Regarding Pablo's recent stream about saryn

[SneakyErvin]

2 hours ago, (PS4)DoctorWho_90250 said:

Catchmoon. Nerfed.
Nekros/Ivara/Hydroid/Khora farming synergy. Nerfed...until complaints forced DE to change their minds.
Nekros will be nerfed...because he's popular.
Inaros will be nerfed...because he's popular.
Saryn will be nerfed...because she's popular.
[Insert frame, weapon, archwing, sentinel, pet name] will be nerfed...because it's popular.

Catchmoon deserved the nerf and it is still a monster of a gun that does the job of a primary.

I doubt Nekros will be nerfed, he is a loot frame and a survival frame that can be built tanky. He doesnt bring anything extraordinary. For farming he is the same type of tool as Khora but Hydroid does it better than both.

Inaros is a meatshield, his popularity isnt above all else and he has several rivals that does the same thing as him but with a better kit aswell. Grendel, Khora, Nekros, Valkyr, Atlas, Baruuk, Garuda, Hildryn (aside from vs infested) and others are as tanky or tankier than him.

Saryn will get nerfed because she is OP and removes gameplay from others. It wont be due to popularity when the day comes.

[Fl_3]

19 minutes ago, (XB1)Almighty Deity said:

"No rework is CURRENTLY planned for Saryn". It's not that it's not on their radar. In fact it very much is on their radar. Why do you think that they'd release all those usage stats immediately following a nerf to something that was overused?

Most aren't saying or implying they're definitely going to nerf Saryn right now, they're simply showing disapproval towards that action before it's too late.

This right here is the reason so many people are kicking off. 

[DE]Pablo said in his original post in this thread (now deleted) that he was not "considering a nerf to Saryn atm."

ATM, At The Moment.

That atm is the issue, because that atm means it's being considered.

You can't be a part of DE staff and say something like that and not expect a reaction. If he doesn't want people to react to what he says he shouldn't say it in the first place. It doesn't matter if he uses the [DE] tag when he's streaming or not, people know who he is, he's a recognised face of Digital Extremes and he should act as such.

Now, I admit I play Saryn in ESO, but, I play her solo, in a group with friends I normally take a Harrow or a Trinity. Why should my solo gameplay ability be punished simply because other people choose to play Saryn in Public.

You want to stop people using Saryn in public ESO, simple, just deny her access to that game mode.

Or, give us a choice to omit certain frames from our groups when we launch into a mission, the result would be longer wait times maybe, more chances of having to run your sortie solo, but at least you won't have *enter name of frame I don't like* playing with you now will you?

[(PSN)Still-Counting75]

Try Mesa, Gara, Volt Ember, Titiana 

[Aadi880]

17 minutes ago, (PS4)Still-Counting75 said:

Try Mesa, Gara, Volt Ember, Titiana 

Are you implying Titania needs a nerf???

Sure, her 4 is strong, but that's the only thing that is strong. Her other 3 abilities might not even exist to players given how much they do ragdolling enemies into orbit.

[(XBOX)Hyperion Rexx]

I'm constantly surprised at the nerf herders complaining saryn ruins their game play.   The stats provided by de show that, while she is one of the more popular frames, she isn't by any stretch overused.   Where are you seeing all these saryn's that are ruining your game?   I play a lot of missions and I'm lucky if I see her 1 in 10.  

In eso, yes, you'll see her most missions.  That's because she's far and away the best tool for that job.   If I have to put a nail in a bit of wood I will use a hammer as it's the best tool for the job.   I won't get rid of my hammer because my screwdriver feels left out or because someone using a screwdriver is upset because I'm able to put more nails in the bit of wood than they can.

When I was starting out in wf I used to see higher players in missions that destroyed enemies before I got a chance to kill anything.  This didn't upset me.  It gave me a purpose in the game, I wanted to be that powerful and learn the ways of the tenno.  We grind to become more powerful.  I'm now at a point where I can bring just about any loadout and I'll probably be top kills in most missions because I know what I'm doing and it seems lots of players don't.   That to me is the problem, low skill players who invest little in their gear expect to be able to perform to the same level as good/prepared players.  Saryn just gets called out because she is obviously powerful. 

 There will always be powerful tools, we can't nerf everything back to baseline in a futile attempt at making sure everyone gets the same number of kills.  We might as well only have 1 frame and 3 weapons in that case.  Even then, someone will still come out on top.  What then?

[GrimSinner]

On 2019-12-03 at 6:18 AM, Smilomaniac said:

Nerfing things in Warframe is a huge negative that trivializes the time that people have spent on the game and funnily enough people don't think that's very fair, fun or reasonable.

And steals your hard earned or purchased platinum, don't forget that.  Nothing sucks worse than spending plat to buy a great riven or build up a weapon, warframe, etc., and DE nerfs it into useless garbage.  About the only thing one can safely invest platinum is cosmetics.

[(XBOX)Almighty Deity]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Catchmoon deserved the nerf and it is still a monster of a gun that does the job of a primary.

I doubt Nekros will be nerfed, he is a loot frame and a survival frame that can be built tanky. He doesnt bring anything extraordinary. For farming he is the same type of tool as Khora but Hydroid does it better than both.

Inaros is a meatshield, his popularity isnt above all else and he has several rivals that does the same thing as him but with a better kit aswell. Grendel, Khora, Nekros, Valkyr, Atlas, Baruuk, Garuda, Hildryn (aside from vs infested) and others are as tanky or tankier than him.

