Regarding Pablo's recent stream about saryn

[Cubewano]

1 minute ago, Diangelius said:

 It is the gameplay which demands Warframes like Saryn to be effective. If you kill slowly in ESO your Efficiency % will pathetically keep dropping and cannot be even raised.

What gameplay demands this? You can do ESO without Saryn, so what else is there? 

[FaithRose]

17 minutes ago, Xaero said:

Well, we're discussing Saryn nerf that's most likely going to happen in future. You state that at least Volt and Mirage can do the same thing, and that thing is the one of the main reasons for Saryn nerf. Using other frames as an example doesn't support your opininon on whether Saryn is too good at what she does or not, it only hints at them deserving the same treatment.

I'm still not following (not trying to be rude or anything). I still didn't say that any of them are broken. I don't feel that any of the "nuke" frames are broken. My confusion is why Saryn gets so much attention when there are frames that do just as well. But I never stated any of them are broken.

[Chicken-Biryani]

Just now, FaithRose said:

I'm still not following (not trying to be rude or anything). I still didn't say that any of them are broken. I don't feel that any of the "nuke" frames are broken. My confusion is why Saryn gets so much attention when there are frames that do just as well. But I never stated any of them are broken.

Because people are jealous of her curves. Maybe! 

[Xaero]

9 minutes ago, Diangelius said:

Like lots of people already mentioned, Saryn is not problem. It is the gameplay which demands Warframes like Saryn to be effective. If you kill slowly in ESO your Efficiency % will pathetically keep dropping and cannot be even raised.

So Saryn's (and some other frames') nuking potential is more like a crutch for a bad gamemode. If a bad gamemode is fixed, do we need that crutch?

[DarkSkysz]

4 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

Is there a particular reason you need her to be as overwhelmingly powerful as she is to function in the game? Or why as a co-op game that flavor should go before well...consideration for co-op?

Did you really asked that? Do your time worth nothing to you? Saryn can clear things fast, that is a win for the whole team. Or better, imagine saryn without her 1 and 4, do you still think she will be useful in the game? I mean...the operator can do better than her...why bother wasting formas on a frame that is trash, right? Or maybe another question, do you even play with frames like zephyr, limbo, trinity? I don't think so..why? Because they lack what the game needs the most, speed to kill things. Since no one with a healthy mind would want to waste 10 minutes in a mission if he can complete it in less than 2...and no do not come with that bs of 'complex' gameplay...wasting time is not a co-op thing.

[8faiNt]

15 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

Because she presents problems to the games overall balance and isn't compatible with a healthy co-op experience, and that state likely isn't the only enjoyable state she can be in. Is there a particular reason you need her to be as overwhelmingly powerful as she is to function in the game? Or why as a co-op game that flavor should go before well...consideration for co-op?

more like DE made such game evolves arround kill kill kill and now they are going to nerf saryn to make it less kill kill kill instead of the game requiring less kill kill kill

 

anyway I always find it funny how people beg for something to get nerfed on a pve game cough* PVE. ''Poor grineer AI gets bullied by saryn we must nerf''

Edited December 3, 2019 by 8faiNt

[Chicken-Biryani]

14 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

Because she presents problems to the games overall balance and isn't compatible with a healthy co-op experience, and that state likely isn't the only enjoyable state she can be in. Is there a particular reason you need her to be as overwhelmingly powerful as she is to function in the game? Or why as a co-op game that flavor should go before well...consideration for co-op?

Yes... Doing a 20 wave defense to farm axi relics and gain focus in 16 minutes instead of 26 minutes. And gaining my daily focus in 3 eight zone ESO runs instead of 10 runs.

Edited December 3, 2019 by --C--Nehra

[DarkSkysz]

Just now, 8faiNt said:

more like DE made such game evolves arround kill kill kill and now they are going to nerf saryn to make it less kill kill kill instead of the game requiring less kill kill kill

And stil lthere are people complaing about that lol

'oh no my bad frame, that I asked for nerfs on the past, is not good enough to kill mooooarrr than saryn. Lets nerf her tooooo!!!'. By random whiners out there.

[Cubewano]

3 minutes ago, FaithRose said:

I'm still not following (not trying to be rude or anything). I still didn't say that any of them are broken. I don't feel that any of the "nuke" frames are broken. My confusion is why Saryn gets so much attention when there are frames that do just as well. But I never stated any of them are broken.

she appears to be one of the more used frames in the game (i think in the top 3 actually as on one of pablo's streams) so that probably lends a stronger focus lens to her as she and her kit design are more frequently experienced than other nukes. she is brought up the most because she is seen and experienced the most making her kind of the nuke poster child. she's also pretty low effort so far as nukes go with the whole no los self spread giga range mechanic

[Xaero]

14 minutes ago, FaithRose said:

I'm still not following (not trying to be rude or anything). I still didn't say that any of them are broken. I don't feel that any of the "nuke" frames are broken. My confusion is why Saryn gets so much attention when there are frames that do just as well. But I never stated any of them are broken.

