Regarding Pablo's recent stream about saryn

[Aldain]

1 minute ago, (XB1)EternalDrk Mako said:

As a certified taco inspector I can confirm, that is a taco.

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

35 minutes ago, Aldain said:

As a certified taco inspector I can confirm, that is a taco.

verified taco confirmed 

[Cubewano]

7 hours ago, BRZZAFK said:

if warframe is Diablo then they should not have design any warframe that cant nuke. problem is simple. because nuker make all other dps warframe Inefficient and pointless. the solution will be 1.nerf all nuker to the level other dps 2.remake every dps frame into nuker 3.dev a game mode that nuker cant do only other dps frame can do.  

warframe isn't diablo though, it's still i guess meant to be a co-op shooter, which is why nukes stand out so much since they are inherently against co-op. yeah they could go the diablo route and stop caring about co-op, but they could also keep to the co-op aspects and just balance the nukes. they aren't even all that efficient they're just a lot of overkill, with the exception of solo eso and defense potentially, outside that i've yet to hear how frames like saryn bring efficiency to most other content, just excess death that shunts other people out of play. 

Edited December 10, 2019 by Cubewano

[nslay]

5 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

warframe isn't diablo though, it's still i guess meant to be a co-op shooter, which is why nukes stand out so much since they are inherently against co-op. yeah they could go the diablo route and stop caring about co-op, but they could also keep to the co-op aspects and just balance the nukes. they aren't even all that efficient they're just a lot of overkill, with the exception of solo eso and defense potentially, outside that i've yet to hear how frames like saryn bring efficiency to most other content, just excess death that shunts other people out of play. 

Warframe isn't Diablo, but it's darn well nearly identical to Diablo. I felt right at home coming from Diablo 3 (back when Blizzard announced a mobile Diablo game at their premier PC gaming conference)! And I snicker at the grind complaints.

Also, Diablo 3 does involve some co-op when pushing the ridiculously high greater rifts. But in all, it has the same problems as Warframe: Power Creep has left the normal difficulties laughably easy. And they keeping adding new levels of difficulty to address the power creep... it's really stupid. Power creep is caused by their no-nerf philosophy... buff everything so no one feels bad or notices that something is relatively nerfed.

[Hellmaker2004]

1 hour ago, 8faiNt said:

which frame is as braindead as saryn and a nuke and has the capacity to scale like saryn do?

Garuda and Gara. To name two, Both scale better.

Gara has better survivability, more damage, much much much faster scaling, offers insane damage resistance to herself and to teammates with some coordination, ok crowd control.
Downside; not as wide spread range on the damage, is somewhat reliable on teammates not to be monkeys to maximize not only on the defensive 90% Damage resistance she offers them, but to also maximize on damage.

Garuda has more mobility, better damage type, about the same survival but done differently so sometimes it is better, sometimes it is worse. Teamwide healing, self energy / health refueling Oh and much much faster scaling, not to the same degree as Gara, but it is still faster than Saryn.
Downside; Needs to be closer to targets, limited FoA between 25° to 90°, on "half" her damage kit. Scaling based on enemy level.

Those are the two i came to think of instantly, there are probably other frames as well.
One would argue that it is almost that some Warframes have strength and weaknesses when compared to eachother.

[MirageKnight]

1 hour ago, (XB1)EternalDrk Mako said:

Dammit. Now I'm hungry.

Taco Bell it is.

[8faiNt]

10 minutes ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

Garuda and Gara. To name two, Both scale better.

Gara has better survivability, more damage, much much much faster scaling, offers insane damage resistance to herself and to teammates with some coordination, ok crowd control.
Downside; not as wide spread range on the damage, is somewhat reliable on teammates not to be monkeys to maximize not only on the defensive 90% Damage resistance she offers them, but to also maximize on damage.

Garuda has more mobility, better damage type, about the same survival but done differently so sometimes it is better, sometimes it is worse. Teamwide healing, self energy / health refueling Oh and much much faster scaling, not to the same degree as Gara, but it is still faster than Saryn.
Downside; Needs to be closer to targets, limited FoA between 25° to 90°, on "half" her damage kit. Scaling based on enemy level.