Saryn will get nerfed because she is OP and removes gameplay from others. It wont be due to popularity when the day comes.

That's not why it got nerfed, and it's nowhere near the highest DPS secondary. Not even close. It's because a bunch of MR27s ran around with it on their hip. That's literally why. Don't believe me? Listen to the streams and look at the reports. It wasn't average DPS, kills, or active wielding time. Just time it was there on your frame, regardless of use.

Nekros had his synergy broken with Hydroid right up until the community said no. I very little doubt they'll try again later. He's been nerfed before by reducing his max scaling on desecrate. No one other than booty pirate can loot better than him.

Inaros is right up there with Saryn in terms of use. Regardless of kit(most you mentioned aren't used, either). You're wrong on the tank factor. He's got the highest eHP of any frame. Second is Valkyr, and 3rd is Nidus. Speaking of you forgot the only one that literally can't die if used correctly.

Saryn isn't OP nor does she "remove gameplay from others". It's comments like this that make me wonder how many play any games mode past 20 minutes or at all. Claiming because miasma is AoE that she's OP is hilarious considering out of the 3 I've played with today(in close to 30 matches mind you), none have done more damage than my general setup cc mag. Don't tell me that mag is OP now too.

Edited December 4, 2019 by (XB1)Almighty Deity

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

1 hour ago, Fl_3 said:

This right here is the reason so many people are kicking off. 

[DE]Pablo said in his original post in this thread (now deleted) that he was not "considering a nerf to Saryn atm."

ATM, At The Moment.

That atm is the issue, because that atm means it's being considered.

 

I entirely agree here. There is no doubt in my mind that a Saryn nerf is "on the table" at least, if Pablo has anything to say about the decision to go forward with that.

 

Quote

You can't be a part of DE staff and say something like that and not expect a reaction. If he doesn't want people to react to what he says he shouldn't say it in the first place. It doesn't matter if he uses the [DE] tag when he's streaming or not, people know who he is, he's a recognised face of Digital Extremes and he should act as such.

I disagree with the whole "you're always on the clock" junk flying around the net about people and their jobs and their personal lives and social media. Personal time is personal time, social media is outside of the game. A job is just a means to make a living and do what matters to you. The only relevant things that matter to Warframe, should be the official channels and what actually gets followed through on. A worker's personal opinion is just that, and unless they're a decision maker, that makes little difference. (I could say any number of personal opinions about how my job is run, but as I'm not in a position to make any changes, none of that matters, for instance. If I were the CEO, or a manager, my opinion would matter a little bit more.)

That said, because Pablo was involved in the Saryn rework we currently have, and he's making a comment about wanting to change her again, and the track record of such responsibility falling into his hands... it has a likelyhood to be followed through on, in-game. THIS creates the only plausible reason for backlash against his comment, and a preemptive outcry against such nerfs that are now "likely" to happen.

There is no need for him to be "careful" about what he says, however. His opinion is his opinion. Being honest is fine... the reaction from the community is to be expected. If Warframe doesn't want outrage from the community about the opinions of their workers being voiced, that's another matter. But if it's something where that opinion is likely to impact that community, it's a good idea to see how it fares, anyway (to see whether or not they have a valid reason to object to one person's opinion, and whether or not it should be followed through on, in-game.)

 

Quote

Now, I admit I play Saryn in ESO, but, I play her solo, in a group with friends I normally take a Harrow or a Trinity. Why should my solo gameplay ability be punished simply because other people choose to play Saryn in Public.

You want to stop people using Saryn in public ESO, simple, just deny her access to that game mode.

Or, give us a choice to omit certain frames from our groups when we launch into a mission, the result would be longer wait times maybe, more chances of having to run your sortie solo, but at least you won't have *enter name of frame I don't like* playing with you now will you?

I agree with Saryn not needing a nerf.

I agree with better filtering options for public matchmaking. (I even posted a suggestion about a new "Looking for Group" user interface to help matchmake people with like goals, to avoid Limbos or Saryns, if they dislike them that much... and I think the numbers of people filtering like that would be quite low, compared to the outrage seen in some of these posts.)

 

 

 

Unrelated to the quoted bits (which were simply included as the most recent examples of the ideas put forth, and were not a direct reply to the poster of the specific quotes):

 

Personally, I think that if you sign up for public matchmaking, you're giving up your rights to decide how the game is played. It's no longer on your terms of what makes you happy solo. If you choose not to make your own group with invite, you're saying you're ok with whatever anyone else wants to do, as long as they complete the objective of the mission.

The fact that the game "CAN" be played in a co-op manner is true... if you decide to cooperate with a group that you form. This is not something expected of every single public group. To expect otherwise is irrational, even if the game is self-described as a co-op game.

Now, I'd go so far as to argue that a Saryn killing all the enemies, in a game mode where your objective is to kill those enemies, IS COOPERATING with the group to achieve the objective. THERE IS NO PROBLEM THERE. It's a personal problem that a person feels "left out" of participating in achieving the goal, and there are ways to ensure that you're playing with people who play in a way that ensure that you're required to participate (recruit, invite, clans, etc)

If some people think that everyone needs to be killing enemies to be contributing to the completion of the objective, they're objectively wrong. There are support roles and tactics that can be applied to help that Saryn be even more efficient. But if all you want are kills and forcing other people to not kill "your" enemies, by reducing their abilities ranges and power through nerfs... I have no sympathy or agreement with your stance.

