Regarding Pablo's recent stream about saryn

(PSN)AyinDygra · December 5, 2019

5 minutes ago, (XB1)Almighty Deity said:

It wasn't even in the top 10 in terms of DPS, but nothing. Most of the others that beat it were better SPECIFICALLY because they dealt with mobs better. Hate to tell you but the arca isn't that good... It's a mob killer too. Woo. Obsession with wide-arching non-focused damage guns is duly noted. User percentage and power have absolutely nothing to do with each other, but nice attempt to sneak that in. Moving on.

The only frame that would be used then would be hydroid because he has +100%. Khora has decent cc and utility, but nekros has very little value outside of his farming ability, effectively making the nerf disproportionately affect him in multiple ways. He's considered bad for tanking and is rarely used other than for farming, so no, you're wrong.

It really doesn't matter what you're going to argue about eHP, it's not going to be accurate, just like your statements about damage. Inaros is exclusively used simply because of his disgusting eHP and that's it. He's a lazy frame for lazy people. Literally every other tank requires some abilities to tank except him. The fractally wrong thing you've said about him especially is that it's mainly high MRs using it. It's no crutch or a training frame. He's literally a lazy frame. No abilities required. It's not hard to understand, is it? You're seriously going to argue with me on this of all things?

Nope on Saryn and meh on ESO. Leave it to rot. Saryn is fine. Her kit works well together and she kills. Rather have a powerful frame than a frame that can't do anything like she used to be. If you want to disagree I really don't care at this point. It's clear you're not seeing the same picture or really any at all it seems.

While I agree with most of this post, as an Inaros main, I must disagree with the lazy aspect you're labeling him with. He's my defacto, go-to melee frame, because he can soak up the damage needed to get in range of hit-scan hordes... then he can either eat the first one he reaches, or open a group to finishers with his pocket sand, and use his unlisted passive: "restore health on finisher" instead. While scarab armor can increase his durability, in most of the situations where I'd use it, there are nullifiers that make using it very short-lived and not worth the "build up time" of putting it back on after each melee kill in their bubbles. I have used both Devour and Scarab Armor's healing effects to support a team, and let them devour an enemy to restore their health, or let my swarm of scarabs do the job passively, like a Garuda health spike. The swarm can also be used as crowd control to lock down some enemies, as it spreads as enemies get near, and they're held as if in the burning status. (His tornado is mostly just for laughs, and I never use it tactically.)

While I suppose people could use him lazily as a gun platform shooting everything safely from a distance, he's a very active and not-at-all-lazy melee frame.

I will agree very strongly about the Arca Plasmor... while it's popular for its utility, AoE less-than-precise aiming needed, and destroying corpses for spy missions, its damage falls off at higher levels. It's almost unusable in open worlds (you need no-fall-off hit-scan stuff for stuff like Dargyns and laser turret towers.) I was happy when I got the Catchmoon to replace its trash clearing capabilities for stuff just outside my melee range (like flying enemies and crawling enemies, or an Ancient Healer behind a wall of nearly invincible chargers and flyers blocking my melee strikes), so I could switch out my Arca for a Rubico, thus, having all the utility I needed for the content I play (there are likely better options for other content as well, and better than the options I've chosen, because once I sink resources into something, I don't generally go looking for a replacement unless it has some utility feature that I like significantly more, having limited inventory space and not liking re-forma-ing stuff very often. So even if something were technically stronger or better than my current stuff, I generally don't go switching things up.)

I don't trust balancing by spreadsheet and popularity, because the factors that influence my decisions on what I use are almost never reflected in that data. You'd have to ask me directly why I use each thing... and some of it is irrational (because I like how it looks or sounds, or fits my Jaffa motif) or personal preference - fits my style of melee combat with minimal use of guns, and there are better options out there.

The whole Saryn thing boggles my mind that people would complain about a damage frame doing its job, killing stuff enmass. It's doing its job, and completing the objective. If that interferes with the objective (as someone mentioned potentially in survival missions - though I've NEVER seen this be the case - then, it's more a player thing, learning how to use the frame in that game mode, than a reason to nerf the frame.

I swear, some people want Warframe to simply be Destiny, with super long cooldown timers on abilities, and relying on their guns for killing, and cover for defense.

And appeals to DE for nerfs, even if it's just suggested to be a "tweak"... I don't trust to turn out that way... I expect a sledgehammer-to-kill-a-fly, like history has shown... so even if people are asking for reasonable changes, I don't trust the results of DE listening to them. (Maybe it all gets lost in translation of the community team not relating the actual requests properly, and just generalizing the comments, losing the nuances that make the tweaks just tweaks... I don't know, but it never seems to turn out well.)

SneakyErvin · December 5, 2019

3 hours ago, (XB1)Almighty Deity said:

It wasn't even in the top 10 in terms of DPS, but nothing. Most of the others that beat it were better SPECIFICALLY because they dealt with mobs better. Hate to tell you but the arca isn't that good... It's a mob killer too. Woo. Obsession with wide-arching non-focused damage guns is duly noted. User percentage and power have absolutely nothing to do with each other, but nice attempt to sneak that in. Moving on.

The only frame that would be used then would be hydroid because he has +100%. Khora has decent cc and utility, but nekros has very little value outside of his farming ability, effectively making the nerf disproportionately affect him in multiple ways. He's considered bad for tanking and is rarely used other than for farming, so no, you're wrong.

It really doesn't matter what you're going to argue about eHP, it's not going to be accurate, just like your statements about damage. Inaros is exclusively used simply because of his disgusting eHP and that's it. He's a lazy frame for lazy people. Literally every other tank requires some abilities to tank except him. The fractally wrong thing you've said about him especially is that it's mainly high MRs using it. It's no crutch or a training frame. He's literally a lazy frame. No abilities required. It's not hard to understand, is it? You're seriously going to argue with me on this of all things?

Nope on Saryn and meh on ESO. Leave it to rot. Saryn is fine. Her kit works well together and she kills. Rather have a powerful frame than a frame that can't do anything like she used to be. If you want to disagree I really don't care at this point. It's clear you're not seeing the same picture or really any at all it seems.

Of course Arca P isnt that good, it is a radiation based weapon with status. It still clears trash in a shot up to around level 100 at which point Catchmoon takes over and pushes it further due to having guaranteed crits, high crit damage and far better mod options. User percentage and power does have something to do with eachother, because power isnt just about dps. It is about ease of use etc. We wouldnt see a several hundred percent higher usage for a gun if there wasnt a specific tie to power behind it. We've had other wide beam weapons prior to Catchmoon and none have seen the same gap in usage that there was between catch and the rest of the secondaries. And that gap is because of pure power behind the weapon. It would also be great to see your claimed dps chart and the placement of catchmoon among the other weapons. Will the next comment claim it didnt clock in at top 15 either for dps?

Also no, when the looting nerfs happened we saw the exact opposite in dedicated farm groups. Hydroid took a massive step back because he would hinder multiple drops with his tentacles while a full group of nekros with "gore" weapons or three plus frost would have a far higher chance for double loot per kill due to two parts + 3-4 chances on each. And whoever considers nekros bad at tanking simply doesnt bother building him correctly for that. Or maybe I should say good at surviving, because we dont really have tanks here. He also has reliable useful cc/debuffing going on if you bother exploring that area for him in a tank build.

Exactly, just as I said, he is used for soaking up damage, that is it. I also didnt say he was a training frame, I said he was a crutch to lean on when you dont wanna bother learning what you actually need, in short, a lazy frame. Bringing Inaros to 99% of the content in the game is utterly pointless because the eHP overshoots what you actually need by far. Which means you give up alot of things that could actually benefit you more than having a eHP pool that will never get used. Hence why he is a crutch. If you have a hard time grasping what I mean look at it this way. eHP here is like resistance in an arpg. If level X requires you to have 30% resistance to hit the cap and cover versus potential debuffs you wont bring 40, 50 or 60% because you'd be overcapped and waste other things. That is pretty much what Inaros does in content where his eHP is several magnitudes beyond what the mobs can possibly inflict when it comes to damage.

And when exactly was Saryn a frame that couldnt kill? Oh you mean back when you actually had to be good at playing her and using the right loadout options. Yeah if you sucked at her you couldnt kill because you had no idea what to do to get the most out of her. That was far better because it actually rewarded player knowledge. Now it is just about hitting 1 and keeping 4 up constantly while squatting at a safe place. And of course I will disagree with you regarding Saryn, just as you disagree with me, that is the whole point of opinions. Or did you seriously take a seat and think you would "convert" my idea on Saryn when I've more or less stopped playing her completely since I see these things as problems? I dont even bring her to ESO anymore, because I know if another Saryn will be present only one of us will do anything beneficial to the group. That is why I bring Enox these days just to pop spores and have the other AoE frames build up the stacks.

