Regarding Pablo's recent stream about saryn

[Azrael_V]

29 minutes ago, SpringRocker said:

Using #1 to kill and clear? That's not the way Saryn works, you press #1, shoot, then #4, and with the right build you clear the map as long as enemies are close enough to eachother (which again, is using the right build).

She doesn't take "2 minutes" to kill a Nox, she spores the first thing she sees and presses 4 killing the Nox before anyone sees it.

EDIT: Just because she struggles to kill a level 5 lich doesn't mean she's fine. Just about everyone struggles the same.

Thats alot of conditions for her to work properly. I thought she could just land and nuke and everything dies. 

 

1 hour ago, (NSW)Sniperfox47 said:

Not the person who you're replying to, but I think you're making massive assumptions about their argument. Take Saryn, go do a level 5 lich. Try it. Solo it. It's miserable. Not because of the inability to "1 shot the lich" but because you die nigh instantly from something breathing on you wrong and get gibbed yourself randomly by nox-scorpion combos, lich throws, random bombard missiles, etc. since enemies entirely ignore your Molt in many cases.

In terms of killing with her spores? It's okayish until you hit a heavy and then you're waiting for it to kill a Nox, Bombard, or Gunner for a good 1-2 minutes.

 

If your argument is that she's OP because she can kill a Nox in 2 minutes by popping her 1, I think your argument is dumb because you can kill a Nox a lot faster just using weapons.

Saryn can kill a map of Level 100 enemies? Sure, if your condition for clear means sit and hide for 2-3 minutes while she waits for them to die off and hope that her damage doesn't decay.

You can kill the map faster using the post-nerf Atterax at that point...

This person gets what I'm saying. 

[SpringRocker]

9 minutes ago, Azrael_V said:

Lol but based on all the exaggeration on these nerf Saryn threads I would think that she should be able to. Any frame wrecks low to mid level missions but you guys harping on about Saryn ignoring that simple fact. Why is there no harping on ESO is my question. And you're the second person to ignore that part of my post. 

No one cares about ESO, everyone know that It's just going to be a Saryn spamming in the middle of the map. People only go to ESO to level gear anyway.

It's the rest of the levels in Warframe. Unless you spend 2 hours getting into a survival the sorties are going to be the only place you see higher level enemies. Even at that level Saryn can just sit and clear a full map (across multiple cells and all). When you can just press 2 buttons and kill everything in a level that's overpowered.

Unless you're willing to go 2 hours waiting in a level for enemies to scale, Saryn can wipe all enemies across the map in every level (not just ESO).

[Azrael_V]

6 minutes ago, SpringRocker said:

No one cares about ESO, everyone know that It's just going to be a Saryn spamming in the middle of the map. People only go to ESO to level gear anyway.

It's the rest of the levels in Warframe. Unless you spend 2 hours getting into a survival the sorties are going to be the only place you see higher level enemies. Even at that level Saryn can just sit and clear a full map (across multiple cells and all). When you can just press 2 buttons and kill everything in a level that's overpowered.

Unless you're willing to go 2 hours waiting in a level for enemies to scale, Saryn can wipe all enemies across the map in every level (not just ESO).

I guess you've never read the other nerf posts strongly emphasising Saryn in ESO. Someone above even pointed out that Pablo was playing ESO when he suggested the nerf. So thats that. 

2hr Survival for her abilities to falter? From my experience lvl 80 upwards her survivability issues kick in. That's with a tanky build. Its even worse against Corpus. I hardly even meet Saryns at those levels and I get why. So to say she's clearing maps on all levels is ridiculous. 

[Gurpgork]

1 hour ago, Azrael_V said:

2hr Survival for her abilities to falter? From my experience lvl 80 upwards her survivability issues kick in. That's with a tanky build. Its even worse against Corpus. I hardly even meet Saryns at those levels and I get why. So to say she's clearing maps on all levels is ridiculous. 

I think this kinda outlines why power is the wrong way to approach the conversation about Saryn. The conversation should be about good and healthy design, which is something that Saryn bitterly lacks.

Like a Warframe that destroys the whole map and automatically plays the game for 4 players under some very specific conditions, but is a very questionable choice in most other situations isn't good design. Mag used to be like this; she was death incarnate against the Corpus, but nearly useless against everything else, and DE completely overhauled her because of this (we can argue all day about whether the rework turned out to be actually good, but the point still stands that it was justified). 