 

 

[ChaoticEdge]

9 hours ago, Tenma.Gabriel said:

Since when discussing the problems with DE's ongoing update become insulting and aggresive complaints? I believe a game is dying when no one can and is willing to point out and argue on these problems.

that is not the problem in fact the reason why players leaving is because we are waiting for the update "again" as usually, veteran, average players, pro, half pro, and ect of ppl are leaving the game because they get the game finish with in 3 days because the quest is "limited" which the dev is still updating the railjack where it can be flyable to be in space but it isn't implanted yet for it doesn't mean it is meaningless because we do go back for the game even thou it changes.  It just people have to learn how to adapt when changes come but some people don't like changes for the frame they work so hard and whatever listed they work so hard get rechange a lot and it wouldn't matter on my list at least because it

yes I know some people can't go on the flow trying to adapt but sometime here and there for there away reason why changes for you have to look reason why the "down" side reason for back then we had Galatine the regular one was the God-like founder weapon during old melee 1.0 or whatever it is exactly at because during that time charge attack was King because 1 hit = instance kill depend on the build and you can kill every players with mega build that actually bs the battlefield, need take down vor with in 1 hit galatine was your prime to go, need kill the jackle with in 1 hit, galatine will cut down the legs and finish it with 1 blow, need kill that dushbag bosses galatine is your bro to go with.  That why changes need to be made for there is was a good changes about it and self reason why it change to be channel energy then go back again better version of strong attack but more of 1.5 version for good and reasonable uses which the melee is whole example sounded like good and bad changes but mainly it was bad changes for ppl who is going though process of melee build because that was our captain ship right there for it supported ppl who love or being the weeb swordsmen have it hard like thick as rock.   At the time being yes there been up and down about these things but shouldn't revolt any reason to blame them for any occasions because there were lots nerf for it should be asking the question yourself "have we gone too much the level that break the game?" for yes we do attended break the game whole lot and massive amount of level that why the Dev had to nerf here and there because of either players abuse way too much power like the mooncatcher for yes there was massive abuse because thanks to the arcane it basically you made it another arca cannon as well there is reason why there is a nerf.  When reason things are what needed to be nerf or either to be or had to be nerf is because either you can blame ppl of the request of nerfing weapons and frame or ppl abuse power that suck the fun out of, for this isn't my problem basically we create problems that developed over time as to be we are drunk in power but never cared the responsibility any measure for we keep on building bricks by bricks for these dev making a fort to rule over but I don't think that how it should work, instead building a fort as violent nation but should of been fair equal trade like a merchant for it is wise to listen why then reevaluate things before we put a price on the nerf to be reasonable to be that type of cost.

[Nezha_Rose]

Imagine going to ESO to farm affinity and complain about nuke frames. 

[Cubewano]

7 hours ago, Violet_Xe said:

 I do understand how crazy it sounds because it's DE were talking about. But I think where were disconnecting is you're talking about the current state of the game and what's best for that in the short term. At least I think that's where you're coming from. I'm on a different end of the spectrum for long term improvement to the game, using saryn as a catalyst or reference point for how to create difficult content so she and so many other warframes can shine. This is hypothetical though as it only works if DE does it right and keeps on the right track. If they're incapable of doing this I would say yes directly nerfing her would be better but I, in their position, would take the other path.
   I love the other parts of the game, that don't involve me slamming my chakram on the wall to find the third cache I missed, to bits. I've played the game for years just like you and I want all missions to get attention. That's specifically why I'd rather DE handle it differently and my personal experiences only reinforce that thought process. It's biased yes, but from what I've seen players say she dominates in survival, defense, ESO. I hate saryn so much but instead of taking it lying down I directed that hate towards improving myself and now, as a nezha or banshee mind you, keep up with damage and kills without using cheap tactics like reach mods or meta weapons because that's how efficient I've become at killing in some cases. Certainly I shouldn't have to be like that but if I can throw off alot of saryn's by sometimes taking their top damage crown every once in awhile she can't be as powerful as so many players make her out to be.
   When the next bit of power creep comes I hope, hope key word, DE can finally give us some challenging content like the raids or eximus changes I've proposed because those would force players to act differently. Power creep is only power creep if there's no content to match it properly which means it should be called progression. 

   She's certainly the best AoE DPS but there's issues and exceptions/rivals to that title. For one she isn't alone in being capable of killing in mass quickly for the content we care about. Repeating myself with different words here, for the content we care about mirage, volt, and more can wipe ESO up to wave 8 and survivals up to 20m. But if damage is her golden egg then she's got weaknesses for content DE can and has made. Depending on the content released different frames rise to the top. Saryn isn't the Eidolon Slayer. She isn't the Defense Goddess. She isn't alot of things so she isn't oppressive to the point where other frames are unplayable at the highest level of play, it's just her reputation paints her that way. At least that's how it seems to me as I know not every player is willing to train themselves to become hyper efficient at killing. I may not be able to wipe rooms in a single cast but they have to work up their nukes first and I finish my work in that time frame.
   Here's an example, it's preM3.0 of a Kuva Survival but it should get my point across. I don't remember who but one of these players was a saryn prime. This is also one reason why i'm expecting Nezha to get nerfed soon because he also got benefits from heat procs and I can do this without a maxed nezha. I don't run reach either so you can't call me out for classic spin 2 win tactics.