I think you need to re-read my answer. REGARDLESS of what you feel and think about nuking gameplay, listing frames that are able to nuke effectively does nothing to support your opininon, it just hints they all should be treated in the same way.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Xaero

[FaithRose]

1 minute ago, Xaero said:

I think you need to re-read my answer. REGARDLESS of what you feel and think about nuking gameplay, listing frames that are able to nuke effectively does nothing to support your opininon.

But it does. If you choose not to see it, it's ok. I still don't think we took the same thing away from my statement. Especially when most of it wasn't focused on Volt or Mirage. You replied as if I was saying they were broken. They're not. I added in the very beginning my thoughts on Saryn. *shrug*

[Cubewano]

2 minutes ago, --C--Nehra said:

Yes... Doing a 20 wave defense to farm axi relics and gain focus in 16 minutes instead of 26 minutes. And gaining my daily focus in 3 eight zone ESO runs instead of 10 runs.

and you're confident that requires saryn in her current state to achieve exclusively? no other frames, setups, or design changes could achieve such at a better overall state for the rest of the game? 

5 minutes ago, DarkSkysz said:

Did you really asked that? Do your time worth nothing to you? Saryn can clear things fast, that is a win for the whole team. Or better, imagine saryn without her 1 and 4, do you still think she will be useful in the game? I mean...the operator can do better than her...why bother wasting formas on a frame that is trash, right? Or maybe another question, do you even play with frames like zephyr, limbo, trinity? I don't think so..why? Because they lack what the game needs the most, speed to kill things. Since no one with a healthy mind would want to waste 10 minutes in a mission if he can complete it in less than 2...and no do not come with that bs of 'complex' gameplay...wasting time is not a co-op thing.

so you play the game exclusively to do things quickly? why do you need to do those things quickly? do you not enjoy the actual gameplay and thus wish to streamline it as much as possible? do you just like feeling efficient? how did any of that factor into sticking this specific game to achieve for that matter?  

[Chicken-Biryani]

2 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

and you're confident that requires saryn in her current state to achieve exclusively? no other frames, setups, or design changes could achieve such at a better overall state for the rest of the game? 

Yes. Being a solo player, yes. 

[Cubewano]

11 minutes ago, 8faiNt said:

more like DE made such game evolves arround kill kill kill and now they are going to nerf saryn to make it less kill kill kill instead of the game requiring less kill kill kill

 

anyway I always find it funny how people beg for something to get nerfed on a pve game cough* PVE. ''Poor grineer AI gets bullied by saryn we must nerf''

maybe they still want the game to be about killing? just not to the rate saryn does. plenty of action oriented games of great success do so with mind to the pacing of combat, and how much you can kill in an action, otherwise it would lessen the design/experience. game design is more nuanced even in pve games that just hitting things with no further elaborations. 

[Cubewano]

1 minute ago, --C--Nehra said:

Yes. Being a solo player, yes. 

so even if de literally lowered the time to completion of missions it'd still not be achievable in your mind? *or improved the focus farm experience? 

Edited December 3, 2019 by Cubewano

[Chicken-Biryani]

6 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

so you play the game exclusively to do things quickly? why do you need to do those things quickly? do you not enjoy the actual gameplay and thus wish to streamline it as much as possible? do you just like feeling efficient?

It's nothing to be ashamed of if the guy wants that. In fact it's sensible to be efficient. There is nothing enjoyable in slow gameplay for me, and it's okay to have the opposite stance. That's why I play solo, because that way I have freedom to play the way i want, and you get your freedom to play the way you want, since our playstyles wouldn't clash. 

Edited December 3, 2019 by --C--Nehra

[Chicken-Biryani]

Just now, Cubewano said:

so even if de literally lowered the time to completion of missions it'd still not be achievable in your mind? *or improved the focus farm experience? 

I will change my opinion when the changes you mention come. I am not married to saryn. But nerfing Saryn and not doing these changes is a bad bad move. 

[DarkSkysz]

6 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

and you're confident that requires saryn in her current state to achieve exclusively? no other frames, setups, or design changes could achieve such at a better overall state for the rest of the game? 

so you play the game exclusively to do things quickly? why do you need to do those things quickly? do you not enjoy the actual gameplay and thus wish to streamline it as much as possible? do you just like feeling efficient? how did any of that factor into sticking this specific game to achieve for that matter?  

 Have a look at that and tell me if you still think saryn is not a co-op frame.

[8faiNt]

1 minute ago, Cubewano said:

so you play the game exclusively to do things quickly? why do you need to do those things quickly? do you not enjoy the actual gameplay and thus wish to streamline it as much as possible? do you just like feeling efficient? how did any of that factor into sticking this specific game to achieve for that matter?  

this is such a wrong statement in a game where you farm the Opticor Vandal for over 4 hours doing the same thing.