So I'm just gonna come out and say that Spores should be looked at for an overhaul, not a nerf. 

[MattM01]

D.E., so you're Nerfing Saryn. Instead of making tougher content and more lore you're going to Nerf one of the most popular frames. If you're not hemorrhaging players b/c of Destiny II and lack of Content and Lore I'm sure this choice will not help. D.E. You're lost and you seem to be too arrogant to see this or see you're screwing with every step you take. You're taking 5 steps back for every step forward and when you had no competition that didn't matter, but you have lots of competition now and your blind arrogance will only spell your doom. Stop being lazy and make content instead of nerfing frames that are made for tougher content/end game. D.E. you're going to do what you want but what you can't do is continue to lose players and think you can continue as a company.

[Gurpgork]

10 minutes ago, MattM01 said:

Instead of making tougher content and more lore you're going to Nerf one of the most popular frames.

Funny thing about the 'make tougher content' argument: You can't make any content difficult if you've already given players the means to completely violate the core mechanics of the game. 

[(PSN)The_Verethragna]

Didn't Pablo say two weeks ago that what he said about Saryn was a personal opinion and not an official stance, or did I dream that?

 

People keep talking about it, so it must have been a dream.

[StinkyPygmy]

4 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

Funny thing about the 'make tougher content' argument: You can't make any content difficult if you've already given players the means to completely violate the core mechanics of the game. 

I don't 100% agree with OP but thats not strictly true in saryns case. At any rate, she isn't the problem, you don't make modes like ESO that is just glorified survival, where the whole goal is to kill as efficiently as possible, then blame the tools players use to achieve maximum kill efficiency when you literally designed things that way. You certainly don't blame said tools when its also a niche game mode that many people avoid once they have their shiny loot

 Good thing we have no confirmation on saryn being nerfed (unless i've missed something) and it was just pablo saying stuff on his personal stream.

Edited December 12, 2019 by StinkyPygmy

[(XBOX)XGN DrFeelGood]

14 minutes ago, MattM01 said:

D.E., so you're Nerfing Saryn. Instead of making tougher content and more lore you're going to Nerf one of the most popular frames. If you're not hemorrhaging players b/c of Destiny II and lack of Content and Lore I'm sure this choice will not help. D.E. You're lost and you seem to be too arrogant to see this or see you're screwing with every step you take. You're taking 5 steps back for every step forward and when you had no competition that didn't matter, but you have lots of competition now and your blind arrogance will only spell your doom. Stop being lazy and make content instead of nerfing frames that are made for tougher content/end game. D.E. you're going to do what you want but what you can't do is continue to lose players and think you can continue as a company.

You’re right. Our characters have been getting nerfed into the ground and other mechanics. Rhino after years has a technical buff from the Arcane Tanker; but never went back to his former greatness. Raids were removed because they were buggy and instead we have RailJack. On the other topic I missed the staff making Story loaded quests with a new Warframe and events with story and exclusive content to get. The community isn’t liking the dried up content either. The Railjack will have no explanation to it like Grendel and the Parazon. 

[YUNoJump]

"Warframe is dying" "nerfs bad" "DE has lost their way" "Destiny 2 is gonna kill Warframe", we might have hit Forum Bingo here with all these tired pointless complaints.

Currently Saryn is pretty much the only choice for SO and ESO. Any other choice is blatantly inferior; in fact her current state seems expressly designed for breaking SO. Having a single Warframe be the only viable option for a mission when there are dozens available isn't good design. She also isn't very engaging in SO; you press one, shoot some dudes occasionally, and then just hide in a corner.

She needs a rework just so that her identity can move away from "SO meta-god and nothing else". That does mean she will become less meta in SO, but most likely any changes will actually make her more viable in most other gamemodes.

[(XBOX)XGN DrFeelGood]

3 minutes ago, StinkyPygmy said:

I don't 100% agree with OP but thats not strictly true in saryns case. At any rate, she isn't the problem, you don't make modes like ESO that is just glorified survival, where the whole goal is to kill as efficiently as possible, then blame the tools players use to achieve maximum kill efficiency when you literally designed things that way. You certainly don't blame said tools when its also a niche game mode that many people avoid once they have their shiny loot

 Good thing we have no confirmation on saryn being nerfed (unless i've missed something) and it was just pablo saying stuff on his personal stream.