She would certainly have a small spot in the game but it's uncertain and unclear how many warframes will out value her. After all a debuff frame would fall in the exact same category of supports and CC warframes, useless. Why play them when all content can be wiped with any warframe. In this hypothetical world without spore damage, I'd take a banshee that multiplies damage over Saryn chopping health in 1/2 for a set duration of time and removes armor. Loki isn't king because of disarm alone, he's the master race because of enemy manipulation and control with his 4 abilities. So many warframes have debuff+ more yet what you're suggesting is saryn becoming a black mage that can't deal damage which is why I'm uncertain if she'll remain relevant without spore damage. One of my concerns with a saryn nerf is rather than creating content for other frames to flourish like saryn, we nerf and reduce our current cast and keep going in this nerf/buff cycle till the end of time. This is an uncertainty, not an assured outcome I want to point that out.
   Saryn does overshadow the concept of support, in specific circumstances. But she's far from alone in knocking the support archetype. Trinity and Harrow were hit hard because of energizing dash and arcane magus, CC frames with other operator arcanes, why heal the tank when the tank has it's own healing? why play this support who fights his own team over one who can kill for herself? Why play support or CC when raids were removed! never letting that go. The difficulty of content hasn't aged to spark a desire for the support play style because you don't need debuffs, or buffs, nor do you need healing abilities. Solo meme builds are already capable of soloing content without breaking so much as a sweat. So much is to do with supports and CC not being relevant and it's a crime to pin it all on one class of warframe.

I already expressly explained to you how your ideas are terrible in the long term, and completely unsustainable, how you think I'm on the short term wagon here still is beyond me and unless you are actually going to put into words how that is true, like I did to your focus on the short term, you are just making completely false statements and ignoring my words. But again, redesigning the entire game around a frame is not sustainable no matter how much you loathe the idea of nerfs. 

You also keep talking about this visionary dream state for Warframe by revolving it around Saryn, but what actually is the game plan for this perfect world? You don't say what should be done instead, except ~change~, what change? To what parts of the game? What frames? Weapons? Game modes? Co-op? Solo play? Why does it revolve so heavily around Saryn's current state? Where are the specifics, like any at all? You're just slinging pretty words with no substances behind them. 

In regards to there being others nukes, yes, there are, and they are problems as well and I never stood to the contrary, but two wrongs don't make a right, and keeping the most explicit example of the problem around doesn't improve the situation. If you have multiple wounds, you don't refuse to close up any unless they can all be closed up at once, that just puts you are much further risk of fatality. She is a domineering force that can wipe maps with unnecessary ease to levels of overkill that isn't harmful to this game and its co-op experience, and unless you want to explain how that specifically is okay, then you aren't really making a point to the contrary here. It's still the same problem to be dealt with. 

I also don't care you out damaged randoms in a mission with no information on who you were playing with, their builds, how much effort they were exerting, you progression in the game, and so on. Congrats, maybe you did more damage than a Saryn who was afk or new, with min maxed gear and rivens, while they used a low range melee build and touched spores twice, it means nothing.

Likewise I already explained without nukes like Saryn the support category would be viable again, it used to be the meta for that matter until nukes made cc and all ranges of support far less meaningful. Saryn is only useless in a support state when her state exists, it is a self fulfilling prophecy and its nonsense to argue against changing her when that change breaks the cycle. All you're really listing here are further reasons why this change should happen, and is better for the games overall health, so many things have lost value because of nukes in the tier of Saryn, so many playstyles and even roles, and they could be reinvigorated by changing that, shouldn't you as the long term thinking see the immense value in that?  

 

 

[SastusBulbas]

10 hours ago, Cubewano said:

cool

Not really. Bit stupid to argue on forums to be honest.

 

Bigger shame for players who put hours or real money into something, grind away at mods n builds, just for it to be changed.

 

By the way, you can look at my PC account and probably see Saryn Prime and Saryn, cant even remember how much they have been used or modded.

 

On Xbox, not played her since levelling to 30. 

But I did buy her thinking of an ESO build later when I farm mods as I would like the Lato and Braton on xbox.

[Cubewano]

2 minutes ago, SastusBulbas said:

Not really. Bit stupid to argue on forums to be honest.

 

Bigger shame for players who put hours or real money into something, grind away at mods n builds, just for it to be changed.

 

By the way, you can look at my PC account and probably see Saryn Prime and Saryn, cant even remember how much they have been used or modded.

 

On Xbox, not played her since levelling to 30. 

But I did buy her thinking of an ESO build later when I farm mods as I would like the Lato and Braton on xbox.

You are a riot. Have a good one pal. 

[Violet_Xe]

8 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

I already expressly explained to you how your ideas are terrible in the long term, and completely unsustainable, how you think I'm on the short term wagon here still is beyond me and unless you are actually going to put into words how that is true, like I did to your focus on the short term, you are just making completely false statements and ignoring my words. But again, redesigning the entire game around a frame is not sustainable no matter how much you loathe the idea of nerfs. 

You also keep talking about this visionary dream state for Warframe by revolving it around Saryn, but what actually is the game plan for this perfect world? You don't say what should be done instead, except ~change~, what change? To what parts of the game? What frames? Weapons? Game modes? Co-op? Solo play? Why does it revolve so heavily around Saryn's current state? Where are the specifics, like any at all? You're just slinging pretty words with no substances behind them. 