 

[Cubewano]

1 minute ago, --C--Nehra said:

t's nothing to be ashamed of if the guy wants that. In fact it's sensible to be efficient. There is nothing enjoyable in slow gameplay for me, and it's okay to have the opposite stance. That's why I play solo, because that way u have freedom to play the way i want, and you get your freedom to play the way you want, since our playstyles wouldn't clash. 

did i say it was something to be ashamed of? people have different preferences, which is the whole point of mine asking theirs so i can get a fuller comprehension of their viewpoint. it's interesting you think the alternative to something like saryn is playing slow though, how do you determine the pace of play? by how many enemies are dead per mission? how quick the mission itself is finished? how fast you're moving or how fast you are attacking? how do you define fast gameplay? and while solo may afford you the style of play you want, that doesn't make it universal, some people like playing with others, just as some people might enjoy a different kind of pacing (even the fast kind) than you, or kinds of nuance and difficulty for said combat. gaming is very artistic, and as such is very nuanced in preferences as well. 

Just now, --C--Nehra said:

I will change my opinion when the changes you mention come. I am not married to saryn. But nerfing Saryn and not doing these changes is a bad bad move. 

so you do think other options could work then actually? 

[Cubewano]

4 minutes ago, 8faiNt said:

this is such a wrong statement in a game where you farm the Opticor Vandal for over 4 hours doing the same thing.

 

if you don't enjoy what you're doing in an optional recreational activity why are you forcing yourself to do it? 

[DarkSkysz]

11 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

so you play the game exclusively to do things quickly? why do you need to do those things quickly? do you not enjoy the actual gameplay and thus wish to streamline it as much as possible? do you just like feeling efficient? how did any of that factor into sticking this specific game to achieve for that matter?  

My time is valuable. If I can finish two missions in 5 minutes instead of only 1 in 10 minutes, then yes I prefer it. Also I don't even play with saryn, I play with ember and atlas. I said that people who ask for nerfs on a pve game are dumb, thats it.

[Cubewano]

6 hours ago, DarkSkysz said:

 Have a look at that and tell me if you still think saryn is not a co-op frame.

and this displays her co-op properties how? 

6 hours ago, DarkSkysz said:

My time is valuable. If I can finish two missions in 5 minutes instead of only 1 in 10 minutes, then yes I prefer it. Also I don't even play with saryn, I play with ember and atlas. I said that people who ask for nerfs on a pve game are dumb, thats it.

you didn't really answer any of my questions. 

[Xaero]

3 minutes ago, FaithRose said:

But it does. If you choose not to see it, it's ok. I still don't think we took the same thing away from my statement. Especially when most of it wasn't focused on Volt or Mirage. You replied as if I was saying they were broken. They're not. I added in the very beginning my thoughts on Saryn. *shrug*

I've pointed out just one thing from your first post because I don't understand why people try to use this as a reason to keep things as is when in fact it's basically asking for equal treatment. I'll give you an example.

Couple years ago Excalibur's Radial Blind didn't have line of sight mechanics. It blinded enemies through walls and obstacles. When DE decided to introduce LoS mechanics, people asked to revert the changes, and one of the popular "arguments" was Mirage's Prism not having LoS. Guess what happened next.

 

Now let's imagine DE read your first post here.

-  I personally feel Saryn needs to be left alone.

- Ok, why?

- I think ESO is a terrible game mode to compare her damage potential. I only (and rarely) see Saryn on low level or mob intensive game modes.

- But doesn't it mean the opposite? Wouldn't it be better if you could see Saryn in any gamemode on any difficulty?

- I've seen more Volts nuking ESO than anyone else and don't even get me started on what Mirage can do in there *grin*.

- So we should nerf Volt and Mirage too.

- I understand that some folks feel that Saryn is "overpowered", but I think the nerfing training is just running wild right now.

- Why do you think so?

- I'd much rather see different kinds of enemies (like nullifiers that can wipe abilities or vampire modes that can turn the spores on the teams). Make the game itself more interactive.

- Can't we both nerf nuking and make the game more interactive? Why should it be only one thing or another?

- Please let's not end up with another Ember incident.

- Ember is now better than before, what's the problem?

[8faiNt]

Just now, Cubewano said:

if you don't enjoy what you're doing in an optional recreational activity why are you forcing yourself to do it? 

Because thats not how I play.

Im a collector and a trader. I play this game to trade and to collect every item possible. While doing that I like to use my resources to my benefit while making the gameplay short and efficient.

If you are suggesting that playing slowly is fun, you're only speaking for yourself. When I play slow Im literally losing plat because time is the most important thing in this game I could ve spent my time cracking 2 or 3 relics or just farm endo or literally anything else

and I dont personally believe the way you talk is how a PVE should be played. If you are literally enjoying the current AI which is braindead and stupid you have no taste of gameplay imo. because literally everything is overpowered and kills the enemy instantly. it doesnt matter if its saryn or rhino. Gameplay itself isnt fun but being overpowered, rich, classy and cool is though I respect your style of playing slow, killing a grineer, wasting your time.