Those are the two i came to think of instantly, there are probably other frames as well.
One would argue that it is almost that some Warframes have strength and weaknesses when compared to eachother.

Both of those frames aren't braindead.

[Hellmaker2004]

Acording to who, you?

Gara in solo play is braindead, her hard part is during teamplay. In solo she is more braindead than Saryn.

Garuda's main weakness is that you have to consider one more thing, the FoV of half her kit that is it.

[Hexsing]

What if they just capped her spores to 6 targets like Nyx's psychic bolts?  And when you recast it cancels off the original enemies effected and goes to the new ones.  Problem solved!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Giggle.  See what I did there?  🙂

[BRZZAFK]

7小时前 , (NSW)Sniperfox47 说:

Then you're denying yourself 98% percent of the game content. If you play this game just to grind out more Vitus essence that's a very sad existance you're left with and I'm sorry. I'll keep enjoying running spy missions, blowing up hoards of enemies, and just generally having fun with the game.

I think i will stop there since clearly we are playing different game. Those content are what veterans will do after they finished star chart.That explain the use rate of saryn and inaros. If people refuse to see the problem just to protect those superficial power fantastic in game then it's no point to argue with that. Because player already get what they want. It's actually doing a big favor for dever since they dont need to change at all.

Edited December 11, 2019 by BRZZAFK

[(XBOX)GodMasterTP]

12 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

I'm so bored of the perpetual nerf culture in Warframe, a Player vs Environment game.

I speak no hyperbole when I say PVP games have less of an enthusiastic nerf culture than this game does. Pablo going on about nerfing things when frames like Hydroid are sitting in the corner gathering dust, just shows how bad this mentality has become. Buff the bad things up instead of nerfing the already good things.

This endless cycle of nerfs is just bandaiding the broken scaling.

Nobody will hear you except a few, and that's very sad. People in this forum care more about inclusion and "democracy" of opinions than actual facts and calculations. 

There is no logical way to prove that Saryn is OP, be it by experience or by damage calculations, etc. For every guy who claims that Saryn's are "stealing his fun" there's another guy claiming that Saryn's are a blessing, because farming becomes boring very fast. 

Edited December 10, 2019 by (XB1)XG1anBl4derX

[8faiNt]

9 hours ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

Acording to who, you?

Gara in solo play is braindead, her hard part is during teamplay. In solo she is more braindead than Saryn.

Garuda's main weakness is that you have to consider one more thing, the FoV of half her kit that is it.

even if you think that they are not as braindead as saryn, they still cant nuke like saryn so I dont know why you even still going There's no such frame exist in warframe as good as saryn

[(XBOX)TheOGAshMain]

Imo, Saryn is strong because of the strong lack of a difficult end game. Saryn does actually taper off unless managed properly. Endless mission spawns are not always perfect and you can lose your spores randomly. On top of that, she is squishy unless you're constantly moving and keeping Molt active at most, it not, all times. And Miasma is basically used for the free viral procs and small stun on the cast. I am a solo player so this is how I see her. She is very strong but to me it's because her kit is wayy to powerful for the content we have at the moment. Corrosive, toxin, and viral in 1 kit. For obvious reasons its strong against mainly grineer and corrupted. She does show weakness against Corpus and Infested, besides some units. Like I said, it's just her design and purpose in our current game state. Other frames should feel like a Saryn. The flow, the synergies, simplicity, and of course the fashion(lol). Just my 2 cents on her. Maybe we should look at what makes other frames not excel as well as she does before slapping her with more changes yet again.

[TheGodofWiFi]

18 hours ago, 8faiNt said:

who is even discussing about saryn's scaling problem on this thread?

You for one thing. 

18 hours ago, 8faiNt said:

and I did say that you're in denial because you think saryn wont get nerfed because you think it is an ESO problem

How long are you going to try and put words in my mouth. I never once said Saryn won’t get nerfed, so stop pretending I did. I don’t care whether she does or not. What I care about is the issue behind all of this.