Edited December 5, 2019 by SneakyErvin

(PSN)BabyBoi6769 · December 5, 2019

I made a similar post on Tactical Potato's video about Saryn Nerf

One way they could re-vamp the game mode is have a simaris clone boss in between waves and have a timer for it. If you fail in the time allowed you go on with a several penalty of enemies being buffed for not "being aggressive enough", but if you complete the boss encounter you get a integrity buff for 30 seconds each time. The boss could be unique to simaris as well. Since he's an older cephalon he may have enemy records from long long ago that we've never heard of. That's my take anyway. That way having saryn(s) won't guarantee anything. You could do this for both onslaught modes.

Lore wise it makes sense that Simaris would provide a harder variation of his experiment. You could say that he's sees our potential, but it's wanting. So then he provides a new variable: Bosses. These could be specific to only him. I'd imagine the lore would be he has found old records of enemies the tenno, warframes, grineer, corpus, and infested have fought or killed since the old war til now. Imagine if you will a corpus bounty hunter that dabbled in illegal technology somehow found himself in front of Simaris and he digitized him and suck him into the simulation. Let's also say this is Darvo's brother for giggles. If we have enemies like the Wolf just waiting to be discovered then Simaris could be the catalyst for this. Simaris "revives" that bounty hunter, now the grineer and other factions have bounty hunters.

Lastly, after we do this for a while, the last change would be that Simaris creates a digital based warframe that becomes the apex predator of the simulations. Able to kill much more efficiently than our warframes. That could be it's own quest and provides ample opportunity for Ordus to shine and get the other cephalons involved as well. Hell throw in Honhow's essence corrupting Simaris if you want. I could go on, but that's one big way Saryn's use in the onslaught system could be tamed. Make it so that using her is a gamble. Also make the bosses spawn on random intervals that way no one can prepare at all. Don't even give a list of "bosses to look forward to." just add them and let RNG do it's thing.

SpringRocker · December 5, 2019

5 hours ago, tzadquiel said:

ivara is a stealth frame. best way to play stealth is solo, numptie.

I'm an Ivara main. She has more to offer than solo play content, numptie.

Cubewano · December 6, 2019

21 hours ago, Violet_Xe said:

Argh this is so frustrating >.< Also sorry for the late response, life stuffs.

No, I'm not asking because of this specific warframe. She is one of many frames which I suggest content for and because she's popular. build content which either favors or doesn't favor her kit by silently pushing players away from her for said missions. She isn't incompatible with co op and does her job as DPS effectively as others in this thread have stated plenty of times. She is a dps and does dps. I've also brought up that she isn't unrivaled in dps and she has points of weakness so she isn't oppressive.
Would I want more frames to act like saryn? yes, yes I would in the fact they use all of her abilities and has build variety. She's a healthy concept with game modes where she excels like any other warframe. I'll carify again I'm not against a nerf directly to her but the changes being suggested have a high probability of crushing her imo and I'm not alone in this.

I'll give you specifics but if you want me to go in depth about all this then you're not gunna get it here. that's where I draw the line. Buff toxic and viral eximus to prevent viral and/or corrosive. Make new eximus which create an aura of -status% encouraging critical builds or vice versa. Make eximus which revive up to 3 times on death pushing players away from a nuke charge playstyle. Make new eximus which distort and make enemies harder to cast on or spread effects like invisibility auras. Make new enemies that ARE affected by CC but have resistances to damage. Make new AI and abilities for daily enemies. Make new health types that have either communities to said status or special quirks like a highly upgraded shield that is completely immune to status used on hyper elite corpus units. Make raids which focus on thrall hordes but also contain a focus on mission completion, objectives, and boss fights that have literally hundreds of millions of health. Radiation also turns saryn into the a backstabbing bish which means say a defense mission has a 100% chance of radiation, she's avoided at all costs like kohra or ember. Rework some missions, which need updates, such as defection, capture, excavation, and more which don't have nearly as much impact on killing. or perhaps make one that doesn't focus on killing at all like spy. make these missions have good rewards on par of quality with ESO. These all impact her in different ways than smacking her with the nerf bat, instead silently pushing players away from Saryn.
No I won't go through thousands of missions to gather and record data for you and you specifically. I've got other games/things I wanna play/do. I'm not the type of player who will go and gather 1000+ mission results because someone asks me to prove that any frame can be competitive against saryn. That's called being unreasonable and untrusting because in the end it's up to you whether you believe me or not. Even if you don't believe me that doesn't make me wrong, it just means you don't believe me.

Scramba are fine. However nullifiers are unfair giant bubbles which hurt CC just as much as DPS playstyles but less so DPS because DPS frames actually kill the nullifier creating said bubble. They are a universal boon and whatever they were intended for they obviously hit all of our abilities and put a focus more on weapons which is, guess what, daaaamaaaage. Not only do they encourage damage but because you can't shoot into those bubbles it also pushes frames to tanks that survive such damage with arcanes and base stats like Inaros, Wukong, and Nidus while CC and support get shafted.
I've also posted before about how nullifiers can be altered and changed to become fair. Some nullifiers can erase abilities but not bullets. some erase projectile powers but not nonprojectiles like cataclysm. I could go on but I'll simply generalize. Add conditions to color coded nullifiers for game fairness. Yet you seemingly skimmed over the fact that there are things deployed into the field which don't care about CC like sapping osprey traps.

Onto CC immunity. Tell me, what enemies are immune to CC again??? Orb Mothers and Raknoids "posed as challenging" // Eidolons, "arcanes" // Vomvalyst, "Eidolon Helpers" // Nullifiers and Demo Units "tanky everyday content in important missions" // Capture Targets "quick relic runs" // Lich "kuva guns" // Thralls "challenging". // Plague star "easy reskinned content for repeat rewards" // Arbitration Drones "fk all". How many enemies in our IMPORTANT content have and apply CC immunity? Quite alot and infact you'll not only see these enemies daily but taking other bosses into account almost every day. Many of these enemies won't care about CC or debuffs either.
Notice something? How many of these enemy areas do you see Saryn? No, you see Volt, Chroma, Mesa, Harrow, Revenant, Gauss, or others. She isn't perfect at all the content we care about and some players even say they don't see her all too often. The same goes for me, I don't usually see them.
Support capabilities thrived preS3.0 but that's the past. Warframe continued changing over time and the first steps of CC falling in popularity were already there. What is harrow and trinity to healing return, desecrate, energizing dash, and more? Tell me if the game slowly oppressed CC and these important enemies are immune to both CC and debuffs? what's left? Damage and tanking. If damage is gone... well, you know what happenes if it's all not dealt with at once. Even if it is I've already said It'll be one messy launch.

I have given a route, but I've left it open and flexible for DE and others to put their own spins and twists on it. Proposing a specific narrow route limits creativity and it'll most likely get ignored. my route is add content to the game which indirectly impact and silently pushes players away from content. Build content with representitives of their class LIKE the queen of ESO and the king of CC in mind. launch difficult content like suggested RAIDS PLEEEEASE. Yes those things, actual hard raids against a boss with hundreds of thousands of health and special abilities when you fight with 8 people, saryn will not be as viable there if it's built right. But guess what will be viable, CC and Support.
Yours very well might be easier but it'll be less streamlined and sloppy and focus on regression instead of progression. Slowly adding content allows for feedback and refinement. Adding all of this at once overloads the community and means DE needs to fix all of these things at once leading to oversights and ignoring some bugs because they're deemed less important. It's also not vague, it's open and flexible to allow DE's teams to work and concept and create because they like doing that. If our ideas won't fit their world then suggest a model and let them mold that model to their vision so DE can't hide behind the "it doesn't fit out idea of what warframe is meant to me" mantra.

She's a dps that empties rooms at a time with the most minimal of effort without having to even really target or be aware of most enemies, while leaving effectively no combat interactions for the rest of a squad. How do you figure a way to retain that behavior while making her cooperatively friendly? In most games that wouldn't even pass testing because of how just expressly over powered that is a power level, and how incompatible it is with an involved team environment. You have to afford other members in a group the opportunity to play for co-op to be a functional group experience, a map clearing spam bot that eliminates enemies before anyone has time to react themselves doesn't allow for that. And making more frames like that doesn't change the state, it just spreads the frequency of such an experience -which to be clear has nothing to do with having all useful abilities and everything to do with some of them being overtuned- all the while robbing playstyle choices which again you have noted as a thing that results from Saryn's power levels. You have still yet to explain why that impact is okay or healthy or desirable, despite constantly claiming it is, and I'm convinced it's because deep down you know it isn't something that can actually be rationally defended. It is bad design for a group environment, short and simple.

