.but it's mater of degree. while people are complin about top dps do 15% more damage than the low tier dps in world of warcraft. we stand up for a frame who can clear room by pressing 3 buttons and have 10 time more use rate than unpopuar frame in warframe.

Yeah and you're talking two very different games.

One of which is based around building robust parties and the gameplay loop requires people to fulfill specific game roles. It's also a game about powerlessness and overcoming it, which each threat you overcome requiring you to grow more and more to defeat it.

The other game is a game about isolation in solo or small co-op missions, with the gameplay loop being more about personal satisfaction than a mechanical goal. It's a game of empowerment where rather than presenting you harder and harder enemies to overcome, the progression is instead about becoming more and more overpowered so you can complete the same tasks easier and faster.

One game lives and dies by balance and ensuring that at least some people take specific roles, the other is about providing you with options of different ways to feel badass.

Warframe has far less reason to be balanced. Not all games need to be.

3 hours ago, BRZZAFK said:

People dont just choose only by preferences specially for MR27 veteran. If a warframe have high use rate it's most likely because they can fit in and doing great in numerous game mode. people keep saying saryn is the only frame can do ESO and only good at ESO but that's both not true. saryn is good at game mode required to kill in general. Yes maybe she cant compete Mesa in open field,but she still better than most of dps in open field and open field not even a common thing in warframe level design.

This part makes me question if you've seriously played Saryn in other game modes. Unless she's modded to the 9s, she's pretty mediocre, and if you mod a frame to hell and back it's going to be good regardless except in a few specific game modes that veterans spend a lot of their time in (namely ESO, Arbitrations, and Eidolons).

You either mod saryn for tanking, in which case she's an okayish tank, or you mod her for plague in which case she's really good at ESO and mopping low level mobs (something practically every frame is good at). In mid-high level missions even an ideally modded saryn has a lower clear rate than many other frames because unlike in ESO you don't constantly have lots of high level mobs rushing at you so most of her damage decays away. 

3 hours ago, BRZZAFK said:

Take for example like Excalibar. As a dps frame what kind of game mode will Excalibar outclass saryn?  None of then. Best way is not chose him at all. And it's not the problem only occur on Excalibar. It's a problam for all exalted weapons warframe. they dont good at killing a lot because nuker do it  better. they dont good at killing boss or sigle strong enemey because a buff frame with op weapon like Rhino, Chroma can do it better. they dont do good cc or support so basically a joke.

Are you kidding me? Excalibur can 1HKO most bosses with his exalted weapon... and can clear a lot of defense missions as fast or faster than Saryn can... He's one of the few other frames who's viable for 8 wave solo ESO, although he can't do it with any kind of consistency like Saryn can because he gets screwed over by walls. Excalibur's an absolute beast.

It's not that any of these lesser used frames are any less viable for this content. They're completely viable. Even Nyx, the posterchild of terrible and useless frames, can pretty trivially take care of 90% of the starchart with no weapons if you have her modded half-decent.

People use frames because they want to feel like a badass. Because they want to see big numbers, because they want to see waves of enemies falling. That's literally what the progression system in this game is about.Why is the reaper prime now Meta? Does anybody need 9 billion red crits? Nope. But people still want it because it feels baller AF even if it's totally pointless.

The lesser used frames are lesser used because they don't fall strictly into this power fantasy. Which is fine. They don't need to. They're still there because they offer a different experience and different strokes for different folks.

Literally the only exceptions to this are 3 specific pieces of content: Solo ESO, Superbosses (Eidolons and Orb Mothers), and Arbitrations, all of which require fairly specific builds to accomplish in a decent way and only one of those are most frames good at.

3 hours ago, BRZZAFK said:

It's a bad idea that player who want challenge have to use poorly design frame and have no rewarde to doing so. it's basically saying this game have nothing to offer just create your own game or go play another game. It's a bad excuse for poorly balanced game.

How is that a bad idea? This games motif has never been about challenge. Since literally day 1 and running through grineer swinging your Skana, it's been about Empowerment. It's been about making you feel like a powerful badass. Making you feel unstoppable. That feeling is what this game has to offer.

If you've been playing this game for so long that it's lost that spark for you, im sorry. But that's what this game has been since day 1 and as much as DE may try to add in challenge, they can't get away from the game's fundamental motif.