Just because I correctly point out that ESO and the game scaling as a whole is a massive issue from which problems such as this originate from, does not mean I’m in denial about Saryn getting a nerf. You’re not going to turn this into a bog-argument where people just go back and forth comparing other frames like some already are. I care about the game’s core issue which leads to nerfing.

18 hours ago, 8faiNt said:

also now I am derailing my own thread since im talking about scaling enemies and eso. so, you're partially right

It was never a derailment as the whole reason you are even talking about this ridiculous frame is due to its scaling, which relates to enemy scaling. You can keep saying they are unrelated but that doesn’t change the fact that they are. All frames and weapons work off the enemy scaling, nerfs and buffs are justified by the scaling.

You’re not going to act like this a surface level argument/problem as frame scaling is connected to enemy scaling, whether you like or not.

18 hours ago, 8faiNt said:

You have to be an actual powercreep to deny that her scaling is properly designed

See, now you’re acting like I’m some avid Saryn main who’ll defend her scaling to the last breath. 

No her scaling is not properly designed and neither is the game, which is my whole point. Its why I said your title of realistically balancing her is false in the very fact that you cannot actually balance anything in this game until the game itself has been balanced, because it isn’t and has not been for a very long time. Again, don’t try and say this is me defending Saryn because it is not. I know how poorly designed she is and I also know that this is a direct result of the games own core issue with its utterly awful enemy scaling.

Every single time I have said this you simply do not listen and try and turn it into a surface level argument of nerf vs no nerf. I’m saying DE should actually work on fixing their own damn scaling system, instead of perpetuating this endless cycle of nerfs, buffs, reworks, revisions, taking things out of the game after leaving them alone for years and claiming they were “unintentional” etc etc

Its exhausting, boring and quite frankly it makes the game less enjoyable overall. 

18 hours ago, 8faiNt said:

and no It does not mine is literally a suggestion to a new mechanic about her 1. and you're talking how scaling enemies are the problem, just because both have the word scaling in it it doesnt mean they are the same.

Actually yes it does. Scaling is a core issue with this game as I have said many times already and it is all interconnected. You can keep saying it isn’t until the stars fade, but the truth of the the matter won’t change.

The reason why Saryn is broken is because the game itself is broken. Right now you have two options; capped-scaling, which is normal and balanced in other games, or you have infinite-scaling, which is a broken powercreep but it is the only true way to deal with the broken enemy scaling of this game.

So yes, there are broken powercreep frames/weapons in this game, but nerfing them solves nothing when the game itself remains in such a broken state. The only way you can fight a broken system is with broken powercreep and until DE fixes the system that will forever be the case. There simply is no middle ground at the moment in Warframe.

Once Saryn gets nerfed, people will just move to the next best thing, which will then get nerfed as well, then another thing will get buffed so people will use that a lot, then it will be nerfed again and so on. A never ending cycle of bile, vitriol and constant avoiding of the elephant in the room; enemy scaling. 

I’m so sick of everyone dancing around the issue that births all of these powercreep problems and its a shame that people such as yourself insist on ignoring it and claiming its unrelated in favour of a surface level bile-swapping contest. 

The very nature of your post and other posts suggesting nerfs and buffs are all linked to the scaling system and they are not separate. Its a game-wide system.

Edited December 11, 2019 by TheGodofWiFi

[8faiNt]

 

1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

DE should actually work on fixing their own damn scaling system, instead of perpetuating this endless cycle of nerfs, buffs, reworks, revisions, taking things out of the game after leaving them alone for years and claiming they were “unintentional” etc etc

You do know that you're repeating yourself and making me repeat myself at some point right? I already told you that THIS is very unlikely for them to do. 

anyway whatever you think it is i lost my interest at this point

Edited December 11, 2019 by 8faiNt

[Azrael_V]

On 2019-12-10 at 11:42 AM, 8faiNt said:

Since saryn is a frame themed arround contagious spores and deadly viruses my suggesting is completly about that

Well, diseases in real life needs their host to be alive for them to stay alive if the host dies too quickly then the viruse cant spread, viruse would eat itself and eventually die out

So, what if you bring a new mechanic to saryn's scaling ability to her 1? say, after an enemy got the spore/viruse they need to stay alive for x ammount of seconds and if the required x seconds has not been completed you lose x ammount of spore from the spore pool.