Still, Sanctuary was supposed to be a return of the dark sectors. We got vandal weapons and a character; but Clan towers and dark sector territory wars are thrown away like Raids and aren’t coming back. Also Sanctuary has still had it’s struggle with Life support in that mission; because normally survival can last without capsules.

[(XBOX)XGN DrFeelGood]

3 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

"Warframe is dying" "nerfs bad" "DE has lost their way" "Destiny 2 is gonna kill Warframe", we might have hit Forum Bingo here with all these tired pointless complaints.

Currently Saryn is pretty much the only choice for SO and ESO. Any other choice is blatantly inferior; in fact her current state seems expressly designed for breaking SO. Having a single Warframe be the only viable option for a mission when there are dozens available isn't good design. She also isn't very engaging in SO; you press one, shoot some dudes occasionally, and then just hide in a corner.

She needs a rework just so that her identity can move away from "SO meta-god and nothing else". That does mean she will become less meta in SO, but most likely any changes will actually make her more viable in most other gamemodes.

People forget spy mission and arbitration meta. People aren’t playing bingo on that.

[StinkyPygmy]

Just now, (XB1)XGN DrFeelGood said:

Still, Sanctuary was supposed to be a return of the dark sectors. We got vandal weapons and a character; but Clan towers and dark sector territory wars are thrown away like Raids and aren’t coming back. Also Sanctuary has still had it’s struggle with Life support in that mission; because normally survival can last without capsules.

I'm not sure exactly what you're getting at here. At any rate, saryn aint the problem. Poorly thought out game modes that have very predictable influences on player behaviour are. You don't nerf something because 0.1% of the games content is poorly thought out, you improve the game mode.

[(XBOX)XGN DrFeelGood]

17 hours ago, StinkyPygmy said:

I'm not sure exactly what you're getting at here. At any rate, saryn aint the problem. Poorly thought out game modes that have very predictable influences on player behaviour are. You don't nerf something because 0.1% of the games content is poorly thought out, you improve the game mode.

That’s the point. Our big and helpful ideas are being thrown out. The passion in the game isn’t there anymore. Now we’re getting reworks to force us to stay in the casuals’ boundaries and not have a meta at all anymore. It took years to throw out Void Tower keys and Raids. People got banned for being good in endless Void missions.

In all the glass celling is just being pushed lower.

[StinkyPygmy]

17 hours ago, (XB1)XGN DrFeelGood said:

That’s the point. Our big and helpful ideas are being thrown out. The passion in the game isn’t there anymore. Now we’re getting reworks to force us to stay in the casuals’ boundaries and not have a meta at all anymore. It took years to throw out Void Tower keys and Raids. People got banned for being good in endless Void missions. 

In all the glass celling is just being pushed lower.

Seems a bit over dramatic and i'm not sure where your getting all your info but its not all doom and gloom. Good news is, no confirmed nerf to saryn yet. So lets not start proclaiming WFs decline. See the same threads every year and WF is still here.

 

[(XBOX)XGN DrFeelGood]

7 minutes ago, StinkyPygmy said:

Seems a bit over dramatic and i'm not sure where your getting all your info but its not all doom and gloom. Good news is, no confirmed nerf to saryn yet. So lets not start proclaiming WFs decline. See the same threads every year and WF is still here.

 

The thesis to my point is that the game loses function over time. Things go in places that doesn’t work there and it’s original place was better for it. The game went from making sense over the years to looking like it got a over dose of Hellenism. Hellenism is to take something good and to confuse and corrupt it.

[Miyabi-sama]

47 минут назад, MattM01 сказал:

If you're not hemorrhaging players b/c of Destiny II and lack of Content and Lore I'm sure this choice will not help.

I imagine some wussie writes similar stuff in Bunjie's forums about Warframe. What an irony iron.

[Basqui]

34 minutes ago, (PS4)The_Verethragna said:

Didn't Pablo say two weeks ago that what he said about Saryn was a personal opinion and not an official stance, or did I dream that?

 

People keep talking about it, so it must have been a dream.

Why are you trying to kill the "discussion" outright? People love to whine about things that might not even happen. Saryn nerf isn't even confirmed yet.

[justin0620]

The reason why we abuse Saryn is because she is the most efficient nuke frame. If we have other nuke frame which are just as efficiewnt we will not abuse her (same applies to tank frame like Inaros.)

 

Also DE need to address the fact that what happen if we invest umbra forma on frames they have nerfed, players gonna kick themselves if they put umbra forma on Saryn.