And yes, like any other game whos motif is that empowerment to grow stronger and do anything you want, games like Minecraft and the original few Assassin's Creed games, the only way you're going to find a challenge is if you make one for yourself. You make constraints and your reward is proving to yourself that you can overcome those constraints.

------

You're never going to have a balanced uniform challenge based game design for warframe because that's fundamentally not what Warframe is about. If you want that, I can recommend you plenty of other games to play, but Warframe is about providing choices of ways to engage with a sensation of empowerment. That's the reward, and because of how human taste works you can never "balance" a sense of power.

[BRZZAFK]

6小时前 , (NSW)Sniperfox47 说:

Warframe has far less reason to be balanced. Not all games need to be.

I dont want to talk about how the game should be in here but i fail to see how does that make it's ok to throw balanced out of window.

6小时前 , (NSW)Sniperfox47 说:

You either mod saryn for tanking, in which case she's an okayish tank, or you mod her for plague in which case she's really good at ESO and mopping low level mobs (something practically every frame is good at). In mid-high level missions even an ideally modded saryn has a lower clear rate than many other frames because unlike in ESO you don't constantly have lots of high level mobs rushing at you so most of her damage decays away. 

You can always find high level mobs in sortie, kuva lich and Arbitrations or maybe future update. the main reason they think saryn should be nerf is bacause of she doing too great on killing them.

6小时前 , (NSW)Sniperfox47 说:

Are you kidding me? Excalibur can 1HKO most bosses with his exalted weapon... and can clear a lot of defense missions as fast or faster than Saryn can... He's one of the few other frames who's viable for 8 wave solo ESO, although he can't do it with any kind of consistency like Saryn can because he gets screwed over by walls. Excalibur's an absolute beast.

when i said bosses i mean Eidolons,Orb Mothers,wolf,kuva lich. these are new bosses and none of them are qualify what you say. Excalibur doing defense missions? you mean like under level20 with Radial Javelin? if that's the case you can use rhino or limbo. they are better. if you mean 20-60level. then gara does better job. I can name numerous frame can do 8 wave ESO Excalibur not one of then. at least not consistenly, but that's not the point. If you can do it with Exalted Blade then you can do it with any frame with decent melee weapon. 

6小时前 , (NSW)Sniperfox47 说:

Literally the only exceptions to this are 3 specific pieces of content: Solo ESO, Superbosses (Eidolons and Orb Mothers), and Arbitrations, all of which require fairly specific builds to accomplish in a decent way and only one of those are most frames good at.

Clearly we have very diffrent play style.3 specific pieces of content plus kuva lich is basically all i doing those days. so that's why i disagree with you on the balance issue

6小时前 , (NSW)Sniperfox47 说:

You're never going to have a balanced uniform challenge based game design for warframe because that's fundamentally not what Warframe is about. If you want that, I can recommend you plenty of other games to play, but Warframe is about providing choices of ways to engage with a sensation of empowerment. That's the reward, and because of how human taste works you can never "balance" a sense of power.

So you saying we have to create underpower frame to make other frame feel powerful? Why not let every warframe feel badass and equally useful? if game is unbalance as hell that is opposite of providing choices. every one want to feel like badass and there only 10 frames are badass? Why not make it 42? 

Edited December 10, 2019 by BRZZAFK

[Violet_Xe]

On 2019-12-08 at 4:03 PM, Cubewano said:

My points in order follow your points in order, it should be easy to keep track of. *Just saying it might be a better way for others to keep track of the conversation. It's standard in writing to mention what you're talking about. If I don't keep restating what were talking about then people will be lost unless they read the entirety of our argument. Just try it please? I constantly find myself going back to check what I'm saying because you keep saying IT.