or it can just be like you lose x ammount of spore for each enemy you kill with your 1

or enemies that have the spores must die with her miasma for saryn to not lose her spores or she just loses less spores when she kills with miasma 

IMO limiting her infinite scaling ability is a good way of nerfing her without making her absolutely trash(also it is realistic) and my idea is not even well thought Im sure DE can come up with something better if they want to without making her useless

Not sure how that improves Saryn in any way. When you imply that Saryn is clearing maps I have to assume you're talking about trash mobs which are cleared easily by any AOE abilities. I recently made a Kuva Lich with Saryn as the progenitor. Got the Lich up to Level 5 and I can tell you she is not OP by any stretch. Alot of these complaining and nerf threads continuously omit the mission levels they are using as examples. Seriously disingenuous if you ask me. In any case Saryn is mostly used in ESO. Why people continue to complain about that without addressing that ESO itself has major flaws is beyond me. 

[8faiNt]

23 minutes ago, Azrael_V said:

 I recently made a Kuva Lich with Saryn as the progenitor. Got the Lich up to Level 5 and I can tell you she is not OP by any stretch. 

and what should i understand from that?

[Azrael_V]

34 minutes ago, 8faiNt said:

and what should i understand from that?

My bad. I failed to mention that I do those Lvl 5 missions including vanquishing the Lich using Saryn. And no she's far from op. Try it. 

[8faiNt]

6 minutes ago, Azrael_V said:

My bad. I failed to mention that I do those Lvl 5 missions including vanquishing the Lich using Saryn. And no she's far from op. Try it. 

Trin is able to nuke level 5 liches with her 2 so is she op now?

I think you're way off

[Azrael_V]

1 minute ago, 8faiNt said:

Trin is able to nuke level 5 liches with her 2 so is she op now?

I think you're way off

Huh? What does that have to with Saryn. Can her Miasma nuke a Lvl 5 Lich?

[BlackVortex]

On 2019-12-08 at 9:01 PM, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

If 80% of your game's population is using only one or three frames out of the 40, then there is a problem. Either with the game itself, or the frame. Can you imagine ANY other mmo, fps, multiplayer game where everyone only used the same three or four characters out of the entire roster? Especially one as large as Warframe's.

apparently those 80% disagree, don't care and are enjoying themselves playing those frames

[Desolator_X]

44 minutes ago, BlackVortex said:

apparently those 80% disagree, don't care and are enjoying themselves playing those frames

This. Warframe isn't a game about balancing all frames against each other. It's a game about being super powerful and wrecking hordes of enemies... Saryn is the only frame that scales with enemies and as such does very well in ESO. On any other map she's good, but not broken. It's the same with Mesa: super powerful on (semi) static maps like (mobile)defence, bad on exterminate or maps with a lot of movement. Is Rhino broken because he's one of the best carriers in Index? of course he isn't, even though stomp rhino can clear rooms just as well as some nuker frames, no one complains.

The idea of hating on a handful of frames just because they function well in a certain game type that a lot of high level players use to farm something (focus...) doesn't mean they're broken.

[Skaleek]

Honestly, if wiping the map with Saryn every mission is your jam, then all power to you. Do the work for me. I get bored easily so i find myself switching frames daily just to stay interested.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

On 2019-12-10 at 4:42 AM, 8faiNt said:

Since saryn is a frame themed arround contagious spores and deadly viruses my suggesting is completly about that

Well, diseases in real life needs their host to be alive for them to stay alive if the host dies too quickly then the viruse cant spread, viruse would eat itself and eventually die out

So, what if you bring a new mechanic to saryn's scaling ability to her 1? say, after an enemy got the spore/viruse they need to stay alive for x ammount of seconds and if the required x seconds has not been completed you lose x ammount of spore from the spore pool.

or it can just be like you lose x ammount of spore for each enemy you kill with your 1

or enemies that have the spores must die with her miasma for saryn to not lose her spores or she just loses less spores when she kills with miasma 

IMO limiting her infinite scaling ability is a good way of nerfing her without making her absolutely trash(also it is realistic) and my idea is not even well thought Im sure DE can come up with something better if they want to without making her useless

Let me tell you the sad truth about Saryn and this advice can be applicable to most things in life.