And why not here? This is an indepth discussion and you want to avoid specifics? Where does that lead? You still haven't even explained your actually game plan or why it is necessary. Why is Saryn the cut off for what can be nerfed? You say the rebalance isn't for her but look at the list of things you just provided, game rearranging things, that target specifically things she does. Creating new units to counter her. New status mechanics. Viral/Corrosive immunities. A enemy revive system which I don't even see how that's discourage nuking. Harder enemy targeting. Most of those issues don't exist for a majority of our weapon roster, it's just when intensified to the degree of frames like Saryn that they became a problem. Why is it better to redesign all of those things that function fine without her current tier of power than to just change her power tier to something reasonable? And it's all so convoluted too, how would you possibly balance so many factors in a randomized team environment with such an expansive and ever growing roster? And how would that come down on solo players, all these limitations elements to force blanket coverage? They'd have to be pretty harsh to work after all, especially if again you want to preserve Saryn power levels. Or DE's limited balancing team? How much of this even seems reasonable to juggle for a constant developing and shifting game, especially for the long term? How do you think all of that would work in the broader picture, so many overlapping balance mechanics?

Moving into immunities, I'm not even fully following what you are trying to say. Yes guns kill nullifiers, but all frames have guns, that isn't a leaning towards dps frames. If you think being able to use a gun makes a frame a dps, then all frames are dps frames. At most nullifiers lend themselves to tank frames, and yet all the same nukes are dominant.

I'm also not sure where you think I skimmed over anything, when did i write off ospreys and how are they relevant to the conversation? Do you think they make or break CC? This focus point confuses me.

Effectively everything you listed is also immune to nuke abilities, or renders them incredibly ineffective, are sparsely experienced in general content, and are retained to very specialized modes, which are all things I already noted so I'm not sure how you missed that. So you say those aspects will kill CC, but they clearly didn't kill nukes as they are expressly some of the most used and deemed over powered categories in the game, so where is rationale in that this stuff would kill CC when the very same application didn't do so to another category?

You've only just begun to show a route, and it seems immensely convoluted at best, nearing unmanageable, and still without an explanation why everything should change in such a way to preserve a select frames situation which would still in that state without change, be a problem.

(PSN)Silverback73 · December 6, 2019

4 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

I'm an Ivara main. She has more to offer than solo play content, numptie.

Numptie PHYTE, Lol.

But yes, Ivara is far more than most think. She just requires a bit of effort to learn. A novelty with most frames, I know😏.

Cubewano · December 6, 2019

16 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

Numptie PHYTE, Lol.

But yes, Ivara is far more than most think. She just requires a bit of effort to learn. A novelty with most frames, I know😏.

hopefully more people learn her glory with her prime incoming, praise be ivara.

Vyra · December 6, 2019

i just wish sprint/bullet jump would not break stealth...
Even Wisp is more stealthy and fast in movement ...not even speaking of LORD LOKI...

It really feels bad crawling in a spy while everyone else just runs... and when i arrived the mission is already over due to me not being able to run/bullet jump or parkour ...
I really hope her prime has this limitation removed...

OR let us just equip k-drives while and keep the stealth XD

Test-995 · December 6, 2019

8 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

I'm an Ivara main. She has more to offer than solo play content, numptie.

But according to your experience and actual data, most of people are using her only for solo.

Violet_Xe · December 6, 2019

Spoiler

4 hours ago, Cubewano said:

She's a dps that empties rooms at a time with the most minimal of effort without having to even really target or be aware of most enemies, while leaving effectively no combat interactions for the rest of a squad. How do you figure a way to retain that behavior while making her cooperatively friendly? In most games that wouldn't even pass testing because of how just expressly over powered that is a power level, and how incompatible it is with an involved team environment. You have to afford other members in a group the opportunity to play for co-op to be a functional group experience, a map clearing spam bot that eliminates enemies before anyone has time to react themselves doesn't allow for that. And making more frames like that doesn't change the state, it just spreads the frequency of such an experience -which to be clear has nothing to do with having all useful abilities and everything to do with some of them being overtuned- all the while robbing playstyle choices which again you have noted as a thing that results from Saryn's power levels. You have still yet to explain why that impact is okay or healthy or desirable, despite constantly claiming it is, and I'm convinced it's because deep down you know it isn't something that can actually be rationally defended. It is bad design for a group environment, short and simple.

Spoiler

4 hours ago, Cubewano said:

And why not here? This is an indepth discussion and you want to avoid specifics? Where does that lead? You still haven't even explained your actually game plan or why it is necessary. Why is Saryn the cut off for what can be nerfed? You say the rebalance isn't for her but look at the list of things you just provided, game rearranging things, that target specifically things she does. Creating new units to counter her. New status mechanics. Viral/Corrosive immunities. A enemy revive system which I don't even see how that's discourage nuking. Harder enemy targeting. Most of those issues don't exist for a majority of our weapon roster, it's just when intensified to the degree of frames like Saryn that they became a problem. Why is it better to redesign all of those things that function fine without her current tier of power than to just change her power tier to something reasonable? And it's all so convoluted too, how would you possibly balance so many factors in a randomized team environment with such an expansive and ever growing roster? And how would that come down on solo players, all these limitations elements to force blanket coverage? They'd have to be pretty harsh to work after all, especially if again you want to preserve Saryn power levels. Or DE's limited balancing team? How much of this even seems reasonable to juggle for a constant developing and shifting game, especially for the long term? How do you think all of that would work in the broader picture, so many overlapping balance mechanics?

I don't want to go in depth here because this isn't about my raid concepts. It's about saryn. I can reference small snippets and examples which affect her and that's what I did, but posting an entire list of possibilities would take ages of explaining and would take too much time to update and rewrite for this forum post. I'm tired and sleepy. So there's no need for me to dive into them anyways because that's not what the discussion is here for.
I've mentioned before that these changes will lead to a mixture of new and updated content which won't favor saryn. This means other warframes rise. I've said this multiple times. "my route is add content to the game which indirectly impacts and silently pushes players away from ~~content~~ Saryn" that was a typo my bad. shhhhhh nobody saw that.
My route isn't specifically focused on saryn. I leave it like this for multiple reasons. one of which is, as before, I leave it open for DE to flexibly work with and adapt to their world so they can't hide behind the shield of "that doesn't fit our world". If it doesn't fit, then mold it to fit. I also leave it like this because this isn't a discussion about "how to fix warframe's problems" rather it's how to fix saryn, if she even needs fixing. She doesn't need fixing, what she needs is an enemy like limbo and nullifiers, something that can shut her down. I'm not going to go in depth and post my ideas of how to counter the meta when it's not the point of discussion or the topic of the thread, infact it's against the rules to do so.

Hopefully for the last time I don't have to repeat this

On 2019-12-04 at 5:49 PM, Violet_Xe said:

my route is add content to the game which indirectly impacts and silently pushes players away from content. Build content with representatives of their class LIKE the queen of ESO and the king of CC in mind.

I've repeatedly stated I want to silently push players away from warframes like Saryn. I want to use her as a catalyst to spearhead change or as a representative for her AoE damage class. Build content with her kit in mind, to cover playstyles like hers, and have content play against her. Do this while keeping warframes like Vauban in mind who represent the pinnicle of CC. Juggling haha... this way lets you create ideas which favor certain playstyles over others and working this into content makes for great ways to take saryn down a peg without direct nerfs.
She doesn't need to be scaled down, other frames just need the rise in viability. Without a call to play those frames they'll forever remain left behind. And you can't say she's too powerful either because I, a multitasking durable support nezha, can be competitive and even overtake saryns on damage while focusing more on elements and animations that look cool putting me further at a disadvantage.
I'm also going to ignore the part about solo players because there are fixes for that. I'm not going to say them, saryn topic, but this is a Co-Op game. A multiplayer game meant to be played in squads of 4. You go at it knowing that so it's on you 100% of the way through the game.
The part about balance is important, but... should we not expect DE to fix their game as a developer? Even then it would be over time allowing for them to make balance changes accordingly to feedback which is why I said over time. I personally do think it would work. I could be wrong, I'm not a game dev and i don't know their exact resources... then again neither do you. If we've a way out of the loop and create a permanent fix, even if it takes time, I'll take that over a bandaid nerf to saryn which only brings another dps warframe like mirage to the forefront of survival and ESO.

