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Regarding Pablo's recent stream about saryn


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Passing by to remind everyone that no nerf is planned. Pablo just voiced his opinion about the game, which is something he's perfectly allowed to. Don't expect a Saryn nerf anytime soon.

Would be also nice if Pablo didn't get so much slack just for voicing his opinions about balance like all of us do daily. 😞

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25 minutes ago, (XB1)Almighty Deity said:

You seem to love that word "invalidate". I wouldn't call a 10 second kill invalidation when a rifle can kill a group in 2. 

The crux of the problem is that that 10 seconds involves most of it being spent outside line of sight where no other player can really interact with the enemy unless they go out of their way to constantly run into individual spawn rooms to finish them off.

35 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

I'm also still waiting for where this 5% estimate came from, and now want to know as well where you got that Saryn was reworked because she was one of the least used frames. Or was that last two lines of response supposed to somehow explain that random number pull away? 

Just some additional tidbit of information for you. This was from Devstream 133.

Spoiler

a640a5a377209130af7eb7ba6f8547ac.jpg

I'm guessing the bigger portion is Saryn Prime since it wouldn't really make much sense for any oft he other frames with the similar color to control a sizable portion of players. Puts it closer to 10% rather than 5% in that case. Also doesn't account for game mode skewing. Chroma controls quite a notable amount but you don't really see Chroma in regular games.

Edited by RX-3DR
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4 minutes ago, RX-3DR said:

 

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a640a5a377209130af7eb7ba6f8547ac.jpg

 

Honestly, this presentation is awful. It's almost impossible for me to figure out what color belongs to what warframe, they're identical. Who holds the first place? Mesa? Loki Prime? Khora? Gauss? Nova?

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10 minutes ago, D20 said:

Passing by to remind everyone that no nerf is planned. Pablo just voiced his opinion about the game, which is something he's perfectly allowed to. Don't expect a Saryn nerf anytime soon.

Would be also nice if Pablo didn't get so much slack just for voicing his opinions about balance like all of us do daily. 😞

We need to Farm upvotes, D20. there is no better way to do that than to talk 💩 about the developers. While completely ignoring their statements of otherwise.

Edited by Kaotyke
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1 minute ago, Xaero said:

Honestly, this presentation is awful. It's almost impossible for me to figure out what color belongs to what warframe, they're identical. Who holds the first place? Mesa? Loki Prime? Khora? Gauss? Nova?

The most sizable control would likely be Mesa or Inaros. There are quite a number of pink colors but the general tone of it sits closer to either Mesa, Gauss or Inaros. It's quite a horrible chart but some amount of estimation might help with the inference.

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16 minutes ago, RX-3DR said:

Just some additional tidbit of information for you. This was from Devstream 133.

  Hide contents

a640a5a377209130af7eb7ba6f8547ac.jpg

I'm guessing the bigger portion is Saryn Prime since it wouldn't really make much sense for any oft he other frames with the similar color to control a sizable portion of players. Puts it closer to 10% rather than 5% in that case. Also doesn't account for game mode skewing. Chroma controls quite a notable amount but you don't really see Chroma in regular games.

good god that chart is painful look at much less try and decipher. thanks for lending some eyes for it because yeesh. reb you are wonderful but this chart is something out the underworld. 

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Fixed explosion range for spores sounds absolutely reasonable to me, as well as lowering the damage cap for spores. I am kinda against lowering the proc chance though. What I think could be nice though, is deleting the spores if they end up outside from affinity range. This would be a way to avoid some severe form of overkill and require the player to mind his positioning slightly more.

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48 minutes ago, (XB1)Almighty Deity said:

Let's look at their last nerf. 56% range reduction, 83% reduction to damage fall-off. One would hardly objectively call those "leaning towards lighter changes". Looking at Warframe nerfs they're typically a bit worse than "lighter changes" when they remove whole functions or cap modifiers. Funny when a meta frame like Ash turns into fodder overnight simply due to a "lighter side" nerf.

What you've just stated is either intellectually lazy or dishonest.

THANK YOU. Christ I'm tired of people acting like all DE ever does is turn a ten into a 9. No, if they nerf something they have a habit if choke slamming it into the ground and then MAYBE reacting to feedback a year later.