1. so you've said it, just not expressly here in response to this request, despite it supposedly being against the rules, and i'm going to assume won't restate it despite clearly nothing happening from it being said here, and this is just convoluted. i give, if you won't explain directly i'll just take it as false/wrong at this point, i'm not here for mental gymnastics. 
2. it's not, but they shouldn't be doing it on the premise of preserving a small number of imbalanced frames, otherwise they'll be going back soon enough again. 
3. so long as the power she exerts can cause a negative impact on design aspects of the game she will remain an issue no matter how many loops you try to hop through to distort that reality. again explain why its okay for her to invalidate engagement in co-op, or otherwise you have no point. 
4. You failed to show it as a particular enemy to even Limbo because you didn't present full circumstances, but that's still off topic and no need to carry further. On topic, she is countered to effectively the same level of effect as CC frames, as explained numerous times, what keeps her over the top like any other nuke is the damage numbers and range of said damage being so overwhelming alternative routes remain unnecessary/undesired. lowering nukes lowers that disparity. 
5. k
6. Direct or Indirect it's still power changes, I don't care for the semantics and in the long haul I don't think anyone does, what ends up there is what ends up there. And for Saryn, either way she is being made weaker, your method just seems so unnecessary clogged with bandaids to her issues that would only splinter out to affect other things, and why you think that ideal I still do not understand. 
7. It does not if you understand the context of the conversation, which I would hope you would since I assume you have been fully reading my responses before responding. otherwise, they're all recorded to revisit. 
8. Non-point since you already agreed it isn't feasible to do that practice on a frame by frame basis. 
9. So it doesn't factor in solo play then after all?
10. We're talking the entire structure to make whatever dream state you keep piping about.
11. And I explained how patently false that is as proven by the games own history, which is about as objective as one can get on game design impacts. 
12.  The duplicate responses, you removed them from the initial post after I pointed them out. 
13. She was not forged for ESO, in fact ESO didn't even exist when her rework was worked on, as stated by Pablo the creator of said rework. It also should be known because it prompted this entire topic, that Pablo doesn't approve of how she interacts with ESO even. No she was not remotely made with the intent for her level of dominance. She was also reworked like what, twice after her release almost immediately? It's very explicit her impact wasn't what they wanted it to be. In regards to why it takes so long for them to change her again? Only people internal to the company would know. It could be anything, from just hesitance to deal with how toxic some of the community gets over nerfs, to being occupied with other projects, to just not being sure what direction to go next with the frame if they change it. 
14. You haven't explained how they'd be reworked, or what designs for new missions. 
15. My idea is to rebalance Saryn to a more even playfield with most of the game, and repeat the cycle with the most notable overperformers until we have a more consistent state of balance for the game, which is what the game always should have done, and then from there life gets easier since DE only have to deal with more minute balancing changes. The biggest issue with DE's balance is that they let it slip so far without trying to keep things in line or even set a line, and that's what has lead to this whole mess of what is and isn't viable. Stabilizing things works, that's what made the melee rework go over so well, even if the highest performers had to get trimmed to make it work. Also seeing as we only have like 3 or 4 explicit over performers, and they only need tuning not full redesigns, no that would not take a long time to do. It certainly wouldn't even take a fraction as long as redesigning enemy encounters, creating new missions types, and rebalancing existing missions types, then dealing with all the weapon and frame rebalancing that would also be impacted by such large changes. 

1. to # 1 // Alright let me be clear then. It MAY be against the rules and I don't want to violate them in any way given the corporate way of making things vague for their own uses. I will not give any reason to think that it is even close to derailing the topic. If you want to discuss more on this then start a new thread or conversation where it wouldn't fall into a gray area if it's on topic or not. Also just because I won't explain something doesn't make it false or wrong. it's an assumption on your part. Sure proving your work is important but if it's against the rules to prove it why should I? Or maybe you could go read my post to learn these things, I did post them before afterall.
2. to #2 // That's not the goal. Making different frames viable is a side objective with reworking the game in mind overall. You can change more than one thing at once. besides if you take issue with saryn being so popular because she's powerful in so much content, then why not make her less powerful in that content when they get around to it. It's not that difficult.
3. to # 3 // In what way does providing facts about Saryn being healthy in one area and negative in another, count as distorting reality. It's a fact not an perception of words. Whichever way you slice it she sucks at boss content or nonmassacre mission objectives like spy. I also have explained and given evidence that she doesn't. If I can kill with saryns in my group why can't you? That may be the question you need to ask yourself.
4. to # 4 // I shouldn't need to present circumstances to the obvious. Limbo's cataclysm is a balloon and nullifiers are a needle. Pop goes the cataclysm. The fact that her damage is so prevalent is because of FOR THE LAST TIME the missions call for damage. Damage does not put her over the top, it's her viability for mission completion just like any other warframe, farming frames excluded. Change how the mission is completed and she falls. Nuke and CC frames have coexisted in 1 game mode you're forgetting. in raids Damage and CC was commonplace. How can you say she's the problem when she worked hand in hand with the king of CC at one point?
5. to #6 // Yeah it's why it's called an indirect nerf. But she doesn't actually get weaker. As stated in point 4 it's her mission viability. Here's an example of a change which indirectly nerfs saryn, it's silly but its an obvious example I can point out. ESO now is 100% reliant on hacking terminals, saryn is now useless because she has no natural talent at hacking terminals. congrats she's now less viable. But in no way was her damage touched meaning she's just as powerful as before.
6. to # 7 // I have been reading them, otherwise I wouldn't have been able to respond to everything. But that doesn't mean your words can't be misunderstood and in this case it felt like you said that I was fine with warframes being just as powerful as her. That's not true. I want warframes to be just as viable but not just as powerful. 
7. to #8 // How the- no? what? How is adding eximus which hits status types only going by a frame to frame basis? It's going on a playstyle to playstyle basis. If anyone here wants to go frame by frame it's you.

