Nerf request: Wukong - Celestial Twin

[Leqesai]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Combo only benefits heavy attacks and blood rush. But Iron staff can’t use blood rush. So it has no benefit from combo.

From the patch notes

ANOTHER SIDE NOTE: Abilities that use the Combo Counter (such as Ash, Atlas, etc.) will scale at 25% of their former values, to make up for the ease of building a much higher Combo Counter Multiplier. This value is pending review for balance passes. 

 

Does this mean that exalted abilities dont function the same way as activated abilities with regard to damage in the new system? I haven't tested it i just assumed that "abilities that use the combo counter" included exalted weapons that activate on ability use.

[chofranc]

They should nerf warframe specters too, they are too op with certain weapon combination because they also encourage the set and forget behavior.

I believe that AI controlled allies don't consume ammo or have almost perfect aim because that way they compensate the basic AI that they have.

Edited December 5, 2019 by chofranc

[Foefaller]

11 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

What do you mean combo counter only works on special attacks?

From the old blood patch notes they specifically said that exalted weapons still scale with combo counter but at 25 percent rate to offset the 12x max combo multiplier (which results in 4x like before). 

Is this not how it works?

For *abilities* that use the combo, ala Slash Dash, Landslide, Bladestorm, etc. Exalted weapons do not, just tested it.

*However,* I also discovered that while Exalted Weapons cannot be used for set mod bonuses, they apparently still benefit from the trick of using Helios and Deconstructor as a Gladiator mod stack stick, so you can make a Blood Rush-esque build for Wukong's Iron Staff, just have to carry Helios with you at all times.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

13 hours ago, Leqesai said:

From the patch notes

ANOTHER SIDE NOTE: Abilities that use the Combo Counter (such as Ash, Atlas, etc.) will scale at 25% of their former values, to make up for the ease of building a much higher Combo Counter Multiplier. This value is pending review for balance passes. 

That patch note is for Psuedo exalted weapons like Landslide and WhipClaw. Not actual exalted weapons.

And while you can technically use the gladiator set. It’s pretty sad that an exalted weapon NEEDS it.

Edited December 5, 2019 by (XB1)GearsMatrix301

[Silvertap]

Nooo man, we enjoy things, we don't ask for nerfs xD

Actually think like that, before, Monkey King was immortal and boring, now he is pretty mortal and fun, enjoy it, play it, be happy!

[Leqesai]

I was just doing some testing in the simulacron against lv 160 heavy gunners and primal rage did okay. It didn't wreck them but considering they are level 160 i dont think it performed poorly.

And this is without the helios gladiator mod stacking, just my regular setup.

[(XBOX)UndeadGalaxyWar]

That would be a hard no from me. The staff was nerfed with the melee update and if he loses any more power then I see no reason to use him. 

Wuclone ftw 

[Haranthus]

5 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

It’s weak. Like genuinely weak. The loss of combo nerfed it’s damage output and it didn’t get any compensation for it. And the nerf to Condition Overload also hit it hard. The only way to get it old performance back is to have nearly 300% strength.

It also has a combo that literally has Wukong fall over and take the time to stand back up before he can do anything else... WTF?!

[zakaryx]

This isn't new. Specters have always been pretty powerful in certain situations while suffering from crippling Ai while on the move.

 

 

 

People have been using this for years. Back on the old index map duality equinox was literally the best build for supporting your teams point hoarders. Specters can also dish out stupid amounts of damage while costing no energy at all.

Edited December 5, 2019 by zakaryx

[Frendh]

On 2019-12-03 at 11:30 AM, Ryunokage said:

Requesting review of Wukong's 1st ability: Celestial Twin.

 

 

This is on its own unreasonable because excalibur umbra and equinox share the same issue. If you are going to nerf it then you should in the very least be Consistent and nerf across the board.

I myself do not see the listed issues as a problem. Some frames are better at camping. And if you go afk you lose rotation rewards in some/all endless.

As far as making the Specters pick up ammo is just a really bad idea considering how often bugs are implemented and sometimes stay in game for years.  Double the ammo consumption? No amount of ammo pickups can sustain that for most weapons. Wukong specter is constantly attacking, a lot of the time attacking Walls and other obstacles. Horríble idea.

I am a wukong player, biased opinions.

10 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Iron Staff is nearly worthless?

What...

I haven't had any issues with it since the melee changes. Why do you think it is virtually useless?

You are reading it too literally. I am sure he means that the staff is nearly pointless. I main wukong and the only benefit I see with the staff is I can bring it into sorties with melee restrictions.

Normal melee weapons cost no energy and outperform a 100-130% power strength Iron Staff. I am sure you can make a powerstrength build for good damage, but the warframe itself loses a lot compared to a different frame who can just bring a normal melee.

Besides the powerstrength would be really bad for my purposes anyhow, because exalted weapons "duration" scales poorly with endless. Maintaining the energy becomes a significant problem. And it is when I reach lvl 120+ enemies that I need the extra damage.

 

Edited December 5, 2019 by Frendh

[Ryunokage]

1 hour ago, zakaryx said:

People have been using this for years. Back on the old index map duality equinox was literally the best build for supporting your teams point hoarders. Specters can also dish out stupid amounts of damage while costing no energy at all.

Duality lasts a much shorter period of time and requires more player involvement to upkeep.