You don't have to convince someone to do something they want to do.

That's all there is to it. You care more about the balance of the game than DE does. Don't put yourself through that stress. It's not worth the effort.

[Colyeses]

On 2019-12-10 at 12:18 PM, (PS4)NewcastleDisease said:

but the truth is: saryn isn't the only frame who can do this. 

I'm curious about that. I want to test that.

Let's start with Spores' base range, which is 16 meters. Of course, it is self-propagating, so after the initial 16 meters, it can spread farther. This ability can sustain itself and continue to autonomously expand its radius of influence. If a second target is affected, the range can extend up to 32 meters from the initial impact location, just from one secondary target.

Going alphabetically...

Ash and Atlas cannot wipe cells. No circular AoE.

Banshee: Sound Quake has a base range of 20 meters, but does not propagate through targets hit, so it's 20 meters, and no farther.

Baruuk and Chroma can't do it.

Ember can't anymore.

Equinox' Maim has a base range of 18 meters. Does not propagate through targets his, but Equinox can move while this is active. 

Excalibur can't.

Frost can freeze all targets in a radius of 15 meters, so that is shorter than spores. Frozen targets will, however, explode over a radius of 4.5 meters, so that brings the maximum distance at which he can affect targets up to 19.5. Does not propagate further than that.

Gara's Vitrify can reach a maximum radius of 11 meters, and can then explode 15 meters outwards. This means it has a maximum range of 26 meters, but does not -wipe- enemies within the initial 11 meter radius. Does not propagate further than 26 meters. 

Gauss' Thermal Sunder has a radius of 12 meters. No other stipulations attached. 

Grendel and Harrow can't.

Hildryn cannot kill with her AoE.

Hydroid is a complicated case. Barrage hits over an area of 10 meter radius, with the explosions having a 5 meter radius, so that's less than spores. The wiki is unclear over the range functionality of his ultimate, as the radius in which it can spawn tentacles is listed as 15 meters, but the range of its tentacles is not clearly denoted. If tentacles cannot reach far enough outwards, then Hydroid's ultimate has less radius than Spores.

Inaros' sandstorm has a radius of 15 meters. Scarab swarm apparently punches through a 30 meter line, afflicting all targets, which then have a radius of 5 meters to spread the condition for its remaining duration. This could mean his maximum spread range is 35 if he only hits targets with the primary line, but that's only in one direction. Keep in mind as well that while this can spread over a smaller radius, it does not sustain this effect. If a unit has only 3 seconds of Scarab Swarm left on it, then infects another target, then the new target only suffers the condition for 3 seconds. No matter how much it spreads, its effect ends after a set amount of time.

Khora's whipclaw has a 5 meter radius, Ensnare does not kill and has a 10 meter spread radius, Strangledome has a radius of 5 meters and a 10 meter grab range, totalling 15 meter radius.

Limbo's rift Surge is a complicated ability. It can spread the effect over up to 25 meters, however, this effect does literally nothing unless the target is banished from the rift. At that point, it banishes enemies in a 5 meter radius and damages them due to the crossing. Cataclysm has a 16 meter radius.

Loki's radial disarm has a range of 20 meters. Does not propagate.

Mag has a lot going for her. Magnetize explodes over 15 meter radius, Polarize has a max radius of 37.5, and explodes affected enemies over a radius of 8 meters, for a total of 55.5 meters. Crush has a radius of 18 meters.

Mesa's Peacemakers has no range limitation.

Mirage's Prism has a 30 meter range for its lasers, and the Prism itself moves, allowing it to cover a wide area. This is obstructed by level objects however, and the Prism moves in a straight line.

Nekros can't do it.

Ne Zha's 4 has a radius of 19 meters. Firewalker can explode over a 5 meter radius.

Nidus can't do it.

Nova's Molecular Prime has a radius of 35 meters, with a 10 meter explosion radius, for a maximum effect radius of 45.

Nyx' Absorb has a radius of 10 meters.

