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Ryunokage

Nerf request: Wukong - Celestial Twin

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Requesting review of Wukong's 1st ability: Celestial Twin.

Issue:

Celestial twin when paired with certain weapon types, such as the ignis or other AoE weapons, allows for set and forget behavior in certain gametypes like VIP defense, or survival, where players can locate themselves and/or their defensive targets in isolated corners or rooms, activate celestial twin and allow the aforementioned twin to automatically engage and kill approaching enemies with an AoE weapon.

Additionally, similar load outs when employed in more active roles typically see exploiting players engaging in minimal combat, relying on their twins to deal damage without effort

Proposal:

1. Enable ammo consumption of celestial twin when employing ranged weapons, at double or triple the rate of normal consumption, to force players to at least remain mobile and active and avoid the aforementioned set and forget ability.

2. Restrict wukong from equipping certain weapon types, or otherwise impose severe penalties for using them.

 

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Might as well nerf Excal Umbra sentience passive while we’re at it. Wukong’s celestial twin AI has very poor accuracy when using certain weapons especially projectile weapons and his Celestial twin damage coverage still suffers in range and the AI’s LoS. 
 

How is the twin encourage set and forget playstyle? You need to actively cast cloudwalker and defy to keep it alive.


Celestial Twin is fine, let’s not make the monkey an F Tier frame again.

Edited by DrivaMain
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Im having a blast from ppl begging even screaming for NERF for a pve game

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Cool. Now a series of nerfing threads have started ever since the one which said Pablo going to nerf Saryn. This chained reaction is interesting.

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27 minutes ago, 8faiNt said:

Im having a blast from ppl begging even screaming for NERF for a pve game

PvE is no excuse to have some frames make all allies completely obsolete. 

With that said, I don't recall Wukong being one of those frames while playing with him many times since his rework. Although, I use him with Dread, not an AoE weapon so I haven't noticed. 

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maybe a frame shouldnt be nerfed due to a handful of guns, just a thought

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The only thing I don`t like about Celestial Twin is that it teleports to you when you get too far from it. (same with Atlas` 4th ability) You have to be near it and me personally in a md I`d like to let my clone kill enemies while ill do other things instead of it not prioritising enemies over me. At this point Vauban's 1st ability is better just for the fact that when I throw them down it goes of and does it`s own thing instead of me babysitting it and it teleporting to me. 

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The issue is not with ability, but with how weapons work with Specters:

  • Only a very limited subset of mods applies to weapons used by Specters.
  • Specters don't take self-damage, have unlimited ammo and their aim is mediocre, so using explosive weapons with increased fire rate are obvious choice.

These two points dictate how people optimize Specters, which is not limited to Celestial Twin, Excalibur Umbra or Equinox.

You know what's the funniest about this "nerf request"? I can name a non-player related AI that can "exploit" explosive weapons, and it's a widely known thing among veterans.

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34 minutes ago, Gendalph said:

The issue is not with ability, but with how weapons work with Specters:

  • Only a very limited subset of mods applies to weapons used by Specters.
  • Specters don't take self-damage, have unlimited ammo and their aim is mediocre, so using explosive weapons with increased fire rate are obvious choice.

These two points dictate how people optimize Specters, which is not limited to Celestial Twin, Excalibur Umbra or Equinox.

Valid point.

That said, i would note that spectre's have an inherent cost in terms of build requirements, and the need to farm for spectre blue prints. This at least limits the ease that spectre's can be spammed.

Wukong's celestial twin has no such investment requirements and can be readily spammed without the aforementioned investment of time and effort.

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I recommend solo/friends/invite mode if ppl start to annoy you, I do it as well from time to time. Warframe can do this for you and basicly every mission is doable in solo/friends/invite mode.

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The weapons are the issue in this case.

AoE weapons are broken which is why everyone uses them. It is an automatic increase in DPS when you already have equal or higher damage weapons that ALSO damage everyone around them. 

Mathematically, they should do lower than average damage over the damage area. They should never be able to compete with single target weapons of the same "disposition" (since DE is now using that to classify weapons). The numbers should still add up to higher dps across whatever average number of targets they choose per radius, but individual target damage should not be superior.

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1 hour ago, Ryunokage said:

Valid point.