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8 minutes ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

THANK YOU. Christ I'm tired of people acting like all DE ever does is turn a ten into a 9. No, if they nerf something they have a habit if choke slamming it into the ground and then MAYBE reacting to feedback a year later.

Do you really want the still most used secondary in the game post nerf to be the weapon you stand by as an example of DE over nerfing?

Edited by Cubewano
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2 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

Do you really want the still most used secondary in the game post nerf to be weapon you stand by as an example of DE over nerfing?

If catchmoon was the only example that exists of DE going overboard with a nerf you might have have a point there. 

But it isnt and you dont. 

 

And even that's a bad argument to make because "it needed to be nerfed" doesn't mean they had to nerf it that hard. And even if they did they didnt have to wait like a year to do it. You know, after everyone bought rivens/forma/potatoes...

Edited by (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA
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29 minutes ago, D20 said:

Passing by to remind everyone that no nerf is planned. Pablo just voiced his opinion about the game, which is something he's perfectly allowed to. Don't expect a Saryn nerf anytime soon.

Would be also nice if Pablo didn't get so much slack just for voicing his opinions about balance like all of us do daily. 😞

The problem is saying stupid things while you are a face for the company, no matter if Pablo likes it or not he's become very much a face for the company.

A developer playing his own game and saying something "straight up needs a nerf" is a bad look, compared to softer PR speak "In my opinion Saryn needs reworking/rebalancing"

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3 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

Do you really want the still most used secondary in the game post nerf to be weapon you stand by as an example of DE over nerfing?

Unfortunately, many people think that nerfed nuking potential means the whole item nerfed into the ground.

Edited by Xaero
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4 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

good god that chart is painful look at much less try and decipher. thanks for lending some eyes for it because yeesh. reb you are wonderful but this chart is something out the underworld. 

As horrible as it is, it's better than throwing up a random 5%. At least in this graph, you have Saryn Prime, Atlas, Banshee, Oberon Prime and Rhino Prime within that chunk of maroonish color. One way to help with the inference is to consider that Primes are generally going to be more common higher up. Realistically speaking, I don't believe anyone can truthfully admit that you've seen more Rhino Prime or Oberon Prime than Saryn Prime.

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2 minutes ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

If catchmoon was the only example that exists of DE going overboard with a nerf you might have have a point there. 

But it isnt and you dont. 

It isn't an example though was sort of my point...yet you seemed pretty pumped by it as one. does that not give you at least some pause? 

Edited by Cubewano
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Pablo isnt just some guy lurking on some message board with an opinion. Hes a developer. And one who appears to have significant say over how warframes work. Given his comments it's reasonable to believe AT THE VERY LEAST hes considering it. 

And given how the last several nerfs have only been "ever so gentle, slight changes" its reasonable to be concerned if you actually like saryn, or invested in saryn.

But don't worry. DE still gets to keep all the profits from forma/potatoes/fashion people have put into their saryns regardless. 

 

I feel like I'm noticing a trend: "something" gets introduced into the game. "Something" is really really good for one reason or another. "Something" is allowed to exist in a certain way for months or even years and then DE decides that "something" was broken/overpowered the whole time and finally does something about it. After everyone has had plenty of time to invest forma/potatoes/platinum/time/money/fashion into it. And it may not be their INTENTION but what they're doing is creating a system where they are financially rewarded if they introduce something overpowered and then wait for a good long while before they deal with it. 

 

And it just seems icky to me. Let's face it whether or not you think "something" is overpowered or not less people are gonna put any plat/time/forma/potatoes into it if it isnt at least "good". 

Anticipated lousy counter argument: "but subject to change". 

Sure. They "can" change pretty much whatever they want. That doesn't mean we all have to enjoy having our pizza turned into salad because they decided it wasnt healthy enough after they sold it to us. 

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Reworks of the magnitude you want requires ALOT of time, pretty much all warframes have the potential to clean maps, it's really up to the player to make that happen, especially with weapons, so changing all of that will take time and one reason why things will remain with buffs and nerfs are the schedules

If a prime is about to be released and a rework is being done at the same time, expect buffs, same thing with deluxe skins.

DE will not anounce a clear nerf and then release a deluxe skin.