Spoiler

4 hours ago, Cubewano said:

Moving into immunities, I'm not even fully following what you are trying to say. Yes guns kill nullifiers, but all frames have guns, that isn't a leaning towards dps frames. If you think being able to use a gun makes a frame a dps, then all frames are dps frames. At most nullifiers lend themselves to tank frames, and yet all the same nukes are dominant.
I'm also not sure where you think I skimmed over anything, when did i write off ospreys and how are they relevant to the conversation? Do you think they make or break CC? This focus point confuses me.
Effectively everything you listed is also immune to nuke abilities, or renders them incredibly ineffective, are sparsely experienced in general content, and are retained to very specialized modes, which are all things I already noted so I'm not sure how you missed that. So you say those aspects will kill CC, but they clearly didn't kill nukes as they are expressly some of the most used and deemed over powered categories in the game, so where is rationale in that this stuff would kill CC when the very same application didn't do so to another category?
You've only just begun to show a route, and it seems immensely convoluted at best, nearing unmanageable, and still without an explanation why everything should change in such a way to preserve a select frames situation which would still in that state without change, be a problem.

Enemies have become resistant to CC over time. Because many enemies making up our rewarding core content are immune to CC, CC is effectively useless. CC fails at so many aspects of the game DE puts value in that it's not worth using. How will CC ever help eidolon fights or orb mother fights? How will CC ever help arbitration when half the time they're immune to CC. So many things don't care about CC allowing damage and tanking rule supreme. What you want is to take away damage and ignore key problems resulting in tanks having monopoly over important content.
Also yeah guns do make CC somewhat irrelivent don't they? Why CC something if you could loose the tigris. Weapons are damage themselves after all. Why CC the enemy when your tanks can survive the impossible? If a gun kills the enemies before CC can take effect then there's no point in CC unless the situation calls for it, even then defense frames make good substitutes and often bring more to the table than CC frames.
I used sapping osprey as an example. CC has 0 effect on their mines. They continue to pulse with lethal energy to everything and no CC protects you from that. If DE is going to release more stuff like this, like say the sentient and their little tricks, then CC will fall further and nerfing saryn won't do anything but remove more viable frames from battle. Some CC can't even chain and lock the most basic sentient enemies battalyst and conculyst.

You're right they are special sectors but not everyone runs ESO and survival. How often do you see Saryn going up against these enemies? Now how much is CC seen in these areas? Now, follow me here. If Saryn isn't seen in any of these areas, and neither is CC. Then saryn obviously isn't the sole issue pushing CC down is she? You can't say Saryn is the thing that represses CC because that isn't true. Her removal will not bring CC back no matter how much you want to believe that. These enemies may be specific and the sectors even more so but a good portion of the player base will fight them on a daily basis making CC the last thing on their mind even if there wasn't a saryn. If situations do not call for CC it will remain forgotten.

Now, hopefully, for the very last time I can say this. My ideas will alter how many people play dps warframes, who don't need to be directly affected, meaning they can stay just as healthy, powerful, and useful as they currently are while other frames rise in popularity and other missions can get fame. You cannot imagine that DE can manage this in a couple months. This is why I said "Over a long time" Because this tackles several critical issues in the game.
Rather than nerf saryn, which would only result in mirage taking her place in ESO, and restart this nerf buff cycle why don't we try to find a solution. Even if this solution takes a year to make I'd be fine with waiting if DE can finally move on from an endless cycle of birth, nerf, and buff. If this gets fixed then YAY we get content made even faster than before. This plan not only gives them time for larger contents but makes it a flexible plan De can mold and bend to however they see fit. I have stated my route, both in this thread and outside of it. The only difference is how clear I am allowed to be due to the rules of the forums restricting me to only speaking about the topic at hand.

Edited December 6, 2019 by Violet_Xe
jesus christ... half my post got removed lmao. Ignore the first bit I'll hopefully get back to you on that tommorow.

(PSN)Momosu-chan · December 6, 2019

prepare your spores to proc magnetic boys&girls!!

tzadquiel · December 6, 2019

13 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

I'm an Ivara main. She has more to offer than solo play content, numptie.

yeaaaah thats not what I said, but great attempt at participation there bud.

SpringRocker · December 6, 2019

19 hours ago, tzadquiel said:

ivara is a stealth frame. best way to play stealth is solo, numptie.

10 minutes ago, tzadquiel said:

13 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

I'm an Ivara main. She has more to offer than solo play content, numptie.

yeaaaah thats not what I said, but great attempt at participation there bud.

Um, ok... Want a forma?

(PSN)AyinDygra · December 6, 2019

23 hours ago, tzadquiel said:

ivara is a stealth frame. best way to play stealth is solo, numptie.

Translation: The reason you don't see as many Ivara's in the game in parties, as the data is showing her usage is higher, is because they're running solo missions, obviously.

17 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

I'm an Ivara main. She has more to offer than solo play content, numptie.

Translation: I see someone trying to pidgeon-hole Ivara as solo frame, I must refute this and espouse her group play viability! (missing the point, about explaining the reason the data shows more Ivara use than people see in group play.)

No need for an argument here.

Ikusias · December 6, 2019

Saryn is broken as Hek, the kind of damage output she can get out of her spores is crazy and uncheked.

Except very specific missions/situations a Saryn in squad turns most missions in snorefests, because everyone else gets nothing to do

tzadquiel · December 6, 2019

44 minutes ago, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

No need for an argument here.

tyvm. cant be bothered sometimes

Cubewano · December 6, 2019

12 hours ago, Violet_Xe said:

Reveal hidden contents

Reveal hidden contents

I don't want to go in depth here because this isn't about my raid concepts. It's about saryn. I can reference small snippets and examples which affect her and that's what I did, but posting an entire list of possibilities would take ages of explaining and would take too much time to update and rewrite for this forum post. I'm tired and sleepy. So there's no need for me to dive into them anyways because that's not what the discussion is here for.
I've mentioned before that these changes will lead to a mixture of new and updated content which won't favor saryn. This means other warframes rise. I've said this multiple times. "my route is add content to the game which indirectly impacts and silently pushes players away from ~~content~~ Saryn" that was a typo my bad. shhhhhh nobody saw that.
My route isn't specifically focused on saryn. I leave it like this for multiple reasons. one of which is, as before, I leave it open for DE to flexibly work with and adapt to their world so they can't hide behind the shield of "that doesn't fit our world". If it doesn't fit, then mold it to fit. I also leave it like this because this isn't a discussion about "how to fix warframe's problems" rather it's how to fix saryn, if she even needs fixing. She doesn't need fixing, what she needs is an enemy like limbo and nullifiers, something that can shut her down. I'm not going to go in depth and post my ideas of how to counter the meta when it's not the point of discussion or the topic of the thread, infact it's against the rules to do so.

Hopefully for the last time I don't have to repeat this

I've repeatedly stated I want to silently push players away from warframes like Saryn. I want to use her as a catalyst to spearhead change or as a representative for her AoE damage class. Build content with her kit in mind, to cover playstyles like hers, and have content play against her. Do this while keeping warframes like Vauban in mind who represent the pinnicle of CC. Juggling haha... this way lets you create ideas which favor certain playstyles over others and working this into content makes for great ways to take saryn down a peg without direct nerfs.
She doesn't need to be scaled down, other frames just need the rise in viability. Without a call to play those frames they'll forever remain left behind. And you can't say she's too powerful either because I, a multitasking durable support nezha, can be competitive and even overtake saryns on damage while focusing more on elements and animations that look cool putting me further at a disadvantage.
I'm also going to ignore the part about solo players because there are fixes for that. I'm not going to say them, saryn topic, but this is a Co-Op game. A multiplayer game meant to be played in squads of 4. You go at it knowing that so it's on you 100% of the way through the game.
The part about balance is important, but... should we not expect DE to fix their game as a developer? Even then it would be over time allowing for them to make balance changes accordingly to feedback which is why I said over time. I personally do think it would work. I could be wrong, I'm not a game dev and i don't know their exact resources... then again neither do you. If we've a way out of the loop and create a permanent fix, even if it takes time, I'll take that over a bandaid nerf to saryn which only brings another dps warframe like mirage to the forefront of survival and ESO.