In regards to there being others nukes, yes, there are, and they are problems as well and I never stood to the contrary, but two wrongs don't make a right, and keeping the most explicit example of the problem around doesn't improve the situation. If you have multiple wounds, you don't refuse to close up any unless they can all be closed up at once, that just puts you are much further risk of fatality. She is a domineering force that can wipe maps with unnecessary ease to levels of overkill that is harmful to this game and its co-op experience, and unless you want to explain how that specifically is okay, then you aren't really making a point to the contrary here. It's still the same problem to be dealt with. 

I also don't care you out damaged randoms in a mission with no information on who you were playing with, their builds, how much effort they were exerting, you progression in the game, and so on. Congrats, maybe you did more damage than a Saryn who was afk or new, with min maxed gear and rivens, while they used a low range melee build and touched spores twice, it means nothing.

Likewise I already explained without nukes like Saryn the support category would be viable again, it used to be the meta for that matter until nukes made cc and all ranges of support far less meaningful. Saryn is only useless in a support state when her state exists, it is a self fulfilling prophecy and its nonsense to argue against changing her when that change breaks the cycle. All you're really listing here are further reasons why this change should happen, and is better for the games overall health, so many things have lost value because of nukes in the tier of Saryn, so many playstyles and even roles, and they could be reinvigorated by changing that, shouldn't you as the long term thinking see the immense value in that?  

   I'll say it again I'm not asking them to remake the game every time an issue comes up. The idea is to blend what would be indirect nerfs to her as content through warframe's future launches, future content. This way she isnt touched but her viability falls while other warframes rise.

   I have said what should be done. Look back to page 17 where I said this "Even if DE did want to nerf her they could do so indirectly with new enemies, new health types, new mission types, and actually difficult bosses. In certain circumstances she is absolutely terrible like in radiation hazards where saryn slips once and oops, her team's been wiped by her own hands. Or fighting massive health bosses she will falter because she isn't a single target damage dealer." I can elaborate further but I don't need to because I've already talked and posted about these changes in a variety of other topics and the quite should get the point across just fine.

   I said that there are warframes that perform almost as good as she can. They aren't problems because I don't hear people complaining how mirage's explosive augment is OP or how volt is the destroyer of ESO. They aren't wounds that need to be closed because they aren't wounds at all or else we would be hearing about it constantly. Mirage, Volt, and Saryn all need areas where they can't wipe maps and those areas need to have difficult content so they don't instant wipe stuff and have to think.

   I don't have info on who I'm laying with you're absolutely right. This screenshot is just one random picture I took against a saryn. But it's one of hundreds i could have taken. many of those hundreds i can guarantee you run the builds you talk about and I still beat them. With various MR ranks, playtimes, builds, and more my efficiency allowed me to be competitive with ALL of them. Saryn's who both have tried and not tired. I can recall an exact example where one of my friends, a really good player, was confused at how I was actually beating up in damage in a 2 hour lith survival for the majority of the mission. I know that I can be competitive.

   No that's still wrong. There are so many things that prevent CC and supports from coming back. Some enemies have nullification, some enemies have CC and debuff immunity, some things enemies deploy aren't affected by abilities, some enemies have innate damage resistance which can't be removed through corrosive. tanks will also be the only class anyone will want to play if nukes are removed. CC and supports are still negated by these factors. Simply removing nukes is one part of the problem so I'll repeat myself putting them blame entirely on nuke warframes is not the right thing to do.
   The change you want to do will make her useless alongside everyone else who is affected by these things that won't change unless it's all changed at once. I'm not listing reasons to actually do these changes. Are you really willing to nerf all nukes, dps, and all tanks and go back to change nullification, armor, resistances, and more all at once? That's all required for the CC frames to come back and if that's all not done instantly then saryn and the rest of the warframes just sit being unviable while the tanks run the game until DE decides to get around to it. Or, my plan would involve slow changes over time to both hit nukes/dps frames, create content, and bring other frames back over time by fixing and adding giving DE time to work on other projects and gather feedback as updates are sent out.
   That's not to say that yours doesn't have merit, It's just personally I would prefer my route over yours. If DE really does feel like tackling all that at once go right ahead, but if they aren't willing to do all that at once then the game goes through an age of tanks where being harder to kill reins supreme. If you don't believe me just watch this. The title is misleading and it does seem like I'm proving your point but listen.

Spoiler

 

If DPS is gone of the 2 dominant playstyles and tanks aren't dealt with, scaling isn't dealt with, and all the other issues aren't dealt with at once, issues will surface almost immediately.

[Senguash]

6 hours ago, (XB1)Hyperion Rexx said:

I'm constantly surprised at the nerf herders complaining saryn ruins their game play.   The stats provided by de show that, while she is one of the more popular frames, she isn't by any stretch overused.   Where are you seeing all these saryn's that are ruining your game?   I play a lot of missions and I'm lucky if I see her 1 in 10.  

In eso, yes, you'll see her most missions.  That's because she's far and away the best tool for that job.   If I have to put a nail in a bit of wood I will use a hammer as it's the best tool for the job.   I won't get rid of my hammer because my screwdriver feels left out or because someone using a screwdriver is upset because I'm able to put more nails in the bit of wood than they can.

When I was starting out in wf I used to see higher players in missions that destroyed enemies before I got a chance to kill anything.  This didn't upset me.  It gave me a purpose in the game, I wanted to be that powerful and learn the ways of the tenno.  We grind to become more powerful.  I'm now at a point where I can bring just about any loadout and I'll probably be top kills in most missions because I know what I'm doing and it seems lots of players don't.   That to me is the problem, low skill players who invest little in their gear expect to be able to perform to the same level as good/prepared players.  Saryn just gets called out because she is obviously powerful. 