   On 2019-12-07 at 8:02 PM, Cubewano said:

   1. That cycle would repeat only until the final outlier is dealt with, it isn't infinite, and the list is short

   Your misunderstanding that the cycle doesn't end will continue down frame by frame direct nerfs and reworks constantly altering how viable any and all warframes are.
8. to #9 // *outside of if it's playable* means it's considered playable. I don't understand why you're so fixated on a point of solo play when were talking about Saryn and her effect on Co Op. Plus Raids were not solo viable either yet they were a lovely part of the game to those who played it. Even if it wasn't solo viable, which it is, that doesn't automatically make it bad. Can we please drop solo play now?
9. to #10 // and?
10. to #11 // How is my statement false? Warframe's history is on my side here not yours. If DPS leaves players WILL go to tanky warframes. IT's already favored why won't it be more favored is DPS leaves. The most durable DPS is the most popular DPS, saryn. Inaros, Rhino, Wukong, Nekros, and more are also seen constantly because they can tank.
11. to #12 // I haven't removed anything from any of my posts. The only edits I have done are spelling corrections. I'm normally civil but never accuse me of something I did not do. Ever. it's a blatant lie made to smear my image and make me look like I don't know what I'm talking about. If I make a fool of myself I leave it out there for everyone to see. If you've got proof I removed it then show it don't say it.
12. to #13 // The point of which she was worked on and when ESO came out was so small that I have to believe she was made with ESO in mind. If not DE is actually incompetent. No developer ever reworks a character without considering upcoming projects, trends, and recent events. ESO was being worked on for a long time so at worst they would have subconscious thoughts of that while she was being remade. I can agree that she wasn't intended on being so dominant but who's fault is that? The game was primed for her kit to work and if that wasn't considered during pablo's rework of Saryn I daresay heresy pablo dun goofed hard and only recently realized that.
13. to #14 Again off topic, gray area, won't speak on it. I have proposed those changes in different threads I created. If your curious either make a thread allowing me to explain there or you can find them yourself.
14. to #15 Saryn on an equal playing field with other warframes? why? She's DPS and thrives as one becuase she isn't meant to be on par with warframes like say vauban or baruuk. She's meant to do damage why remove that role unless you're going to give her a completely new role. We have such few DPS warframes that it would be shooting yourself to do that. Warframe variety needs to be there and she's unique in theme, abilities, role, and how she carries all of those out. Making her less focused on damage greatly changes her identity and she becomes just another frame. As I said before, the list isn't so short of what frames over perform. You think the list will stay the same if you change a popular warframed, well no that % of players who went one place will go to another place and inflate that frames numbers. Will they be shot too even though they were considered fine before? No matter what you do unless you balance missions to value more frames there will always be a gap in play rate as players leapfrog from one frame to the next.

[8faiNt]

Since saryn is a frame themed arround contagious spores and deadly viruses my suggesting is completly about that

Well, diseases in real life needs their host to be alive for them to stay alive if the host dies too quickly then the viruse cant spread, viruse would eat itself and eventually die out

So, what if you bring a new mechanic to saryn's scaling ability to her 1? say, after an enemy got the spore/viruse they need to stay alive for x ammount of seconds and if the required x seconds has not been completed you lose x ammount of spore from the spore pool.

or it can just be like you lose x ammount of spore for each enemy you kill with your 1

or enemies that have the spores must die with her miasma for saryn to not lose her spores or she just loses less spores when she kills with miasma 

IMO limiting her infinite scaling ability is a good way of nerfing her without making her absolutely trash(also it is realistic) and my idea is not even well thought Im sure DE can come up with something better if they want to without making her useless

[CuChulainnWD]

Just leave her alone, she is great in a niche setting, and ok in all else. Leave this can of worms alone.