Enemies have become resistant to CC over time. Because many enemies making up our rewarding core content are immune to CC, CC is effectively useless. CC fails at so many aspects of the game DE puts value in that it's not worth using. How will CC ever help eidolon fights or orb mother fights? How will CC ever help arbitration when half the time they're immune to CC. So many things don't care about CC allowing damage and tanking rule supreme. What you want is to take away damage and ignore key problems resulting in tanks having monopoly over important content.
Also yeah guns do make CC somewhat irrelivent don't they? Why CC something if you could loose the tigris. Weapons are damage themselves after all. Why CC the enemy when your tanks can survive the impossible? If a gun kills the enemies before CC can take effect then there's no point in CC unless the situation calls for it, even then defense frames make good substitutes and often bring more to the table than CC frames.
I used sapping osprey as an example. CC has 0 effect on their mines. They continue to pulse with lethal energy to everything and no CC protects you from that. If DE is going to release more stuff like this, like say the sentient and their little tricks, then CC will fall further and nerfing saryn won't do anything but remove more viable frames from battle. Some CC can't even chain and lock the most basic sentient enemies battalyst and conculyst.

You're right they are special sectors but not everyone runs ESO and survival. How often do you see Saryn going up against these enemies? Now how much is CC seen in these areas? Now, follow me here. If Saryn isn't seen in any of these areas, and neither is CC. Then saryn obviously isn't the sole issue pushing CC down is she? You can't say Saryn is the thing that represses CC because that isn't true. Her removal will not bring CC back no matter how much you want to believe that. These enemies may be specific and the sectors even more so but a good portion of the player base will fight them on a daily basis making CC the last thing on their mind even if there wasn't a saryn. If situations do not call for CC it will remain forgotten.

Now, hopefully, for the very last time I can say this. My ideas will alter how many people play dps warframes, who don't need to be directly affected, meaning they can stay just as healthy, powerful, and useful as they currently are while other frames rise in popularity and other missions can get fame. You cannot imagine that DE can manage this in a couple months. This is why I said "Over a long time" Because this tackles several critical issues in the game.
Rather than nerf saryn, which would only result in mirage taking her place in ESO, and restart this nerf buff cycle why don't we try to find a solution. Even if this solution takes a year to make I'd be fine with waiting if DE can finally move on from an endless cycle of birth, nerf, and buff. If this gets fixed then YAY we get content made even faster than before. This plan not only gives them time for larger contents but makes it a flexible plan De can mold and bend to however they see fit. I have stated my route, both in this thread and outside of it. The only difference is how clear I am allowed to be due to the rules of the forums restricting me to only speaking about the topic at hand.

How did we arrive at raid concepts? This was in response to asking for more clarity on your actual game plan for this supposedly sweeping game evolution that would make all content diverse and engaging and ever complex and heck create peace on earth it seems. That's what I want shared in depth, not raid concepts that would sweep up perhaps a tenth of the games active base in the best of conditions.

And you know what else wouldn't favor Saryn so much without including a bunch of convoluted rng mechanics that tear into other functional systems making a complete mess of the games balance? Just nerfing her into a reasonable place. I asked before so I'll ask again, how do you think all those counters you listed would function for the over all game when so much of it is only a problem for a select few? How it would impact solo play? How it would come down on DE's staff and limited resources to juggle so many pointed modifiers? How it fits into a constantly shifting and growing game and how manageable it would be in the long run? It's a rather restrictive list that requires a lot of precision what you asked, and seems rather inflexible, you have to consider how that comes down on the rest of the game when mentioning it, not just how it comes down on Saryn just for that sake of indirectness.

Saryn also already has something like nullifiers, they're called nullifiers.

Also why does fixing her have to be so silent and indirect? Why does effectively the image of how she is changed matter if she winds up weaker all the same? It seems like a very convoluted and childish reasoning to do so much extra work just to avoid being direct about what is ultimately being done.

DE also cannot possibly create content specific to each frames power range with specific counters, again that would be highly convoluted and effectively impossible to keep with on scale to the level of frame and weapon diversity for the game, if that's the direction you think we should go. And to extend that into a largely randomized co-operative environment assuming you get past the explicit work force hurdles, that's just a whole other level of incompatible to deal with. How would you have these specified counters work in such an environment? Would you start regulating what frames matchmake with which others to make such a system work? How would that impede matchmaking availability/time as is pivotal for a live service game? How would affect players freedom of choice?

I'd also greatly appreciate if you didn't ignore my points, so no, please do address solo play, because that's an important matter to the game as well, near 20% of gameplay is done solo, that's a sizable chunk of people to just not discuss the conditions of in relation to your sweeping changes. Even DE recognizes despite this game being co-op that it should be able to appeal to solo play to a decent extent because its generally only a boon for them, and the game is meant to be fairly casual. Outside highly endgame activities DE have always kept solo play an accessible side option of play, and with those numbers I can somewhat appreciate why, so again do address their part in this whole thing.

As to DE fixing their game, nobody said they shouldn't. I'm simply questioning the effectiveness of your don't nerf just remake the game rationale to keep power levels like Saryn from direct changes.

Yes enemies have become resistant to CC by being made resistant to CC, that feels fairly obvious. The impact of those immunities in overall play though you keep avoiding addressing, again and again and again, so to beat this dead horse some more, why is this different for cc than it is nukes when they have largely the same application/impact? Nullifiers existed before and after nukes started creeping up in power, CC did fine and dandy until the creeping, why? Because enemies need managing when they aren't all dying in an instant, which is what CC is good for, and without map emptying nukes that comes back in a style a reasonable bit. And aint no gun that can empty several rooms, or even a room, in an instant and without having to face and target enemies with a limited response time per being operated by humans.

Frames like Saryn dominate a large portion of the game leaving room for nothing less than them, change that and there is room for others. And maybe DE can even lean back on some of the restrictions in other more specific modes since a more balanced and manageable state would start to arise for those frames. Less immunities and what not.

Beyond that, your ideas would change how people play certainly, in what way is unclear because I'm still waiting on the full plan since what you've given is clearly not enough on its own. They also don't leave the frames as "healthy and powerful" as they are seemingly, because its a lot of restrictions that curb their effectiveness and application, which is the only spot of reason in all this, despite it still being far too convoluted over just a direct addressing of the problem. You also understate how long this would all take, what you're asking for is effectively a redesign of the games entire approach to combat, enemy design, co-op design, and weapon balance, which would take many many years to achieve even as a focused effort, which is again not an option for a live service game, so maybe something would come by 2025 with who knows how much compromise which is rather not ideal to leave the game imbalanced for that long, all to not nerf a handful of frames and possibly break the rest of the game. And no when it is finished that doesn't put DE out of the wood work unless they stop development on the game right after, because so long as continued additions to the games balance occur balance adjustments will continue to be needed for the game. This isn't an end all solution, that isn't a real thing.

Edited December 6, 2019 by Cubewano

Violet_Xe · December 6, 2019

1 hour ago, Cubewano said:

How did we arrive at raid concepts? This was in response to asking for more clarity on your actual game plan for this supposedly sweeping game evolution that would make all content diverse and engaging and ever complex. That's what I want shared in depth, not raid concepts that would sweep up perhaps a tenth of the games active base in the best of conditions.

Well you would know why had the first half of my post not been removed. -.- yey. I'll be avoiding that organized shortening mechanic from now on I guess.But to share, It only makes sense if I go in depth about my raids/eximus ideas and the situations they put you under. But due to the rules of the forums I'm not allowed to do that. I can say it would make it engaging and complex but I can't say anything further beyond giving specific short examples related to Saryn because this is her thread.

Spoiler

1 hour ago, Cubewano said:

And you know what else wouldn't favor Saryn so much without including a bunch of convoluted rng mechanics that tear into other functional systems making a complete mess of the games balance? Just nerfing her into a reasonable place. I asked before so I'll ask again, how do you think all those counters you listed would function for the over all game when so much of it is only a problem for a select few? How it would impact solo play? How it would come down on DE's staff and limited resources to juggle so many pointed modifiers? How it fits into a constantly shifting and growing game and how manageable it would be in the long run? It's a rather restrictive list that requires a lot of precision what you asked, and seems rather inflexible, you have to consider how that comes down on the rest of the game when mentioning it, not just how it comes down on Saryn just for that sake of indirectness.

Saryn also already has something like nullifiers, they're called nullifiers.

Also why does fixing her have to be so silent and indirect? Why does effectively the image of how she is changed matter if she winds up weaker all the same? It seems like a very convoluted and childish reasoning to do so much extra work just to avoid being direct about what is ultimately being done.