 There will always be powerful tools, we can't nerf everything back to baseline in a futile attempt at making sure everyone gets the same number of kills.  We might as well only have 1 frame and 3 weapons in that case.  Even then, someone will still come out on top.  What then?

Well said!

[Cubewano]

5 minutes ago, Violet_Xe said:

   I'll say it again I'm not asking them to remake the game every time an issue comes up. The idea is to blend what would be indirect nerfs to her as content through warframe's future launches, future content. This way she isnt touched but her viability falls while other warframes rise.

   I have said what should be done. Look back to page 17 where I said this "Even if DE did want to nerf her they could do so indirectly with new enemies, new health types, new mission types, and actually difficult bosses. In certain circumstances she is absolutely terrible like in radiation hazards where saryn slips once and oops, her team's been wiped by her own hands. Or fighting massive health bosses she will falter because she isn't a single target damage dealer." I can elaborate further but I don't need to because I've already talked and posted about these changes in a variety of other topics and the quite should get the point across just fine.

   I said that there are warframes that perform almost as good as she can. They aren't problems because I don't hear people complaining how mirage's explosive augment is OP or how volt is the destroyer of ESO. They aren't wounds that need to be closed because they aren't wounds at all or else we would be hearing about it constantly. Mirage, Volt, and Saryn all need areas where they can't wipe maps and those areas need to have difficult content so they don't instant wipe stuff and have to think.

   I don't have info on who I'm laying with you're absolutely right. This screenshot is just one random picture I took against a saryn. But it's one of hundreds i could have taken. many of those hundreds i can guarantee you run the builds you talk about and I still beat them. With various MR ranks, playtimes, builds, and more my efficiency allowed me to be competitive with ALL of them. Saryn's who both have tried and not tired. I can recall an exact example where one of my friends, a really good player, was confused at how I was actually beating up in damage in a 2 hour lith survival for the majority of the mission. I know that I can be competitive.

   No that's still wrong. There are so many things that prevent CC and supports from coming back. Some enemies have nullification, some enemies have CC and debuff immunity, some things enemies deploy aren't affected by abilities, some enemies have innate damage resistance which can't be removed through corrosive. tanks will also be the only class anyone will want to play if nukes are removed. CC and supports are still negated by these factors. Simply removing nukes is one part of the problem so I'll repeat myself putting them blame entirely on nuke warframes is not the right thing to do.
   The change you want to do will make her useless alongside everyone else who is affected by these things that won't change unless it's all changed at once. I'm not listing reasons to actually do these changes. Are you really willing to nerf all nukes, dps, and all tanks and go back to change nullification, armor, resistances, and more all at once? That's all required for the CC frames to come back and if that's all not done instantly then saryn and the rest of the warframes just sit being unviable while the tanks run the game until DE decides to get around to it. Or, my plan would involve slow changes over time to both hit nukes/dps frames, create content, and bring other frames back over time by fixing and adding giving DE time to work on other projects and gather feedback as updates are sent out.
   That's not to say that yours doesn't have merit, It's just personally I would prefer my route over yours. If DE really does feel like tackling all that at once go right ahead, but if they aren't willing to do all that at once then the game goes through an age of tanks where being harder to kill reins supreme. If you don't believe me just watch this. The title is misleading and it does seem like I'm proving your point but listen.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

If DPS is gone of the 2 dominant playstyles and tanks aren't dealt with, scaling isn't dealt with, and all the other issues aren't dealt with at once, issues will surface almost immediately.

So you're just asking for it because of this specific frame? Why? And again, how? I stand by what I said before, which is that Saryn's current power level is just incompatible with co-op play, so are you requesting this game be redone as a solo game? Or is her power level actually relevant? Do you want every frame to be reworked to behave more like her? How is her power being maintained while keeping/giving other frames identities and playstyles without being rendered inert as was noted by yourself in your last response? 

And vague sentiments aren't what I'm looking for, those can crumble easily. Give me specifics on what you want, and no I'm not going to do a where's waldo with your posts to find your supposed scattered elaborations for you, make your argument and please be concise.

Unless you can counter the impact they have as I posited in my previous response your statement is still null and void. We are arguing objective game design and effects, not forum vocality. 

Then show those hundreds with fine detail. Do a whole spread through all instances of gearing, for you and other players. It working for a veteran against non-veterans should not be a baseline to design the game around. 

Nullification was brought to the game as a direct counter to power play like Saryn, they don't need to be without it. Most CC immune enemies are mini bosses and bosses, so that isn't prevalent enough a cause to invalidate them. Same for debuff immunity which operates on an even smaller roster. It's worth noting most of those units are also designed to brush off nukes as well, yet look how prevalent they have remained. None of these points are standard enough to invalidate full play remotely. 

It will not, as shown through numerous examples across my last several responses of where support capabilities thrived in the absence of tiers like Saryn's, and with far less potent utility than she would have even as just a support. I also said nothing of nerfing all dps, or tanks, nor see how that is necesarry since tanks and dps existed full and well while supports where thriving in the past as well, they do not remotely prevent their success or value, only when the scale of nukes went up did problems arise. 

You haven't given a route, just lots of grand notion sentiments of no specific detail or direction except to do it without touching Saryn. As for tackling everything in one go, I'm pretty confident rebalancing a handful of over powered frames is far easier done than vaguely remaking the entire game per your vague dream work, and far less messy in the long term. 