That said, i would note that spectre's have an inherent cost in terms of build requirements, and the need to farm for spectre blue prints. This at least limits the ease that spectre's can be spammed.

Wukong's celestial twin has no such investment requirements and can be readily spammed without the aforementioned investment of time and effort.

Then allow me to ask a question: where were you when people shared AFK builds for Umbra right after Sacrifice release, featuring Astilla? When people figured out that Equinox has et another gimmick build around one of her augments?

Again, this is such an edge case, that I'd rather have DE fix Specter weapons first, and then adjust Specters themselves.

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16 hours ago, Gendalph said:

Then allow me to ask a question: where were you when people shared AFK builds for Umbra right after Sacrifice release, featuring Astilla? When people figured out that Equinox has et another gimmick build around one of her augments?

Again, this is such an edge case, that I'd rather have DE fix Specter weapons first, and then adjust Specters themselves.

I haven't run into egregious exploitation with the equinox or the umbra. The amount of abuse i've seen with regards to wukong users however is very common place.

 

Else, I would point out that equinox's augment only allows a clone lasting 12 seconds, whilst the umbra's spectre mode is dependant on a rather squishy operator remaining alive. As before, the two examples you've cited required a far greater investment of time/resources/effort then the Wukong.

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Over the years, countless players have asked for a turret for Vauban (even though Tesla already was that and could've just been buffed but w/e, RIP old Tesla).

Now Wukong has a "turret" that's actually functional and damaging enough to be worth using, and suddenly that needs to go.

*sigh*

So what if it helps players who want to be somewhat lazy and still contribute significantly to the mission,
they picked a loadout that is contributing significantly to the mission. That's ... that's a win, right there.

Like, that's so much better than one of the many useless-to-me (because Focus / Arcanes / whatnot)
Trinities I've encountered, who don't kill anything and just leech Affinity, often not even paying attention to who needs healing,
or pure tank builds (e.g. 8k+ Health Inaroseses) that just survive and don't really do anything for the Squad / mission.

Wuclone is what all summoned / converted / etc AI helpers should be: actually useful as more than just a decoy.

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On 2019-12-03 at 11:10 AM, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Wukong already got hit hard by the melee changes rendering Iron Staff virtually useless. He doesn’t need any more nerfs.

Iron Staff is nearly worthless?

What...

I haven't had any issues with it since the melee changes. Why do you think it is virtually useless?

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10 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Iron Staff is nearly worthless?

What...

I haven't had any issues with it since the melee changes. Why do you think it is virtually useless?

IIRC Iron Staff's forte before the update was stacking combo counter damage multipliers.

Now that the combo counter only applies to heavy attacks, that build's power has greatly diminished, and since you can neither use Blood Rush or the Gladiator mod set bonus for it, turning into a crit build is out of the question too.

Edited by Foefaller
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Are you like jealous or something? Why do you care so much about how other people play the game. If you hate Wukong players just abort the mission.

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56 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Iron Staff is nearly worthless?

What...

I haven't had any issues with it since the melee changes. Why do you think it is virtually useless?

It’s weak. Like genuinely weak. The loss of combo nerfed it’s damage output and it didn’t get any compensation for it. And the nerf to Condition Overload also hit it hard. The only way to get it old performance back is to have nearly 300% strength.

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1 hour ago, Foefaller said:

IIRC Iron Staff's forte before the update was stacking combo counter damage multipliers.

Now that the combo counter only applies to heavy attacks, that build's power has greatly diminished, and since you can neither use Blood Rush or the Gladiator mod set bonus for it, turning into a crit build is out of the question too.

What do you mean combo counter only works on special attacks?

From the old blood patch notes they specifically said that exalted weapons still scale with combo counter but at 25 percent rate to offset the 12x max combo multiplier (which results in 4x like before). 

Is this not how it works?

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15 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

It’s weak. Like genuinely weak. The loss of combo nerfed it’s damage output and it didn’t get any compensation for it. And the nerf to Condition Overload also hit it hard. The only way to get it old performance back is to have nearly 300% strength.

As per the old blood patch notes it didnt lose combo scaling though...

 

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2 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

As per the old blood patch notes it didnt lose combo scaling though...

 

Combo only benefits heavy attacks and blood rush. But Iron staff can’t use blood rush. So it has no benefit from combo.

Edited by (XB1)GearsMatrix301

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