Again, my suggestions are not intended to hamstring specters as much as they are intended to force a greater degree of player participation. Ammo consumption changes, for example, wouldn't reduce the power that spectres might have, only require players to actively seek out ammo drops to keep their spectres active.

1 hour ago, Frendh said:

This is on its own unreasonable because excalibur umbra and equinox share the same issue. If you are going to nerf it then you should in the very least be Consistent and nerf across the board.

I myself do not see the listed issues as a problem. Some frames are better at camping. And if you go afk you lose rotation rewards in some/all endless.

As far as making the Specters pick up ammo is just a really bad idea considering how often bugs are implemented and sometimes stay in game for years.  Double the ammo consumption? No amount of ammo pickups can sustain that for most weapons. Wukong specter is constantly attacking, a lot of the time attacking Walls and other obstacles. Horríble idea.

I am a wukong player, biased opinions.

Again my argument is that umbra and equinox require greater player involvement and are less viable to the sort of set and forget gameplay that wukong allows.

Its less a question of camping and more about whether a player can tab out or just occasionally nudge his/her movement keys from time to time to retain rewards and farm the game.

If you have a solution that can force a greater degree of player involvement whilst retaining the Celestial Twin's viability, I would be open to it.

[Frendh]

6 minutes ago, Ryunokage said:

 

If you have a solution that can force a greater degree of player involvement whilst retaining the Celestial Twin's viability, I would be open to it.

I am not saying being afk is acceptable. I am saying replacing one set of problems with a new set of problems to be unacceptable.

[zakaryx]

2 minutes ago, Ryunokage said:

Duality lasts a much shorter period of time and requires more player involvement to upkeep.

Again, my suggestions are not intended to hamstring specters as much as they are intended to force a greater degree of player participation. Ammo consumption changes,

Duality scales with duration and costs 25 energy which is negligible.

 

Ammo pickups? People would just use ammo pizzas.

I'd rather have an afk wukong that dishes out good damage than an afk limbo doing literally nothing but leech. My khora farming build literally presses 4 every 30 seconds or so up to wave 30+ something on normal missions. Wukong can't even compare.

 

[Ryunokage]

5 hours ago, Frendh said:

I am not saying being afk is acceptable. I am saying replacing one set of problems with a new set of problems to be unacceptable.

Would still like to hear what you might think as an alternative solution. 

That said, the nature of change is such that there is no such thing as a perfect solution. Changing one part of a system will have its positive and negative consequences, its a question of balancing the benefit vs cost and deciding which solution best suits the criteria set forth.

Ergo, its not realistic to expect that problems would not arise with change.

5 hours ago, zakaryx said:

Duality scales with duration and costs 25 energy which is negligible.

 

Ammo pickups? People would just use ammo pizzas.

I'd rather have an afk wukong that dishes out good damage than an afk limbo doing literally nothing but leech. My khora farming build literally presses 4 every 30 seconds or so up to wave 30+ something on normal missions. Wukong can't even compare.

 

Duality lasts 13 seconds at my last count, longer perhaps were i to use corrupted mods.

As for your latter point regarding afking players, perhaps an alternative would be to tweak gameplay encounters to require full commitment from the entire team, meaning having even a single afk leecher would lead to failure. Rather like higher difficulty strike missions in destiny 2?

[zakaryx]

5 hours ago, Ryunokage said:

tweak gameplay encounters to require full commitment from the entire team

Where are you actually running into these players? My typical games have whoever is running the most meta frame/build ends up doing 90% of the killing most the time.

 

Just because someone participate in every kill doesn't mean they're useless.

If I decide to play nekros the mesa/saryn/equinox is going to kill far more enemies than I am. But even though my damage was crap I'm spawning more enemies and making them drop more loot just by being in the game. 

The only time teamwork is even an issue is at coop doors. 

 

If someone is literally afk doing nothing just report them.

Edited December 5, 2019 by zakaryx
Phone typos

[(PSN)M82BFG]

Lol No. No nerd. I don't even play the monkey much and I say no. Seriously tho... I see no need for a nerf. The twin isn't invincible, especially at high levels. 

[Monolake]

Same thing with Umbra - AI just plays the game for you while you can chill. It's so broken that it's one of the most effective Index strats.

[Ryunokage]

12 hours ago, zakaryx said:

Where are you actually running into these players? My typical games have whoever is running the most meta frame/build ends up doing 90% of the killing most the time.

Asian server.

I get at least one afker every other game, sometimes two afkers in a game. Can't communicate with them either, possibly mainland chinese players connecting across the great firewall of china via VPNs or Proxys, if the lag you get from connecting to them, and the accents you get on voice chat, is any indication.

[Awazx]

Le 03/12/2019 à 04:30, Ryunokage a dit :

more active roles typically see exploiting players engaging in minimal combat, relying on their twins to deal damage without effort

Everything in Warframe is based on deal damage without effort.

[XaoGarrent]

On 2019-12-03 at 6:28 AM, kyori said:

Cool. Now a series of nerfing threads have started ever since the one which said Pablo going to nerf Saryn. This chained reaction is interesting.

There's blood in the water.

Nerf herders act like sharks, and are about as intelligent.

[LascarCapable]

Thread cleaned from a few off-topic answers.

[GrimSinner]

SMH, someone asking for a nerf...again.  How about DE nerfs your plat account and distributes it to those needing more plat, because, you know, no one should be too powerful or have too much of anything, right?