DE also cannot possibly create content specific to each frames power range with specific counters, again that would be highly convoluted and effectively impossible to keep with on scale to the level of frame and weapon diversity for the game, if that's the direction you think we should go. And to extend that into a largely randomized co-operative environment assuming you get past the explicit work force hurdles, that's just a whole other level of incompatible to deal with. How would you have these specified counters work in such an environment? Would you start regulating what frames matchmake with which others to make such a system work? How would that impede matchmaking availability/time as is pivotal for a live service game? How would affect players freedom of choice?

I'd also greatly appreciate if you didn't ignore my points, so no, please do address solo play, because that's an important matter to the game as well, near 20% of gameplay is done solo, that's a sizable chunk of people to just not discuss the conditions of in relation to your sweeping changes. Even DE recognizes despite this game being co-op that it should be able to appeal to solo play to a decent extent because its generally only a boon for them, and the game is meant to be fairly casual. Outside highly endgame activities DE have always kept solo play an accessible side option of play, and with those numbers I can somewhat appreciate why, so again do address their part in this whole thing.

As to DE fixing their game, nobody said they shouldn't. I'm simply questioning the effectiveness of your don't nerf just remake the game rationale to keep power levels like Saryn from direct changes.

Yes enemies have become resistant to CC by being made resistant to CC, that feels fairly obvious. The impact of those immunities in overall play though you keep avoiding addressing, again and again and again, so to beat this dead horse some more, why is this different for cc than it is nukes when they have largely the same application/impact? Nullifiers existed before and after nukes started creeping up in power, CC did fine and dandy until the creeping, why? Because enemies need managing when they aren't all dying in an instant, which is what CC is good for, and without map emptying nukes that comes back in a style a reasonable bit. And aint no gun that can empty several rooms, or even a room, in an instant and without having to face and target enemies with a limited response time per being operated by humans.

Frames like Saryn dominate a large portion of the game leaving room for nothing less than them, change that and there is room for others. And maybe DE can even lean back on some of the restrictions in other more specific modes since a more balanced and manageable state would start to arise for those frames. Less immunities and what not.

Beyond that, your ideas would change how people play certainly, in what way is unclear because I'm still waiting on the full plan since what you've given is clearly not enough on its own. They also don't leave the frames as "healthy and powerful" as they are seemingly, because its a lot of restrictions that curb their effectiveness and application, which is the only spot of reason in all this, despite it still being far too convoluted over just a direct addressing of the problem. You also understate how long this would all take, what you're asking for is effectively a redesign of the games entire approach to combat, enemy design, co-op design, and weapon balance, which would take many many years to achieve even as a focused effort, which is again not an option for a live service game, so maybe something would come by 2025 with who knows how much compromise which is rather not ideal to leave the game imbalanced for that long, all to not nerf a handful of frames and possibly break the rest of the game. And no when it is finished that doesn't put DE out of the wood work unless they stop development on the game right after, because so long as continued additions to the games balance occur balance adjustments will continue to be needed for the game. This isn't an end all solution, that isn't a real thing.

I will say it again.... because it seems you can't see this. I'm not allowed to say anything other than on Saryn. The ones I gave should be obvious how they affect Saryn. I have eximus for other counters but this is not the place for those. I can literally ONLY GIVE YOU THOSE EXIMUS AND SITUATIONS.
1. Stay on-topic, be constructive and use descriptive Topic titles. Don’t rage/rant post, name and shame, have misleading topic titles, post spam, advertisements, unreleased Design Council information, pornography or any other inappropriate, offensive or irrelevant content to the Forums in text, image, or video form. We will delete/edit it, and there will be consequences as per our warnings.
2. This would not only count as maybe advertising but it wouldn't be on topic.
It is not juggling because for the last time it's taking place over a long time. This is on them for letting issues like this come up in the first place. If they mess up they take what's coming to them or let the game rot. That's what devs have to deal with like it or not. I'm offering them a way out which is flexible and left open to interpretation on purpose. You cannot ever ask for better than that.
It feels like you're just ignoring this. Saryn is not unrivaled, volt, mirage, and others can deal damage and wipe ESO and survivals just like she can if not quicker. Not only that she's less useful than those rivals in other areas. Nerfing her would result in mirage taking her place and we've got the same problem again. You want to nerf a warframe that's fine and flourishing in an area where she's meant to excel.
1. Look if you nerf saryn, mirage takes her place. Then nerf mirage and volt takes her place. this will go on and on and on until nobody has damage left because this is how humans work. We move onto what's easiest and the most useful next. If your only option is nerf nerf nerf then you won't make any progress in the game. All the while this is happening you see tanks remain in the same dominant powerful position.
No, Saryn doesn't care about nullifiers. her spores go around nullifiers. They aren't a hard counter to her play style like limbo's cataclysm. He needs cataclysm for a lot of his builds. Saryn won't care if 2-3 nullifiers are on the field as long as 1 enemy has spores on them. That's not a hard counter or an enemy. Also by enemy I don't mean specifically an enemy. Whatever form, mission, or ally it may take the shape of it needs to dampen her popularity in some way. Nerfing does not supply her with such an enemy.
Silent and direct because she's fine as is. No she doesn't get weaker, she just becomes less viable. CC is just as powerful as it was in the past but it has less value. value and power are different things.
You're right they can't custom tailor content to specific frames. But what about nerfing elementals like viral and corrosive applies to Saryn only? no this would shatter the meta and make people scramble to see what's good only to find that other eximus, which I cannot describe, counter that too. it's all up to play style and preference. couple that with situations to bend and favor some play styles over others and we have a diverse variety of everything to play with. positives and negatives on all sides.
You're right, solo play is always kept accessible just like with these changes. That does not mean our game wasn't developed with group play in mind. If solo players want to play then fine, it just means it'll be much harder. Who knows that may be what they want given most solo players run the most unkillable warframes. But why talk solo play when our discussion is Saryn and how she "supposedly" breaks co op content. That doesn't mean i didn't consider solo when creating the ideas, but going solo is on them, not us.
The effect of my indirect nerfs through additions not only adds content, but dampens Saryn's viability and increases build variety. Is that not effective? It's either that or nerf Saryn, then nerf Mirage, then nerf Volt, then nerf whoever's next. You'll just get yourself in an endless loop and damage perfectly fine warframes. Think about it you want to nerf Saryn because she's too good when mirage can out damage and rival Saryn. So by that right mirage is liable to be nerfed too. I don't think I've heard a "nerf mirage" since her Simulor days. Brozime, roster 2019 and 18 kept her at B when even saying "she doesn't have a lot going for her". He later goes onto Saryn saying that her weaknesses are literally giant boss fights. She is not overly oppressive, just a fantastic warframe.
That's in the past. Not modern times. enemies can not only ignore CC but deal such heavy damage it's useless. CC is meant to help lock down and secure. if it fails at it's job that's already a massive undercut and even more if it's job is less important because killing hordes is a good portion of the game. By default it's simply less important. Why would anybody play CC to lock down an area that doesn't need to be locked down, why not just survive as a tank instead and deal damage with weapons. Raids were the best showcase and those got removed and thus Vauban slipped and faded into the abyss until his rework. Cutting damage won't bring CC back. Mission types and reworks will. New mechanics and situations will.
Saryn dominates a large portion of the game because a large portion of the game is meant to be dominated by Saryn's specific role. If Saryn has a super specific role then it should come as no surprise she's powerful in missions that fit that specific role. The issue is the lack of reward in areas that don't involve Saryn's super specific role. DE is just terrible at designing that way. It gives the illusion that she oppresses others when she doesn't, DE is the thing oppressing others with the lack of content favoring other playstyles.

Look I cannot give you a full plan. because the full plan doesn't exist. The full plan is made with holes for DE to slot things into. You know, like a child's toy with shapes to fit in except it's malleable and modifiable for DE's liking. The end result is always the same but DE can go about it however they want at a slow refining pace. I cannot give you many details because those details don't fit into this discussion.
Your idea of "address the problem directly" is a band aid. I've repeated this so many times but another frame will just jump up and claim Saryn's crown and there'll be outcry about them too. Will the same thing happen? probably. This might be a discussion about "nerf volt's discharge it kills too fast" despite it's use as utility at higher levels.

I may actually may not have been specific on this particular note so if this is where our misunderstanding has been then my bad. What I am asking for are specific changes which cover a large area of the game. I don't want weapon balance changes. What I do want are specific additions to the game that affect how players approach the game. That alone would alter how players mode weapons, mod waframes, pick warframes, and more. It's not me asking for dramatic shifts of stats or hundreds of enemies but specific additions that make players think differently.
it's not directly shifting enemy balance. It's not DE taking co op design into their own hands, it's them changing the game on the enemies side and letting us adapt how we see fit. They use the current systems in place to change the game. They don't have to make so many new systems.