[(NSW)Sniperfox47]

4 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

Using #1 to kill and clear? That's not the way Saryn works, you press #1, shoot, then #4, and with the right build you clear the map as long as enemies are close enough to eachother (which again, is using the right build).

She doesn't take "2 minutes" to kill a Nox, she spores the first thing she sees and presses 4 killing the Nox before anyone sees it.

EDIT: Just because she struggles to kill a level 5 lich doesn't mean she's fine. Just about everyone struggles the same.

"as long as enemies are close enough to each other" wait... What? This is Warframe... The enemies spawn in tiny clusters of 5 or 6 and then proceed to get stuck on terrain elements and split up even more. Running through a level I'm as likely to infect 2 enemies as I am to infect 10, and very very rarely get above 15 outside ESO. This is running through with an Ignis Wraith and 3 enabled to try and spread it as much as possible.

If you know some magic way to make more enemies spawn that would be incredibly helpful because we often end up tediously waiting for another 20-30 enemies to spawn after running through an exterminate mission...

I'm not sure what you mean about not killing with her 1, since 4 is a much smaller radius and doesn't spread. And yeah you use 3 and 4 to spread it and 2 for survivability but what's your point? You're still using her 1 to kill. Her 1 is the core of her kit. Without her 1 her 4 does abysmal damage and her 3 is mediocre against anything other than Corpus.

Have you fought a level 70 Nox with her? It definitely doesn't die "before anyone sees it" even if you wait for your damage to ramp up and all of it's armour to be stripped. It dies a slow and painful death while it charges you repeatedly again and again. Even a level 25 Nox in Hydroid takes longer to kill with miasma than it does to just blast it in the face with my Ignis.

Are you building her for high power strength or something? If so I have to say you deserve to kill faster because the low range makes her a miserable energy intensive chore to play.

[HelloItIsIJimbles]

Saryn is great for ESO and defense but for other game modes I don't see her being to OP. In fact I don't think I have ever seen one out DPS me outside of ESO.

[Morticoccus]

4 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

"Warframe is dying" "nerfs bad" "DE has lost their way" "Destiny 2 is gonna kill Warframe", we might have hit Forum Bingo here with all these tired pointless complaints.

Currently Saryn is pretty much the only choice for SO and ESO. Any other choice is blatantly inferior; in fact her current state seems expressly designed for breaking SO. Having a single Warframe be the only viable option for a mission when there are dozens available isn't good design. She also isn't very engaging in SO; you press one, shoot some dudes occasionally, and then just hide in a corner.

She needs a rework just so that her identity can move away from "SO meta-god and nothing else". That does mean she will become less meta in SO, but most likely any changes will actually make her more viable in most other gamemodes.

The only problem is that if she's nerfed now, DE is going to overdo it.

[XaoGarrent]

5 hours ago, Gurpgork said:

Funny thing about the 'make tougher content' argument: You can't make any content difficult if you've already given players the means to completely violate the core mechanics of the game. 

Core mechanics of the game that are broken independent of any one frame.

You're participating in a nerf cycle that wont accomplish anything. It will be one FOTM to another, and all we'll have to show for it is another gutted frame that needs to be reworked.

[Morticoccus]

5 hours ago, (XB1)XGN DrFeelGood said:

That’s the point. Our big and helpful ideas are being thrown out. The passion in the game isn’t there anymore. Now we’re getting reworks to force us to stay in the casuals’ boundaries and not have a meta at all anymore. It took years to throw out Void Tower keys and Raids. People got banned for being good in endless Void missions. Now people are getting warning points from bot accounts on the forums for encouraging the next big idea to improve the game. 

 

In all the glass celling is just being pushed lower.

Except that it's generally not the casuals who whine for nerfs in this game, it's the FOTM tryhards.

Except FOTM for them is which frame is currently "stealing" kills/DPS from them.

[Violet_Xe]

   I'm still dumbfounded at how people in this thread think she's too strong. Many players have stated plenty of times that she's got frames that rival her against low level horde content *which is where the vast majority of us play* so why is everyone complaining when everyone can get kills if they actually give a damn and try. Seriously whenever I see a saryn I'm bound to see one guy just stop moving and say "fk it I'm not getting kills" maybe because you're not trying. We are able to get kills with spores and I gave proof from an ingame screenshot and several others seem to follow the same story. You sitting down just inflates her numbers further because enemies are more likely to die to spores and not you. This game may play itself for you in multiplayer if you want but then it's not a game it's a show. Shows get boring faster then games do.