[MirageKnight]

19 minutes ago, SastusBulbas said:

Bigger shame for players who put hours or real money into something, grind away at mods n builds, just for it to be changed.

The sheer ignorant entitlement of this post.

Just a heads up...when you installed Warframe, you willingly and legally accepted the fact that things in the game can and will change whether you like it or not. It was all there in the lengthy EULA that you probably skipped / scrolled through. Not anyone else's fault that some of you chose to ignore legal agreements because you all were in a hurry to get your gaming fix on.

TLDR: "We're letting you play OUR game, the contents of which can and will change over time and sometimes without warning. You're also not allowed to do certain things with our game. We're also not responsible for any investments you made in the game that you don't like. Don't agree to any of this? Then don't install and play our game."

Don't like certain changes? Too bad. You're allowed to offer criticism for sure, but you're certainly not entitled to your time and money back.

Your risk, your responsibility.

26 minutes ago, Senguash said:

The stats provided by de show that, while she is one of the more popular frames, she isn't by any stretch overused. 

The stats Rebecca showed on clearly indicated that Mesa Prime and Saryn Prime were the two most heavily used Warframes among mid to high level MR players, the both of them accounting for almost a third of all Warframes used.

27 minutes ago, Senguash said:

 I play a lot of missions and I'm lucky if I see her 1 in 10.  

Ah yes, the obligatory anecdotal "I don't see a problem so clearly there isn't a problem" argument.

So I guess all those players complaining about how most high level missions tend to have a Saryn or Saryn Prime in it that winds up dominating the kill board is just talking nonsense, right?

[IceColdHawk]

32 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

So I guess all those players complaining about how most high level missions tend to have a Saryn or Saryn Prime in it that winds up dominating the kill board is just talking nonsense, right?

Dominating the killboard? It's almost as if the frame with a kit dedicated for dps is doing it's job properly? That surely looks like a problem that needs to be fixed

Besides, aren't you just right now using an anecdotal argument as well now? Just because people complain about Saryn and their kills doesn't make them right either lol.

7 hours ago, (XB1)Hyperion Rexx said:

I'm constantly surprised at the nerf herders complaining saryn ruins their game play.   The stats provided by de show that, while she is one of the more popular frames, she isn't by any stretch overused.   Where are you seeing all these saryn's that are ruining your game?   I play a lot of missions and I'm lucky if I see her 1 in 10.  

In eso, yes, you'll see her most missions.  That's because she's far and away the best tool for that job.   If I have to put a nail in a bit of wood I will use a hammer as it's the best tool for the job.   I won't get rid of my hammer because my screwdriver feels left out or because someone using a screwdriver is upset because I'm able to put more nails in the bit of wood than they can.

When I was starting out in wf I used to see higher players in missions that destroyed enemies before I got a chance to kill anything.  This didn't upset me.  It gave me a purpose in the game, I wanted to be that powerful and learn the ways of the tenno.  We grind to become more powerful.  I'm now at a point where I can bring just about any loadout and I'll probably be top kills in most missions because I know what I'm doing and it seems lots of players don't.   That to me is the problem, low skill players who invest little in their gear expect to be able to perform to the same level as good/prepared players.  Saryn just gets called out because she is obviously powerful. 

 There will always be powerful tools, we can't nerf everything back to baseline in a futile attempt at making sure everyone gets the same number of kills.  We might as well only have 1 frame and 3 weapons in that case.  Even then, someone will still come out on top.  What then?

Respects my dude. Appreciate that honesty.

Edited December 4, 2019 by IceColdHawk

[Test-995]

10 hours ago, Violet_Xe said:

That would be called being selfish. I know that it's in canada but america's rule is your rights stop where they infringes on other's natural right. Your pursuit of happiness should not affect other's because of your own selfish desire. After all you can't kill someone because you feel like it and it makes you feel happy.

But yes there are issues with ESO and the game in general that should be fixed to make saryn and the game healthier overall.

Hey, but this is strange, with that logic you are trying to kill me to make you happy, even if you have the ability to make yourself happy (by playing with friend/solo) without killing me.

 

 

[(XBOX)Almighty Deity]

3 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

The stats Rebecca showed on clearly indicated that Mesa Prime and Saryn Prime were the two most heavily used Warframes among mid to high level MR players, the both of them accounting for almost a third of all Warframes used.

Ah yes, the obligatory anecdotal "I don't see a problem so clearly there isn't a problem" argument.

So I guess all those players complaining about how most high level missions tend to have a Saryn or Saryn Prime in it that winds up dominating the kill board is just talking nonsense, right?

   That's definitely not how statistics work. You can't simply round a number under 20% and claim it's just under 1/3rd. Saryn is sub-9%, and Mesa is below her. Inaros was right up there, too. I guess sandyboi doesn't get a mention for simply not dying? Those 3 may get you to ~25%. 

   Then you have to consider the flaws of this blanket means of measuring. You may have 2 Saryns in ESO in a random match but you'll rarely come across 2 Saryns normally. Chroma is pretty high there, too, but we all know that's simply for Eidolon capping.

   Yeah, no, no one is seeing a problem with less than 10% playing a decent frame. A lot less frames than secondaries, meaning the same parallels between Catchmoon and Saryn cannot be made. She isn't required, she isn't critically overused, and the particular minmaxed builds that give her damage is designed specifically for ESO, a flawed gametype to begin with.

   4 players to a lobby with less than 1/10 playing Saryn would be an exaggeration to say MOST missions tend to have her. How about Inaros? You'll see him just as often, but he rarely if ever uses any of his skills beyond 4 for 200 armor.