Oberon's Hallowed ground has a 15 meter radius, but only in front of him. Reckoning has a 15 meter cast radius.

Octavia's Mallet has a range of 10 meters, doubled under Amp to 20. Resonator can pick it up and move it around, creating a synergy with Amp that makes it difficult to gauge its maximum range. At all times, it only affects an area of up to 20 meters.

Revenant's Danse Macabre has a radius of 100 meters and can move. However, it cannot be directed upwards and cannot pass through terrain, I think.

Rhino's Stomp has a range of 25 meters.

Titania, Trinity and Valkyr cannot do it. 

Vauban's Tesla Nervos can wander, and shock at a 6 meter radius. Flechettes have a 10 meter target radius. Tethers grab at 20 meters, but can only grab two at a time. Photon Strike has a 5 meter radius. Vortex has a 10 meter radius. 

Volt's Discharge has a radius of 20 meters, and enemies affected will shock enemies within 8 meters, for a maximum of 28 meters.

Wukong's Defy hits a 12 meter radius. The clone will hit another 12 meter radius.

Zephyr's Tailwind has an explosion radius of 7 meters, Airburst hits 8 meters.

 

Comprehensively, there's, I think, 14 frames that do not have circular AoE damage. Of the remaining frames, seven frames have no means of matching Spores' spread radius. 

Before spreading, there are 41 - 14 - 7 = 20 frames that can affect the same radius as spores, or bigger. 

Taking the unlimited propagation into account, there's another few frames that cannot match her, because they can't move or spread indefinitely.

This leaves 7 frames: Equinox, Inaros, Mesa, Mirage, Octavia, Revenant, Vauban.

Equinox is renowned for her ability to wipe large areas.

Inaros' spread range is 5 meters. This is too small for it to spread consistently, which is why he's not regarded as a map-wiper. This is also restricted by ability duration, because it does not refresh when spreading.

Mesa is renowned for her ability to wipe large areas. She is, however, obstructed by level geometry.

Mirage's Prism is hard to control and is heavily obstructed by level geometry, which can alter its path and block its lasers. Also does not refresh itself.

Octavia's Mallet is difficult to gauge the effectiveness of due to its AI controls. She is known as a solid frame, however.

Revenant's Danse Macabre does have a massive range AND he can move while using it. However, he cannot direct his attack upwards, leaving him at a disadvantage in levels with verticality. I -think- it is also obstructed by level geometry. 

Vauban's Teslas can move around freely and hunt down targets at a great distance, but they do have a set duration after which they do not refresh themselves. They are autonomous and highly aggressive, quite effective in hunting down targets, but their damage is quite… Bad. On standard starmap levels, however, they can carve up a lot of enemies.

 

With these stipulations in mind, Saryn is probably best compared to Equinox and Mesa, and -maybe- Revenant. 3 frames out of a 41 frame list that properly compete with the map-wiping potential of Saryn's Spores, though all of them require more effort. Sadly, though, two of these are generally regarded as problems as well. Equinox' speed-run strategies are often pointed out as a low-effort-high-reward style, and Mesa is known to be able to carve through any challenge with very little resistance.

So to say that Saryn isn't the only one isn't really a defense. When you consider that the other three have very severe energy maintenance drawbacks, with all three of them relying on channelled abilities as opposed to a 25 cost 1 ability, Saryn is mixed in with a series of problems, and is also a few steps more of a problem than the others. 

Cross-cell wiping is probably reserved to only Saryn, Gara and Mag, with Gara having a very long set-up time and very high energy cost, and Mag's damage being unreliable or insufficient. 

 

TL;DR: Half the frames in the game cannot match Spores' damage influence radius, even if Spores couldn't spread more than once. Most of the remaining frames cannot compete with the infinite propagation of Spores. Those that can have weighty drawbacks attached to them. Saryn isn't the only one that can do cross-cell wipes, but she is the easiest pick for this.

 

IN REGARDS TO ESO: I've seen a lot of mention of Saryn 'only being good in ESO'. Can anyone clarify that? ESO is just survival, after all, so if Saryn works on ESO, why wouldn't she work on Survival?

Edited December 11, 2019 by Colyeses