She's terrible at spy because why not use ivara, wukong, or any other useful spy frame over her.
She can't fight bosses for the life of her mostly becuase of their status immunity or stupid high health pools. This extends to orb mothers and eidolons.
She's not very helpful in survival unless it's a very VERY controlled environment like LoR's videos because life support goes everywhere.
Her damage tapers off at high level content and as stated she isn't seen anywhere in actual difficult content like 1-2 hour survivals, unless very controlled.
Even in what DE considered "hard" content in arbitrations, Saryn is just as useful as literally any other dps frame because of arb drones.
What is now considered "hard" content are the lich where saryn is often a boon to her own team killing not just the enemies, but her allies en mass. Rad sorties included.

If you really want to nerf saryn because she's super good at one game mode then so many other frames are vulnerable to nerfs.
-Ivara can go hours and hours of survival no problem even setting world records of 14 hours.
-Nova is the Goddess of Defense hyperboosting it's speed.
-Rhino is the pride of the index hoarding dozens of points at a time.
-Chroma and Mirage share warframe's version of the title Dragon Slayers, Eidolon Slayers.
-Vauban is the dark god of CC locking down entire rooms with the tap of a button.
-Frost is the best, and always was the best Defensive warframe has had to offer providing CC and protection for his team and the objective in a variety of ways.
-Inaros is the Undying God King.
-Nekros is the Loot Daddy shaking down corpses like his life depends on it.

   Do you notice something though? None of these frames are completely unrivaled in their role despite their reputation and each has their use. Rhino isn't the only index hoarder but that's his rep. Chroma literally shares his title and even warframes like ember now can add to rad damage on eidolon hunts. Vauban isn't the only CC warframe and CC has hard drawbacks. Limbo, Gara, Khora, and even gara can be considered defense alternatives to Frost and each have their own potential. Nekros may be the best loot farmer but Hydroid and Khora seemingly always by his side. Inaros may be the hardest to kill but he's got the hapanese frames on his heels. Nova is almost alone with only loki to contest her using Melee AI to speed up defense missions. Strangely enough though I see all of these warframes more consistently then Saryn outside of ESO in more missions.
   If were going to talk about that she has no drawbacks then the same can be said for the majority of these frames. So what, saryn isn't useful in spy but she's got no drawbacks. swap that. So what, frost isn't useful in spy but he's got no drawbacks. swap that. So what, Rhino isn't useful is spy but he's got no drawbacks. swap that. So what, Chroma isn't useful in spy but he's got no drawbacks. But what no there is a drawback because why use any of those frames over wu kong or ivara who speed spy like no tomorrow. The drawback is they don't have an ability to help them in that mission where others do.

   Her popularity is due to multiple golden factors. She's the most durable DPS which players look for in all frames. She's incredibly easy to learn, but much more difficult to master making her valuable to all MR levels. Her kit is flexible and has build variety making allowing her to be learned in different ways. She's got the best looks, depending on the player, and most skins skins of all female with arguably the most attractive helmets if you're into hair. And psychologically her damage numbers all over the screen hook players like us on her playstyle.
   She is not oppressive in her role she's just the best at it. She is THE ONLY warframe that's as good as she is at what she does but she has intense drawbacks which sometimes even put her teams life on the line. Just like Frost is the best at what he does but has little use elsewhere. Who cares if she's extremely good at what she does as long as she's not oppressive. She is a very specific tool with a very specific purpose which just happens to fit into what the majority of us play and that, in the end, is DE's fault for how they made the game.

   The game is what's broken and if you all say that "DE won't do that pshh, you're crazy" then why do we praise them so much? if the game is broken they should fix it should they not? Is that not the duty of the developer to seek out and address core issues of the game. If they refuse to fix a core issue why do we support them, why should we? What makes this topic worse is this megaphone her reputation seems to get as "Oppressive" or "Overpowered" when she just isn't. She FEELS powerful because that's her design philosophy.

   I know I sound like a saryn fanboy, but I really do despise her. But I hate saryn in general, not because she takes from the game. From one saryn hater to the rest, do something about her. If you REALLY hate saryn go out and kill enemies faster then her spores can spread. She can't scale her damage if there's no enemies to scale off. If all of you are doing your job, then she shouldn't ever reach stupidly high spore numbers. So stop sitting around complaining and make it your life's goal to kill enemies with spores on them.