[TheGodofWiFi]

I'm so bored of the perpetual nerf culture in Warframe, a Player vs Environment game.

I speak no hyperbole when I say PVP games have less of an enthusiastic nerf culture than this game does. Pablo going on about nerfing things when frames like Hydroid are sitting in the corner gathering dust, just shows how bad this mentality has become. Buff the bad things up instead of nerfing the already good things.

This endless cycle of nerfs is just bandaiding the broken scaling.

Edited December 10, 2019 by TheGodofWiFi

[8faiNt]

You guys cant pretend like it wont happen word went out and Saryn will get nerfed either way thanks to everyone whining about her style. This nerf %100 a better way of nerfing her than reducing the chance to status procc or giving her a LoS or reducing her damage.

IMO this is the only humane way of ''nerfing'' her without making her trash which is why I suggested an idea I dont want saryn to be trash but usable.

[TheGodofWiFi]

3 minutes ago, 8faiNt said:

You guys cant pretend like it wont happen word went out and Saryn will get nerfed either way thanks to everyone whining about her style.

By "everyone" you mean people on the official forums. Everyone else is telling Pablo/DE to actually look at the reason why Saryn is so popular, which is ESO and it's awful gameplay.

Saryn being nerfed will not fix ESO, which is the main reason Pablo even joked about nerfing her to begin with, because thats all you see in ESO since she is one of the only frames who can deal with that horribly implemented mode efficiently. People will just move to the next best thing as it has always been the case.

Saryn is a symptom, not the root of the issue.

[8faiNt]

7 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

By "everyone" you mean people on the official forums. Everyone else is telling Pablo/DE to actually look at the reason why Saryn is so popular, which is ESO and it's awful gameplay.

Saryn being nerfed will not fix ESO, which is the main reason Pablo even joked about nerfing her to begin with, because thats all you see in ESO since she is one of the only frames who can deal with that horribly implemented mode efficiently. People will just move to the next best thing as it has always been the case.

Saryn is a symptom, not the root of the issue.

eso is completly a different matter of topic Im talking about balancing saryn's infinite scaling.

[Hellmaker2004]

6 minutes ago, 8faiNt said:

Im talking about balancing saryn's infinite scaling.

Plenty of frames have "infinite" scaling, there is a cap but it is unrealistic high to the point we may call it infinite especialy with how her decay work compared to growth, also. Saryn is in fact one of those who have the slowest scaling out of the frames that have a scaling mechanic.

She has ((2 X Power Strenght) X '1 to 7') Per second in Scaling. At base, that is at peak infested targets, 14 Damage per second per spore. Hardly what one would consider high especialy if you look at other frames with scaling.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Hellmaker2004

[SnowRyder]

On 2019-12-03 at 4:39 AM, Cubewano said:

People don't have a problem with what you do solo, but what happens when you're not. Balance doesn't happen in a vacuum, and while Saryn being broken in isolation is probably a more tolerable user experience, when met by other players and she's still cleaning house with impunity that's not a fun experience for many more than just the Saryn player. She can toggle off gameplay for others, asked for or not, and that's not good for those not asking for it.

That said nobody wants her to stop functioning in solo either so you shouldn't be worried in that case so far as aims for her nerfs go, people largely just don't want her to be massively overpowered to the point of invalidation she currently rests at. 

so whats your point? you could remove saryn from the game and people would just use gara/frost to nuke the entire map instead lol 

[8faiNt]

7 minutes ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

Plenty of frames have "infinite" scaling, there is a cap but it is unrealistic high to the point we may call it infinite especialy with how her decay work compared to growth, also. Saryn is in fact one of those who have the slowest scaling out of the frames that have a scaling mechanic.

She has ((2 X Power Strenght) X '1 to 7') Per second in Scaling. At base, that is at peak infested targets, 14 Damage per second per spore. Hardly what one would consider high especialy if you look at other frames with scaling.

fancy explaining why she scales so good if she has one of the slowest scaling ability?

[TheGodofWiFi]

21 minutes ago, 8faiNt said:

eso is completly a different matter of topic Im talking about balancing saryn's infinite scaling.