Take dethcube prime, just prior to its release the ability of the regular dethcube got a lower cooldown, more range and more damage, if it's op it will remain that way for a substantial period of time.

So all the changes you're sugesting will conflit with DE way of doing things, deluxe and primes will get in the way and if the changes must happen, they will be postponed until said primes and deluxe skins are released.

The way you're talking makes others believe you will for sure be around for the next 2 years and if you do last that long, DE will likely not cover half the warframes you mentioned, so your wishes will take likely 5 more years to actually come to fruition.

The more warframes they introduce, the bigger the gaps for the same warframe to receive changes because "other warframes may need a rework or some love aswell"

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2 hours ago, zoffmode said:

It's more like changing rides at amusement park after people buy their passes. Some people will be pissed their favorite attractions aren't as good anymore, but ultimately the goal is to make the amusement park more fun for everyone.

That being said, I'm not really happy with how DE balances either.

I mean this in the nicest way possible but I'm not interested in debating about which metaphor is most appropriate. That isnt the point. 

People invest in things they like in this game. They don't buy a pass the whole game they pick and choose what weapons and frames they want to get and put stuff like forma and potatoes into. 

I'm tired of The New Thing (tm) being introduced being really good and then getting choke slammed like a year later. 

In every game I have ever played that involves connecting to some kind of server there has been a reasonable effort by the developer to nerf/balance things quickly, if it's necessary. 

 

Ive never seen a game make a habit of waiting so long to decide "yup that's unintentional". Repeatedly. 

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I don't see Saryn much out of ESO, but on ESO it happens to see two/three Saryn in the same instance.
I use it, don't get me wrong, but when it dominates an entire portion of the game...well that's an alarm ringing: I would let her power be unchanged, but I would increased the skillcap required "to get there". The power itself is not broken, it's exactly what you would expect from a space ninja, just it's too easy to manifest (press 1 then 4 and win).

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Let's be fair here, Saryn is massively potent in her current state. Like, one of, if not the best, murder bots. I mean the sheer virulence of Spore is insane, the fact it strips armor and is further boosted by Miasma...no other warframe has the same killing potential as Saryn or even ease of use.

Like, what I imagine DE doing is making spore a toggle power, having it drain energy while active, to bring her in line with how Ember's WoF used to work. Though if they threw in "reduce range as damage increases" i would make it so if she has Toxic Lash active, melee hits would create spores on a hit enemy with no active spores on them, just to make higher damage viable.

But lookin' at the comments this thread is gonna get closed soon sadly.

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Saryn is op, nuf said. But so too are a number of other frames/weapons.

To me how this current state of nerfing is just DE being lazy rather than actually looking into balancing the game by having frames fit into a role (nuke-low DoT, AoE-mid, DPS-boss slayers, support, defense, utility-gimmick), have some frames specialize against certain enemy types and then sort out enemy scaling. Additionally add difficulty sliders so that those who enjoy a challenge can have it.

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1 minute ago, Hixlysss said:

Let's be fair here, Saryn is massively potent in her current state. Like, one of, if not the best, murder bots. I mean the sheer virulence of Spore is insane, the fact it strips armor and is further boosted by Miasma...no other warframe has the same killing potential as Saryn or even ease of use.

Like, what I imagine DE doing is making spore a toggle power, having it drain energy while active, to bring her in line with how Ember's WoF used to work. Though if they threw in "reduce range as damage increases" i would make it so if she has Toxic Lash active, melee hits would create spores on a hit enemy with no active spores on them, just to make higher damage viable.

But lookin' at the comments this thread is gonna get closed soon sadly.

1) I kind of agree that saryn is probably overpowered... yes that's a wishy washy way to state it and that's on purpose. Shes kind of a squishy frame that doesnt have any good CC. There's a fine line between trimming her cheese potential and nerfing her into the ground and with how several other nerfs have gone I'm worried they'll end up being heavy handed. I do feel like she's only that prevalent and that dominant in one game mode, ESO, and that's because of the game mode itself. 

 

2) oh I can see this thread already has one lovely visitor and I'm sure that rather than dealing with him specifically they might just lock the thread. So be it. I voiced my opinion. 

 

3) this isnt just about saryn though.

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