Edited December 6, 2019 by Violet_Xe
Forgot to run spellchecks. soz. fixed alot of them so hopefully it doesn't look as dumb.

BethTheBean · December 7, 2019

On 2019-12-02 at 10:27 PM, --C--Nehra said:

Only one question? Will I get my umbral forma on Saryn back if nerf happened? Or should I use this as a lesson to never put umbral forma on any decent frame that might be on the nerf radar??

On 2019-12-02 at 10:44 PM, --C--Nehra said:

Whatever.... I put 2 umbral forma on her, and now I am mad at myself and at Pablo too for giving me this worry! XD, now I wouldn't even place my next umrbal forma on Inaros Prime when he drops, because apparently people are venting at him for being all tanky and naught else too over at forums.

You should never place an umbral forma, unless you're going to use all 3 umbral mods and/or you're going to add primed mods as well. What you SHOULD get is a smack with a cold mackerel!

I jest, of course. I put an umbral forma in my Mirage Prime, because I didn't want to forma the other slots. :wink:

On 2019-12-02 at 10:25 PM, 844448 said:

Well, we have this thread about Pablo's stream regarding saryn, so I'll step in and put my opinions

From what I see from saryn, there are several things that makes her spores to be a viable solo ESO as listed

1. Spores scale up until a cap which is very high for an ability that can be left unattended and will stay running rampant with 280% range as long as there's an enemy that can be infected on range while other abilities need some management and don't reach that high

Based on wiki, the hard cap is 100,000 which is pretty absurd considering most abilities can't do more than 2000 if used alone (correct me if I'm wrong) and you can reach it by simply sitting somewhere letting the outbreak do the job

Possible fix I can think for it

a. From that thread, it's said the range will be fixed so overextended build will be not so important

b. I think the damage cap should be way lower than that since 100,000 damage per second when you can be somewhere else is too high. The spores won't spread if enemies die from DoT but the nuke is the spores instead of miasma when you keep it long enough so I think it should be more to utility or nuke fuel

1,000 damage per second would be more in line so it's not a one ability show

2. Spores status chance.is lowered to 15%, this is something is strongly refuse because I use spores as armor stripping ability instead of nuke so I think it's fine to have as a preparation phase before jumping into the battlefield and 15% status chance will hurt a lot for my 200% strength umbra saryn

Anything else you want to add?

Label me as the "black sheep", but I don't enjoy Saryn's playstyle. Because of this, I can't add anything new to this topic.

However, I find myself in agreement of your post. If the spore's damage cap was that insanely high, then it should take a dramatic cut. Nothing higher than 3000, should keep her as a good warframe without being OP.

--SEFP--IonelSenpai · December 7, 2019

On 2019-12-04 at 9:12 AM, bibmobello said:

Maybe there are new players unable to play because they can't even see the enemies and just quit the game?

maybe they should try to set a difficulty depending on the party's members count this would be sweet

MonsterOfMyOwn · December 7, 2019

they introduced "Enemy level multiplier" for some frames power, I think that it could fit to Saryn.

Enemy Level Multiplier = ceil(Enemy Level ÷ 10). The multiplier only increases after 1 level past the per-10-levels mark (e.g. levels 11, 21, 31, 41, etc).

Current damage output is OK for lvl 60+, so just "divide by 6" the base damage and multiply it by the Enemy Level multiplier.

Awazx · December 7, 2019

Le 02/12/2019 à 21:27, --C--Nehra a dit :

Only one question? Will I get my umbral forma on Saryn back if nerf happened?

No.

Le 02/12/2019 à 21:27, --C--Nehra a dit :

Or should I use this as a lesson to never put umbral forma on any decent frame that might be on the nerf radar??

Yes.

bibmobello · December 7, 2019

On 2019-12-05 at 3:49 PM, tzadquiel said:

ivara is a stealth frame. best way to play stealth is solo, numptie.

There is no fun to play solo and if you are unable to play ivara in a pub squad then it's better you use another frame.

Cubewano · December 7, 2019

On 2019-12-06 at 1:44 PM, Violet_Xe said:

Well you would know why had the first half of my post not been removed. -.- yey. I'll be avoiding that organized shortening mechanic from now on I guess.But to share, It only makes sense if I go in depth about my raids/eximus ideas and the situations they put you under. But due to the rules of the forums I'm not allowed to do that. I can say it would make it engaging and complex but I can't say anything further beyond giving specific short examples related to Saryn because this is her thread.

I will say it again.... because it seems you can't see this. I'm not allowed to say anything other than on Saryn. The ones I gave should be obvious how they affect Saryn. I have eximus for other counters but this is not the place for those. I can literally ONLY GIVE YOU THOSE EXIMUS AND SITUATIONS.
Stay on-topic, be constructive and use descriptive Topic titles. Don’t rage/rant post, name and shame, have misleading topic titles, post spam, advertisements, unreleased Design Council information, pornography or any other inappropriate, offensive or irrelevant content to the Forums in text, image, or video form. We will delete/edit it, and there will be consequences as per our warnings.

This would not only count as maybe advertising but it wouldn't be on topic.

It is not juggling because for the last time it's taking place over a long time. This is on them for letting issues like this come up in the first place. If they mess up they take what's coming to them or let the game rot. That's what devs have to deal with like it or not. I'm offering them a way out which is flexible and left open to interpretation on purpose. You cannot ever ask for better than that.

It feels like you're just ignoring this. Saryn is not unrivaled, volt, mirage, and others can deal damage and wipe ESO and survivals just like she can if not quicker. Not only that she's less useful than those rivals in other areas. Nerfing her would result in mirage taking her place and we've got the same problem again. You want to nerf a warframe that's fine and flourishing in an area where she's meant to excel.
Look if you nerf saryn, mirage takes her place. Then nerf mirage and volt takes her place. this will go on and on and on until nobody has damage left because this is how humans work. We move onto what's easiest and the most useful next. If your only option is nerf nerf nerf then you won't make any progress in the game. All the while this is happening you see tanks remain in the same dominant powerful position.

No, Saryn doesn't care about nullifiers. her spores go around nullifiers. They aren't a hard counter to her play style like limbo's cataclysm. He needs cataclysm for a lot of his builds. Saryn won't care if 2-3 nullifiers are on the field as long as 1 enemy has spores on them. That's not a hard counter or an enemy. Also by enemy I don't mean specifically an enemy. Whatever form, mission, or ally it may take the shape of it needs to dampen her popularity in some way. Nerfing does not supply her with such an enemy.

Silent and direct because she's fine as is. No she doesn't get weaker, she just becomes less viable. CC is just as powerful as it was in the past but it has less value. value and power are different things.

You're right they can't custom tailor content to specific frames. But what about nerfing elementals like viral and corrosive applies to Saryn only? no this would shatter the meta and make people scramble to see what's good only to find that other eximus, which I cannot describe, counter that too. it's all up to play style and preference. couple that with situations to bend and favor some play styles over others and we have a diverse variety of everything to play with. positives and negatives on all sides.

You're right, solo play is always kept accessible just like with these changes. That does not mean our game wasn't developed with group play in mind. If solo players want to play then fine, it just means it'll be much harder. Who knows that may be what they want given most solo players run the most unkillable warframes. But why talk solo play when our discussion is Saryn and how she "supposedly" breaks co op content. That doesn't mean i didn't consider solo when creating the ideas, but going solo is on them, not us.

The effect of my indirect nerfs through additions not only adds content, but dampens Saryn's viability and increases build variety. Is that not effective? It's either that or nerf Saryn, then nerf Mirage, then nerf Volt, then nerf whoever's next. You'll just get yourself in an endless loop and damage perfectly fine warframes. Think about it you want to nerf Saryn because she's too good when mirage can out damage and rival Saryn. So by that right mirage is liable to be nerfed too. I don't think I've heard a "nerf mirage" since her Simulor days. Brozime, roster 2019 and 18 kept her at B when even saying "she doesn't have a lot going for her". He later goes onto Saryn saying that her weaknesses are literally giant boss fights. She is not overly oppressive, just a fantastic warframe.

That's in the past. Not modern times. enemies can not only ignore CC but deal such heavy damage it's useless. CC is meant to help lock down and secure. if it fails at it's job that's already a massive undercut and even more if it's job is less important because killing hordes is a good portion of the game. By default it's simply less important. Why would anybody play CC to lock down an area that doesn't need to be locked down, why not just survive as a tank instead and deal damage with weapons. Raids were the best showcase and those got removed and thus Vauban slipped and faded into the abyss until his rework. Cutting damage won't bring CC back. Mission types and reworks will. New mechanics and situations will.