Edited December 4, 2019 by (XB1)Almighty Deity

[(PSN)The1stAzrael]

Here's the chart in question, in case anyone needed it. Although, there might be a second chart out there, that I've some how missed.

That spike in the middle of the chart is Saryn prime.

Looking over those number's again, I'm not sure what people are talking about when they say Inaros is as popular as Saryn and Chroma, when his usage is practically equal to Nidus, Octavia, and Ivara. It's been a year since these numbers were last shown, so it's probably safe to say his position might've dropped since the release of frames like Hyldrin and Wukong 2.0. Inaros is probably off the chopping block for now, since he's no longer the tankiest frame.

Edited December 5, 2019 by (PS4)The1stAzrael
added something

[Cubewano]

34 minutes ago, (XB1)Almighty Deity said:

   That's definitely not how statistics work. You can't simply round a number under 20% and claim it's just under 1/3rd. Saryn is sub-9%, and Mesa is below her. Inaros was right up there, too. I guess sandyboi doesn't get a mention for simply not dying? Those 3 may get you to ~25%. 

   Then you have to consider the flaws of this blanket means of measuring. You may have 2 Saryns in ESO in a random match but you'll rarely come across 2 Saryns normally. Chroma is pretty high there, too, but we all know that's simply for Eidolon capping.

   Yeah, no, no one is seeing a problem with less than 10% playing a decent frame. A lot less frames than secondaries, meaning the same parallels between Catchmoon and Saryn cannot be made. She isn't required, she isn't critically overused, and the particular minmaxed builds that give her damage is designed specifically for ESO, a flawed gametype to begin with.

   4 players to a lobby with less than 1/10 playing Saryn would be an exaggeration to say MOST missions tend to have her. How about Inaros? You'll see him just as often, but he rarely if ever uses any of his skills beyond 4 for 200 armor.

Can I ask what the general percentages from the chart are since you seem to have that information? And how you discerned them. Just did some simple measurements for the higher end of the chart and it seems Saryn (both variants) and Mesa (both variants) do at points together seem to acquire a near (actually slightly above maybe) third of the usage (.33977 though i tried to round down where i could to be generous so that's a low estimate) for that mr category so that statement could apply in certain instances. Overall of course it's probably lower, but a 20% usage between just the two doesn't seem wholly unreasonable with that in mind. I didn't do Inaros, but I'll keep that in mind if I dive in again for more estimates, though hopefully it seems you have done some work yourself so maybe I don't have to. 

Dispersion wise, it isn't really safe for us to say where those frames go without better data than personal conjecture, like you say you may encounter Saryn's commonly in ESO but nowhere else, but Saryn is probably the most consistent frame I run into in my typical gaming sessions and with no ESO inclusion. Similar with Mesa. I do feel it's unlikely that a any single mode would have a great deal of sway over a frames overall usage by itself, but of course we lack numbers on mission use dispersion for the game to know even that.

Looking forward to what extra information you have though.

[SpringRocker]

36 minutes ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

Here's the chart in question, in case anyone needed it. Although, there might be a second chart out there, that I've some how missed.

That spike in the middle of the chart is Saryn prime.

Looking over those number's again, I'm not sure what people are talking about when they say Inaros is as popular as Saryn and Chroma, when his usage is practically equal to Nidus, Octavia, and Ivara. It's been a year since these numbers were last shown, so it's probably safe to say his position might've dropped since the release of frames like Hyldrin and Wukong 2.0. Inaros is probably off the chopping block for now, since he's no longer the tankiest frame.

I question where all this data came from (I know you're not responsible for it, not saying you're skewing it).

When was the last time you've seen an Ivara in a game? When was the last time you've seen an Inaros in a game? I really doubt there's around as many Ivaras running around as Inaros.

[Cubewano]

54 minutes ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

Here's the chart in question, in case anyone needed it. Although, there might be a second chart out there, that I've some how missed.

That spike in the middle of the chart is Saryn prime.

Looking over those number's again, I'm not sure what people are talking about when they say Inaros is as popular as Saryn and Chroma, when his usage is practically equal to Nidus, Octavia, and Ivara. It's been a year since these numbers were last shown, so it's probably safe to say his position might've dropped since the release of frames like Hyldrin and Wukong 2.0. Inaros is probably off the chopping block for now, since he's no longer the tankiest frame.

I believe they are talking about this mess of a chart -

That came out last Devstream showing the usage rate frames across mrs

15 minutes ago, SpringRocker said:

I question where all this data came from (I know you're not responsible for it, not saying you're skewing it).

When was the last time you've seen an Ivara in a game? When was the last time you've seen an Inaros in a game? I really doubt there's around as many Ivaras running around as Inaros.

DE provides charts for these kinds of things from time to time, I believe the one Azrael posted is from a devstream just like the one I've supplied above. 

Edited December 5, 2019 by Cubewano

[SpringRocker]

2 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

I believe they are talking this mess of a chart -

That came out last Devstream showing the usage rate frames across mrs

DE provides charts for these kinds of things from time to time, I believe the one Azrael posted is from a devstream just like the one I've supplied above. 

Oh of course, what I meant is that the data itself seems off.

Going by the data it says that Ivara is around as common as Inaros. I can still count the amount of times I've even seen another Ivara while Inaros on the other hand is much more common.

Not saying you're wrong or the other guy is wrong, it just seems that the data that was provided to us is off a bit.