ESO is the whole reason this stupid "Nerf Saryn" movement even came up. Saryn's infinite scaling is directly needed due to the very fact that the game itselfs scales infinitely. You put any sort of cap, no matter how balanced you believe it is, its a nerf. Simply because the horrible scaling of enemies who end up have millions upon millions of HP values which no frame beyond the ones that infinitely scale can beat. In other words, there is no realistic way to "balance" Saryn when the game itself is perpetually unbalanced.

Like I said, Saryn is a symptom circling around a larger problem that the devs refuse to acknowledge.

Edited December 10, 2019 by TheGodofWiFi

[8faiNt]

9 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

ESO is the whole reason this stupid "Nerf Saryn" movement even came up. Saryn's infinite scaling is directly needed due to the very fact that the game itselfs scales infinitely. You put any sort of cap, no matter how balanced you believe it is, its a nerf. Simply because the horrible scaling of enemies who end up have millions upon millions of HP values which no frame beyond the ones that infinitely scale can beat. In other words, there is no realistic way to "balance" Saryn when the game itself is perpetually unbalanced.

Like I said, Saryn is a symptom circling around a larger problem that the devs refuse to acknowledge.

have you read and tried to understand my suggestion? Im not saying there should be any cap Im basically saying that if she is killing too fast with her 1 she should lose part of her spores thats literally it. you are in denial and thinking she wont get nerfed cuz that's an eso problem stop derailing the thread this thread is not about eso

Edited December 10, 2019 by 8faiNt

[Andele3025]

OR just make spores have a single status chance roll per target used for every spore giving her a downside on the spore build for having low strength while making miasma nuke damage not auto quad if a spore is on the enemy but instead take a % of the accumulated spore damage and add it to the post-modded damage (as it already scales off both strength and duration).

And let saryn re-stun enemies with her 4 even if they are already infected and make regen molt augment use the hp regen stat instead of be a timer heal.

[TheGodofWiFi]

6 minutes ago, 8faiNt said:

you are in denial and thinking she wont get nerfed cuz that's an eso problem stop derailing the thread.

I’m not derailing anything at all. The Saryn situation is directly related to ESO. Pablo didn’t just go on twitter and say “Saryn nerf inbound”. He was streaming ESO, where you see a lot of Saryns.

Thats what Pablo was streaming when he suggested her nerf.

I’m not in denial of anything. Whether or not Saryn is nerfed does not matter to me as she is not my main frame (truth be told I don’t have a main because this kind of crap happens). I’m saying Pablo and by extension DE are not addressing the root reason why certain frames with scaling like Saryn are so popular.

This is related to her nerfs so stop acting like its a separate issue.

Edited December 10, 2019 by TheGodofWiFi

[8faiNt]

20 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

I’m not in denial of anything.

That's something who is in denial would say and you still dont acknowledge the suggestion Im making and commenting about something I did not mention in the thread yes this is derailing. I will not reply to you anymore If you want to talk about ESO problems Im sure you can find the right thread about it this is not one of them

 

 

Edited December 10, 2019 by 8faiNt

[Ikusias]

everyone speaking of Saryn in ESO (where she is in the perfect situation for her sphores), but no one considers that she deletes entire maps everywere else at tiles of distance from her casting point?

Other frames at least are limited to the current tile/floor, with a Saryn in squad instead you can rush ahead and find a ghost town becouse her sphores kept speading and cleaned up most of the map.

This is why players are pissed. Other map wipe abilities usually are more contained or don't kill instantaneusly... and are 4th abilities, not 1st ones

Equinox maim: it shreds low level enemies with dot, but fails off quickly with level, giving a useful initial stun, then it depends on stored damage to whipe the current tile - it doesn't reach trough closed doors or other map transitions, continuous energy drain, limited maximum reach, hard cap to damage capacity for "nuke", said damage is allocated among all targets.

Volt discharge: stunlocks enemies on the spot and electrocutes them for a few seconds, has line of sight check and doesn't reach outside current tile and elevation, leaves time for squadmates to finish stunned enemies - as usual low starchart level enemies get fryied, single cast, slow casting animation that can get frame downed before completion, has maximum distance, has line of sight check and limited vertical reach, based on one of the worst elements ingame.

Ember new World of Fire: line of sight check in field of view - enemies start burning and can spread effect to adiacent mobs.

Khora whipclaw with augment: line of sight, ranged attack with area of effect, can whipe good numbers of enemies per cast but suffers agains armor, with increase of enemy levels needs to be comboed with her #2 and #4 for increased damage, area and crowd control - all in line of sight and immediate distance from frame.