The effect of my indirect nerfs through additions not only adds content, but dampens Saryn's viability and increases build variety. Is that not effective? It's either that or nerf Saryn, then nerf Mirage, then nerf Volt, then nerf whoever's next. You'll just get yourself in an endless loop and damage perfectly fine warframes. Think about it you want to nerf Saryn because she's too good when mirage can out damage and rival Saryn. So by that right mirage is liable to be nerfed too. I don't think I've heard a "nerf mirage" since her Simulor days. Brozime, roster 2019 and 18 kept her at B when even saying "she doesn't have a lot going for her". He later goes onto Saryn saying that her weaknesses are literally giant boss fights. She is not overly oppressive, just a fantastic warframe.

That's in the past. Not modern times. enemies can not only ignore CC but deal such heavy damage it's useless. CC is meant to help lock down and secure. if it fails at it's job that's already a massive undercut and even more if it's job is less important because killing hordes is a good portion of the game. By default it's simply less important. Why would anybody play CC to lock down an area that doesn't need to be locked down, why not just survive as a tank instead and deal damage with weapons. Raids were the best showcase and those got removed and thus Vauban slipped and faded into the abyss until his rework. Cutting damage won't bring CC back. Mission types and reworks will. New mechanics and situations will.

Saryn dominates a large portion of the game because a large portion of the game is meant to be dominated by Saryn's specific role. If Saryn has a super specific role then it should come as no surprise she's powerful in missions that fit that specific role. The issue is the lack of reward in areas that don't involve Saryn's super specific role. DE is just terrible at designing that way. It gives the illusion that she oppresses others when she doesn't, DE is the thing oppressing others with the lack of content favoring other playstyles.

Look I cannot give you a full plan. because the full plan doesn't exist. The full plan is made with holes for DE to slot things into. You know, like a child's toy with shapes to fit in except it's malleable and modifiable for DE's liking. The end result is always the same but DE can go about it however they want at a slow refining pace. I cannot give you many details because those details don't fit into this discussion.
Your idea of "address the problem directly" is a band aid. I've repeated this so many times but another frame will just jump up and claim Saryn's crown and there'll be outcry about them too. Will the same thing happen? probably. This might be a discussion about "nerf volt's discharge it kills too fast" despite it's use as utility at higher levels.

I may actually may not have been specific on this particular note so if this is where our misunderstanding has been then my bad. What I am asking for are specific changes which cover a large area of the game. I don't want weapon balance changes. What I do want are specific additions to the game that affect how players approach the game. That alone would alter how players mode weapons, mod waframes, pick warframes, and more. It's not me asking for dramatic shifts of stats or hundreds of enemies but specific additions that make players think differently.
it's not directly shifting enemy balance. It's not DE taking co op design into their own hands, it's them changing the game on the enemies side and letting us adapt how we see fit. They use the current systems in place to change the game. They don't have to make so many new systems.

Unless what you're supplying has nothing to do with the rest of this conversation, which it clearly does, I'm not seeing how it breaches off-topic territory, this entire topic and our series of responses are about ultimately the games overall balance in regards to things like Saryn, and whether we should address the Saryn end or something else, you opted for the something else, anything branching from that is still on topic. Where advertising comes in I'm unclear on, sharing ideas isn't advertising, at least not in the way the rules take issue with, which is evident since forums are literally just exchanges of ideas/thoughts. So bring it at me. Or that first half as well.

^
I'm assuming this is about the application of the rework, is a bit unclear, but yes it'd be juggling because again de still have to work on other projects alongside any development on such a massive redesign, to keep the game going. and they'd have to continue working under the guidelines of that new balance structure until the game dies, or they go another route, to which they'd juggle that. live service games are in constant development, it doesn't end until the game ends.
I'm not ignoring it, it's just not relevant to any of my inquiries, which you keep refraining from addressing interestingly enough. If there are similar problem factors they warrant the same need for treatment, but them existing does not erase the core issue. and as i've said many times, unless you can explain to me why their core impact should be preserved, it isn't a point to why change shouldn't happen.
So does CC. Limbo's Cataclysm is a defensive ability, not explicitly CC, that's a separate ability and can also exist with a nullifier around. Defensive abilities have their own interactions with nullies, but that's not relevant since the topic is still CC.
Redesigning the rest of the game is anything but direct. And having a ton of counters to her makes her weaker, and as explained before the only options to make her less viable is to bring her down to a reasonable level or bring everything up to her absurd level. You don't want the first, and I've explained before the problems with making everyone as powerful as her which you seemed unable to explain away so it has failed as an effective option.
Because she is the select area its a problem with, and is the only frame the relies so heavily on it. And no randomized elemental counters amongst a roster of other counters in a typically randomized team layout game does not pave options, if anything it'd enforce a stronger meta since you have to reach for as much blanket coverage as possible to avoid a very inconsistent balance state.
But it hasn't kept solo play in mind, or if it has you've yet to explain it. I asked how it'd work for solo play since it doesn't seem to consider it at all and you pretty much said that was unimportant.
Adding lots of rng counters isn't content, and its so immensely convoluted it wouldn't be effective in achieving an overall good balance state. I also already explained game balance is an endless loop in a live service game, no matter what, so long as de add new things to the games design things will need tuning, and that's not a bad thing. You don't just create balance in these kinds of games, you have to maintain it. Also just because you think those frames are perfectly fine doesn't make it factual, and since you've avoided multiple times to answer my questions about why the state they can achieve is okay, I'm skeptical you even believe that in earnest.
It's only in the past because the state of frames like Saryn, as explained already it could be the future easily. This is a non point.
Duplicate argument?
^
Says who? And why does it have to stay that way if its clearly a bad design?
You keeping saying it's made with holes for DE to fill in, but like you don't have even a vague outline, you have make some enemies that counter each frame, which you seemingly acknowledge isn't manageable, and that's it. And for no express reason when there is again easier solutions that can be just as if not more effective.
Again game balance is a constant task for a in development game, it is not a bandaid, it is a reality of game design, and it goes for your ideas just as mine.

Your notions to solve the game are much smaller than you claim them to be a riddled with flaws that render them more of a problem than a solution from what you've presented. Pretty words for a very messy idea.

Edited December 7, 2019 by Cubewano

BlackVortex · December 7, 2019

On 2019-12-04 at 8:34 PM, MirageKnight said:

The sheer ignorant entitlement of this post.

Just a heads up...when you installed Warframe, you willingly and legally accepted the fact that things in the game can and will change whether you like it or not. It was all there in the lengthy EULA that you probably skipped / scrolled through. Not anyone else's fault that some of you chose to ignore legal agreements because you all were in a hurry to get your gaming fix on.

TLDR: "We're letting you play OUR game, the contents of which can and will change over time and sometimes without warning. You're also not allowed to do certain things with our game. We're also not responsible for any investments you made in the game that you don't like. Don't agree to any of this? Then don't install and play our game."

Don't like certain changes? Too bad. You're allowed to offer criticism for sure, but you're certainly not entitled to your time and money back.

Your risk, your responsibility.

The stats Rebecca showed on clearly indicated that Mesa Prime and Saryn Prime were the two most heavily used Warframes among mid to high level MR players, the both of them accounting for almost a third of all Warframes used.

Ah yes, the obligatory anecdotal "I don't see a problem so clearly there isn't a problem" argument.

So I guess all those players complaining about how most high level missions tend to have a Saryn or Saryn Prime in it that winds up dominating the kill board is just talking nonsense, right?

Why do people like you insist on changing the game other people love just to accommodate your pleasure

Why don't you and people like you play another game where you are happy about how it's been played

the issues you are addressing are only issues in your eyes and people like you, apparently 80% of the game DOES NOT AGREE WITH YOU BECAUSE THEY PLAY THOSE FRAMES AND ENJOY THEMSELVES, OTHERWISE THEY WOULDN'T BE PLAYING THIS GAME

if DE starts breaking down all the frames that are popular, this is only going to go one way

all the other garbage frames will become better but the overall pleasure people have in this game goes down the drain and people will leave the garbage of a game this mess has become by then

then the income level for DE will become too low when 80% of the game leaves and that will be the death of Warframe

if the game doesn't suit your needs, go play something else and stop crying about other people dominating you in the game or play solo or with your friends so you don't have to cry here

Regarding Pablo's recent stream about saryn

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