Saryn sphores: cast once and potentially infect every enemy spawn on the map without further action, combo with miasma for instant finisher if damage over time doesn't suffice.

Of all these which is the broken one?

Edited December 10, 2019 by Ikusias

[(PSN)NewcastleDisease]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Ikusias:

everyone speaking of Saryn in ESO (where she is in the perfect situation for her sphores), but no one considers that she deletes entire maps everywere else at tiles of distance from her casting point?

nope.... may happens on small maps (defense or something like that)... but you can do this with a few other frames as well on these maps.... thats the main problem: "everyone" speak about such nonsense, but the truth is: saryn isn't the only frame who can do this. 

 

Zitat

Other frames at least are limited to the current tile/floor, with a Saryn in squad instead you can rush ahead and find a ghost town becouse her sphores kept speading and cleaned up most of the map.

that again isn't correct.. under some circumstances this might happens - if you had forma you saryn several time, have the right arcanas, the right mods and so on, the map is builded for this and you have enough enemys you can attack with the spores, kill all of them in perfekt timing and the level of you enemys are silly low.. then there is a chance this happens..

but do you aware that you can still kill enemys with spores on it? for example i'm faster in killing enemys (even if they are infested wth spores) with my wukong than a saryn can spreading and kill with her spores. thats the point of it: it strips down armour from your enemys, make them vulnerable, so it's easier to kill them.. saryn is good as she is and perfect for her purpose.

Edited December 10, 2019 by (PS4)NewcastleDisease
typo

[ValinorAtani]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb BRZZAFK:

the main reason they think saryn should be nerf is bacause of she doing too great on killing mobs.

And why should this be a problem? I mean we are playing a Looter Shooter. Main Goal is to kill hordes of enemies as fast as possible. It's like an Diablo in Space as a Third Person Shooter not an Dark Souls. Minions has to die fast. Sadly enough the Enemy Spawn and Path AI is so broken behind fixing. This and several Frames who lacks fun and engaging Abilities is a Problem of DE.

Look at the Catchmoon. The only reason why I'm using it are the annoying drones in Arbitrations. Thats the only reason.

If DE doesnt want to acknowledge wrong gameplay decisions made by them the players will find a way to work around it. Weapons like the Fulmin, Catchmoon or even the Arca Plasmor are the Symptome of badly designed and implemented Enemies, Gamemodes etc. But instead of fixing the Symptomes they should fix the root causes for high used Frames and Weapons.

And yes I used Saryn mainly for ESO. Because it is (for me) the only viable and fun to play answer of the lacking Gamemode as ESO is right now.

Edited December 10, 2019 by ValinorAtani

[BRZZAFK]

2分钟前 , ValinorAtani 说:

And why should this be a problem? I mean we are playing a Looter Shooter. Main Goal is to kill hordes of enemies as fast as possible. It's like an Diablo in Space as a Third Person Shooter not an Dark Souls. Minions has to die fast. Sadly enough the Enemy Spawn and Path AI is so broken behind fixing. This and several Frames who lacks fun and engaging Abilities is a Problem of DE. Look at the Catchmoon. The only reason why I'm using it are the annoying drones in Arbitrations. Thats the only reason. If DE doesnt want to acknowledge wrong gameplay decisions made by them the players will find a way to work around it. Weapons like the Fulmin, Catchmoon or even the Arca Plasmor. They're the Symptome of bad implemented Enemies, Gamemodes etc. But instead of fixing the Symptomes they should fix the root causes for high used Frames and Weapons. And yes I used Saryn mainla for ESO. Because it is (for me) the only viable and fun to play answer of the lacking Gamemode as ESO is right now.

if warframe is Diablo then they should not have design any warframe that cant nuke. problem is simple. because nuker make all other dps warframe Inefficient and pointless. the solution will be 1.nerf all nuker to the level other dps 2.remake every dps frame into nuker 3.dev a game mode that nuker cant do only other dps frame can do.  

[Xaero]

31 minutes ago, BRZZAFK said:

3.dev a game mode that nuker cant do only other dps frame can do.

The whole Tau content should work like this because of Sentient adaptation.

[RunningChaos]

20 minutes ago, Xaero said:

The whole Tau content should work like this because of Sentient adaptation.

At the level that DE will make them, they will still be nuked.